In the Battletech Universe, is cost an issue for buying combat units?

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ATN082268
03/11/15 02:04 AM
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In the Battletech Universe, is cost an issue for buying combat units? Combat units are 'Mechs, Vehicles, etc.
In the Battletech Universe, is cost an issue for buying combat units?
You may choose only one
Generally yes with a few exceptions
Generally no with a few exceptions


Votes accepted from (03/11/15 01:03 AM) to (No end specified)
View the results of this poll

ghostrider
03/11/15 03:44 AM
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this belongs in another section.

But the answer to this depends on the people playing. If you are playing a merc unit, then yes. Cost would be an issue.
If you don't play with salvage, or just do death matches, then I don't think anyone is paying attention.

If you want to make sense (yeah right) of the game, you should have some logic to it. A house is not going to spend 30 million on a unit that can be lost easily. Yes, the more efficient the design, the more likely it is of being bought, but there is a point where no matter what you spend on it, you will not make your money back, since all units can be destroyed. Orbital bombardments come into mind here.

If you follow the canon story line, the fed com put a hold on warships because of the costs. Honestly, why would you need thousands of soldier guarding each planet, if you can prevent the enemy from ever getting to it? But yet the expense of orbital stations prevents that from happening.
ATN082268
03/11/15 06:00 AM
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<this belongs in another section.>

Possibly but a large number of units that the poll references are from this section.

<But the answer to this depends on the people playing.>

No. The poll question says, "In the Battletech Universe," not your game, not what you think it should be, etc. A majority of combat units would constitute, "generally," as mentioned in the poll.
wolf_lord_30
03/11/15 08:00 AM
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Generally, no. Everyone seems to be able to buy what they need to rebuild their armies after battles. In the game universe, it was logistics and production that hurt armies a bit. I didn't read too much anywhere about a lack of funding, with a few exceptions when the armies are supposed to be weaker or underfunded.


Funding armies wasn't in the scope of the game. Even when costs, salvage and repairing were introduced, it was for player fun and their campaign management, it wasn't to learn how to properly buy for a house or clan army.
ghostrider
03/11/15 01:19 PM
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that is an interesting point. It does seem the only time an organization doesn't have something is when the scenario call for it. in both scenario packs and novels there are events that make it so you have to fight the odds to get anywhere.

But there are a few that also send the thought the other way. A few planets were lost because there was not enough troops to even begin to protect it. And since mercs could still buy new units from the people that didn't have the money to purchase the forces, ie border world militias and even normal regiments.

But then the entire innersphere was made to feel like you had a problem buying the units, since manufacturing and resources were scarce for components of them, like the radioactive elements needed for fusion reactors.

And though I have not seen much about it, the Liao problem of losing so many resources was shown to cut how many forces they could have. In their situation, I would figure they would have more people ready to become soldiers to protect their homes.
Rotwang
03/12/15 09:06 AM
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Strictly speaking there is no cost in the BT universe only the assumptions of the game creators. Units appear and disppear at the whim of a writer.

Yet I cannot imagine that cost has no impact in the game. BT is set in a universe were scarcity is still a major factor. Even with thousands of planets and billions of citizens the Inner Sphere powers still have only so much resources and money to spend, so they must make choices.

Nobody can afford to equip their armies with entire regiments of Mad Cat II mechs, give every grunt her own powered armour and crank out McKenna's at will. As mentioned above Liao had major logistic problems that plagued it for a long time. Even the equipment the WOB pulled out of their arse, had to be funded, built, shipped, troops had to be trained, but their resources were not infinite.
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
03/12/15 03:44 PM
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Quote:
Rotwang writes:
Nobody can afford to equip their armies with entire regiments of Mad Cat II mechs, give every grunt her own powered armour and crank out McKenna's at will. As mentioned above Liao had major logistic problems that plagued it for a long time. Even the equipment the WOB pulled out of their arse, had to be funded, built, shipped, troops had to be trained, but their resources were not infinite.



With the Quadrillions in tax money each state collects each year, oh yeah they could. BT dose not represent a galaxies economy well what so ever. An example a Merchant jump ship should generate an annual profit of at least 40,000,000 C-Bills after all expenses are paid. In game you would be lucky to make 1,000,000 C-Bills before expenses. Who would invest in a high risk jump ship when you could have an ultra safe pass book savings account and make a far better return on your money?
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
GiovanniBlasini
03/12/15 05:06 PM
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Nobody has infinite resources. Nobody.

