Sytgian SYTG-88T

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Karagin
03/27/15 11:51 PM
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Code:
          BattleTech Vehicle Technical Readout
VALIDATED

Type/Model: Sytgian SYTG-88T
Tech: Inner Sphere / 3060
Config: Tracked Vehicle
Rules: Level 3, Standard design

Mass: 70 tons
Power Plant: 280 FireHeart Fusion
Cruise Speed: 43.2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64.8 km/h
Armor Type: Ceramic Iridium Composite Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:
2 Mydron Rotary AC/5s
2 Diverse Optics Type 20X ER Medium Lasers
Manufacturer: Fernowi Manufactor Constorium
Location: Archona, Terra
Communications System: CBR CommSat
Targeting & Tracking System: Eye TTS

--------------------------------------------------------
Type/Model: Sytgian SYTG-88T
Mass: 70 tons

Equipment: Items Mass
Int. Struct.: 35 pts Standard 0 7.00
Engine: 280 Fusion 0 16.00
Shielding & Transmission Equipment: 0 8.00
Cruise MP: 4
Flank MP: 6
Heat Sinks: 10 Single 0 .00
Cockpit & Controls: 0 3.50
Crew: 5 Members 0 .00
Turret Equipment: 0 2.00
Armor Factor: 134 pts Ferro-Fibrous 2 7.50

Internal Armor
Structure Value
Front: 7 35
Left / Right Sides: 7 28/28
Rear: 7 16
Turret: 7 27

Weapons and Equipment Loc Heat Ammo Items Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
2 Rotary AC/5s Turret 0 80 3 24.00
1 ER Medium Laser Front 5 1 1.00
1 ER Medium Laser Front 5 1 1.00
1 Trailer Hitch Rear 1 .00
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS: 10 8 70.00
Items & Tons Left: 11 .00

Calculated Factors:
Total Cost: 3,960,433 C-Bills
Battle Value 2: 1,289 (old BV = 976)
Cost per BV: 3,072.49
Weapon Value: 953 / 953 (Ratio = .74 / .74)
Damage Factors: SRDmg = 43; MRDmg = 25; LRDmg = 2
BattleForce2: MP: 4T, Armor/Structure: 0 / 6
Damage PB/M/L: 5/5/-, Overheat: 0
Class: GH; Point Value: 13
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Retry
03/28/15 12:49 AM
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To augment survivability, you could replace the lasers with a GECM and a half-ton more stealth armor. Dual IS ERMLs do use those free heat sinks but have limited combat value compared to the main RAC array, especially with the additional consideration of the limited laser fire arcs. At the loss of 6 points of armor, GECM+Stealth increases your survivability at medium and long ranges due to additional to-hit modifiers and also immunize yourself from NARC equipped spotters. You can use the GECM and stealth armor to get yourself in a better position to use what potent firepower you do have and, additionally, won't have to worry about positioning the frontally mounted ER medium lasers at foes.
Karagin
03/28/15 01:41 AM
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Sorry but I don't buy in the stealth armor on tanks.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Retry
03/28/15 01:51 AM
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That's a shame. The sytgian had so much potential.
ghostrider
03/28/15 05:15 AM
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Doesn't mean you can't modify it if you want to use it in your battles.

Depending on it's main use, the added cost of the stealth armor might not be worth the cost. Honestly, I wonder alot of times if the lasers shouldn't be in the rear to shack off pursuers while running. And yes, I know that thought wouldn't work for most people. Everything in front to kill faster

Not sure how much ammo is used at full fire, but is there enough to last 10 or so rounds?
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
03/28/15 11:10 AM
172.56.33.126

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Real light on the ammo. It could really use more.

I would just drop the second rotary AC/5 and lighten the tank by twenty tons.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
Karagin
03/29/15 02:21 PM
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Again the ammo comments, do you guys always fire even if you know the chances to hit are not going to happen? If the target is at long range, most players won't fire, but to read what some of you keep saying it does seem as if the target is in range, no matter if it's long or medium or short, many of you are blasting away with everything ever time. That doesn't make any sense at all to me, but hey if it works for you...

