Pegasus Scout Hovertank (SPG)

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Retry
08/02/15 06:17 PM
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Pegasus Scout Hovertank (SPG)
IS experimental
35 tons
BV: 404
Cost: 877,625 C-bills

Movement: 8/12 (Hover)
Engine: 105 ICE

Internal: 20
Armor: 104
Internal Armor
Front 4 26
Right 4 19
Left 4 19
Rear 4 21
Turret 4 19

Weapons Loc Heat
Thumper Cannon TU 5

Ammo Loc Shots
Thumper Cannon Ammo BD 20

Equipment Loc
CASE BD
----
This Pegasus hovertank was modified to house a 105mm short howitzer in the turret. The benefits for putting an artillery cannon on a light hovercraft were obvious: Cheap and mobile "mini artillery" capable of providing extremely close supporting fire at a moment's notice. The SPG proved to be an extremely effective infantry killer, with concentrated formations of unarmored infantry and battle armor taking massive casualties at the hands of Pegasus SPG lances.
happyguy49
08/03/15 12:48 AM
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Yep. It seems the new(ish) Battletech artillery rules are MURDER against regular infantry and battle armor.. each individual suit takes the full damage IIRC! Crazy.

This craft could kill many times its own value of infantry. In-universe it might make sense for it to just be a configuration of an existing Omni-hover, but ICE engine = super economical!
ghostrider
08/03/15 02:30 AM
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Why have a turret? I would figure the vehicle would be on the ground when if fires. But then I would think the hover craft wouldn't be that stable to fire artillery from especially in rapid succession.

And the thumper is the 2 point artillery piece. Got range, but it light damage.
Works, but unless they changed it, the sniper has direct fire capabilities. That would work much better with the turret, but yes, the weight makes that almost impossible to deal with on this frame and speed. Might be better to come up with something other then the pegasus.

But if it works, that is all that matters.
Retry
08/03/15 10:27 AM
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It's an artillery cannon without an absolute minimum range like a normal artillery piece, for the purpose of close-ranged artillery support. Specifically, the 10 ton weapon has a range profile of 4/9/14 with a damage of 5/2 with half of the scatter distance. The disadvantage is that the Cannon has 1/3rd of the firepower of the actual artillery piece for some reason, meaning multiple hits are needed to kill battle armor. It's still deadly to infantry in general though, even if it's not OHKOing entire platoons.

The weapon actually fit perfectly on the Pegasus Scout Hovertank chassis.
ghostrider
08/03/15 12:37 PM
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I was talking about mounting the sniper on the chassis. Just to make sure that is clear.

I forgot it was 5 for direct hit. The 2 is splash damage for the rest of the hex.
Now as for 1/3rd the power, I thought the thumper was 5, sniper 10, and long tom 20. Where is it saying the actual artillery piece is doing 15? I understand they changed things since the clan invasion, and would like to know if this is one of those things.

And the range is onboard or map sheets? The sniper was the only one that could fire onboard. They probably changed this as well. I know it was stated before in another thread, but I have forgotten the results.

But being on a hover craft, it does give you options other artillery doesn't. If the enemy doesn't have hovers, aircraft, or ships, sitting out on the water becomes a very nice option. Out of range of normal weapons and pepper the enemy. Nice way to remove towers and such. More likely to crit the thing to death then completely destroy it.

As for not killing the ba in one shot, the fact you can bleed them comes in handy. Just splash damage would finish off units after a while. And when you can do that from maps away, it makes it difficult to get to the enemy. Done right, pre targeted hexes and preplaced sensors would make that even more possible.
Retry
08/03/15 04:22 PM
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Data for both cannons is on the wiki. The Thumper Cannon deals 5/2 damage, while the artillery piece deals 15/5. I have no clue why they differ so much.
ghostrider
08/04/15 05:50 AM
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They changed the name of the sniper?
And I thought all three were artillery. And did they remove the long tom?
Is the wiki updated to the current rules? Or is it different?

Ok they changed them big time, unless the wiki is wrong.
It looks like they upped the damage of all of them, and gave the long tom even more splash damage.
I did forget about the arrow, but I was think tube artillery. Still. When did they change the damage done?


Edited by ghostrider (08/04/15 05:54 AM)
happyguy49
08/04/15 09:58 AM
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Thinking a bit more about this, I now think MOST heavier hovertanks should have an artillery cannon variant. A sniper artillery cannon and two tons of ammo, plenty, is 17 tons. And that cannon can kill large numbers of infantry. Only a handful of assault-class battlesuits have more than 15 points of armor. Hitting a hex is much easier than hitting the infantry themselves.

