the_tick_rules
04/24/15 02:14 AM
68.62.55.57
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I've been designing a ship in heavy metal aero and have been looking for canon ways to get some more usable tonnage (it's 2.5 million tons so it's as big as it gets). I ruled out using a sub-compact core because outside of the possible location of comstar archives that is pretty much lost right? I thought about making an XL engine because I noticed all ships only had standard engines and when I went to custom engine screen XL was there as an example. Do all ships only have standard engines cause of just cost and resource restrictions or is it a thing they aren't allowed to have?
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Retry
04/24/15 02:29 AM
76.7.238.104
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Warship XL engines are certainly not canon, and sub-compact drives have to be used on warships 25 kilotonnes or lighter.
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Cray
04/24/15 05:31 PM
97.101.96.171
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Sub-compact cores are only available to ships under 25,000 tons in any case.
There is no such thing as an XL engine for small craft, DropShips, space stations, or WarShips. They have a single type of engine.
Compact, XL, XXL and other engine variants are for 'Mechs, fighters, and combat vehicles only.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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GiovanniBlasini
04/25/15 07:20 PM
75.80.176.62
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Sub-compact KF cores wouldn't save you any tonnage anyway. In fact, they'd eat tonnage. They take up 50% of your total vessel mass, and cannot mount docking collars. They're only sub-compact in the sense that they allow for WarShips under 100,000 tons (think Bug-Eye).
Member of the Pundit Caste
"Which side are we on? We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We're evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go. I'm surprised you didn't know that." -- Col. Saul Tigh, BSG2003
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the_tick_rules
04/25/15 10:21 PM
68.62.55.57
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Hmmm that's not what my system reports. compacts take 45.25 percent of the mass and sub-compact takes 20.38 percent. for my 2.5 million that hundreds of thousands of tons. I'm guessing since heavy metal aero only lets you make a custom core to replicate these percentages it bypasses those restrictions maybe? Unless heavy metal aero is old enough that is no longer reflects rules properly? I had to manually add a piece of equipment to replicate the large naval comm suite and I gave up on trying to adjust the numbers to replicate an ARTS system.
Edited by the_tick_rules (04/25/15 10:24 PM)
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ghostrider
04/26/15 01:15 AM
76.89.120.217
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2,500,000 is a long ways from 25,000. But that is from a non canon program.
I have yet to hear a canon software that does construction rules so this is kind of a sore point.
Since others have posted units that use non canon references, there isn't much reason why warships should be restricted.
As a personal note, I would request you put that in any designs you put on the forums. Let us know it is not canon. Thanks.
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Cray
04/26/15 12:20 PM
67.8.171.23
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Quote:
the_tick_rules writes:
Hmmm that's not what my system reports. compacts take 45.25 percent of the mass and sub-compact takes 20.38 percent.
Your system is using someone's house rules. Tactical Operations p. 344 has the first published canonical rules for sub-compact cores: 50% of the ship's mass and only available for ships of 5,000 to 25,000 tons, and no docking collars allowed.
Quote:
Unless heavy metal aero is old enough that is no longer reflects rules properly?
To my knowledge - Karagin could correct me - HMAero's last major update predates Tech Manual (first pub. 2007), Tactical Operations, and Strategic Operations.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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the_tick_rules
04/26/15 12:49 PM
68.62.55.57
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:
2,500,000 is a long ways from 25,000. But that is from a non canon program.
I have yet to hear a canon software that does construction rules so this is kind of a sore point.
Since others have posted units that use non canon references, there isn't much reason why warships should be restricted.
As a personal note, I would request you put that in any designs you put on the forums. Let us know it is not canon. Thanks.
Good idea I'll do that.
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GiovanniBlasini
04/28/15 09:02 PM
76.243.24.105
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Quote:
the_tick_rules writes:
Hmmm that's not what my system reports. compacts take 45.25 percent of the mass and sub-compact takes 20.38 percent. for my 2.5 million that hundreds of thousands of tons. I'm guessing since heavy metal aero only lets you make a custom core to replicate these percentages it bypasses those restrictions maybe? Unless heavy metal aero is old enough that is no longer reflects rules properly? I had to manually add a piece of equipment to replicate the large naval comm suite and I gave up on trying to adjust the numbers to replicate an ARTS system.