As such, cost will *always* be an issue. It may not always be the primary issue, but it will always, always be *an* issue, and something that needs to be factored in.
Member of the Pundit Caste
"Which side are we on? We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We're evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go. I'm surprised you didn't know that." -- Col. Saul Tigh, BSG2003
ghostrider
03/12/15 07:19 PM
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As I initially said. It depends on who is playing. One person would be very conscious of trying to make it all economy run, ie paying for each shell or missile from a budget, or not worry about a thing, since in the end only a die roll will determine what you can and can't buy.

Now as donkey has pointed out, the numbers they used don't seem to match if you did it by their numbers books. You can rarely jump once a week without using the fusion engines to charge a drive core. Yet the cost for running the engine seems to be omitted from the charge sheets. And using keeping thrusters, wouldn't that also be charging the core?
If not, why not?
Normal fusion engines provide motion for other units while providing even more power for weapons and such.
But the same idea could be used to ask why bother with paying for a mech to become rich, when owning a building will do the same.
Only the belief the person holds would determine that. Hate to say it, but it would come down to mech warriors having a murder fixation. They would buy a mech to kill over an apartment complex to house people in.
wolf_lord_30
03/12/15 10:34 PM
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Well owning the building might make you rich for a while, until I come through with my lance and demolish the whole city. Just for fun because you made more money than me.
ghostrider
03/13/15 12:36 AM
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That's what insurance is for

And wait until you try to rent a room from me when your mech is in the shop
Retry
03/14/15 06:52 PM
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Much of those "quadrillions" of tax dollars end up going to internal improvements, further expansion of the state (such as building or funding jumpship construction or research), or simply maintaining the state itself. Looking at tax revenue only is misleading.
wolf_lord_30
03/20/15 09:10 AM
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:

But the same idea could be used to ask why bother with paying for a mech to become rich, when owning a building will do the same.
Only the belief the person holds would determine that. Hate to say it, but it would come down to mech warriors having a murder fixation. They would buy a mech to kill over an apartment complex to house people in.



Do you have Field Manual: Mercenaries (1701)? I was just reading it and on page 9 it talks about mercenary motivations. To paraphrase it, mercenaries for the most part do not turn mercenary for monetary reasons. Some units do make profit and do very well (Kell Hounds and Gray Death Legion) but there are other endeavors that yield more profits without the risk of combat. The majority of new mercenary units will fail. Only the foolish ones or the desperate ones think that mercenary life is an easy way to make money. So the reason that so many soldiers turned mercenary is the lure of freedom. Or in the case you pointed out, they just love to fight.

It also goes on in the side column to describe "justifiable rebellion" when a house stops paying their troops and they do unauthorized raids against enemies or their own house to supply and pay their unit. Mercs who do this are considered disloyal or treacherous.

Interesting tidbit, but in light of what I have just read, I actually think that my original post and vote was wrong. Finances do matter in the universe, and more than I first thought. I guess when you just play one off games, you really don't think about finances too much. But now that I'm trying to work a campaign, they matter a lot.
ghostrider
03/20/15 11:50 AM
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Costs matters only if the players allow it to.
I was told no, but yet if they players don't deal with campaigns and such, or just do death matches, then it is very clear.
If a house unit, you order parts and the arrive on the next dropship, or is sitting in the repair bay.
Granted, not wanting to deal with a faulty mech in the next fight goes a long way to making that part be there. Imagine how careful players would be with their units if the next time they had to fight, they started off with 10 extra heat from a broken engine.

And some of the reasons you described about why people become merc is scattered through out all the books. There are stories about units not getting paid. Some were sent on suicide missions that they didn't know were a suicide mission. In those they normally found out when the transports never show up. Some are revenge for abuse at the hands of the local commander on up to the head of the house or state.

And freedom of choice makes alot of normally dedicated soldiers think mercs have it all. They only difference really there is possible higher pay, and the belief you are doing it because you want to.
RockJock
08/11/15 08:54 PM
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Limiting factors are definitely part of the BT world, sometimes those are C-Bills and sometimes it is another resource. A Periphery minor power in the 3020s is not in the same boat as tht FWL in 3052.

If you are a dustball in the Periphery then money/cost is an issue, who will trade to you is an issue, what you can repair is an issue and probably another dozen factors I'm missing. Where as the FWL is flush with cash, and is more limited by maintanence infrastucture and parts availability. The Dracs in the 3050s having issues with DHS production, and that shaping their 3050s mechs is another good example.

During the Succession Wars I think parts/tech availability was a much bigger limiting factor then straight C-Bills. How many mech chassis were out of production all together, or could only have certain parts built?
ghostrider
08/11/15 10:05 PM
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The issue with that is, most people do not worry about costs, even if they are alone on a planet with no one else around.