It could also be of great use in dueling with other high-speed units that are very hard to hit because of their substantial target movement modifiers. Fighting against fast mechs, fast hovertanks, WiGEs, low flying VTOLs, all becomes much easier using an area affect weapon of decent damage like the sniper cannon.
ghostrider
08/04/15 10:49 AM
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Reread how artillery works. It is difficult to hit anything moving out, since in flight time on the shot. Presighted hexes make it a little easier, since they shouldn't miss, but there isn't that many of them in most games.
Now they may have changed some of the rules in the new versions, but even with a hex shot, it is atleast a 7+ to hit, and without it being already targeted, you need to wait for the round to hit, see if it hits or scatters, then fire another round if it did scatter. You need to predict where the enemy will be at one the turn the round hits. Some games are over before the first round even hits, ie 12+ rounds. They are more for assaulting a stationary target, ie tower and such.

It used to be only the sniper could fire on board.
I understand the idea of hovers having a variant with artillery, but for the most part, the game is about the on board fight, not the sit back and fire while hoping you hit before the enemy does style of warfare. A lone piece isn't going to do much, so you need a large battery of them.
And last but not least. You need a spotter in the field. Without this, you are playing mobile battleship. Your not even sure if the enemy is on that board much less where.
This is not saying it isn't useful, but not for a fluid battle setting.
Akirapryde2006
08/04/15 02:57 PM
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:

Reread how artillery works. It is difficult to hit anything moving out, since in flight time on the shot. Presighted hexes make it a little easier, since they shouldn't miss, but there isn't that many of them in most games.
Now they may have changed some of the rules in the new versions, but even with a hex shot, it is atleast a 7+ to hit, and without it being already targeted, you need to wait for the round to hit, see if it hits or scatters, then fire another round if it did scatter. You need to predict where the enemy will be at one the turn the round hits. Some games are over before the first round even hits, ie 12+ rounds. They are more for assaulting a stationary target, ie tower and such.

It used to be only the sniper could fire on board.
I understand the idea of hovers having a variant with artillery, but for the most part, the game is about the on board fight, not the sit back and fire while hoping you hit before the enemy does style of warfare. A lone piece isn't going to do much, so you need a large battery of them.
And last but not least. You need a spotter in the field. Without this, you are playing mobile battleship. Your not even sure if the enemy is on that board much less where.
This is not saying it isn't useful, but not for a fluid battle setting.



While I wont argue with much of you said, ghostrider. For you are correct for most game situations. However when you run large unit (or even some small unit) campaign settings where time is not a factor, off-board and even on-board field guns can be decisive in battle. Here allow me to explain.

Large Unit games that are using battalion level units or larger can take on a much broader scope in game terms. As the scope of the game grows broader more different kinds of units become important to the over all battle strategy. You can in fact plan artillery in your games. But it doesn't stop there. VTOL's, close in fighter support and even Spec Ops can all be tools in a clever commander's arsenal.

The only problem is that most players don't know how to use these assets. Sure they can use Mechs and Armor on the board. Some even master using infantry. But in large campaigns where the battle lasts for days or even weeks (in game time, longer in real time) do many players know how to take in to account support units such as MASH units and repair facilities.

When our group ran some of the most historical battles, these battles lasted days if not weeks in game times. So these units did play a critical role in our games. But I have to admit, they did slow down the game to a crawl and because of that, I understand why the average player doesn't want to include them.

Akira
CrayModerator
08/04/15 06:10 PM
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:

They changed the name of the sniper?



Nope.

Quote:
And I thought all three were artillery. And did they remove the long tom?



Sniper, Long Tom, and [brainfart] are still artillery pieces and still in the game.

Quote:
Still. When did they change the damage done?



Tactical Operations.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Akirapryde2006
08/04/15 07:00 PM
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Quote:
Cray writes:
Sniper, Long Tom, and [brainfart] are still artillery pieces and still in the game.




I think you are thinking of Thumpers

though the rules do allow for Field Guns. I am a bit confused on what Field Guns are. It is my understanding that they are Autocannons on trailers for use with infantry. I could be mistaken though.

I know we have used them in the past but for the life of me, I can't think of what they are. This was never my area of focus. I was more VTOL's LAMs and Close-in Air Support.

Akira
ghostrider
08/04/15 09:18 PM
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Akira. You are very correct they do have their purpose in the game. Most of the games I have seen were fast and furious, where the amount of turns was less then 20 rounds. I will suggest that the people did not take time out to manuever more then just get into it with physical contact. We didn't do anything other then mechs verse mechs.
Large assaults were both side work on the sniping game, since anyone caught in the open was the main target for everything that could fire on it, is something people love to play. It would take some real talent to run them and actually survive with minimal damage. You will always have something go wrong and destroy a perfectly good offensive, such as the lrm 5 pack piercing the armor of a major assault mech with full armor and blow up their ammo. It happens.

I would think field guns are just normal weapons that are towed into the field to be used. I can see energy weapons as well as autocannons being used, but the power requirements would limit them in large battles.

