skiltao
10/10/14 12:43 PM
108.86.36.229
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The inner layer of BattleTech armor is "usually composed of boron nitride impregnated with diamond monofilament," and (I think) there's at least one account of diamonds being mined for that purpose. Years ago, on the BattleTech forums, I proposed the existence of a naturally occurring "long chain diamond;" a silly notion, to be sure, but BattleTech does feature the occasional implausible sci-fi element.
Anyways! I do not know what circumstances would be necessary for it to occur naturally, or to occur in quantities sufficient for armor production, but it would seem such a material does exist.
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ghostrider
10/12/14 02:22 PM
75.80.234.110
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Too my knowledge it is a composite material.
The diamond monofilament I would believe is artificially made. It isn't so much diamonds cut out on long strands, since diamonds are not flexible like say even steel can be. They shatter if hit in the correct planes, which is how they are cut. Controlled breakage.
As for implausible, if you remember when star trek first came out, or even buck rogers, lasers were science fiction. No way they would be able to destroy anything like shown on tv. Carbon fiber is another could never happen item. Being stronger then steel, yet lighter and made like fiberglass hulls.
And it does not say the diamonds are not made in a laboratory. We do know they are making zirconian (not sure the name right now) that are very close to diamonds, with out being mined.
Another good example of odd things would be the reactive explosive armor. You would think it would destroy the unit it is on, but doesn't. I know, shaped charge explodes out, but still sounds like it would destroy what its on.
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Cray
10/13/14 06:36 AM
67.8.171.23
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Quote:
skiltao writes:
The inner layer of BattleTech armor is "usually composed of boron nitride impregnated with diamond monofilament," and (I think) there's at least one account of diamonds being mined for that purpose.
Natural diamonds were only an option of desperation, since they weren't really in a usable form unless you wanted a crappy, particle-reinforced cubic boron nitride. (And during the Third Succession War, people would take that option.) Tech Manual clarifies that the diamonds in 'Mech armor are artificial fibers. A method of making such fibers has been around since the 1990s - laser-assisted chemical vapor deposition. That's not necessarily the technique used in BT, but it was an existing example of how it could be done.
Quote:
Anyways! I do not know what circumstances would be necessary for it to occur naturally, or to occur in quantities sufficient for armor production, but it would seem such a material does exist.
Sure, though you'd want much larger-diameter fibers for armor reinforcement. The chemical interface between c-BN and diamond would be thicker than the nanofiber, meaning it'd dissolve into the boron nitride. That doesn't necessarily invalidate the technique if it can be scaled up - the laser-assisted CVD is a very slow means of growing diamond fibers, so alternatives might dominate the 24th Century+.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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skiltao
10/13/14 02:14 PM
75.7.192.74
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Mostly I'm just amused that the description of the material ("diamond-like nano strand") matches my flimsy ol' speculation so closely. I guess that's to be expected--as tech keeps advancing, eventually stuff's going to start matching up.
For the sake of clarity: does Tech Manual's clarification have any precedent in the books? And had diamond mining been described frequently enough, in enough detail, to definitively rule out naturally occurring fibers?
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Cray
10/13/14 06:34 PM
67.8.171.23
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Quote:
skiltao writes:
For the sake of clarity: does Tech Manual's clarification have any precedent in the books?
Tech Manual references (and in some parts borrows verbatim) descriptions of the armor from as far back as BT 2nd edition and MechWarrior 1st edition (which described the diamond as 'monofilaments'). It also uses the CBT:Companion's (MW3's companion) description that the diamond monofilament is "artificial," which appears to be the first explicit reference to the use of artificial diamond fibers. However, there were descriptions of diamond mining in earlier works...
Quote:
And had diamond mining been described frequently enough, in enough detail, to definitively rule out naturally occurring fibers?
...and the diamonds are not fibrous in those old FASA works. For example, the Star League Sourcebook gives an example of the sad state of the 3025 Inner Sphere by comparing a planet (Fellanin II) that has to dig 50km into its crust "for a few small diamonds for its armor industry," while the neighboring planet Sadalbari turns up "diamonds as big as thumbs" in gardens. Which suggests lumpy diamonds were mined, not fibrous diamonds.
Hence, Tech Manual continued to refer to the use of artificial diamond fibers. It did take the time to address the SLSB continuity burp about mined particulate diamond by describing particulate diamond as a poorman's lostech substitute for planets who had lost diamond fiber synthesis capabilities.
