ghostrider
10/29/14 05:13 AM
75.80.238.38
|
The subject of pulse lasers with targeting computers came up in another thread. It was a bad idea to let them be used with each other when they first came out.
But there is a few other questions I had about tc's.
If they improve the aim of direct fire weapons, wouldn't they help ultras hit with the second volley, and now with rotary cannons help them as well?
And I have not seen where the specific aiming of them changes. If the first shot hits, why not the second one?
If people want to use rapid fire as an excuse, should that not mean machine guns would be a problem with them?
And the pulse laser should not have vibration when firing as much as the ballistic weapons, but would still have some sort of movement, since it supposedly auto adjusts as it fires.
Missiles are an issue as well. Several specialty ammos should work with it, such as using streak ammo in a normal launcher. Canon rules say it can not be used in normal launchers, but I would assume is because of the lack of targeting computer in the launcher itself. Also the ability to fire lrms indirectly means they can be manipulated into other modes, and arrow iv missiles should work with it as well, though that would require a lot of them.
|
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
10/29/14 01:30 PM
172.56.7.41
|
Unless the rules have changes ultra and rotary autocannons have one to hit roll and you if you hit you roll on the missile chart to see how many shells hit.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
|
ghostrider
10/29/14 03:58 PM
75.80.238.38
|
that is the point. Why would you have to see if the other shots hit if the first one does with a targeting computer?
The computer should mean if the first shot hits, anything fired from that same weapon in that round should hit as well.
Otherwise having it increase the chance to hit should not be there.
My understanding about it means it helps to stabilize your shot. Granted it does through off the balance of the game if that is true, but there are a couple of things that weren't thought thru when they came out, such as the tc with the pulse lasers.
Who knows, maybe they wanted it that way.
|
KamikazeJohnson
10/29/14 10:02 PM
24.114.23.21
|
Quote:
ghostrider writes:
that is the point. Why would you have to see if the other shots hit if the first one does with a targeting computer?
The computer should mean if the first shot hits, anything fired from that same weapon in that round should hit as well.
Otherwise having it increase the chance to hit should not be there.
My understanding about it means it helps to stabilize your shot. Granted it does through off the balance of the game if that is true, but there are a couple of things that weren't thought thru when they came out, such as the tc with the pulse lasers.
Who knows, maybe they wanted it that way.
The Cluster Hit Roll is supposed to simulate the "scatter effect" of the weapon. The TC help you point the weapon in the right direction, but it won't tighten up the spray pattern.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
ghostrider
10/30/14 12:18 AM
75.80.238.38
|
I would think the aim function the tc allows would more then definitely help there. And hitting the center torso with the first 'volley' should mean the second one should hit something even if it is nothing but the arm or leg.
If the cannon kicks that much, then there should be more issues with the first shot hitting. The cannon does fire a volley of projectiles according to it's description. 3 to 5 shots in a burst, I believe it states.
The rotary cannon is one I do not have the info on, but would assume it fires like a vulcan machine gun.
It could be argued the energy a gauss rifle takes should draw enough power from any targeting system as to cause problems aiming it. But I guess the implications for that come from novels, and not the rules...
|
KamikazeJohnson
10/30/14 09:00 PM
72.143.232.247
|
I actually just thought up an alternative/modification to the "Cluster Hit Table" that a lot of people seem to dislike. It may serm a little cumbersome at first, but the results should feel a lot more intuitive and balanced. I'll write it up in a separate thread for convenience.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
ghostrider
10/31/14 01:18 AM
75.80.238.38
|
I would think it would involve the number needed to hit vs the number rolled.
You need an 8 and roll a 12. That should indicate a very solid hit.
While rolling an 8 when needing an 8 might be a light hit, almost a miss.
I am very curious on what your idea is.
Though a quick fix might be add the extra numbers rolled to the missiles that hit table.
Meaning you roll the 12, you add 4 to the roll on the missile that hit, or just say max missiles hit. This would definitely change people getting lucky with hitting on an 11+ and having all of the rack hit.
|
Retry
10/31/14 07:14 PM
76.7.225.145
|
There's actually some sort of alternate rule that adds a modifier to the cluster hits table depending on your margin of success. There's another rule that provides a harsh penalty to the cluster hits table when your margin of success is 0.
I often play with those on, as it makes more sense than hitting with 2 of your 6 SRMs firing at a large target 30m away while both of you are stationary because the cluster hits table doesn't like being reasonable.
|
ghostrider
11/01/14 01:27 AM
75.80.238.38
|
play with those on?
I sense it is something megamek has..
Is there something in the battletech rules that shows this, even if it is just an optional guideline?
Not saying it's bad, just want the information on where it's coming from.
I would hope there is some sort of optional or expanded rules for something like this in the next series of rules out. It does not make sense that a solid hit has the same chance of doing little damage as a shot that barely hit.
I guess a good example would be a hole blown in the middle of a unit verses just scraping paint off the armor. The better the hit, should mean better damage.
That is not saying a sniper head shot from an extreme roll such as getting a 12 when needing a 12 would not produce major results, it is saying that the solid hit should be doing more damage on average then the barely hit shots.
|
KamikazeJohnson
11/08/14 02:35 AM
50.72.218.68
|
Quote:
KamikazeJohnson writes:
I actually just thought up an alternative/modification to the "Cluster Hit Table" that a lot of people seem to dislike. It may serm a little cumbersome at first, but the results should feel a lot more intuitive and balanced. I'll write it up in a separate thread for convenience.
Just an FYI...still planning on posting this, just haven't finished laying it all out yet...the summary is somewhat bigger than I'd originally expected...
