Alternate Cluster Hit Table Rules

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KamikazeJohnson
11/21/14 10:41 PM
207.161.146.219

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Here it is, at long last

This came up in a discussion on Targeting Computers, and whether they should affect Cluster Hit Table results. The key point is that the difficulty of the shot and the degree of scatter effect should be somewhat related.

Here are the concerns that I tried to address with these rules:

1) A difficult shot should be more likely to result in, say, 6/20 missiles hitting than an easy shot. A point-blank shot from an elite gunner with an SRM on an immobile target (hit on a -3 or higher) should easily hit with most of the missiles.
2) UACs firing in Ultra mode should have a better chance of getting at least a single hit than a regular AC (or a single AC shot).
3) Greater # of missiles fired = larger spread = better chance of hitting (but by regular BT rules that doesn't happen).

Here's my proposal: incorporate the Cluster Hit Table into the To-Hit roll. Take the current Cluster Hit Table, but instead of charting results of "2" to "12", chart "-5" to "+5". So if I fire an LRM 15 and roll exactly the required number, I would hit with 9 missiles. If I rolled "12" when I needed "8", I would hit with all 15.

For balance, this would probably require some tweaks to the Cluster Hits Table, as well as some modifiers for different weapon types. Perhaps a -1 To-Hit bonus for all ACs, in addition to the -1 bonus for LB-X Cluster munitions. I would expect to see some "0"s on the cluster Hit Table, particularly in the "2" column.

So...as an example, I fire an LRM 20 with all modifiers resulting in a to-hit number of 14. Under current rules, that would be an automatic miss, but under this system, a roll of "10" might result in 3 missiles finding the target, while an LRM 5 under the same circumstance might need a "11" to hit with a single missile.

This would also work with Infantry...as the rules stand, given a "prime shot", 1 full-strength Platoon of Rifle Infantry would average about 7 damage, yet 30 Platoons each reduced to 1 man would average 30 damage...this should help even that out.

Thought? Comments?
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ghostrider
11/22/14 12:22 AM
67.49.78.45

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I don't mind some randomness in the system. I was just saying that a better hit should give more consistant damage, not like it does now.
From the looks of it, if you had rolled 4 higher then the number needed, it would automatically hit with all the missiles. I would say it should be more prevalent then the current tables show, possibly removing the numbers of missiles that hit in the low end. Like possibly adding the number over the number needed to hit to the actual missile connection tables.
But in some cases that still would not boost the numbers sufficiently.

And with streaks being able to hit will all missiles if it locks, why can't they do that with lrms?

Now this should also transfer over to the cluster ammo for lbx cannons as well.
Thinking about it, the whole damage system seems a little tweeked out. I would think the shots fired would spread out in the same or very similar cluster shape with each shot.

I like the work you did with the above 12 numbers, but that puts other weapons as a serious disadvantage, since they could not hope to compete. Granted, I can see ballistic weapons having the ability to be adjusted a little high when firing verse the line of sight fire weapons. The implied concept here is that something like a non artillery cannon is not fired at a 45 degree angle. Not even close.
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
11/22/14 09:00 PM
172.56.7.239

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There is still the problem of its against the rules use a targeting computer with any missile system.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

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ghostrider
11/22/14 09:22 PM
67.49.78.45

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Main thing with the targeting computer was for ultra cannons and allowing a better chance for both shots to hit. The missiles came up, but is NOT tied to the target comp. It was something that kinda goes along with this idea, but is separate as well.
Though at it's base form, the streak system is a targeting system for srms. Maybe more weight into something that could be used for lrms, Maybe a limit to the size of launcher like lrm 5 or 10. Giving the technology they should have, it is very possible to do, though extremely expensive. They can do it with arrow missiles, though I am not sure if the capital missiles have anything like it. I think there is semi guided missiles available.

