Archer IIC

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happyguy49
08/17/15 01:47 PM
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Archer IIC

Mass: 85 tons
Tech Base: Mixed
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Experimental Tech
Era: All Eras (non-canon)
Tech Rating/Era Availability: X/X-X-X-A
Production Year: 0
Cost: 24,690,593 C-Bills
Battle Value: 3,381

Chassis: Unknown Endo-Steel
Power Plant: Unknown 340 Fusion XL Engine
Walking Speed: 43.2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64.8 km/h
Jump Jets: None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor
Armament:
4 (CL) iATM-12s
1 (CL) ER Large Laser
1 (CL) ER Medium Laser
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown

================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Endo-Steel 130 points 4.50
Internal Locations: 4 LA, 3 RA
Engine: XL Engine 340 13.50
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks: (CL) Double Heat Sink 15(30) 5.00
Heat Sink Locations: 1 LL, 1 RL
Gyro: XL 2.00
Cockpit: Small 2.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA+LA+H R: SH+UA+LA+H
Armor: Standard Armor AV - 256 16.00

Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 27 40
Center Torso (rear) 11
L/R Torso 18 27
L/R Torso (rear) 9
L/R Arm 14 28
L/R Leg 18 34

================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(R) (CL) ER Medium Laser HD 5 1 1.00
(CL) ER Large Laser HD 12 1 4.00
2 (CL) iATM-12s RT 16 10 14.00
2 (CL) iATM-12s LT 16 10 14.00
(CL) Targeting Computer RA - 1 1.00
@iATM-12 (HE) (5) RA - 1 1.00
@iATM-12 (ER) (10) RA - 2 2.00
@iATM-12 (5) RA - 1 1.00
@iATM-12 (HE) (10) LA - 2 2.00
@iATM-12 (ER) (5) LA - 1 1.00
@iATM-12 (5) LA - 1 1.00
Free Critical Slots: 0


I thought of some design like this when reading up on the new Improved Advanced Tactical Missiles. I really didn't like the regular ATMs, I thought their weight, bulk, and heat, did not balance out their greater range and flexibility compared to an equivalent weight and bulk of Streak SRMs and Clan LRMs. But these IMPROVED ones.. they are nice. Streak LRMs that can go out to 27 hexes! Or, at shorter range, with 3 damage per missile, an iATM 12 does 36 damage automatically every time it hits! (144 missile damage possible in ONE TURN at short range if this thing hits will all four iATM 12's in one turn.)

So I wanted to make a Clan design using them, and since there isn't a IIC Archer in the books, here we go. It has almost the same number of missile tubes as the original ancient Archer, (48 vs 40) so this design would look very similar. I also kept the battle fists of the original; plenty of Clan mechs still mount hand actuators even though they disdain physical combat? Although that may be falling by the wayside in the 32nd century; witness those Falcon mechs with talons, designed for Death from Above attacks.

Also still has some backup lasers, with a maximally-efficient 1 ton targeting computer. But the two lasers are strictly for backup, there isn't enough heat dissipation to alpha-strike everything (especially if you get target locks on all four iATM systems.)

Armor is near maximum. Mobility is the same as the classic Archer, though this design is heavier. (about par to other IIC designs as far as differences with the original.) Thoughts?
ghostrider
08/17/15 02:06 PM
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Just because they do not like physical combat does not mean they do not use hands on mechs. Combat is the major role for battle mechs, but that does not mean they are not used as mobile loaders. Using them to help build their base on a new world, move supplies in order to get into battle faster, or even hold up the tarp for the commander to have shade.

Not sure of the range of the atm series units, but if it's not past 21, I would think the vulture/mad dog would fill this role better. Not saying this design wouldn't be loved by those that aren't allowed to touch an omni, mind you.
If I do know right, the atm has no minimum, so short range isn't a real issue. The lack of criticals is an issue. Hard to do much modifying it without losing something like the hands.