The ammo is enough to last to through most battles when the player doesn't go full Rambo with the guns.

Thanks Donkey but I like it with dual RACs and the tonnage it's at.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
ghostrider
03/29/15 05:37 PM
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Depends on the situation. More then a few times, if you don't take the risky shot, you don't get to fire. I would rather fire on a 10 plus then not to even get a shot off. Even at medium/short range, you get into issue like this.
But I will say that most of the time anything above an 8 should mainly be energy weapons.
Also with tanks having a poor survival rate, it may be loading up ammo isn't such a good idea.
Karagin
03/29/15 05:55 PM
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Sometimes not firings is the better choice. 80 rounds of ammo should last long enough for the Stygian to either have done it's job or allowed others to do theirs. The idea of slugging it out toe to toe seems to be the main style of play based on the comments many make around here about weapon load outs and ammo bin sizings and amounts. It is as if very few use tactics and more then two mechs to fight out a battle.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
CrayModerator
03/29/15 07:12 PM
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Quote:
Karagin writes:

Again the ammo comments, do you guys always fire even if you know the chances to hit are not going to happen?



It's one thing to be efficient with ammo, but you've only got 6 full-speed volleys per gun (and a small remainder). You generally want at least 10 shots for a weapon in BT, and even 10 shots is a little light for anything but a duel.

Your tank has the capability to fire both guns at full speed without a heat issue, and it has the crew to quickly unjam them. Best to use them before you get critted to death by a 'Mech.

And besides, those TN 10-12 shots are worth taking with BFGs in short battles.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Retry
03/29/15 11:30 PM
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The main problem with having tactics with tanks that's more complex than run-up-and-shoot-them is, if you don't have the redundancy in the form of a lot of vehicles to begin with, you're at the mercy of frequent motive system crit rolls. You can do some complex stuff with battlemechs with some consistency because it's much harder to get a lucky crit on their own motive systems.

The only way to reduce this problem is to not get hit much in the first place, which is difficult when you're a slow and heavy tank. *cough* stealth armor *cough*.

Unfortunately, I don't think this tank will survive long enough to be able to use it's ammo supply, due to poor armor and slow speed. If you're going to use it in situations where there's "more than two [units] to fight out a battle," it's survivability is going to plummet because it's a relatively short ranged, slow, thin-skinned target. It doesn't seem to have any attributes that allow you to use the tank tactically except maybe in an ambush situation, where it's going to be discovered by active probes.
Karagin
03/30/15 08:27 PM
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I get the idea that more ammo can be better, though it's dual edged sword most of the time.

Stealth armor on a tank makes NO sense, I can see the ECM causing issues with thing, but not the armor, maybe if TPTB gave some actual though into ECM and ECCM systems then maybe things would not be so silly when it comes to Stealth armor. And given that little effects electronic systems in the game, makes having the Stealth pointless, but if you like Retry use it, just as I like using things in a team effort where using the terrain and the idea that you can manuaever your units to support each other verses one unit is the main item to always use.

As for many hits and the easy to kill the motivation systems, well the game is all about the mechs, no vehicles.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Retry
03/31/15 09:13 AM
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Well, that's the first time I've heard of an object that increases the to-hit roll of opponents at medium and long ranges with no direct penalties to yourself being called "pointless".