Pretty much. Rick threw in that "sub-compact KF core" into HMA with his own numbers - that's not something FASA, FanPro or Catalyst ever published.
IIRC, it was just a placeholder for you to be able to do custom stuff, but the tablet I have HMA on right now just bricked itself until I can plug in a USB keyboard to enter my Bitlocker password, and my other PCs with HMA on it are at home, so I can't verify that.
Member of the Pundit Caste
"Which side are we on? We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We're evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go. I'm surprised you didn't know that." -- Col. Saul Tigh, BSG2003
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the_tick_rules
04/29/15 02:10 AM
68.62.55.57
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Quote:
GiovanniBlasini writes:
Sub-compact KF cores wouldn't save you any tonnage anyway. In fact, they'd eat tonnage. They take up 50% of your total vessel mass, and cannot mount docking collars. They're only sub-compact in the sense that they allow for WarShips under 100,000 tons (think Bug-Eye).
So if they can't have docking collars and take more tonnage then what positive thing do they do to justify their existance? Is it just fluff of being so small you can fit them on tiny ships?
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Drasnighta
04/29/15 10:43 AM
198.53.98.65
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That's it, exactly. Tiny, Tiny Warships.
CEO Heretic BattleMechs.
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Cray
04/29/15 06:08 PM
67.8.171.23
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Quote:
the_tick_rules writes:
Quote:
GiovanniBlasini writes:
Sub-compact KF cores wouldn't save you any tonnage anyway. In fact, they'd eat tonnage. They take up 50% of your total vessel mass, and cannot mount docking collars. They're only sub-compact in the sense that they allow for WarShips under 100,000 tons (think Bug-Eye).
So if they can't have docking collars and take more tonnage then what positive thing do they do to justify their existance? Is it just fluff of being so small you can fit them on tiny ships?
See: Bug Eye.
Subcompact cores were primarily used on spy vessels that were disguised as DropShips. (No, they couldn't land. They were still WarShips.) They blended in with local traffic and made (per TR:2750) "naughty picture runs," so-called because people on target planets assumed the Bug Eyes were using ultra-high power spy cameras to image people sunbathing or swimming in skimpy 28th Century bikinis and speedos. These were more innocuous than spy satellites or "real" WarShips.
Presumably, they also had usage as private yachts.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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ghostrider
04/29/15 08:30 PM
76.89.120.217
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I would figure they would also have been used to run special forces onto a planet undetected. They may not be able to use dropships, but shuttles and fighters are another story. Also assassinations would be another good use.
Normal business people would not be escorted by a warship, so wiping out the dropship they are on would be the next best thing. Jam any transmissions and you got it.
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the_tick_rules
04/30/15 01:52 AM
68.62.55.57
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Not sure if it's a big enough issue to warrant another thread but it is a canon thing so I'll ask it here. Are weapon bays allowed to go above 70 capital scale damage? A startup tip says if the damage goes above 70 the weapons will be spread around. I looked at other ships and none of them go above 70. But as I'm noticing heavy metal aero sometimes does funny things. My custom ship in the other thread has weapons that go above 70.
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Retry
04/30/15 01:55 AM
76.7.238.104
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I don't get why you guys are getting on the 50% tonnage requirement for the sub-compact core when the compact core also requires a good fraction of a vessel's mass in a drive. Then there's standard drives that require, what, 90% of a jumpship's mass?
It's probably possible to design these subcompacts as either pocket transport ships(being able to carry more cargo for less total mass has it's perks compared to standard jumpships) or pocket carriers (I'd estimate that a fighter compliment of 40 bays or a small craft capacity of 30 bays would be feasible in a 25k tonner, and being able to jump without being attached to an actual full-sized jumpship allows for some independent operation that could prove useful.
Although the cost multiplier on the subcompacts seems a bit excessive. Too bad costs appear to be static in the BT universe.
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ghostrider
04/30/15 11:51 AM
76.89.120.217
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When you consider that comstar had the market with certain engines like warship engines in the begining, I find it highly unusual that the fed com could buy any of them. Comstar was hostile towards them during the helm core expansion. They would have charged them extremely high prices.
And most of this is based on the developers whims. How is it that the state with the largest manufacturing base, as well as the best tech base (fedcom) was not able to increase production of things like jumpships yet the others that were supposedly lacking materials for their production could keep up?