As for the questions on the names, I was running on the implication that retry was using the current terms for the game on these items, since I stopped buying the books shortly after the clans invaded. Problem is, I didn't get some of the older ones until the newer ones were on the shelf. When I got mechwarrior 3 and they said 4 would change it all again, I gave up. No sense in spending 20+ buck only to have it all changed in a few months.
Akirapryde2006
08/04/15 09:38 PM
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:

Problem is, I didn't get some of the older ones until the newer ones were on the shelf. When I got mechwarrior 3 and they said 4 would change it all again, I gave up. No sense in spending 20+ buck only to have it all changed in a few months.



Ghostrider,

You and I have similar problems. More or less same coin different sides.

When we ran our game, it was under original Mechawrrior rules. Then we transferred our characters to Mechwarrior 2nd Edition once the game actually took off. Nearly all of my books are of this area (3020's through 3060).
happyguy49
08/05/15 09:29 AM
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Just to be clear, his Pegasus tank uses the Thumper CANNON, not the Thumper artillery piece. Two very different weapons.

The three artillery cannons are heavy and bulky but short range area affect weapons, and their shots arrive the SAME TURN they are fired IIRC. So they aren't really artillery at all in the normal sense. The area affect nature means they will kill either kind of infantry very effectively, and also make doing damage to crazy-fast and hard-to-hit units much more possible, as you are targeting a hex instead of a unit. Unless I misread the rules badly. (friendly fire damage can become a possible issue though, because missed shots scatter and still do their damage) They aren't quite as awesome at killing mechs as regular artillery because you can't use cluster ammunition (or anything except standard explosive ammo) so no sweet sweet Shot From Above damage rolls.
ghostrider
08/05/15 12:07 PM
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Thanks for the clarification. I was not aware there was a thumper cannon was in the game. I only knew of the artillery piece.

That would explain why Retry had the confusion with the pieces.
RockJock
08/05/15 04:09 PM
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The easy way to look at it is the arty is actually artillery, the cannon is a "sawed off" version, not just a howitzer cranked down to fire in a straight line.
ghostrider
08/05/15 04:44 PM
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I would think the ammunition is different between the two units. Otherwise, you will have a very powerful shot in the short range, since artillery is designed to arc and come down on the target, not go straight forward.

But that is as good of an example on the difference.
Akirapryde2006
08/05/15 07:47 PM
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Quote:
RockJock writes:

The easy way to look at it is the arty is actually artillery, the cannon is a "sawed off" version, not just a howitzer cranked down to fire in a straight line.



You do know that in reality it doesn't work that way. I understand that the game creators might have had a different thought in mind when they created the Cannon Version of an Artillery Piece.

You want a real world concept? Think of the 105mm Howitzer and the 105 mm L/52 rifled tank gun. The 105mm Howitzer has a length of 5.94 m and the 105mm L/52 has a length of 5.89 m
RockJock
08/05/15 11:43 PM
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We are in a game that is already pretty far out of the sandbox of reality. I used the shotgun as a accessable example to explain the game differences. I thought it was a more understandable concept then going with low pressure vs high pressure guns. I would really consider the BT cannon more of an anti-tank or DP gun in modern terms, and the originals are howitzers, but that's just my 2 cents.
Akirapryde2006
08/06/15 06:56 PM
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@ RockJock: I just occurred to me that my statement might have seemed as nit-picking your statement. And I can see that. And for that, I am sorry.

As for the Thumper Cannon,

For the cost in terms of tonnage and damage, it just seems like a better fit to use a Standard AC 10. It gains double the damage for two more tons.

Though I do like the concept of the I.C.E. engine. I think far too often, these engines have been over looked. While they are large and bulky, they are cheap, plentiful and easy to maintain for large scale campaigns.
RockJock
08/06/15 07:35 PM
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No worries Akira Pryde.

I like the ICE as well. My group has usually used BV AND C-Bills to balance games. If you use both the ICE can shine. The big advantage of the Thumper Cannon is splash damage again conventional infantry and armor. The AC/10 can offset that to a point with specialty ammo, but I like the Thumber concept, espeically as an offensive weapon. Think of double stacked infantry/armor defensive formations. The Thumper can sand blast quite well, not a Sniper would be better.
Akirapryde2006
08/06/15 09:05 PM
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I agree that the Thumper Cannon would be ideal in halting an infantry charge, but I am not so sure it would be any more effective against armor as it would be against Mechs. I don't see much success against those two kinds of units. However that doesn't mean this unit would not have its place on the battlefield.

But I have to ask, could the Thumper Cannon ever act like normal artillery? Or is it locked in its role of direct fire?

In terms of bang for your buck, I can see how this unit would be a strong candidate for a Mercenary Command.

One question I have about designs like this that I think the creator could answer is this.

