ghostrider
12/13/14 08:22 PM
67.49.78.45
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Since the original post was getting off topic, I thought to make one dealing with it.
Not sure if they changed the way they are handled, or just voided it out, but as Karagin coonfirmed, the original 3050 tro had in it a statement that claims the clans had worked on the normal non er or pusle style weapons that removed a ton and a critical space from weapons to a minimum of 1.
Since there was no tro dealing with the clans updating their old star league designs with the newer weapons, I would assume they killed that line of thinking. This is a shame, since it would make sense they had some advancements in such before the full changes to the weapons.
But thinking about it now, the clans would have had the basis for advanced weapons since alot of the designs used by the innersphere suffered from losing the advance weapons, and they would not have had to restart from scratch like the innersphere did.
The developers of battle tech could have made a tro of second line and garrison mechs using this idea. Imagine a normal rifleman or an archer that didn't over heat because they had some extra heat sinks. Or maybe something like an extra srm pack on a warhammer.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
12/14/14 03:59 AM
208.54.32.148
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It makes more sense that the upgrading of standard tech was scraped for the more advanced tech. Why wast man power having two plants making standard tech and advance tech when you just upgrade production at one plant to make advance tech. Making low tech and advance tech is wasteful and as such unClan like.
The Clans built plants making standard tech. Then retooled the plants for upgraded standard tech. Then when advance tech was developed the plants where retooled again for advance tech. That would be quite Clan like.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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ghostrider
12/14/14 05:43 AM
67.49.78.45
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Simple research into the advance tech could very well have produced the side effect of advancing normal weapons. Looking for a lighter erlaser could very well have given them the idea of a lighter housing for a normal laser, or maybe a smaller crystal being used.
Look at how hard drives have advanced over the since they first came out, or even the ram chips in the system. I have one of the original hard drives for a commadore 64. It is comparable to the size of a normal tower system and it was a whole megabite drive.
Now I can see them trying to upgrade the low end tech, because, like you said, they would not want to waste materials. I seriously doubt they would use the best weapons they had to defend an installation, and even with the bachall, you would not leave it completely defenseless. They do have pirates as well as some native wildlife that was hostile. Not enough units to go around, especially when they first started. Upgrading would be useless with said defenses as more honorable methods came about.
There is also the chance that some of the research done was star league research, and has not been found in the innersphere yet. It could very well have been in the experimental phases when it collapsed.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
12/15/14 01:13 PM
172.56.11.166
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It still comes down to wasting a factory on the effort of making subquality weapon systems which is unClan like.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Karagin
12/15/14 06:07 PM
70.118.139.48
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You are missing the point, these weapons would be found on mechs that have been mothballed PRIOR to the advent of the Omnis taking front stage for the Clans. Also these smaller lighter weapons would be the fore runners of the ER and Pulse weapons and the advanced ACs we see the Clans using in their Invasion. Now the Clans don't like to waste things, so it is possible they would have a some factories making spares, not that likely but still possible.
Given that the weapons would be found on mechs that are at the bottom of the rungs for even garrison mechs, they are not going to be seen in daily use if at all, so given that unless you are fighting battles during the Pentagon Wars or right after that time frame, then you are not likely to even run across these.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
12/15/14 07:46 PM
67.49.78.45
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As I stated, they would be used in defensive structures, since it would be wasteful to have the advanced stuff in them. Those structures would not be left defenseless, but would not have any mech units assigned to them either. Solamha (spelling?) might be assigned, or maybe not. But they would get something to protect them with.
And even today outdated weapons are stored for the unlikely event they may be needed. A decent example of that is the old ball and cap slug throwers. Most are collectables now, but they tend to still work.
I believe we have some world war one weapons stored in areas around the united states. front loaded muskets and the like. I am sure other countries still have their versions as well. Hell, some of that crap is being sold to the third world countries.
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ghostrider
12/15/14 08:03 PM
67.49.78.45
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Is there somewhere I can find the timeline for when the clans made the weapon advancements?
It may solve some of the problems with the clans use of the smaller, lighter normal weapons use, since the advancements of star league designs to the current clan ones might solve why the clans would have looked into the advancement of what is not considered obsolete.
I would agree that they would not be working on advancing the normal weapons at this time.
Granted, the developers probably threw the whole thing out, with several other things that screws with future plans.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
12/15/14 09:16 PM
172.56.31.124
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Quote:
I believe we have some world war one weapons stored in areas around the united states. front loaded muskets and the like. I am sure other countries still have their versions as well. Hell, some of that crap is being sold to the third world countries.
