Rules Question (Total Warfare Rules)

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FrederickSteiner
07/20/15 05:02 PM
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Good evening, we played two games so far and have two rules questions

1. If two vehicles end up in the same hex (as per Stacking):

Would the weapon range upon firing be 0 (for minimum range purposes)?

What firing arcs would the two vehicles have towards each other?

2. If a vehicle gets successive motive damage which give a result of -1 (or more) to Cruise speed as well as halved Cruise speed:

Would Cruise speed be halved before the negative modifiers are applied or afterwards?

e.g. Cruise speed 4 at half and -1
-> 4/2-1= 1 ??
-> (4-1)/2 = 1,5 rounded to 2 ??


Edited by FrederickSteiner (07/20/15 05:33 PM)
CrayModerator
07/20/15 08:47 PM
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Quote:
FrederickSteiner writes:

Good evening, we played two games so far and have two rules questions

1. If two vehicles end up in the same hex (as per Stacking):

Would the weapon range upon firing be 0 (for minimum range purposes)?

What firing arcs would the two vehicles have towards each other?



The range is 0, and that means they can't shoot at it each other so facing is moot.

I'm not sure what the equivalent BMR rule is, but Total Warfare p.106 says:

"A unit cannot make a weapon attack against another unit occupying the same hex. See Point-Blank Weapon, p. 114, and Infantry, p. 212, for exceptions."

The only PD weapons are A-pods and B-pods (anti-battle armor claymores mounted on 'Mechs only, and 'Mechs can't stack with vehicles).

Quote:
2. If a vehicle gets successive motive damage which give a result of -1 (or more) to Cruise speed as well as halved Cruise speed:

Would Cruise speed be halved before the negative modifiers are applied or afterwards?

e.g. Cruise speed 4 at half and -1
-> 4/2-1= 1 ??
-> (4-1)/2 = 1,5 rounded to 2 ??



Apply damage in the order it occurs.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
ghostrider
07/20/15 10:36 PM
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I did not see anywhere in the bmr about point blank shots not being allowed. The say hidden troops can fire when a unit is in and adjecent hex.

I do not see why a unit at range 0 could not fire certain weapons. I would think how to enter the hex compared to each other would be the key here.
I would think turrets and since a mech can move arms and torsos twists only something with barrels such as a rifleman might be unable to use arm weapons by the torso mounted lasers should work fine. Minimum range weapons would probably be useless.

I guess the newer rules did away with this.
It is stupid as mgs and flamers would be in their element at this range.
Retry
07/21/15 12:53 AM
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At range 0 such weapons would be too close to effectively track infantry, which would basically have surrounded the tank or mech at this point.

(Similarly non AA units shouldn't be able to easily track aircraft as they currently can...)
ghostrider
07/21/15 01:36 AM
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Technically, the unit would be firing as it moves. Also, with your example of infanty, would that mean any unit with mgs on other sides be able to use them as well?
And this only calls into question about infantry. How would this affect a vehicle or mech being the enemy target?
Also it sounds like infantry at a range of 0 would be unable to fire as well, though I am assuming this since nothing was said about it. (I know the post was about vehicles but this would help others, including myself)

And the AA units does bring up a good question which might be good for the d8 ideas. A specific radar unit might add +1 to hit air units only. Might suffer when engaging ground targets because of weapons placement.
FrederickSteiner
07/22/15 01:59 PM
217.93.57.245

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Thanks for the answers.

So Point-Blank range means that, interestingly, one could underrun the other's weapons and drive into another units hex to avoid receiving fire from that unit.

Rare occasions when that would be tactically helpful I guess, like saving that single round till reinforcements arrived...
ghostrider
07/22/15 04:11 PM
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It does bring up the question of why a vehicle can not run over infantry (physical attack).
I can understand a hover craft not doing it, but the tracked and wheeled ones should be able to.