It seems like a pretty safe conclusion the fibers would be synthetic. Fibrous diamonds haven't been found in any of the 900 tons of diamonds mined in Earth's history through 2014, and those diamonds have been found in geologies covering many different synthesis conditions. Diamond's basic 'diamond cubic' crystal cell doesn't lend itself to fibers - it grows in cubes and lumps because it has no preferred growth direction, unlike asbestos.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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skiltao
10/22/14 04:49 PM
68.77.109.151
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900 tons of diamonds seems a paltry sample on which to base the needs of an industry 500 years more advanced and 1000 times more populous. (Or, to phrase another way, 500,000 times more demanding).
Though yeah, I agree, the diamonds do seem to be regular Earth-type diamonds. I wish the idea (that the 26th century's technique for processing 'diamond cubic' crystal into 'monofilament' was easier than other techniques for producing diamond-like fibers) were easier to swallow.
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Cray
10/22/14 06:28 PM
67.8.171.23
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Quote:
skiltao writes:
Though yeah, I agree, the diamonds do seem to be regular Earth-type diamonds. I wish the idea (that the 26th century's technique for processing 'diamond cubic' crystal into 'monofilament' was easier than other techniques for producing diamond-like fibers) were easier to swallow.
Cubic diamond isn't processed into monofilament. You probably start with some methane, propane, or propylene and excess hydrogen in a chamber; fire a laser at a bobbin; watch the diamond start building up at the focus of the laser as the hydrocarbon decomposes; and start rolling the bobbin to accumulate the fiber. Decomposition of hydrocarbons has been a staple technique of diamond synthesis for 20+ real world years.
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00595739
http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0100-40422012000700024
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S135964541200420X
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0925963594901805
Making the diamond monofilament is easy, even with 1990s technology. The trick will be making it rapidly and cheaply so a ton of armor is only 10,000 C-bills.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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skiltao
10/22/14 11:12 PM
68.77.109.151
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As of the MechWarrior 3rd Companion (which I think you had a hand in), you're right, cubic diamond isn't processed into monofilament.
Prior to the CBT:Companion, we had cubic diamonds going in one end of the manufacturing process and monofilament diamond coming out the other. This is what I'm wishing wasn't so hard to swallow.
I mean, if diamonds go into 'Mech armor, that makes a diamond-rich planet worth fighting over. The hydrocarbon method doesn't do the same thing.
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Cray
10/23/14 06:11 PM
67.8.171.23
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Quote:
skiltao writes:
Prior to the CBT:Companion, we had cubic diamonds going in one end of the manufacturing process and monofilament diamond coming out the other.
No, you didn't have that. You had one example in one book of a 3rd Succession War planet mining for diamonds for armor, but didn't state whether they were turned into filaments or not. In fact, the mining example was explicitly an example of the decrepit state of technology and trade in the 3020s.
There are no other mentions of diamond mining for armor until the Tech Manual, which returned to address the Star League SB example. Since the state of the mined diamonds in armor had never been stated in the SLSB, it was possible for Tech Manual to clarify that the natural diamonds were used in crushed particulate form without contradicting prior canon. This reinforced canon about the decrepit state of 3rd SW technology and desperate improvisations used at the time while preventing anyone from having to worry about how to turn natural diamonds into filaments.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Edited by Cray (10/23/14 06:15 PM)
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skiltao
10/24/14 04:33 PM
108.204.204.171
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I think I am conflating the SLSB reference with the Verthandi mines from Mercenary's Star. Looking now, Verthandi mined heavy metals and rare earths; and the old House sourcebooks only seem to mention industrial diamonds.
I remember reading the Star League SB example years ago but I'm having trouble relocating it now. Do you recall which section it's in?
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Cray
10/24/14 05:16 PM
97.101.96.171
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Quote:
skiltao writes:
I remember reading the Star League SB example years ago but I'm having trouble relocating it now. Do you recall which section it's in?
Somewhere between the front cover and back cover. 
Page 39, SLSB:
Anyone who says that geography doesn't have
a place in interstellar relations should be sent to work
in the diamond mines on Fellanin II. There, they have
to tunnel 50 kilometers beneath the surface and risk
inhuman conditions to extract a few small diamonds
desperately needed for the planet's armor industry.
Yet, twelve light years away, on Sadalbari, a world of
the Draconis Combine, gardeners can't sink a spade
into the ground without uncovering diamonds as big
as their thumbs.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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skiltao
10/24/14 05:35 PM
108.204.204.171
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Thanks! That paragraph is attributed to Lady Deborah Cameron though, which means it's explicitly not an example of technology and trade in the 3020s.
It's an explicit example of technology and trade in the early 2500s, and implicitly (by virtue of the paragraph following it) an example of typical raw materials used by armor industries during the Star League.
...though to be fair, it doesn't say that the diamonds become part of the final product. They might just be needed as drill bits or diamond lenses or something.
Edited by skiltao (10/24/14 05:57 PM)
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