ghostrider
09/14/14 11:45 PM
66.74.189.38
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Though about this in another thread. Thought I would start this one to avoid threadjacking the other one more then it has already.
The comment made brought out a very large hole in the battle tech continuality of innersphere units being able to support using clan tech.
The issue I had thought up was the fact that clan equipment uses things the innersphere could not duplicate even after a hundred years of having access to the finished product.
During the clan invasion and for a time afterwards, how is it that the innersphere could repair things like clan missile launchers and cannons, without having the basic materials to do so?
They couldn't make it themselves, and for a time being, especially during the war, could not buy them to fix anything damaged.
Yet, there was never anything said about having to change out the weapon when it was damaged.
Is this a question the developers and designers never took into account?
Even just welding would be almost impossible, since the different materials would need a different process to do it. Example: Arc welder working with aluminum.
This is delicate work, not just tack welds.
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Karagin
09/15/14 06:12 AM
70.118.139.48
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Using it is one thing, keeping it running is totally different. And is it really the same tech once the IS starts making repairs to it?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
09/15/14 06:46 AM
67.49.101.109
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kinda what I was pointing out. Repairs tend to need the proper materials to make them work right. If the cannons or launchers require say titanium, but you don't have or can't make it, how do you repair a precision barrel?
Yes, sometimes using other destroyed weapons will give you the part you need, but over all, how do you keep the weapon working if you do not have the materials?
Some of the tech warriors might be able to rig something, but as a whole, units that get their clan tech damaged would either have to remove said piece or ship it to where the techs would be kept that could work on them. Doubt they would be shipped to the front lines.
Hell, even innersphere tech made by other states tended to have to be replaced because of a lack of parts.
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ghostrider
09/15/14 07:28 AM
67.49.101.109
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thinking again. Gets me into trouble.
Had a few more thoughts on the continuity of the game.
The whole tukkiyud campaign has some questions to it. When the jade falcons were making their push, they had been out of ammo and raided some comstar depots for munitions. If clan weapons need clan ammunition, how would stealing comstars supplies have helped them? Short range missiles I would say is about the only thing that might not have any issues.
Lrms would need to replace their arming mechanisms or have them all set to the clan minimums, since their launchers don't deal with that as much, but that also questions their long range. Clan launchers shoot at a flatter tragetory or so it has been written. That would mean innersphere lrms would run out of fuel.
Still have not seen an answer to cannons using the others ammo. In the trial of refusal at this point, it would seem both sides used the others ammo. That should change the way the cannons worked. I might say the gauss ammo is the same regardless.
Heat sinks is another big one. They would have to be changed semi regularly, but nothing stock was built on these lines. But using clan double sinks should not be possible without changing all the heat sinks out. They should not be compatible with both in one unit. Though the hoff raid by the dragoons should have set that 'rule' up.
Omni unit should not be able to us much of the innersphere stuff at all.
This would also imply not being able to use endosteel or ferrous fibre from the other side either. No where that I know of states this, even though they use different amount of crits and protects differently for the armor. The endosteel is just crits.
Have they changed this in the core rules?
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skiltao
09/15/14 01:33 PM
75.7.195.213
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For the most part, the Inner Sphere didn't repair or maintain clantech. (TR:3058's Avatar entry says that 50% of the DCMS' clan 'Mechs were unusable after two or three months, due to equipment failures.) You could replace damaged equipment with more salvage, get help from Wolf's Dragoons (if you're Victor or Hohiro) or, later on, get a pet Clan (Wolves-in-Exile or Nova Cats).
Clan munitions might be designed to SLDF specs, in which case ammo (or at least some types of ammo) could be shared between Clan and Inner Sphere. I don't see why Omnis couldn't use Inner Sphere stuff--the Clans have had a century to develop adaptors for SLDF-spec power feeds and data feeds.
I'm not sure what you mean about heatsinks needing to be changed regularly, or structure and armor being unusable by the other side... if the 'Mech has clan structure, it's a clan 'Mech, so that's implicit in the rules; and Inner Sphere technicians have been cutting and fitting mismatched armor for 250 years.
