Karagin
06/21/15 09:28 AM
70.118.139.48
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This came up in a discussion with some folks as we compared scifi settings, I noticed that the factions in Battletech don't use any kind of space mine (aka similar object to the old sea mines) in defense of the known jump points or in areas that they don't want attacked.
What are the thoughts on this as to why they don't use them?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
06/21/15 12:02 PM
76.89.120.217
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The only real reference to anything like a mine field is when comstars explorer corps was searching for the clans. They said they found more then a few jump points littered with debris that crippled more then a few ships.
As for why they don't use it? There is a few things that come to mind.
First would be, once mined, it would be extremely difficult to clean it up once you don't need it anymore.
Second is where do you jump if not the safe points of the zenith and nadar points. Pirate points entail more risk then necesary for continued use.
Third is what happens when your own forces or allies forget to avoid that area. Something like a new navigator
Fourth might be the size of field needed to cover the entire area. Not sure just how large the actual area that can be used, but looking at some of the stories and fluff, some very large invasion fleets have sat at jump points. Not sure if they jump to one point then move off to the side, since some jumpships don't really have the thrust to move quickly.
Fifth would entail navigation for your own forces for non jump points. Only a few things come to mind that would not be busy areas that would need protection like this.
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ghostrider
06/21/15 12:30 PM
76.89.120.217
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Now the good side of it.
If you set up right, you can fix the ships that get caught in the fields for repairs or use as scrap.
More then likely the area you want protected should remain pretty intact, though you will still need some defenses. Pirate points will always exist.
Depriving the enemy of ships is always a plus as well. Depending on how cruel you want to be, you could allow them to starve or sufficate if you don't want to take prisoners.
Or use the crews as slave labor if you don't trust them.
Yeah a little morbid but it does happen.
Granted ransom is a better idea then the others.
Depending on what survives, you might gain alot in resources and supplies.
Mechs and vehicles don't care if the ship lost atmosphere or got smoke filled.
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Cray
06/21/15 12:32 PM
50.88.145.42
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First, there are space mines available as an alternate ammo for screen launchers. See TacOps. They're convenient for dropping in the path of someone chasing you, like a spike strip in a Car Wars game. However, they stink for area denial.
Second, mines aren't used frequently because, well, space is big. BT weapon ranges are small.
Consider a standard jump point:
1) A standard jump point is a three-dimensional volume millions, even tens of millions of kilometers across. A space combat hex is 18 kilometers across. I'll let you do the math on the number of mines needed to make all those hexes dangerous.
2) Standard jump points are not in orbit around the star. JumpShips, recharge stations, and DropShips at the jump point have to aim their stationkeeping drives at the local star to avoid plummeting into it because of gravity. That applies to mines, too. See point 1 and think of the refueling challenge.
3) A standard jump point doesn't have a sharp border. A standard jump point is just a special version of the "proximity points" that form a sphere around an entire star system. If you move far enough from the usual "standard" jump point, your navigational target numbers go up as you start using proximity points instead of standard points. DropShips & JumpShips has a nice illustration of the proximity limit sphere surrounding a star system.
4) Beyond proximity points, which hug the proximity limit of a star system, space is one vast jump point. It's only when you get close to stars or planets that you can't jump. Sol's proximity limit is about 10 astronomical units from the sun, leaving Uranus, Neptune, Pluto (~40AU), the Kuiper Belt (30-50AU), Oort cloud (10,000 AU+) all outside the proximity limit. The bigger planets have their own tiny proximity barriers, but the point is: space is 99.99999999999999999999+% valid jump point.
Together, points 3 and 4 mean trying to mine a standard jump point is a futile exercise. You might surprise the first scout or first attacker who uses some small standard arrival zone, but it's a one trick pony after the message is out. People just use the rest of infinite space to arrive. Throw in point 1 and you see that mining standard jump points become untenable as an area or movement denial system.
You could distribute mine fields around a recharge station, which should be slightly inside the proximity limit in any case.
There are two other space mining scenarios to consider: orbit and pirate points.
Pirate points:
Pirate points are entirely different case than standard jump points. They're still big - potentially tens of thousands of hexes across and deep - but they're smaller to the point that you can think about some mining options. Another key difference between pirate and standard jump points is that pirate points are (near) L1 Lagrange points, so it's feasible to put objects around them into semi-stable orbits that don't require constant stationkeeping fuel consumption.
However, your classic schlock sci-fi minefield (like in Galaxy Quest) won't cut the mustard. You're still trying to cover a vast volume. Something with a little reach is better than the screen launcher mines, like teleoperated capital missiles.
Those make great mines. You can pre-launch them in advance. So long as you have enough operators for them, they'll be available to engage targets 50 or more hexes away. You'll need a space station with teleoperated capital missile launchers, though. You might not cover the entirety of a pirate point, but you'll keep potential invaders guessing and discourage them from using that pirate point.