When you are designing a weapon system such as a Mech, Vehicle, Fighter or VTOL. What takes priority:

A: Winning a single match (less than 20 rounds). Such weapon systems would be prefect for Area warfare

OR

B: Winning a Campaign (20 rounds or more). Such weapon systems could be perfectly suited on the battlefield.

If the scope is to win a war, than I can see how this design could be beneficial. Especially considering my deep love with for Artillery and Close-In support.

There are designs that I have looked at that simply make no sense in terms of military deployments (such as the Demolisher III Gauss). I have to ask myself why would a military officer want to buy this weapon system for their unit. However in the area, I could see this vehicle easily making a strong showing.
RockJock
08/07/15 12:10 AM
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I don't have the rules in front of me, but I "think" the cannon version is direct fire only.

I was going with the "effective against non mech units" because of the splash damage. In most of my games that make use of infantry and armor the players tended to use the stacking rules to use them in stategic locations, or at least grouped next to each other. In those sort of situations the splash damage of a shot on a tank damaging another tank, or supporting infantry has an advantage, especially with the crit game.
ghostrider
08/07/15 02:10 AM
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Actually any damage done to the enemy is good. Even mechs. I've seen mechs taken down with a single point of damage. Didn't stay down, but he hit to the gyro from a thru armor critical was enough to throw the players game completely in the toilet. His bad mech that he refused to reset the gunnery on because we were using new characters finally died that day from that hit. Single lrm pierced the full armored back of his mech when he was running for cover.

And with vehicles, with the increased ability to be screwed over by crits, this could very well stop an charge. As it was stated in another thread, only 2 vehicles on the same side can occupy a single hex. Move crit a pair and block that way from being used but leave them alive could very well allow you to beat then without taking alot of damage back.

Not saying it would happen often if ever, but then the simple damage done before both sides engage might actually allow you to breach the armor on one shot that would not have otherwise got thru, like an arm or leg.

And units making no sense? That would be a 2/3 unit that has nothing but mgs or sls on it. A long range weapons package is never really useless. Maybe not worth the price, but not useless. If you can hit and do damage without the enemy striking back, it has it's uses. Nice prepared position, and wreak havoc.
Retry
08/07/15 03:50 AM
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The Thumper Cannon can not act like normal artillery with long ranged indirect fire abilities. The Thumper Cannon is not effective against anything that's not a soft target, but that's fairly realistic, and it's definitely not supposed to engage such targets.

This particular weapon system is designed with a campaign setting in mind, where assets like infantry, field guns and field artillery are more likely to be used. There is a real need for close-ranged artillery support, and yet another role for fast AND cheap versions. IMO, that's where this design shines. Think of this like a 105mm Sherman, not the most potent gun ever mounted on a vehicle, but it still brings an effective HE punch on a (relatively) cheap and maneuverable chassis. Except this Sherman hovers.

Very few people actually mount dual-purpose weapons (Example:Plasma Rifle) or purpose built infantry/BA killers (Example:Artillery Cannon), stating that a few machineguns or flamethrowers mounted on the chassis will make any conventional infantry threat moot. Said weapons are mostly backups used to prevent infantry from getting close easily, and they're definitely not something you should depend on against more advanced conventional infantry and battle armor. More advanced infantry need to be dealt with using more proper tools than some mere machinegun slapped on your everyday Mech. And it still GREATLY benefits to use these in conjunction with other forces against less advanced and more conventional infantry simply because the hovercraft is capable of safely and quickly disposing them.
ghostrider
08/07/15 12:24 PM
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Mortars are the short ranged artillery. Or atleast they should be. Haven't really looked into how the game uses them, but they are short ranged indirect fire weapons in real life.

Now as for dual purpose weapons, The whole thing with infantry is when they changed how they take damage. The large weapons were great at destroying them, ie an awesome that hit with all 3 ppcs would wipe out a 28 man unit. Where I do agree it needed some tweaking, what they did was extremely overboard the other direction. And battle armor is something even harder to deal with, since you do need the heavier weapons to remove them from the field of battle, since you are very correct in the fact mgs and flamers aren't that effective against them unless there is massed amounts of them. And with the ba, by the time you can use those weapons you are already having to deal with them firing back.

Now unless the cannon does not affect armored units, it is still useful for it, though not as effective as other units.
With most units not mounting artillery, the targeting of anything other then buildings or specific spots, at least in the original versions of them, was so difficult that they were almost useless in a fluid fast moving battle. Flight time was horrible as well, unless you had a more static battle. But as with alot of things, there are holes in units that are specific to hunting certain things. I would rather have the original pegasus tank, since it could handle infantry and other things more then specific missions like the anti infantry. The srm 6 packs can be used to remove infantry off the field, and still be very useful against mechs and armor.
Don't think it means this particular design is horrible, but given the fact you need all around units more then specific ones, alot of designs need to focus on everything.
It is sad, but ultimately the end result.
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