logic and hitting a battlemech with weapon fire

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His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
02/19/15 07:03 AM
208.54.70.190

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I was thinking about it and it dose make some logical sense that it can be hard to hit a moving battlemech.

A main battle tank would be from around maybe 50 to 150 square feet of center of mass depending on the angel of attack and size of course. On top of that you can very easily determine exactly where that center of mass will be in a spastic spot depending on what the ground is like in that spot.

Now a mech has a center of mass around say 40 to 80 square feet depending on the size of the mech. Yes a mech has a great deal more surface area than a tank but it has a far smaller center of mass. On top of that its not all that easy to determine exactly where that center of mass will be in a spastic spot do to being able to change its elevation do to bending its legs to move, the placement of its feet for the terrain where its stepping, and the angle of its legs to shift its weight to maneuver.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

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I am now a General *pain*
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wolf_lord_30
02/19/15 08:40 AM
166.137.244.36

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And when in one turn, the mech is moving forward at a run and in the next it backpedals and turns, while twisting its torso, pilots do make it difficult to aim. You think your shooting at the head or torso and even though you hit, thanks to their evasion, your shots hit the left side instead. That's why I've never had trouble with the random hit chart. It does make sense.
ghostrider
02/19/15 12:30 PM
76.89.120.217

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Both are true, but right now we have weapons that hit moving tanks in a moving tank, with both trying to avoid incoming fire. We can also hit those moving vehicles from one side of a state or country with very good accuracy. If you use laser targeting, it becomes close to almost guaranteed.
I know the tech was 'lost' at the begining for the game, but as I said with the rotary laser ams, you are using that to hit something that a person can carry, that is moving at very high speeds and probably wiggling depending on gyro scope (sidewinder comes to mind) that doesn't miss, since it reduces the missiles.
And it hits multiple missiles.
I will say a few might be destroy from the blast of another one going off, but this negates all the issue of hitting a 36 foot tall unit.
This is true when neither one of them moves.

Now I do agree it can be difficult, but with the novels saying there is a target locking program for weapons, what is so difficult to have the system ignore the fire command for the weapons that aren't locked?
They have the targeting computers to assist in the lock on, but haven't figured out how to incorperate it into the main battle computer or increase it?

The turns is only to break down how to deal with units operating. The physical attacks are too easy to hit. As wolf says they are evading, but not stop and go like the game uses. And if you look at the tables for side fire, it does account for shots that 'miss' the side you are looking at. HItting the arm or the leg but not the opposite side torso was a good planning thought.
wolf_lord_30
02/21/15 07:37 AM
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Unless I am misreading your post, once of the questions you ask is why can't the computer not shot I'd it doesn't have a lock on. So it gets a lock with two weapons but not the third, so why even allow your mech to shoot the third weapon.
The problem with that is getting a lock on, on a moving target is not easy. Manual fire may actually be better in some situations. You can lead a target easier than follow them for the lock on. Ballistic weapons don't follow the path of a missile. Getting a lock on for that would be nothing more than a guide where one could still miss quite easily. Missiles have guidance systems in them which makes them more expensive than certain ballistic weapons ammo.
Steak missiles actually use the lock ones in game. They don't waste much ammo. But even if you get that desired lock on, hiring the mech in one location is rare. They are moving and evading just like you,a torso twist our sign so and that perfect shot now realigns and his an arm instead.
You compare shooting a mech to a tank, but it's not a tank. It's a mobile and agile humanoid vehicle that moves faster than a tank, generally speaking. So I would have to argue that the logic they're just doesn't apply. Smart missiles are effective in certain situations, but not all and as I'm not qualified to tell anyone about them, I will stop right there..
Lastly, saying physical attacks are too easy. Really, have fly ever tried to do a death from above on that troublesome Phoenix Hawk with your Highlander? 9 at the easiest. A kick is easier than a punch to hit with, but if you miss there's a chance you fall down on your sorry tin can backside, and then your MechWarrior rolls a two for staying conscious when you fail the falling damage roll and need to roll for that dreaded blackout. Charging is usually an 8 to hit and you miss that and fall down a couple elevation levels and destroy your unarmed charger instead of his blackjack?
ghostrider
02/21/15 01:04 PM
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The first statement is correct, but might need a little more information.
If a weapon doesn't lock, the computer should not fire it. Now you can always override it to fire the weapon like you can streaks but this is pretty useless unless you are trying to heat up a mech to use triple strength myomers.

As for a mech being harder to shoot then a tank.. Yes it is more mobile, but faster? That depends on designs. This issue is covered with the movement modifier to hit. Now to counter part of that. A mech is a moving billboard. 30 plus feet tall. The tank might be 10 foot tall. What would be easier to target?
Also, I have not seen any suggestions for something like a laser targeting system. But then I haven't been here that long. Everything hits the red dot....

Direct fire weapons should be easier to hit a moving target then something like lrms, since before the clan launchers needed to arc. I can understand full missile packs not hitting with everything in the cheap zombie versions of the missies. And unless the cannon shots are slower then a moving vehicle, it should not require that much lead, without other conditions, such as high winds.