Comstar had stores, but they would have to buy materials themselves, since they did not control more then terra.
Germanium I believe is one of the key elements needed for jump cores. Why would anything like that be sold to a foreign buyer?
But flaws like this have already been pointed out.
I think the core situation came about as they made a few ships that didn't fit into their main construction rules so they had to improvise.
I believe the costs for warships is the only reason the developers could come up with to avoid land battles becoming more of support then the main emphasis of the game. Can't reach planet, can't fight with mechs.
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Drasnighta
04/30/15 11:59 AM
198.53.98.65
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:
Comstar had stores, but they would have to buy materials themselves, since they did not control more then terra.
Germanium I believe is one of the key elements needed for jump cores. Why would anything like that be sold to a foreign buyer?
Because outside of the Warship market, Germanium only has a resource use in Jump Jets, AFAIK.
So that being said, if you are not using your Germanium stockpiles, and indeed, your mining industry is slowing down because of said stockpiles - turning that resource into liquidity to be spent on *other* mediums can be useful, even when it is to a foreign power at expanded rates - DOUBLY so if you can get something unique from them that you need in the transfer.
That is simple economics.
CEO Heretic BattleMechs.
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ghostrider
04/30/15 12:08 PM
76.89.120.217
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I was thinking more along the lines of starving the hostile enemies of resources they need. Frankly, if the enemy can't move troops because of a lack of jumpships, then you have them where you want them.
Sell them the things they need to invade sounds backwards. Money is great, but what is worth more? Several billioin c-bills or the enemy not being able to invade your area?
Now I did gloss over friendly states outside your own, so I will give you that one.
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Cray
04/30/15 02:39 PM
67.8.171.23
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:
When you consider that comstar had the market with certain engines like warship engines in the begining, I find it highly unusual that the fed com could buy any of them. Comstar was hostile towards them during the helm core expansion. They would have charged them extremely high prices.
If you take matters out of context like that, yes, it looks weird. However, to supply some context:
ComStar was hostile toward the Federated Suns (less so the Lyran Commonwealth) in the 3028-3052 period, under ComStar's old regime. There were plenty of reasons for that, ranging from ComStar's religious beliefs (in which ComStar was supposed to be the Inner Sphere's savior, but the Federated Suns repeatedly stole the show) to things like the war between ComStar's and the Suns' intelligence services in the 3030s.
However, that changed abruptly after Operation Scorpion, which is when ComStar tried to suddenly take over the Inner Sphere and Clan invasion corridor at once. Scorpion failed, and Precentor Martial Anatasious (sp) Focht shot the last old school Primus for her epic stupidity. He took over, implementing a very secular regime in ComStar that didn't worship as many toasters as the old one.
Focht, aka Fredrick Steiner, was much friendlier toward the Federated Commonwealth as they had a common enemy: the Clans. Imperfectly friendly, though: he did embargo engine supplies to the Suns in the mid-3050s for some diplomatic squabble, which held back the completion of the first Fox corvettes.
Quote:
And most of this is based on the developers whims. How is it that the state with the largest manufacturing base, as well as the best tech base (fedcom) was not able to increase production of things like jumpships yet the others that were supposedly lacking materials for their production could keep up?
The Federated Suns and Lyran Commonwealth built JumpShips all through the Succession Wars (see: DropShips & JumpShips, House SBs, TR:3057), and greatly expanded JumpShip production in the 3050s and 3060s like everyone else.
However, just having a large, sophisticated industrial base doesn't meant you can build everything on a whim, at once. The US has nearly the largest manufacturing base in the world (lost the title only in 2012), but there are operations outside its capabilities: it would need years to get up to speed to manufacture the largest ships in the world, since it lacks shipyards able to handle the largest hulls; certain enormous nuclear pressure vessels (e.g., supercritical water reactors) for nuclear power plants are currently outside its capability and would require years to work through the learning curve; it doesn't have the fabs for the most cutting edge microchips; it has slid backwards in a few areas since the Cold War and defense cuts resulted in some specialized military labs and factories closed and the associated work forces retired. And so on.
All those deficiencies can be rectified with time. But they don't happen instantly.