Of course, they still have a wide range of other jump points to use, but mines at a pirate point could deter fragile invaders from appearing within 2-3 hours of your planet.
Why aren't they used? Because the Star League, which had a bunch of WarShips and the technology to deploy capital missile stations, appeared to prefer to use standard points to avoid the high navigational target numbers of pirate points. Meanwhile, the Succession Wars Houses didn't have the technology for space mines. But they're viable again after 3050.
Planet Orbit
Planetary orbit is another choke point where you can use mines, but it's not going to be a barrier. A planet like Earth is 711 hexes in diameter. You'd need a lot of mines in orbit to provide an impenetrable mine field.
However, you could provide put a few space stations in orbit with teleoperated missile launchers. If they follow 3 orbits (2 polar, 1 equatorial), you'll be able to launch rings of teleoperated capital missiles that will eventually cross paths of any invader who stays in orbit long enough. You couldn't provide universal coverage at a density guaranteed to stop an invader in one volley, but you could make their orbital operations difficult.
Summary
There are niche roles for space mines in BT. When you factor in lack of technological availability in major war eras and limited areas to use them, you can see why they weren't used often.
But they are available as a screen launcher ammo and as teleoperated missiles.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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ghostrider
06/22/15 02:41 AM
76.89.120.217
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I do have some questions on this.
You say it is a one trick pony, but how is the next ship to know the area is mined, if it can not get that information out of the system?
I would think that assumes you either have an hpg on the ship, or can jump back out.
And did they change the fact that not all jump points require a station keeping thruster to point towards the star, especially if the sails are deployed? I thought there were some that the solar winds were enough to push them out of the low gravity area of the jump point. And no, I am not suggesting you put a normal sail on the stuff. But you could do something to keep it there.
Now maybe I read more into the question then I should have, but I was thinking not just explosive mines would be used. Normal space junk is just as effective as a mine if a ship materializes inside the field. Anything from simple damage to a ruptured fuel cell or core could come from it. Or did they make it so an incoming jump drive clears the debris from the point?
Now as for the amount of space a jump point actually is, I would agree it is a very large area to try to mine.
And this doesn't cover using miles of weighted cable on a spinning platform. Just enough to try and catch the ship as it jumps in. Not really cost effective for some, but then if you can not prevent the destruction of your assets, it might be cheap enough to force the enemy to never try it again.
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BobTheZombie
06/22/15 02:53 AM
198.45.169.254
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Kinda off what Cray said, there are some. I thought that the Capellans used them because they are crazy about mines, but here's the wiki article, and it doesn't mention them: http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Space_Mine
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Cray
06/22/15 08:54 PM
50.88.145.42
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:
I do have some questions on this.
You say it is a one trick pony, but how is the next ship to know the area is mined, if it can not get that information out of the system?
I would think that assumes you either have an hpg on the ship, or can jump back out.
Or you don't jump until you hear back from the scout, with a set time limit. 
Quote:
And did they change the fact that not all jump points require a station keeping thruster to point towards the star, especially if the sails are deployed? I thought there were some that the solar winds were enough to push them out of the low gravity area of the jump point. And no, I am not suggesting you put a normal sail on the stuff. But you could do something to keep it there.
All standard jump points have gravity stronger than solar wind on jump sails. TacOps does offer a real solar sail that can keep a small satellite at a standard jump point.
Quote:
Now maybe I read more into the question then I should have, but I was thinking not just explosive mines would be used. Normal space junk is just as effective as a mine if a ship materializes inside the field. Anything from simple damage to a ruptured fuel cell or core could come from it. Or did they make it so an incoming jump drive clears the debris from the point?
Since the 1980s (Star League Sourcebook and DropShips & JumpShips), jump drives are established as destroying mass at the point of arrival. See the famous Mississippi Queen - Richardson disaster during the liberation of Terra. Dumb, dead mass will get wiped out. The rules for being caught in an arriving jump field are the same in DropShips & JumpShips, Battlespace, AT2R, and Strategic Operations.
What you need for space mines are guided, powered mines that can monitor large areas of space and rocket toward an arriving ship, like the "attack mines" of modern naval warfare. Teleoperated missiles cover that.
Quote:
Now as for the amount of space a jump point actually is, I would agree it is a very large area to try to mine.
And this doesn't cover using miles of weighted cable on a spinning platform. Just enough to try and catch the ship as it jumps in. Not really cost effective for some, but then if you can not prevent the destruction of your assets, it might be cheap enough to force the enemy to never try it again.
How long are these tethers, and how do they cover trillions of cubic kilometers?
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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ghostrider
06/23/15 12:14 AM
76.89.120.217
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There has to be a 'set' area ships jump into. Otherwise busy jump points would have alot of accidents as fleets move thru them, like the points around defiance industries on hespestus (Spelling). Even Tharkad, New Avalon and the rest have lots of jumpships popping in. If the fluff and novels are correct, they suggest ships move out of the main areas to avoid this issue. I seriously doubt ever jumpship in the innersphere has it's own position when entering a system. That would make jump coordinates almost unique to every ship.
