c3 networks

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ghostrider
03/16/15 06:04 PM
76.89.120.217

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does the master c3 have to be carried on a unit in the general area as the network, or could it be mounted on say a leopard dropship and used to control the mechs it carries.
Yes it would need 2 for the 4 mechs.
The improved ones seem to not need that, but with them, do they have the 12 unit limit as the original networks?
wolf_lord_30
03/16/15 07:16 PM
166.137.244.126

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According to the rules, the master unit has to be on the map. And all the wording says "mechs", so I think it does have to be mounted on mechs.
It would almost make sense to have a C3 on a dropship, except what happens when the lance wanders away from it? Then they have all these C3 slave units and no way to communicate between them.
Retry
03/16/15 07:36 PM
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The Manticore Heavy Tank has a C3M variant as well as a C3 variant. Plenty of combat vehicle variants use some variant of C3.
CrayModerator
03/16/15 07:38 PM
67.8.171.23

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Quote:
ghostrider writes:

does the master c3 have to be carried on a unit in the general area as the network, or could it be mounted on say a leopard dropship and used to control the mechs it carries.



Well, p342 of Tech Manual notes that C3 systems may only be mounted on 'Mechs, combat vehicles, and support vehicles. I think there's a separate battle armor C3 system, which is necessarily limited to battle armor.

There are some other limits:

Per p131 Total Warfare, "only units actually on the playing area may benefit from the network, and C3 master (or C3 masters if using a company-sized network) must be on the playing area." The Leopard would thus need to be on the map(s).

Further, per pg132 TW, you must clearly designate on their record sheets which slave units correspond to each master unit.

On that note, the following rules apply:
1) One master may control up to 3 slaves.
2) To create larger C3 networks, up to 12 units, you need multiple masters for the slaves AND a master for the masters. This isn't official, but I'll use the following terms: slave, subordinate masters (slave controllers), and high master (master controller).
2a) Each subordinate master still controls up to 3 slaves. Thus, you'd need 3 subordinate masters in the company controlling 9 slaves.
2b) A fourth master, the high master, would be needed to integrate the 3 subordinate masters.
2c) Master computers can control masters, or slaves, not a mix of both.
3) Larger groupings - battalions, regiments, etc. - are not possible. Nothing above 12 units for standard C3 systems.

pg132 of TW details the various possible configurations.

One of the disadvantages of using the Leopard is that the units with C3 masters can be full participants of the C3 network. You can have your C3 Master command 'Mech blasting away with the rest of the network. If the C3 Master is on the Leopard, then you've only got 3 'Mechs (or tanks) on the battlefield that really part of the network. I mean, the Leopard can also shoot at targets but only while they're in its limited range and the C3 network ends when the fight moves off the map. And the Leopard is not an impressive combatant when grounded. (Or airborne, either.)

This problem scales up to the company level. If you put all 4 C3 masters on the Leopard, then you will only have 9 'Mechs in the network (plus the Leopard, for what that's worth).

There are two possible configurations that will allow company-scale (12 'Mechs/tanks) integration without excluding any of the company's units.

Configuration 1 (as noted on p132 TW) has 4 'Mechs with masters and 8 'Mechs with slaves. Subordinate master 1 controls 3 slaves; subordinate master 2 controls 3 slaves; subordinate master 3 controls TWO slaves; and the high master controls 3 subordinate masters. Subordinate master 2 is under-utilized, but you can't have more than 12 units in a standard C3 network.

Configuration 2 has 3 'mechs with masters, but one of those 'Mechs must have 2 masters (high and subordinate), and 9 slave units. This is disadvantageous for the company command unit, which would be burdened with 10 tons of C3 masters, but frees up 4 tons on a 9th 'Mech by allowing it to use the 9th slave.

Configurations 3 and 4 concentrate more and more masters on a single unit, such as putting 4 on a mega-command unit (or Leopard, if that were possible). However, because each subordinate master can only handle 3 slaves (9 total), these configurations end up with units in the company that cannot participate in the network.

Quote:
The improved ones seem to not need that, but with them, do they have the 12 unit limit as the original networks?



C3 Improved networks can only group up to 6 units, no more. Again, you have to designate which C3i units are in which C3i network before the game starts - no swapping units between networks in the middle of a game.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
ghostrider
03/16/15 07:55 PM
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Actually, the leopard would not be part of the combatants, but would be used to carry the weight of the masters so the infield units don't need it.
So the lance it carries could use the system with both masters being on the dropship.
This could be used for the gazelle dropship for a pair of iight vehicle lances and such.

Donkey's lance got me thinking about it. So you have 2 masters on the dropship, and only 4 mechs in the field, but without the special weapons like the streak, it would benefit from the c3 system without needing more then the ton for a slave unit.

The improved networks makes sense since comstar/wob uses 6 mechs for their basic lance.

And range was an issue I wasn't sure about. I don't remember anything about the unit needing to be on the map for use. Granted the original place I had read about them no longer has the information in the reprints. I figured without ecm they could use them across the worlds since the comms systems would carry it for as far as they could reach.
But it can be used as a tag which makes me wonder if it is connected to the launchers to guide the arrows in, or just does it locally, since it would need to have the codes to help track friendly fire.
CrayModerator
03/17/15 06:08 PM
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:

Actually, the leopard would not be part of the combatants, but would be used to carry the weight of the masters so the infield units don't need it.



I understood that, I was just trying to point out that it might be better to have the master on a combatant on the battlefield. A C3 master on a non-combatant is one less usable combatant in the network.

Quote:
So the lance it carries could use the system with both masters being on the dropship.



3 Masters on the DropShip, not 2 masters. You need one master for 3 'Mechs, one master for the 4th 'Mech in the lance, and a third master to link the 2 masters. (Or one master for 'Mechs 1-2, the second master for 'Mechs 3-4, and then the high master to link masters 1 and 2.)

Without the 3rd master linking the other two masters your lance will be broken into two separate C3 networks.

Quote:
Donkey's lance got me thinking about it. So you have 2 masters on the dropship, and only 4 mechs in the field, but without the special weapons like the streak, it would benefit from the c3 system without needing more then the ton for a slave unit.



Well, 3 masters, but otherwise yes. And the system would be ready to scale to 6 slaves, since each subordinate master could handle 3 slaves.

Quote:
And range was an issue I wasn't sure about. I don't remember anything about the unit needing to be on the map for use.



"Playing area," not a single map. If you're playing on 100 maps, then the Leopard just needs to be somewhere on those 100 maps.

Quote:
But it can be used as a tag which makes me wonder if it is connected to the launchers to guide the arrows in, or just does it locally, since it would need to have the codes to help track friendly fire.



TAG is basically a laser designator. Once the shells arrive over the battlefield, they see the TAG's laser spot and home in on it. There's no required, jammable communication involved in TAG.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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