Could this be done on a lighter chasis?
I know the clans don't care much about costs.
But this is just a question, not a challenge or demand.
Karagin
08/17/15 06:57 PM
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Why not just build this on a Clan chassis with all Clan tech? Would fit the role of IIC better then going with a mixed tech base, which is more the C designator then IIC.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Retry
08/17/15 07:10 PM
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This mech should use hand actuators simply because the Archer had hand actuators. IIC mechs are basically refits and mild revisions, maybe 5 tons heavier or lighter. They don't greatly change the design like removing the arms up to the upper actuator and increasing the tonnage by 15.

The ATM's ER missiles have a range of 9/18/27, standard has a range of 5/10/15, and HE has a range of 3/6/9. Both standard and ER missiles have a minimum range of 4. There's also some special ammunition types such as some sort of ATM infernos and a magnetic thing which can be fitted, whose ranges I don't recall. ER deals 1 damage per missile, HE 3, and standards 2.

This design could probably be done lighter and closer to the original specs of the Archer by using quad iATM9s and taking off some heat sinks. My preliminary IIC design I made today to test this had 13 tons of standard armor, 6 tons of ammo, two CASE IIs to protect said ammo, and had all of the side torso crits full while every other section was otherwise untouched. Even has a standard engine.
Retry
08/17/15 07:16 PM
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Quote:
Karagin writes:

Why not just build this on a Clan chassis with all Clan tech? Would fit the role of IIC better then going with a mixed tech base, which is more the C designator then IIC.


Why design an entirely new chassis when you have plenty of perfectly good mech frames in stock that does the trick? Although, this doesn't appear to be the case in this circumstance, it's too different from the original Archer to be a simple refit.

I don't know why he selected a mixed tech base for this mech, it doesn't appear as though he used any inner sphere technologies.
RockJock
08/17/15 07:27 PM
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At 85 tons I don't see it using the chassis off the starndard 70 ton Archer without major modifications.
ghostrider
08/17/15 09:07 PM
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Have you seen the phoenix hawk IIC? it went from 45 tons to 80 tons. And the Giffin IIC lost 15 tons.

And I agree with Karagin. if you are going to make a clan mech, make it clan. Don't do the mixed tech.
What on the mech isn't clan?
The gyro or cockpit?
The armor or actuators?

And the purist question. The era can not be all eras, since 3025 did not have atm, much less improved ones, as well as xl gyros or small cockpits. I didn't say anything before, but this seems to be a trend coming up.
happyguy49
08/18/15 04:00 AM
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I never really considered the IIC line of mechs to be EXACT refits. They aren't just like the original mech, but with Clan weapons.. they are the CONCEPT of the original mech, but with entirely different, and better, technology. Some of the fluff is unhelpfully ambiguous about this, in some cases saying that IICs are the rebuilds of captured IS mechs IIRC? That doesn't really match up with the stats of the existing book IICs.. for example the 80 ton Phoenix Hawk was mentioned.

This Archer IIC is a long range, missile-based fire support mech like the original... but it kicks much more ****. Also, with a couple tons of the high-damage short-range iATMs, it can completely WRECK **** at point-blank range as well. I am in love with the Streak capability of the iATMs at any range.
Retry
08/18/15 05:01 AM
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It's not the concept, it's the same mech chassis, sometimes modified to be heavier or lighter. IICs aren't "captured" stuff, they're often leftovers from the Kerensky Exodus that have been modernized.

It's pretty powerful. definitely an impressive missile boat, and it pays dearly with its BV and C-Bills. Its effectiveness is tied completely into its missile battery and the high technology that comes with it, which can be actively disrupted via AECM or passively dampened by anything with reactive armor. Against a reactive armored target, for example, a full iATM hit will deal only 15 points of damage (5 halved rounds down to 2 7x, 14 dmg plus 1 = 15 dmg). To maximize your effectiveness, you need to get close to use your HE ammo without dying. Being a averagely speedy assault with an XLE, no jump jets or advanced defensive technologies, that'll be difficult to do.
Karagin
08/18/15 06:24 AM
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No IIC are rebuilds of IS mechs, they are new machines built based on older mechs, aka the original mechs, using 100% Clan tech, and with the exception of the Phoenix Hawk, normally are a few tons lighter or heavier then the mechs they are based on/off of.