The idea seems to have lead to the increased number of munitions to hit on the number of munitions table on a better then needed to hit roll. Any thoughts on this part of the conversation?
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
11/22/14 11:44 PM
172.56.6.227

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If I was going to change it I would have the number rolled on the needed to hit number as a modifier on the munitions table.

Each number that it failed by on the to hit roll you would subtract four from the roll on the munitions table. So even if you missed the to hit roll you might just hit with a couple missiles anyways if you rolled good on the munitions table. If the modified number is a one, zero or into the negative no missiles hit. For example if you needed to hit with a 12 and you rolled a 10 you would subtract 8 from the munitions table roll. that would mean you would only hit with a roll of 10, 11 or 12 on the munitions table.

If you rolled the exact number you needed or one above the to hit number there would be no modifier on the munitions table.

If you rolled two or more above the number you needed to hit than the difference would be a positive modifier on the munitions table. For example if you needed a 3 to hit and you got a 12 that would give you a +8 on the munitions table.

Under this a natural 2 is still a full miss no matter what your modified to hit roll was.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
ghostrider
11/23/14 11:01 AM
67.49.78.45

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I don't know about anyone else, but I am a bit leery about allowing some munitions to hit if you miss the to hit number. But I that is just me.

Now is this just for missiles or would it also include cluster munitions for the lbx cannon?
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
11/23/14 04:20 PM
172.56.10.59

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I was just throwing an idea out. Its like shooting a scatter gun versus a rifle its easier to hit something with a scatter gun than a rifle so I took that in consideration.

If some one wants to play with it they can decide what can use it and what can not.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
ghostrider
11/23/14 08:37 PM
67.49.78.45

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I guess it might just come down to line of sight. If you can see it, you should be able to hit it no matter what or how many things like woods is in the way. In range, something should be able to hit.

Guess they tried to cover then with extreme ranges. Still would like to see if anyone has any more ideas.
Not saying the possible to hit if you just barely missed the to hit number is bad. It does bring out some more flavor to a game.
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
11/23/14 09:38 PM
208.54.40.194

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A lot of people don't like missiles because of the few missile that do hit because of the missile chart. If my idea was used I be a lot of people would use missiles because of the possible chance of hitting with a few missiles even with a long shot to hit roll.

I have a question for the people here. If my idea was cannon use of missiles would you be using a lot more mechs with missile launchers? I am not asking if it should be a cannon rule, I am just asking would you be using a lot more mechs that have missiles in their design.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
ghostrider
11/26/14 01:39 AM
67.49.78.45

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The chance to hit with anything with a roll less then what is needed would increase the amount of launchers used in the game.

You know maybe having a penalty for rolling under the number needed, could by used to reduce the amount that hits, similar to what has been suggested for a roll above the minimum.
It would definitely solve some of the issues with missiles.
ghostrider
05/27/15 11:51 AM
76.89.120.217

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Not sure if this is the place for this question, but figured it dealt with cluster ammunition.

What are the rules for targeting a specific point on a mech, weither it is shut down or using a targeting computer and cluster munitions?
The companion question is, if you target the arms or the legs, should it be possible to hit with all the cluster shot even if you roll a 12 on the munitions that hit table?

I would think not, just because the spread of the shot would work against you in this situation. Or it should be extremely rarer then what the tables are set up for.

Also with the utlra shots. Say you roll the hit on the target area, and get the double shot hit. Does the second shot roll for its own location?
I know this one was asked in a different form, but I don't think it was specific. I think the other was just if it hits with the targeting comps assistance, not the specific targeting abilities.
Drasnighta
05/27/15 12:20 PM
198.53.98.65

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Been a while since I used either, being that I've been stuck in a 3025 Campaign


1) Cluster Munitions were always incompatible with Targeting Computers. Can't Aim 'em.

2) With Ultra, if you succeed in your Targeted Shot, and Both Shots Hit, then Both Shots hit the Targeted Area...
CEO Heretic BattleMechs.
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