In privet collections that is about it. No government uses WWl tech. You would be very hard pressed to find anyone mothballing much WWll tech now. Even backwater third world countries have cold war weapons thanks to the USSR dumping as much weapons as they could onto the world market. After three hundred years I doubt that the Clans would have bothered to mothball valuable mechs for that long. Either it was destroyed in a battle or it was melted down and recycled into new tech because it was just so worn out it cost more in resources to keep it running than to dump it into the recycle bin. Unlike the Enter Sphere the Clans did not pack mechs in a far off warehouse in the middle of nowhere and forgot about them for centuries. Nor did they keep really old mechs running because there was just no replacement mechs to be had.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Karagin
12/15/14 09:49 PM
70.118.139.48
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Bolt action rifles, Maxim MG and other things are still in use. I point you to place like Afghanistan as well as parts of Africa. If it works and can kill your enemies it is still a weapon. State of the art is not always needed.
WW2 tech is still in use, weapons turn up all the time, in fact the MG3 used by the Germans Army of today is nothing more then a rechammered MG42 of WW2 fame...Mauser Rifles are still found in use in many nations of Africa and parts of the Mid-East again the stuff still works so those who have it use them. M1 rifles are still in use, in fact I am buying one from Civilian Marksmanship Program here in the US, so it's not hard to find the WW2 tech just have to look for it.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
12/16/14 12:25 AM
67.49.78.45
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Now it's time to add in another reason why the clans would not melt down the stuff like most people would think.
Star league stuff is like holy relics to the clansmen. Having mechs, even the destroyed ones like general Kerensky's Orion would never be melted down no matter what it cost to keep them in a controlled environmental chamber.
Now weither you want to add in the fluff to the conversation, they still have brian caches that are undiscovered in clan space. If not, then that's ok too.
Hell, they still use the old mech for the police garrisons. I am definitely sure some of them are in the pirate units that still haunt clan space.
But this does go back to IF they still have it in the game. Since the updates seem to have left it out, I doubt it.
Edited by ghostrider (12/16/14 12:26 AM)
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
12/16/14 07:54 AM
172.56.16.112
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Quote:
Karagin writes:
Bolt action rifles, Maxim MG and other things are still in use. I point you to place like Afghanistan as well as parts of Africa. If it works and can kill your enemies it is still a weapon. State of the art is not always needed.
WW2 tech is still in use, weapons turn up all the time, in fact the MG3 used by the Germans Army of today is nothing more then a rechammered MG42 of WW2 fame...Mauser Rifles are still found in use in many nations of Africa and parts of the Mid-East again the stuff still works so those who have it use them. M1 rifles are still in use, in fact I am buying one from Civilian Marksmanship Program here in the US, so it's not hard to find the WW2 tech just have to look for it.
We are talking of a governments (the Clans) active war arsenal not a collectors privet collection of weapons, a war museums collection, or (pirates, outlaws, partisans, or any other unofficial governments armed group). If the Clans have any Enter Sphere level combat technology its in some war museum and not kept up in running condition for active combat.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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Karagin
12/16/14 01:49 PM
70.118.139.48
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No we are talking about groups using older weapons, I pointed out it is not uncommon for some to still use older weapons even when new ones can be bought. Also following the logic of your last comment, if the Clans had no use of or for the older Star League tech or 3025 tech of the Inner Sphere, then how did they out fit the Dragoons with older mechs in the manner they did? The Dragoons showed up with spare parts, working SL mechs of more Common origin, aka Archers, Riflemen, Warhammers etc...and some odd ones that had not been seen around the IS since the end of the 1st Succession War, like the Hornet and Falcon and then some really odd ones like the Shogun and the Annihilator, yet all of these would be considered second line or even third line items for the Clans, and again as you said in a Museum, so I think they did have a lot of older tech in storage and keep it in case they needed to replace combat loses fast and in a hurry.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
12/16/14 02:17 PM
67.49.78.45
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Going with the way the clans seem to be set up, they would not even allow newer mechs to fight bandits. It would be disgraceful. But Karagin does have a good point. If they destroyed all the older stuff, the whole inner sphere recon idea would never have been able to come about.
And even then, the fluff of the wolves said they had to leave some stuff in deep space because it was still to advanced for the inner sphere at that time.
I guess a good example would be the african nations helping the US. We would have to supply arms to them, but doubt they would get an abrahms. They would likely get a sherman. Even transport trucks. They would have the old surplus from WWII and not the new air conditioned, satelite radio having ones.
It was just a thought about why the innersphere has not bought them up from the clans or even the plans for them. I guess the developers pulled them out, because give the way the innersphere was fighting the clans, getting ahold of those weapons would have given the innersphere the advantage in close quarters.
3 clan erml are nice but at touch range, the 5 or more normal lasers are even better.
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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
12/16/14 08:09 PM
172.56.20.141
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Danit I really need to do something about that window!
That is another argument that went out that dang window. LOL
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.
I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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