The Federated Commonwealth was in a similar situation with WarShip fusion engines. It took some years to get up to speed building those engines. During the interim, it bought engines from its ally ComStar. By the time WoB shut down access to the engines, the Commonwealth was building WarShip fusion engines and was building WarShips at several sites.
If it wasn't for the FedCom Civil War, the Federated Commonwealth would've ended up with the largest fleet in the Inner Sphere, enough to challenge the Clans when the Tukayyid treaty ended in 3067. It had a complete plan to develop the required industrial infrastructure, build the Fox as a learning project, move on to cruisers, carriers, and battleships (see StratOps' discussion on this plan) until it was ready for the Clans. Instead, its vast web of manufacturers were disrupted by the FedCom Civil War and before the Lyran Alliance and Federated Suns' companies could make nice, the Jihad followed up and targeted all those vital facilities.
Similar things happened to all the Houses on specific examples of technology. For example, the Draconis Combine was slow to figure out double strength heat sinks, leading to a lot of designs with ER PPCs but single heat sinks.
Quote:
Comstar had stores, but they would have to buy materials themselves, since they did not control more then terra.
Three points:
1) ComStar controlled the entire Terran system, including the mines of Mercury, Mars, Luna, and the asteroid belt. They weren't short of germanium or other elements.
2) The Star League had concentrated most of its high-tech military industry in the Terran System. ComStar inherited that and spent most of the 3050s trying to get it ready to fight the Clans. See: Jihad Conspiracies for a lengthy discussion of just what ComStar/WoB had going for them.
3) ComStar had the largest banking and telecommunications operation in human space, crossing all borders. Its currency was the international standard. Offering to reduce the interest rates on loans to a House government could probably inspire generous donations of any needed element, germanium or otherwise.
Quote:
Germanium I believe is one of the key elements needed for jump cores. Why would anything like that be sold to a foreign buyer?
Because you have more than you can use in your JumpShips? JumpShip production was slow; it didn't use all the germanium instantly.
Quote:
I believe the costs for warships is the only reason the developers could come up with to avoid land battles becoming more of support then the main emphasis of the game. Can't reach planet, can't fight with mechs.
Nope, that's not what we did. Costs of WarShips aren't that big compared to a House's budget. Rather, WarShip production was kept low, and then shattered by the Jihad, FC Civil War, and Wars of Reaving. It never went back to the epic levels seen during first years of the Terran Hegemony. JumpShip production got pretty high in the 3080s-3090s as the Republic of the Sphere relocated its population, but not WarShip production.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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ghostrider
04/30/15 06:05 PM
76.89.120.217
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Ok so the impression that alot of factories were shut down to a lack of resources wasn't really true?
I understand the time line that before Focht took over why comstar was against the suns if not the entire commonwealth. They did try to destroy the New Avalon Institute of Science laboritories that contained the helm core in it.
The fact they didn't expand their operations in Galax (I believe) long before they did made little sense. I can understand the lack of improving Kathil yards since Michael Hasek was not to be trusted.
Now the interdiction comstar did in the fourth succession war killed alot of the federated suns commerce base kept alot of upgrades and building spurts down until fixed, it still does not make sense they didn't increase the production lines of alot of military things. And honestly, they still sold things like jumpships to other states that were not friendly to their home affiliation. We don't sell uranium to Iran for a good example.
Now the resources in Terra is not something I have seen in any of the books, though it may be in the newer ones. Not sure.
I would like to say concentrating the tech in the terra system isn't quite right. The hegemony had a lot of factories built in it, otherwise the lyrans wouldn't have been able to get defiance industries. Al'nair and Quentin are others that had factories built by star league in them, or so it is implied.
The lack of using all the ore in jumpship production should have resulted in cutting back on mining the ores to compensate for the excess. And increasing the production of the ships as well. As it was implied, alot of factories were dormant from damage and lack of supplies. If there is this excess, why not focus on getting more up and running?
So the text in the books telling that they slowed production of the warships because of the cost was bs? Not the novels, but some of the updates had mentioned this. Kurita was one to stop spending the funds to build them, though the fedcom is the main topic implied here. The confederation is another no funds for it state.
Also if there are resources and money, other then the need to make a war to stop it, what else would have? The lack of facilities goes back to the implications of plenty of factories shut down due to loss of resources and experience to run them.
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