Unnamed
IS advanced
50 tons
BV: 1,065
Cost: 2,316,500 C-bills

Movement: 5/8 (Tracked)
Engine: 250

Internal: 25
Armor: 128 (Vehicular Stealth)
Internal Armor
Front 5 32
Right 5 27
Left 5 27
Rear 5 17
Turret 5 25

Weapons Loc Heat
Rotary AC/5 TU 1

Ammo Loc Shots
Rotary AC/5 Ammo BD 20
Rotary AC/5 Ammo BD 20
Rotary AC/5 Ammo BD 20

Equipment Loc
Guardian ECM Suite BD
Vehicular Stealth BD

A little over half the cost of a Sytgian, slightly less armor, slightly less ammunition while retaining a good amount of useable firepower, GECM and vehicular stealth benefits not present on the original. In addition, it has a superior 5/8 movement profile, superior for maneuvering vehicles into position.
CarcerKango
03/31/15 12:00 PM
64.251.51.246

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Um, there are penalties to yourself...it treats you as being under Guardian ECM and increases heat I think.
wolf_lord_30
03/31/15 01:28 PM
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If it treats you as being under a guardian ecm suite, then I don't see what the problem would be. ECM only affects enemy units.

Sorry, my unedited response sounded combative when that wasn't my intention.


Edited by wolf_lord_30 (03/31/15 03:04 PM)
ghostrider
03/31/15 02:56 PM
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I would think electronics would be affected by that. My guess would be c3 not working. I would also think targeting computers should be affected as well.

From what I can make out of stealth armor, it is the first step towards a cloaking system.
How does the armor actually work?
Why wouldn't the light bending paint be the same without all the extra crap the armor needs?

Without using the stealth armor, what is the cost of the smaller tank?
And yes, I am going to ask this again. Is that a fusion engine or ice?

I see Karagin was using energy weapons in alot of the newer designs. That is nice to give it a chance. Since it was a fusion engine, it kinda makes sense, though it might have been better to put them in a turret as well.
Retry's version looks to be a economy version, but the cost is a little high. If not for that, it might be worth buying 2 of them to cover one of Karagin's.
wolf_lord_30
03/31/15 03:17 PM
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The rules for stealth armor are right on the wiki portion of the site. I just looked over them and saw what carcerkango meant. It builds up 10 heat when active and acts as if you're under an enemy's Guardian ECM suite. You can activate or deactivate it at the end phase of any turn.
CrayModerator
03/31/15 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Karagin writes:

Stealth armor on a tank makes NO sense



Them crazy Poles. First they put a screen door on a submarine, then they make solar-powered flashlights, and now they're trying to put stealth armor on a tank. If I dig up the contact information, will you tell the Poles to knock off that senseless work?
http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/is-pola...1736/+jesusdiaz

Quote:
And given that little effects electronic systems in the game, makes having the Stealth pointless



Electronics are readily affected in BattleTech. Per BMR and Total Warfare, ECM affects the likes of Narc, Artemis, and (in higher grades) Streak systems, and helps mask units from electronic sensors. Further, stealth armor affects Narc, Artemis, and conventional targeting systems. I'm not sure where you get your ideas that electronics are not affected by much, they've been affected in game rules since 1989's TR:2750 was published.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
CrayModerator
03/31/15 06:46 PM
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:

How does the armor actually work?



Stealth armor gives a +1 to-hit the stealth armored unit at medium range, and +2 at long range. The actual details of what it does and what sensors it manipulates are not detailed, because 31st Century sensors are also kept vague. It's awkward to keep having real word technology outpace your 31st Century wargame.

Quote:
Why wouldn't the light bending paint be the same without all the extra crap the armor needs?



Because there's a lot of sensors on 'Mechs besides optical sensors.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Karagin
03/31/15 08:06 PM
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Nothing is going to get rid of the dust trail or the noise and most of the stealth on Polish tank, Hey CRAY I got to see them in person this past October during the Combined Resolve 3 rotation 1st BDE 1CAV did with NATO, and as I was saying it's to stop ATGM that home in on electronics and oh wait for it, ECM units. So really it's not stealth like what is found on the Nighthawk F117 or the B2 or the two waste of money and time fighters, the F22 and F35s.