There are other times when running into a non shooting range would help, such as main weapons jammed, or in the case of a mech, overheating. It may also be the only thin that saves a unit out of ammo, from the main guns of another unit. Not likely, but possible.
Retry
07/22/15 11:36 PM
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I don't think hostile vehicles can actually enter each other's hexes. I definitely know that Mechs can't because of that rule where two mechs can't share the same hexes. If my memory holds out and that's true, that means the range 0 issue for two opposing armored forces is simply a nonissue.

Range 0 infantry would be able to fire at each other (and a hostile vehicle) easily. It's just the matter of pointing the gun in their direction and firing. Doing so with a gun mounted on a multi-ton turret is considerably harder to do at point blank, which is where the tracking issues at range 0 comes in.

I wouldn't have AA units suffer when firing on ground targets. Historically speaking, many types of SPAAGs were often used in the fire support role and were actually extremely effective in it, because infantry don't like being on the receiving end of rapid firing cannons. It would be enough to simply have non-AA units have very little chance of hitting conventional aircraft and aerospace fighters even in optimal conditions.
ghostrider
07/22/15 11:59 PM
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The penalty was suggested to keep ALL units from being declared AA units. Just a way to try to avoid abuse. Now with the issues you are talking about, maybe a penalty of say 4 for all non AA ground units firing on air craft might be what you are looking for?

In the older books up to 4 units can be in the same hex with only one being a mech. 2 for each side, so you could have 2 enemies in with 2 of yours, barring multiple mechs.

Now with the turrets, it seems you are imagining the old world war turrets that took a few seconds to turn. If this is true, then firing at multiple targets in the 10 seconds with targets on opposite sides of the tank should not be allowed. Even the +1 penalty for a second target wouldn't cover it.
And as I pointed out, waiting until you are stopped in the hex before firing isn't likely, but the game is not real time in actions, so this is an issue with some things.
Technically a mech has to be within 30 meters of another one to go to physical combat. Wouldn't the spacing change as the mech does? One would say they are at the edge of the hex they are in to do this, but that would be like saying an aircraft carrier could be wedged into a boxed canyon and use all sides to launch and land from. It just doesn't work.
And the fact the weapons could be mounted in ball turrets on the unit seems to be overlooked. The infantry would not instantanously be surrounding the unit. But again, real time is the limits to this.
Retry
07/23/15 12:11 AM
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I like the +4 penalty idea, that'd make fighters much more relevant, as well as units like the Partisan and the Rifleman.

I'd say that the balancing factor could be a C-Bill multiplier to install targeting systems and mechanical components that can effectively track aircraft. From a strategic perspective that'd stop everything from simply being declared AA units as it'd be inefficient to do so cost-wise.
FrederickSteiner
07/23/15 01:55 AM
79.222.196.31

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(Page 57, under Stacking)
"[...] Though a unit may enter a hex occupied by an enemy unit, it may not leave that hex in the same turn. [...]"

This omits Mechs, as there is only one Mech allowed in a hex, but allows two enemy vehicles (or more) in one hex.

We're viewing that as a bit of an artifact, as we're going back to a time where there was only one unit allowed per hex.

Tactically, we had a situation of a Rommel and a Von Luckner having been shot to pieces. The Rommel was immobilized, the Von Luckner was in the next hex, with three points of frontal internal structure remaining. The Von Luckner could have 'parked' itself safely alongside the Rommel, both waiting for a friendly unit bailing them out.
ghostrider
07/23/15 03:23 AM
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So technically a unit making a pass on another one would have to stop in the same hex if they are moving directly past it? That is screwed up. Savanha masters would really get screwed up.
And this would screw up units moving thru a pass that is only a hex wide. Everything would stop each time it had to move by immobile unit. And that would mean you could prevent any movement by land by crippling 2 tanks enemy tanks there so they could not retreat past them.

Now as for the situation, if the 2 tanks were on the same side, and another unit was firing from outside that hex, it would not stop the shots. You pick the target before the to hit rolls. Artillery and swarm missies could damage both, or an exploding mech.
Now if both tanks were enemy tanks, then it would work, though I think that rule is a bit screwed up.

Does this mean you can tow a pair of broken enemy units into a pass or even over a wider area to prevent them from leaving?