The mechs you are thinking of that are a mix of IS and Clan tech are the "C" variants, those original came about in the TWYCROSS scenario book and then had more fun when they record sheets showed up in the old record sheet books, as well as being used to a degree by the Dragoons.

So as I said if you are going to use the IIC concept then follow the IIC mechs and make this a total 100% Clan tech mech, otherwise it would be better to rename it to a "C" variant.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
ghostrider
08/18/15 11:46 AM
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There is one mech that was built during the invasion.
The Jenner. It was not distributed to the star league before the fleet left. And from the looks of the stats on it, it was not refitted, but built from the ground up with clan tech. 35 ton mech with ferrous fiber armot, endo steel, and a 315 xl engine. The endo and armor itself means new.

Now the interesting thing is the stats in the beginning where it tells where the parts are made say 4 ermls and the streak 4 pack, but under the stats by the picture and under capabilities is says 2 clan srm 6 packs with a clan built streak 4 pack. This is not under variants. And the picture shows the 6 packs being fired. Nice proof reading before printing.

And all the refits in the 3055 tro are different weights then the original. The hawk is the largest change.

Now back to the archer. The suggestions I made were only to see if there was anything that could be done. The er large laser seems like an afterthought to waste some weight, as it doesn't really seem to flow. It would probably be used more often then you would think. But then clan remakes tend to run a little hot.
happyguy49
08/18/15 06:39 PM
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I like having a couple lasers on it.. the original Archer did, including a rear-firing one. (the ER medium is rear-facing) The ER large has really good range, only takes up one crit, only weighs 4 tons.. it's one of the very best Clan weapons as far as efficiency. As you probably won't get target locks on all four iATM systems every turn, you actually have some heat dissipation to spare much of the time, so why not cap off the TC accurized ER large with some of the iATMs.

Everything is Clan tech on this.. it isn't mixed. Clan endo steel, XL engine, all weapons. I'm pretty sure the Clans would be able to make XL Gyro's and small cockpits in the 3100's despite them being originally invented by the IS. I used "mixed" in the software is all, just out of habit to free up all options.

I don't see a homeworld Clan creating or using this. It has Society-invented primary weapons, they'd probably turn their noses up at that association.
Retry
08/18/15 08:51 PM
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The clans *should* be able to make XL Gyros, but they don't. I can't find a single clan design with an XL gyro, or a compact one for that matter. Same with the cockpit type.
Karagin
08/18/15 10:19 PM
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And the Inner Sphere SHOULD be able to make Clan tech weapons with no need to buy them from the Sharks, but wait they don't.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Retry
08/19/15 12:34 AM
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*Can't*
For whatever reason the Inner Sphere has not been able to keep up in weapons development.

That's probably because it's easier to keep everyone at the same tech level instead of dealing with new and upgraded equipment every year to reflect technological advancement. Such a predominantly military culture would probably maintain an upper hand in technology anyways. Well... with the Society's Nova CEWS and iATMs, they kind of already did.
ghostrider
08/19/15 01:15 AM
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Last I knew of, clan tech was not made in the innersphere, barring clans in the innersphere. You could not walk into defiance and by a clan lrm launcher. And to be honest, if you could, why bother with the old lrm launcher?

Same with double heat sinks. Why use innersphere ones? The space they take isn't worth it anymore, and cost would be a crap answer. The innersphere would have made it a hell of alot cheaper by the latest time they are dealing with. Which goes back to other qeustions.