Effective electronics? Really? Yeah uhmm, let's see the Streak system is effective but then there is the ammo that is still there if you don't get a lock and that pesky hit...boom. Then you have normal GECM, which never had really defined rules tell the Mater Rule book came out and even then didn't quite cover everything. Then you had the rules in the Tactical Handbook, better but folks knew those were optional and ignored them. Then came Max Tech, yeah better still but still did nothing for the average level 2 games, then we had the lets copy D&D core rule books idea...

They are only effective if the other side is using things to make them worth using. And none of the stuff was that effective in 1989 since there were no cut and dry rules for ECM, in fact the only real ECM rules were in Battleforce, one paragraph and that was it till the Clans showed up and folks were complaining...but all of this is not really important since, I have no plans on adding stealth armor to the tank or any tank. VTOLs, con-fighters, aerospace fighters sure, but not mechs or vehicles.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Retry
03/31/15 09:42 PM
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Quote:
CarcerKango writes:

Um, there are penalties to yourself...it treats you as being under Guardian ECM and increases heat I think.


True, but it doesn't directly impact you on a fusion engined tank if you already have the heat sinks to mount the armor type and don't plan to mount those advanced electronics such as Artemis, Targeting Computers, and C3 systems. This design has the heat sinks thanks to the engine and doesn't mount the advanced electronics. Removing the (poorly placed) ERMLs that are clearly installed for no other purpose but to use up the base 10 heat sinks for GECM and stealth armor reduces your armor by a very slim amount, and improves your survivability greatly at medium and long ranges.
Karagin
03/31/15 09:53 PM
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There is the catch Retry, you lose out on what you can mount with the use the armor since are paying for the heat, you only have 9 heat sinks left now, so you either for go that extra ton of armor or that extra ton of ammo to make up for it if you go with any large damage energy weapon system, or are you suggesting that a unit in the game that as you so nicely and clearly pointed out has issues with taking motive systems critical given how the to hit chart shows, you are willing to risk not having that extra ton around? The so called stealth armor offers nothing to the vehicle that would give it any protection to make up for not having that extra, beyond the modifier to the roll to hit it.

The stealth armor you are so thrilled with has none of the cool real world features of the likes like what the Russians mount on their tanks like strobe lights that work to confuse fire and forget weapons etc...but tell us again how wonder this armor is when you end up needing to use more weight to make up for losing a free heat sink and thus lose out on using IS weapons like the average PPC and even more so with the ER Large Laser or the ER PPC.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
03/31/15 10:01 PM
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So to sum up things we have a vote for more ammo for the guns. A vote for more armor. A vote to waste a heat sink and go with stealth armor and GECM. And a vote to either increase the tonnage as well as lower it. Seems that no one has a real solid idea of what is needed however, a few of the ideas could be looked at, for example the ammo could in a campaign setting become an issue as could be the need for a faster version which could lead to a lighter design. Those two can be looked at in my honest opinion as they would more then likely be something that would be considered by the company to fix or improve upon.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Retry
03/31/15 10:21 PM
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Quote:
Karagin writes:

There is the catch Retry, you lose out on what you can mount with the use the armor since are paying for the heat, you only have 9 heat sinks left now, so you either for go that extra ton of armor or that extra ton of ammo to make up for it if you go with any large damage energy weapon system, or are you suggesting that a unit in the game that as you so nicely and clearly pointed out has issues with taking motive systems critical given how the to hit chart shows, you are willing to risk not having that extra ton around? The so called stealth armor offers nothing to the vehicle that would give it any protection to make up for not having that extra, beyond the modifier to the roll to hit it.



I'm not going to address most of this, as I'm not sure even you know what you're talking about.(9 heat sinks left? If Stealth Armor only used one point of heat every single vehicle design I'd ever make would use it.)

"The so called stealth armor offers nothing to the vehicle that would give it any protection to make up for not having that extra, beyond the modifier to the roll to hit it."

"The so called Clan Large Pulse Laser offers nothing to the vehicle that would give it any additional deadly firepower in comparison to the clan extended ranged large laser to make up for losing two tons in weight, beyond the modifier to the to-hit roll."