We know the game designers use fluff to make things sounds worse then what they really are, since they don't follow their own story lines with facts. Say they start production on the grand dragon in 3030. They can produce no more then 100 a year, yet some how they have a lance of them in every company in the combine that very year. If you figure each regiment has at least 3 companies, that is 12 mechs per regiment. I believe there is 5 sword of light regiments. So that is 60 mechs right there. Then each district has several regiments with 12 mechs each. How do you figure 100 a year with this status?

And honestly. If the periphery states can't even feed themselves, how are they getting the materials and know how to build mechs with equipment they don't have? If engines are so complicated, they would have issues keeping them running much less build them. And in the numbers they can put out units is amazing. I know black market and blackmail along with raids will help, but there is only so much that can be done.

And I showed how many combine mechs had dhs, and it was implied they were all upgraded when the tro came out for it.

So no. Money is not a factor for items in most games, including the developers lines.
Rotwang
08/12/15 01:58 AM
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It gets even worse if you look at the stock of the interstellar merchant fleet, planet clusters have to make do with something like 10,000 tons of cargo capacity total spread over weeks with some groups of planets are served by a single Scout and a Mule or two.

And this in a universe where earth is a magical planet with lots of resources and the average planet in the Inner Sphere has trouble keeping up with the industrial output of current day Costa Rica ...
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
08/12/15 06:14 AM
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Little real thought really went into the economics of the battletech universe. If they did all jumpships would have been like warships and the civilian transports would have made military warships look tiny. A warship would be ten thousand to hundreds of thousands of tons where the largest civilian junpships would have been tens of millions of tons which almost all of the weight other than the jumpdrive being cargo. Dropships would not go from planets to the jump point but from the planet to orbit where the massive cargo jumpships would park to be unloaded.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
Akirapryde2006
08/12/15 10:45 AM
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Quote:
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey writes:

Little real thought really went into the economics of the battletech universe.



I have to agree completely with Donkey on this one. economics as framed by the question in this game/universe have little real importance. Numbers are tossed in there with no real thought placed to the logic of economics. I have read my fair share of books and have seen little real influence of economic in the universe expect as a plot driver (Most notable the early days of the Gray Death Legion)

However, that being said! As much as I love my first Mechwarrior Narrator, I hated his the way he got a sadistic pleasure from making us suffer. Sure we got our feet wet on Solaris VII in a Stables. But the story turned and drove us from the Stables. We were on our own and had to build up from there. I recall having to decide if we needed that extra load of ammo or that ton of armor. Oh and don't get me started on keeping track of ammo use. The entire first game year, I don't think I ever went in to a arena with a full ammo load. Talking about nickle and dimming us to death lol But I loved it. What we got we busted our tails for. It gave us a better appreciation for what we built.

Even with this said you might think that I would reconsider my opinion. But I don't. I am solid with this view and my support of Donkey's statement. What happened in our game was the very rare exception because our Narrator was not only our Squad Leader (E-6) He also had a degree in economics and was able to take our game to this level. He had to rewrite many of the rules (those governing cash, resources and economics) to make the numbers make sense. He even forwarded his ideas to FASA in hopes of getting the rules (back then) changed.

So to answer this question, "In the Battletech Universe, is cost an issue for buying combat units?" No. If you want proof of this, just go and watch one of your friends playing a match. Watch how easily they will sacrifice a lesser unit for a kill. Don't play in the match nor comment. Just watch silently. You will see how easily cost is tossed out for the sake of fun. And this is the way the game was designed, for the players to have fun. Not to worry about cost like we had to.
ghostrider
08/12/15 02:01 PM
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Akira. You had a game master that actually dealt with money in the game. That is very rare indeed.
We all seem to agree the way the game was set up, does not fit the economics needed to keep the galaxy working.

Now the example of people sacrificing a unit to win a match. How many are controlled by one person?
How many times does the unit get replaced without even thought about it?
How many times would a player sacrifice their mech in a campaign if they had to become an infantryman until they get another one?
And with this, why would the commander allow someone that would sacrifice his unit have another one?

I would think the rule of the day it pull back and find another way. Even doing a refit is cheaper then replacing the whole unit.
And one last thing.
Why would anyone stay with a unit if they were constantly told to draw the fire that could ultimately kill them to allow others the glory of being the hero?
NeverSayNever
08/12/15 06:00 PM
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Quote:

"In the Battletech Universe, is cost an issue for buying combat units?"





Omly if the creators / writers of the official fictional history / storyline of the BattleTech Universe (BTU) want it to be that way (see official novels and or sourcebooks),. e.g. a mercenay protagonist like Grayson Death Carlyle (Grey Death Legion) got described as being not that wealthy ("Mercenary's Star", starter novel) but then came novels like "En Garde", "Riposte" and "Coipe" with ups and downs regarding military and financial successes.