I do see the second line units using something like this as it deos have the assault potential they all want. Look at the hunchback IIC. That is all or nothing. It is a complete waste of resources in anything other then an arena duel.
RockJock
08/19/15 01:45 AM
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In 100 years the IS has not been able to built Clantech affordably, even though The Lyrans and Kuritans have pet clans of their own. At the same time it is economical for the IS to build at least 9 different large laser variants (Large Laser, ERLL, LPL, Large Variable Pulse Laser, Bombast Laser, Large X-Pulse Laser, Binary Laser, Large Hyper Laser, Laser Pulse Module)? Makes no sense to me.
Retry
08/19/15 02:07 AM
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Binary Lasers are literally double-barreled large lasers. Nothing particularly difficult to replicate on that.
Bombast Lasers are *not* economically viable or practical. The way they're fluffed, they're mostly weapons of arena mechs, which don't require their one-offs to be economically viable.
ER lasers and pulse lasers are fairly old technology. The industrial base already exists/existed for them.
X-Pulse lasers are basically add-on upgrades to the normal Pulse laser.
I've never heard of Large Hyper Lasers or Laser Pulse Modules.
ghostrider
08/19/15 03:21 AM
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That is the problem with the game continuity. Not affordable for the innersphere to make? I would take the clan erppc over the innersphere one all day long. Less weight, more damage with a longer range? Same with the gauss rifle.

It is crap, since the innersphere came up with things like the c3, and things like armor piercing ac shells along with gyroscopic rounds as well? And let's face it. The clan xl engine wipes the living hell out of the IS one as well as heat sinks.

It's just developer crap that keeps the IS from making the stuff, not affordability. The clans were wiping the IS forces off the field with it. In a straight up fight, the clan tech is clearly superior. It was ambush tactics and heavy forests and such that finally allowed the IS any real victories without heavy losses.

And I agree. Why have so many different models of lasers? I believe you missed the re engineered laser as well.

Just looked up the binary laser, and what a piece of crap. 16 heat for 12 damage with a range of a regular large laser for a ton more then having 2? Heavy laser all the way there. More damage, less weight, same range.


Edited by ghostrider (08/19/15 03:24 AM)
Karagin
08/19/15 06:20 AM
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The original TRO3050 stated that the Inner Sphere could make weapons on the same level as the Clan, but hand waved it away by using the idea that the cost was insane. And saying they can't is as it has been pointed out crap, since we have seen them revamp SL tech, come up with new weapons and electronics etc...

The same would hold true for mechs, IF a Clan is going to purpose build IIC mechs then they would have at some point came up with XL gyros and cockpits and other things or at the least stole the plans from the IS either through industrial espionage or via reverse engineering from captured mechs.

And no it's not easier to keep everyone with their own tech base, it lends to all kinds of issues and the current Republic stuff is clear showing of this issue.

The current mech we are poking at, has mixed tech on it, and again the issue comes back to this, would the Clans build the mech as shown? IF we go off the rules, no they would not, and the reason why is because add in what ever hand waving FASA/CGL speak you want, the Clans don't have the ability to make XL gyros etc...YET they can come up with Protomechs and combine several systems into one aka the Nova stuff. Seems we have more then just continuity issues in the game.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
RockJock
08/19/15 12:31 PM
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Thanks Ghostrider, that makes ten.

Retry, the last two are new, and in interstellar Ops. The re-engineered, VPL, and X-Pulse are all used in TRO 3150. Even if you cut the 10 down to the three above, the standard and blazer laser, pulse and ER you still have 7 classes, with the expense and production lines of each, yet a Clan ER that most of us would take first if available isn't built? The IS isn't even building the clan prototype/intermediate lasers after 100 years? It just doesn't jive for me. It can't just be a cost factor, not when you have Compact and XL components being standard on combat fielded designs
Rotwang
08/19/15 02:55 PM
94.226.248.136

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We all know the real reason is that Clan tech is made with special ingredients like Unicorn Tears, the happy thoughts of children and the corns of a giant.
happyguy49
08/19/15 03:28 PM
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I really don't see the Inner Sphere Clans failing to adapt and adopt new Spheroid tech. THEY HAVE ALREADY DONE THIS, multiple times.

Hardened Armor. Rotary Autocannons. Angel ECM. Composite internal structure, and Endo-composite. Triple-strength myomer. The fluff says the HAG line of Gauss rifles is based on the Lyran Heavy Gauss (which itself is used in a configuration of at least one Clan Omnimech.) I even found an example in the Falcon Jade Hawk, of an IS heavy gyro being used. Those examples are from memory and a few minutes looking through the wiki at tech articles; I'm sure there are others.