Quote:
Clan launchers shoot at a flatter tragetory or so it has been written. That would mean innersphere lrms would run out of fuel.
Still have not seen an answer to cannons using the others ammo. In the trial of refusal at this point, it would seem both sides used the others ammo.
Which book are these from?
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ghostrider
09/15/14 04:45 PM
67.49.101.109
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As for heatsinks, every time one of them got damaged, the innersphere would have to change out clan ones because of a lack of repair parts to fix them. I do not see the ability to mix technologies, ie have clan and innersphere double heatsinks in one unit.
The munitions was another thread that no one seemed to be able to find if you could use munitions from the other side in that war. I asked if the munitions made a difference.
I can not find the reference to the flatter firing arc for the clan lrms at this time. Half my books are still in the garage.
Now using the special armor and internal structure. The example was like an innersphere mech with ferrous fibre armor gets damage. Then they use clan ferrous armor to patch it up. This should not be allowed due to the differences in the way the armor is made. It would be akin to using normal armor, and then putting a ferrous patch on it. It just doesn't match up right.
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Cray
09/15/14 07:06 PM
67.8.171.23
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:
The issue I had thought up was the fact that clan equipment uses things the innersphere could not duplicate even after a hundred years of having access to the finished product.
That hasn't been correct for quite a while. Per MaxTech (published 2005), page 5, the Inner Sphere has been duplicating Clan technology - at astronomical prices.
Quote:
During the clan invasion and for a time afterwards, how is it that the innersphere could repair things like clan missile launchers and cannons, without having the basic materials to do so?
After 3067, there was regular trade with the Clans. Clan Diamond Shark / Sea Fox has been happy to sell some military items to the Inner Sphere.
Quote:
Is this a question the developers and designers never took into account?
It's been answered repeatedly in publications. For example, MaxTech. Also, multiple TROs discuss Inner Sphere units with Clan weapons and how they're maintained.
Quote:
Even just welding would be almost impossible, since the different materials would need a different process to do it. Example: Arc welder working with aluminum. This is delicate work, not just tack welds.
You are correct, different tools and processes would be required. That doesn't mean the Inner Sphere lacks the correct maintenance tools or training. The tools needed to repair a broken part are often simpler than the manufacturing process. In fact, most military hardware is built in line replaceable units that can have major components swapped out with simple tools - which is why a 'Mech can have entire torso sections and limbs replaced in a muddy field instead of a factory.
Did you know that any 1910s shadetree mechanic has the tools to swap out the line replaceable units in a Sniper laser designator pod? That everything from the lasers to the infrared systems to the dozens of circuit boards can be swapped out with an adjustable wrench and a few screwdrivers? The mechanic couldn't hope to repair an LRU, but he could sure as heck remove and replace an LRU.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sniper_Advanced_Targeting_Pod
The Inner Sphere also has the benefit of plenty of captured Clan technicians who can explain welding conditions, torque settings, and other details needed to repair the parts.
Maintenance of such Clan systems would be difficult. In the 3050s, I'd assume that any salvaged Clan gear would only work until it broke once, and then repairs would be nearly impossible except for the Clan-front, top-of-the-line Inner Sphere units. By the 3060s and certainly by the 3070s, the situation is changing. No one was making all-Clan units a regular part of a force, but Clan gear was definitely becoming more accessible. XTRO:Marik details some of the problems of the Inner Sphere's attempts to build and maintain Clan gear, including costly flops.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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ghostrider
09/15/14 10:39 PM
67.49.101.109
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Ok. So they updated this information in a publication not everyone knew existed with corrections to battletech. It was only a couple of years ago that I learned of it, and with most magazines, never paid attention to it.
Funny thing about 3067. That was the last tro I bought, and though I had read Clan Diamond Shark was selling to the innersphere, I never got the 'official' rules for that.
The tros I got said if it broke, they stopped using them. Stop buying them when I started running out of money, and when I got mechwarrior 3rd edition and in the first dozen pages, said 4th generation would change the structure again. Had seen more then a few that seemed to be that full of new things.
Now with a bondsman tech, I can see alot of things being maitained, but how many were taken in combat and not confiscated by the governments of the innersphere for their purposes?
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