With physical attacks, I was talking the kick and punch. I will use your own argument back. When a mech attacks another mech, they would be dodging as well as moving in most cases.
And I haven't forgotten a missed kick is bad. I have always suggested hand actuators for punches.
Maybe the perception of mechs not being human and lacking the ability to move like one is causing issues. With 2 mechs on level ground, one can not round house kick another one. Or even a straight kick.
CrayModerator
02/21/15 01:21 PM
97.101.96.171

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Quote:
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey writes:

I was thinking about it and it dose make some logical sense that it can be hard to hit a moving battlemech.



Think it through a bit more. What would 31st Century, or even 23rd Century, targeting technology be like?

With 1970s technology, a moving Abrams tank can hit a moving, low profile target at 2 miles (100 hexes) nine out of 10 shots. Meanwhile, what could a REALISTIC 'Mech using decrepit, 3025-era technology (similar to Age of War stuff) hit?

Imagine the scenario:

An invader DropShip lands on a Davion planet. It wasn't attacked during the approach because it was too easy for the DropShip to maneuver out of the line of fire of incoming autocannon and Gauss Rifle slugs, which - per aerospace combat scale and turn length - were moving at tens of kilometers per second, enough to easily escape planetary gravity and hit the moon, but easy for a DropShip to sidestep.

Now, though, the DropShip is on the ground. 'Mechs are coming out of it and doing their dastardly invader things: stealing water, terrorizing cattle, and shooting up the countryside. At the speed of BattleMechs (30 to 100kph, typically), they'll be on the ground for a few hours.

The crude 23rd Century internet of the planet has thousands of sensors and webcams in every farm house, fence, and cow on the planet. The invaders were pinpointed by a quick image search on the internet and now are pinpointed to within a few millimeters. Scattered across the planet, defending autocannon-armed BattleMech aim their hypervelocity guns skyward and begin banging away; within 45 minutes, the shells are descending on the invading DropShip, which has no chance of dodging. The entire invasion zone is blanketed by intercontinental artillery, though the invader 'Mechs usually have plenty of time - minutes - to spot incoming shells and scurry out of the way (unlike the DropShip).

Over the next few days, the invaders are hunted down. Unlike the defenders, they don't know where most of their opponents are. Invader soldiers find themselves attacked by stealthy little drone bots in their own field tents - that chirping cricket turns out to be a kamikaze drone more murderous than any Aliens "facehugger." Periodically, their positions are shelled from defenders located across the planet.

The times there are "face to face" battles, the combatants rarely get closer than 100 kilometers. 23rd Century LRMs and SRMs never miss, unless they're shot down by laser anti-missile defenses. The SRMs putter along like slow aerial drones, sneaking through terrain until they can make a hypersonic dash toward the target. LRMs arc high into the atmosphere and use a mix of evasion, decoys, and jamming to try to hammer the targets. Energy weapons are reserved for last ditch line-of-sight engagements, but no 'Mech tries to get there - everything is happening over the horizon if possible, where the bulk of the planet keeps 'Mechs safe from direct, near-instant fire of autocannons, Gauss rifles, and energy weapons packing energies equal to tens of kilotons of TNT. Few "face to face" battles last more than 10 seconds, and most of that is dominated by flight time of missiles.

The invaders are particularly disadvantaged because they don't have the omniscient knowledge of where their opponents are. Missiles and shells pop over the horizon, but any counter battery fire is directed at empty fields since the attacker has long since scooted away.

There's no fun in these battles of mathematics, over-the-horizon engagements, super-brilliant drones, hacking, and instant death.

What'd be more fun is having giant robots blast away at each other from a few hundred meters distance like Pacific Rim, Robot Jox, or Robotech. That'd make a fun game.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
ghostrider
02/21/15 03:27 PM
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Technically Robotech has and uses icbm style missiles. Not often, but they have it.
The main reflex cannon and missiles have a range of over 100k kilometers, but it's been a while.

I know you exaggerated the amount of sensors scattered since the population would still be fighting big brother, but they would have alot more scanners up then they currently do.

I like comparing the lrms to icbm and the srms to cruise missiles. Although laser ams might not be as popular, and mass throwing ams would probably be cheaper to make, maintain, and less energy use to run them. But that isn't that important.

Part of this also means they really would need to expand scouts abilities to things like hacking. You get into the planets intel structure to find out where the enemy is at, as well as give them false information on where your forces are at. But that is something mechwarrior role playing should come in.

If they want to keep it hard to target, then keep high tech crap like laser ams out of the game or expand it to cover more realistic things. If it targets anything moving towards the units it protects that should encompass more then just missiles. Normal ams sends out a lot of garbage into the path of missiles, not really targeting any particular one in a volley.

And truthfully, in the scenario you described, I would see the use of aeroforces more of use then what they are now. Warships countering the ground based defenses like artillery positions. So that would actually make things like lams more useful.

I know that changes the scope of the game. But really. Keeping the enemy from landing is the best defense other then obliterating them on their worlds. The only other thing is doing like the common saying has. You need 3 times the defending forces to get anywhere. Guess that should be impressed with the example.
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
02/21/15 04:34 PM
172.56.31.211

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Hey Cray I love this new game of yours. When do you plan to publish it?
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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