Edited by ghostrider (07/23/15 03:25 AM)
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
07/23/15 07:53 AM
71.170.164.190

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Quote:
Cray writes:

Quote:
FrederickSteiner writes:

Good evening, we played two games so far and have two rules questions

1. If two vehicles end up in the same hex (as per Stacking):

Would the weapon range upon firing be 0 (for minimum range purposes)?

What firing arcs would the two vehicles have towards each other?



The range is 0, and that means they can't shoot at it each other so facing is moot.

I'm not sure what the equivalent BMR rule is, but Total Warfare p.106 says:

"A unit cannot make a weapon attack against another unit occupying the same hex. See Point-Blank Weapon, p. 114, and Infantry, p. 212, for exceptions."





The last that I knew was that any units that occupied the same hex they automatically where facing each other and would be firing into each others front ark.

I dont like either rule. I would make a house rule that any units that where in the same hex where assumed to have there back ark touching the line behind them and what ever side is facing another unit was the ark that could fire or be fired on. In the case of both units entering from the same hex side the last unit that entered the hex can pick if it is on the left or right of the other unit and both units would be firing onto the others side ark. In the case of multiple units on each side all units of one side must be on the same side aka no flanking on both sides of a target.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
ghostrider
07/23/15 11:04 AM
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I know one of the books had all damage being applied to the front armor. I just don't remember which.

That should actually be if they were coming straight at each other. If one comes up from behind, then it is front armor hits on it, while it's opponent is from the rear.
I would also suggest that any weapons that doesn't have a minimum be able to fire if it is in the firing arc it covers, ie the flamer in the rear of a hunter should be able to shoot anything behind it. one target limit.

Now splash damage and rams will be up to the players for things like srms or ac 10/20 shots. Most don't use it, but vehicle explosions might be used for splash damage as well.
FrederickSteiner
07/29/15 02:47 PM
80.136.195.178

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We have two more questions:

3. We searched the book, but didn't find any indication that elevation difference between units is calculated into weapon range.

So, say, a unit at ground level 0 is firing at another target that is standing on top of a level 5 cliff. The units are 3 hexes apart. Would the range be 3 hexes or an equivalent 3+5 hexes?

The same goes for airborne units. Does a VTOL at height 10 add a range difference of 10 when firing at a target on level 0?

4. What are the rules for LOS when both units are standig at different elevations?

Say a unit is standing on a level 2 plateau, 5 hexes from the edge. Another unit is standing on level 0, three hexes from the plateau.

How do I calculate whether there is a LOS between those units? The book states that a unit is only hidden when it's standing directly adjacent to the "hillside". But this gets kind of silly once the hillsides has multiple levels.

I would argue that units that are standing on the edge of a level 7 cliff would be more able to look down (and be seen) as units that are a couple of hexes away from that edge.


Edited by FrederickSteiner (07/29/15 02:49 PM)
Drasnighta
07/29/15 03:20 PM
198.53.98.65

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3. There is no accounting for Elevation Differences in Range, until you start getting into full-on Altitudes.

4. The core rules are as the core rules are... There was a big lot of "Dead Zone" calculations and rules in MaxTech, and I left them there...

If there's something "in the way", then its "in the way."...
CEO Heretic BattleMechs.
CrayModerator
07/29/15 06:04 PM
50.88.145.42

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Quote:
FrederickSteiner writes:

We have two more questions:

3. We searched the book, but didn't find any indication that elevation difference between units is calculated into weapon range.

So, say, a unit at ground level 0 is firing at another target that is standing on top of a level 5 cliff. The units are 3 hexes apart. Would the range be 3 hexes or an equivalent 3+5 hexes?

The same goes for airborne units. Does a VTOL at height 10 add a range difference of 10 when firing at a target on level 0?



Levels of elevation are much smaller than hexes (6 meters versus 30 meters), and a quick look at Pythagorem's theorem shows they wouldn't alter the distance much except in extreme cases. The rules thus keep it simple and say that elevation doesn't matter.