I don't remember seeing anything in the original dropships and jumpships book about an incoming jump clearing the jump area. I don't have battlespace or anything after it for updated aerospace information. I guess they changed this after several novels came out dealing with comstar searching systems to find the clans. I want to say when they sent the rom agent into clan space, the book said comstar lost a few jumpships due to debris and stuff left at jump points.
With the lithium batteries jumping into a system and back out became a tactic again, but if you don't have one, you will be waiting a week (charging time) to find out IF you can invade a system? I really don't see many forces doing that unless they are sure the enemy knows they are coming. Which would mean the points would be protected as best they can, so pirate point more likely.
As for the gravity at the jump point, it looks like they did change that. I know there was some fluff to suggest otherwise.
And last, the tethers may not cover the area, but positions right, you can use them to send crap into areas you detect the ships coming in. Or did that change that formula as well?
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Cray
06/23/15 06:31 PM
50.88.145.42
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:
There has to be a 'set' area ships jump into. Otherwise busy jump points would have alot of accidents as fleets move thru them
There's three reasons they wouldn't have lots of accidents:
1) Space and standard jump points are really big.
2) JumpShips are much less numerous than ships on 2015 Earth's oceans and far, far less numerous than airplanes in the skies over a big city. JumpShips are rare - there only some thousands of them with 2000 Inner Sphere star systems to visit. Tharkad and Hesperus would be busy if they had a couple dozen JumpShips present at once.
3) Just to make the point again: space and standard jump points are really big. They're much bigger than the skies over big cities and they're much bigger than sea ports. They're much bigger than Earth. They have much less traffic.
In all of canon BT, there has been a single case of JumpShips accidentally landing on top of each other (the Mississippi Queen and Richardson). That involved over 1000 JumpShips stampeding into the Terran system and doing so in tight formation where the guns of ships could cover each other on arrival, meaning they were all jumping into something smaller than a cube 900 kilometers on a side instead of using the endless trillions of cubic kilometers in a standard jump point. They arrived in waves; a ship in an early wave had its fusion rockets fail and it was stranded in the tiny arrival zone the SLDF was using when the next wave arrived. In short, the SLDF did everything possible to have JumpShips land on top of each other and created the single accidental case of JumpShip overlap in canon.
StratOps does note a couple of things about traffic control at jump points:
1) After arrival, JumpShips usually putter across the proximity limit and recharge there so no one can land on top of them. They're only in the jump point to arrive or depart. This makes sloppy traffic control a lot safer.
2) There do tend to be designated arrival and departure zones to keep things safe. It's safe to arrive blindly outside them because no one will be outside the designated zones.
You could mine those arrival zones or the space around recharge stations, but invaders are the least likely to use those areas.
Quote:
I seriously doubt ever jumpship in the innersphere has it's own position when entering a system. That would make jump coordinates almost unique to every ship.
True, but there's enough room at standard jump points for that to be possible.
Quote:
I don't remember seeing anything in the original dropships and jumpships book about an incoming jump clearing the jump area.
DropShips & JumpShips (second section, p.29) notes that the K-F field "puts a great deal of stress on the fabric of space itself" creating forces that "rip apart objects". AT2R changed the radius to match up with map hexes and rolled the explanation of the IR pulse and emergence waves discussed in DS&JS into that destruction process as "clearing space dust and debris" and dumping any changes in velocity the JumpShip experiences. The Star League Sourcebook's description of the Mississippi Queen - Richardson disaster contributed a lot to the description of what JumpShips do on arrival.
Quote:
As for the gravity at the jump point, it looks like they did change that. I know there was some fluff to suggest otherwise.
Change what? DropShips & JumpShips (p. 4, first section) noted that stationkeeping drives were used to hold JumpShips in position against a star's gravity at a jump point. The position of standard jump points (stationary over the poles of a star since Mechwarrior 1st edition, BT 2nd edition, DS&JS) makes it obvious that a star's gravity applies at the jump points. See the diagram on p. 31, second section, DS&JS.
Quote:
And last, the tethers may not cover the area, but positions right, you can use them to send crap into areas you detect the ships coming in. Or did that change that formula as well?
Since Explorer Corps / BattleSpace, it has been possible to detect arriving ships. The problem is, they might be hundreds of millions of kilometers away - emergence wave detection occurs at multiple AU (150,000,000 km = 1 AU). You can spot a JumpShip arriving across a star system. No BT weapon has that range (only capital missiles can accurately hit something at ranges beyond 900km), and other sensors have a much shorter range.
If the JumpShip arrived at the same jump point as your flinger, it will still probably be tens or hundreds of thousands of kilometers away. The reasonable material strength of a tether is going to limit its flinging to a few kilometers per second, giving the JumpShip hours to dodge the debris. Try a teleoperated capital missile battery instead.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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