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
ghostrider
11/08/14 02:42 AM
67.49.78.45
|
yeah sure. You decided to run another line of mechs. Don't lie to us.
|
KamikazeJohnson
11/08/14 02:51 AM
50.72.218.68
|
Quote:
ghostrider writes:
yeah sure. You decided to run another line of mechs. Don't lie to us.
**Hunts madly for that damn Pinocchio emoticon**
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
|
Akalabeth
02/04/15 03:09 AM
96.49.50.102
|
Targeting computers still work with pulse weapons, they grant a -1 to hit; they just cannot make aimed shots.
TCs also help ultras hit with their second volley as well.
An UAC/5 needing an 8 to hit has 17.3% chance to hit with its second shot.
If that same weapon had a Targeting computer, it's chance to hit with the second shot would be 24%
As for why it cannot be used with aim shots. That is simply a balance issue from my understanding.
|
ghostrider
02/04/15 10:01 AM
75.80.238.47
|
Ok, could you explain where the extra 6.7% comes from?
The only way it helps with the second shot is by helping the first shot to hit. There is no additional benefits that I know of.
|
Akalabeth
02/04/15 02:15 PM
64.251.81.66
|
Quote:
ghostrider writes:
Ok, could you explain where the extra 6.7% comes from?
The only way it helps with the second shot is by helping the first shot to hit. There is no additional benefits that I know of.
I'm pointing out the fact that by helping the first shot to hit, the TC is also helping the second shot to hit.
Chance to hit on an 8 is 42%
Chance to get 2 rounds on an UAC hitting is likewise 42%
Thus hitting the second shell is 17.3% whereas hitting with only one shell is 24.3%.
Now if you have a targeting computer, the chance to hit with both the first AND second shell increases as well.
Chance of hitting with the first shell alone: 34% Chance of hitting with both 24% (Chance of missing both 42%)
Point is the Targeting computer already helps the second shot hit simply by making the overall shot hit. Helping it to hit further would be an additional benefit ONTOP of the benefit it is already receiving. And in that case why would the UAC get this additional benefit while other weapons do not?
I would rather see some sort of stablizer system that can be added on to RAC and UAC cannons in the same way that a PPC capacitator or Artemis IV is added and would grant the weapon a cluster bonus of say +2.
|
ghostrider
02/04/15 08:15 PM
75.80.238.47
|
other weapons do not fire more then one shot, with the exception of how a pulse laser works.
The munitions that hit table isn't that great for ultra shots. About 50% chance of hitting with second shot if first one hits.
The targeting computer is supposed to help keep weapons on target. Direct fire weapons benefit from it, yet the ultra just gains the initial strike. I would think the computer would give you a better chance to keep the ultra on the same target. Even if it is just a little more.
After all, the ultra seems to react like a larger machine gun. Yes, weight changes alot, as well as the kick.
I am not saying an auto hit with the second shot, but atleast improve the chances some.
|
Retry
02/04/15 08:24 PM
76.7.225.145
|
Many weapons fire more than one shot. In-game, however, most of them are treated as one-shot, probably because it'd be annoying to roll twenty times to see how many .1 damage shells of an AC/2 connect and where in a 10 second, single turn time frame.
As with the ultra autocannons, I just treat the second shot of the autocannon as just that: a second shot. Roll for it to see if it hits, just like the first one. I've had no balance issue with this unofficial rule, and strongly prefer it to the normal cluster hits system.
At least, makes more sense to me than having your second shot somehow missing, ~50% of the time, a point blank target while neither of you are moving for an arbitrary
Take a situation where the autocannon has a 2 to-hit. Fired in ultra-mode, the second shell has a 50% chance to miss, regardless if a targeting computer is present or not. In this situation, there is absolutely no benefit provided by a theoretical targeting computer for the second shell, so I'd argue that targeting computers don't actually provide any direct benefits to the second shell of a UAC.
|
Akalabeth
02/04/15 08:45 PM
64.251.81.66
|
Quote:
Take a situation where the autocannon has a 2 to-hit. Fired in ultra-mode, the second shell has a 50% chance to miss, regardless if a targeting computer is present or not. In this situation, there is absolutely no benefit provided by a theoretical targeting computer for the second shell, so I'd argue that targeting computers don't actually provide any direct benefits to the second shell of a UAC.
If a mech needs a 2 to hit the Targeting Computer would be useless regardless of the weapon being fired unless the player is making aimed shots.
Quote:
ghostrider writes:
The munitions that hit table isn't that great for ultra shots. About 50% chance of hitting with second shot if first one hits.
That's really a problem with the cluster table. The 2 table seems completely incongruous with the rest of the cluster column results.
Edited by Akalabeth (02/04/15 08:47 PM)
|
ghostrider
02/04/15 09:44 PM
75.80.238.47
|
Now I like the idea of rolling twice to see if the shots hit or not. It does make more sense then firing like an mg and missing with half the shots despite some of the situations.
So I have this correct, you fire twice. The first shot misses, but the second shot hits, you hit with the second one even if the first one misses? Just like firing 2 weapons?
Now does a targeting computer add to the second fire or just the first?
And honestly, if an lb 20x hits, and you hit with all 20 shots, you roll 20 times to see where each shot hits. This can slow down the game alot..
The 2 column was done back when only the srm 2 was available. They didn't make a new one when they came out with the lbx, ultras, or mrms. Now with other weapons systems like the atm or other missile systems, it changes alot of things.
|
Retry
02/04/15 09:45 PM
76.7.225.145
|
Exactly. You can treat the autocannon as if you were firing two instead.
|
Akalabeth
02/04/15 10:56 PM
64.251.81.66
|
You'd still need to roll the attacks separately or with different coloured dice in case the first shot jams.
|