Chandrasekar Kurita, descibed as rich CEO in some later novels .

And then there's the clan warrior caste which does not need to worry about boring finances, that's the job of the merchnant caste.

Offical novels = scripted 'content' = scripted / predetermined wealth / success etc., which is open to drastic changes if a story writer deems it necessary.
NeverSayNever
08/12/15 06:41 PM
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Always look on the bright side.

Once you leave the official BTU and its fictional restictions it's up to you and your local gaming group members to shape your own, unofficial, local variant of the BTU, with or without financial restrictions on unit selection.

No predetermined, scripted financial 'fate' but what you and your local gaming group members make.


If the official BTU seems jolly rotten,
there's something you've forgotten:

Always look on the bright side of pen and paper board games,
many if not most of the rules and restrictions are entirely optional.


Stop worrying about virtual, artificial, in game finances, just play the game.
NeverSayNever
08/14/15 05:00 AM
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Oooops, error found, patch note required.

buggy early beta release:
Quote:

Omly if the creators / writers of the official fictional history / storyline of the BattleTech Universe (BTU) want it to be that way (see official novels and or sourcebooks),. e.g. a mercenay protagonist like Grayson Death Carlyle (Grey Death Legion) got described as being not that wealthy ("Mercenary's Star", starter novel) but then came novels like "En Garde", "Riposte" and "Coipe" with ups and downs regarding military and financial successes.





revised edition:
Omly if the creators / writers of the official fictional history / storyline of the BattleTech Universe (BTU) want it to be that way (see official novels and or sourcebooks),. e.g. a mercenay protagonist like Grayson Death Carlyle (Gray Death Legion) got described as being not that wealthy ("Decision at Thunder Rift", starter novel) but then came novels like "Mercenary's Star" and "The Price of Glory" with ups and downs regarding military and financial successes.



Please could the lynch mob drop pitcforks and torches now? Thank you!
Bad_Syntax
11/25/15 06:18 PM
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I'm a little late to this, but wanted to chime in.

No, cost isn't a factor.

I don't ever remember reading a single instance where some mech sat around with nothing to do waiting on a buyer.... not once. vehicles a couple time mentioned they were cheap, but not much more than that.

Production is the limiting factor, not cost, else things like XL, or worse, XXL, would simply never, ever, ever be used because of their expense.

Mercs only stay in business when they salvage stuff, otherwise they can't afford the repairs, period. So, a good contract negotiator is better than a good accountant in the BTU, and the rules support this heavily.

In a interstellar campaign I would use the following for limits:
- New recruits, there aren't many colleges training mechwarriors. The # of graduates dictate how many new mechs you can add to your armies. We do have a list of colleges, and what kind of soldiers they train.
- Production. There was about 4 regiments of mechs made per year in 3025 by Liao and Marik. Many mechs will be broken down and scrapped, so this is the second most important limiting factor
- Maintenance. Without good techs, crap breaks down, and FAST. Lose all your techs for a mech regiment that regiment will be 100% inoperable in just a couple months.

And finally, you simply *must* ignore a few things:
- Populations, taxes, military sizes, and anything else that falls under "fasanomics".
ghostrider
11/26/15 02:46 AM
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Costs only come into effect when the group playing deals with it.
When it's the creators, nothing but a whim determines what happens. Otherwise, Liao would have went bankrupt already trying to replace everything they lost since 3005. They lost several regiments to the dragoons as well as other units though even taking the 4 regiments from both state and replacing them wouldn't do it.
When the 4th war broke out, they lost not only about half of their troops, but I believe they said most of the manufacturing of Liao was lost. Sarna, Nanking, as well as other planets were in enemy hands. And that meant dropship and jumpship productions as well.

Recruits is hard to pin down, since not all soldiers go to a college to learn their skills. Alot of soldiers learn in the field or other training programs. But you do have a valid point. If only 30,000 soldiers gradutate, then you will not build an army of 100,000 from them. Yes, dispossessed pilots would be able to fill spots, so there is some leeway there.
Mercs tend to train their pilots this way.

Production does not match losses at all. I mean all production across the innersphere does not match losses. The canon book galtor campaign has the entire davion/kurita border being raided big time then the actual losses on Galtor would have drained all replacement even before it was in full swing. The house books support the loss of units before the 4th war, yet somehow they managed to pull new units out of the butts, along with filling in all the empty spots in existing units. Did comstar sell mechs to everyone beside kurita that we don't know about? Oh wait, that was 3039.

As for techs, that is completely correct. No techs means everything starts to break down. Now without combat, the couple of months may be to quick, but any combat would have them down probably 2 battles if the pilots were lucky. One if not.
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