That'd be a bit ridiculous if the VTOL climbed to level 1000, but it just means someone who wasted ~100 turns climbing to level 1000 can still be shot down by the bored folks on the ground.

Quote:
4. What are the rules for LOS when both units are standig at different elevations?

Say a unit is standing on a level 2 plateau, 5 hexes from the edge. Another unit is standing on level 0, three hexes from the plateau.

How do I calculate whether there is a LOS between those units? The book states that a unit is only hidden when it's standing directly adjacent to the "hillside". But this gets kind of silly once the hillsides has multiple levels.

I would argue that units that are standing on the edge of a level 7 cliff would be more able to look down (and be seen) as units that are a couple of hexes away from that edge.



The Total Warfare rules, p100, notes LOS is blocked if:

The level of the terrain or feature is equal to or higher than the level of both units; or
The terrain or feature is adjacent to the attacker and equal to or higher than the attacker’s level; or
The terrain or feature is adjacent to the target and equal to or higher than the target’s level.

However, it makes exceptions on p.99 (Adjacent Ground units):

[Ground] Units in adjacent hexes always
have LOS to each other, unless one unit is completely underwater
and a unit in an adjacent hex is not (see Terrain Modifiers,
p. 109). Likewise, if both units are in adjacent building hexes
but at different levels, LOS may not exist (see Combat Within
Buildings, p. 175).


So if you're standing on the edge of a level 7 cliff in a hex beside a 'Mech at the bottom of the cliff then, yes, you can shoot at each other. (Adjacent ground units rule, p99.)

Or, per your example, if you're on the edge of the cliff and the targets at the bottom are several hexes away from the side of the cliff then you can shoot at them (p. 100 rules - they're not adjacent to the terrain feature.)
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
FrederickSteiner
07/30/15 01:51 AM
80.136.200.58

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Thanks for the answers, and, I didn't want to bash the rules ;-)

We will look into Tactical Operations one day (I want my fire and smoke :-D ), and then perhaps take some inspiration from Maximum Tech.


Edited by FrederickSteiner (07/30/15 01:51 AM)
CrayModerator
07/31/15 11:50 AM
97.101.96.171

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Quote:
FrederickSteiner writes:

We will look into Tactical Operations one day (I want my fire and smoke :-D ), and then perhaps take some inspiration from Maximum Tech.



Sometimes with these core books, .pdfs are very handy because they're text-searchable. If you home in on the correct key words, you can search hundreds of pages in instants.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Norkathathorr
01/23/24 04:14 AM
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hello,

In a topic I was looking for it was not precise. so I decided to write to you as one who knows the rules better.
here is the situation.
on elevation, level 3 is standing archer. 7 hex away is locust, and next to him in LoS is the beginning of elevation lev1. if not the elevation that Archer is standing on I'm sure that Locust will have cover from his lev1 next to him. that is clear. But will it apply if I shoot from above? Is Lev 3 enough to negate his cover? is it possible?
ghostrider
01/23/24 12:12 PM
45.51.181.83

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I believe, but not certain, in the situation stated, the locust has a hill between it and the archer, not that it is standing next to it. Yes, it sounds picky, but it needs to be noted.
The range might allow the locust partial cover, as it does have some angle, but I believe there is not enough to give it partial cover. unless the locust is prone. I will assume there is nothing higher in between the two mechs. Its been a while, but I do believe there is something that discusses this very thing. If they were in adjacent hexes, I beileve they could not shoot each other.
The game is not good about level changes being sheer cliffs or not for a single level rise. So house rules might take care of this. It will slow down the game, as you might need to determine all level changes before a game, which is probably why the rules don't cover this. This could well represent a rock outcropping, or some other oddity.


As for the original discussion, I find the rule of not being able to fire on a unit in the same hex as a bit odd. Given the hex is 30 meters, I don't see why weapons without a minimum range, that is in the firing arc facing the enemy unit, could not fire., providing they have not fired that round.
Speed should not be an issue, except to determine the hit numbers, as strafing fighters are going faster than most ground units, which can be shot at.

Hopefully, someone more up on the rules will chime in.
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