See the basic logic flaw in your reasoning yet?

Quote:
The stealth armor you are so thrilled with has none of the cool real world features of the likes like what the Russians mount on their tanks like strobe lights that work to confuse fire and forget weapons etc...but tell us again how wonder this armor is when you end up needing to use more weight to make up for losing a free heat sink and thus lose out on using IS weapons like the average PPC and even more so with the ER Large Laser or the ER PPC.



...Except that's exactly what happens in Battletech. At medium and long ranges, battletech missiles(and every other tank-mounted weapon) has more difficulties hitting, effectively "confusing" the systems. The GECM inherent to tanks will have the same effect with advanced Artemis systems and decrease the accuracy of each hit that does get through. The armor shouldn't be used in conjecture with heavy energy weapons, which this design clearly does not. It requires 10 heat sinks, which is why I advocated the removal of the (useless) ERMLs too, but if you don't like stealth armor even with a 1 heat sink misconception, I doubt I'd be able to convince yourself outside of completely obliterating you in numerous battletech matches with stealth armor forces.
Retry
03/31/15 10:44 PM
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Quote:
Karagin writes:

So to sum up things we have a vote for more ammo for the guns. A vote for more armor. A vote to remove the fixed-foward ER medium lasers in order to take equipment with serious, actual combat value in the form of stealth armor and GECM. And a vote to either increase the tonnage as well as lower it.



FTFY

Quote:
Seems that no one has a real solid idea of what is needed however, a few of the ideas could be looked at, for example the ammo could in a campaign setting become an issue as could be the need for a faster version which could lead to a lighter design. Those two can be looked at in my honest opinion as they would more then likely be something that would be considered by the company to fix or improve upon.



Hehe, genuinely laughed out loud here.

Out of curiousity, where on this base design would you cut tonnage to find your additional ammunition capacity? The ERMLs? As much as I keep saying they're useless, they do exist to utilize the heat sinks. If you take those off, you may as well change the engine to a lighter fuel cell, unless you won't have a chance to use your SFEs to refuel your FCEs. Armor? It's already rather thin...

Interestingly I already made a lighter design. It's faster, almost has the same armor protection, a little over half the cost of one Sytg... And utilizes stealth armor.

(And for the guy who asked, my Unnamed tank close to the top would cost 1,956,500 C-Bills without the stealth armor and GECM, and also have 1.5 extra free tons. If I really wanted to I could make this tank 45 tons by shaving half a ton of armor, turning the tank into a 1,647,200 C-Bill tank w/ 1.5 free tons with normal armor and 1,991,575 C-Bills with the fancy stealth gizmos. Basically 20% price hikes for more than 20% additional effectiveness per chassis.)
Karagin
03/31/15 11:13 PM
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We each play the game differently Retry.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Retry
03/31/15 11:18 PM
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I could load my 100 ton mech with BAR-5 commercial armor to save a couple tons of weight for my weapon systems.

It *is* a different play style, a different design style. Not all play/design styles are equal, or even rational.
Karagin
03/31/15 11:19 PM
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Thank you Retry. Now moving back to the tank, if you wish to building your take on things then do so and post a new topic. Thanks.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Retry
03/31/15 11:46 PM
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Why? I already built the take.
ghostrider
04/01/15 01:30 AM
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I had asked. So it would be closer to being able to buy 2 tanks for the price of the larger one.

But I wasn't suggesting removing the ecm. Just the armor for comparison.

Still didn't answer the engine question. But if it is fusion, then adding something in place of the ecm and stealth armor might make it a little more survivable.
If it is standard, you could use mgs or other electronics as well. Pair ecm with a probe on 2 variants.

As for the ammo supply on the original posted unit. It is what it is. The ammo is fine for a tank that won't last long in combat. The lasers cover a good range when you run out. Only suggestion with that would be move them to the turret, or rear, since that would be the most likely way you would use them. Running as you ran out of ammo and survived that long.
But it is just a suggestion.
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