As for the IS not being able to make Clan spec weapons, I have no idea. Karagin mentioned that they technically CAN make exact copies of Clan equipment (I remember that fluff also.. about how the NAIS could make an exact copy of a Clan ER large laser, but it costs as much as a whole lance of mechs to do so.) Maybe there is an explanation in the terms of materials; if the Clan stuff is made out of incredibly hard-to-make composites-of-composites or some crazy stuff. (or maybe even with periodic elements that don't exist yet; such as those theorized super-heavy elements that DON'T come apart in a fraction of a millisecond... if they can be made to exist they are thought to have some pretty far-out properties.)

I think it should also be said, we may not see any more advances coming from the homeworld Clans. They apparently killed their ENTIRE scientist castes as a result of the Society uprising. Clone all the Einsteins you want, with no living knowledge base to start with you are set back decades or a century or more.
Rotwang
08/19/15 04:10 PM
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It just doesn't hold up, it would be like a book telling the story of how the allies were dumbfounded that their hot air balloons and paper kites were useless against the Fokker Triplane and then it goes on how they were still dumbfounded that their helium balloons and nylon kites were useless against the Me 262 jet fighter and that the ECM balloon and bladed kite was STILL useless against the MIG 15 ...

The Clans may have had a head start when it came to technology, but they had to do a lot from scratch as their limited infrastructure (part of it destroyed by their own civil war ...) could only go so far, but somehow all the king's men and all the king's horses still couldn't do the job even a century later.

It's simply arbitrary handwaving. Even if it had to be produced in zero-g factories using hard-to make components, the incentive to build the infrastructure would be too much to ignore.

My guess is that the Clans would simply have to continue to improve tech to stay ahead, ER Heavy PPC, Pulse Blazer, ER Heavy Large Pulse Laser, LB-15X, Clan ELRM etc ...
ghostrider
08/19/15 05:08 PM
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They built and maintain warships and the engines for them comes from comstar/wob on earth. The costs of a prototype is always expensive. Once you mass produce things, the cost drop dramatically.

And let's face it. I would want my elite forces I send out to do the nasty things to be the best equipped no matter the costs. buying from the clans is crap, as you can not rely on them to do anything of the sort.

As it was pointed out, those same costs came from the star league core upgrades as well.
Hell endo steel and ferrous fiber armor had to be made in space. That meant getting the crap there up and running. It just does not make sense to use endosteel, and even the armor is questionable. It would be cheaper to just add some more armor in the terms of cost. The space it takes up wouldn't be worth the cost if you really want to put money terms into this. The redesigning to use it is crap. Same with the armor.

And yet no one is producing a non nuclear bomb dropped from orbit with removes all life from an area which does not affect anything after a small amount of time. Or a system missile that can be fired from a planet and hit warships at the jump point. Or come up with a computer that can hit a moving target at range with reliability.

I guess we should start a new thread on this idea.
CrayModerator
08/19/15 06:05 PM
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Quote:
Karagin writes:

And the Inner Sphere SHOULD be able to make Clan tech weapons with no need to buy them from the Sharks, but wait they don't.



They do. MaxTech said so years ago. The Clans just build them cheaper.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Drasnighta
08/19/15 07:35 PM
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Yep. Something about the boys in Laser Weaponry being able to Hand-Craft a perfect replica of a Clan ER-LL, but as it has to be hand-crafted and comes with the attachment of requiring some pretty damn precise and rare components, it would "Cost as much as a 'Mech Regiment"...
CEO Heretic BattleMechs.
Rotwang
08/20/15 04:50 AM
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The BT universe has only one function, support a fairly abstract boardgame where many factors make sense from a gaming point of view, but aren’t realistic by a longshot, like the 7-ton targeting computer that couldn’t hit a 10m tall target a hundred paces away. From a gaming point of view it makes sense that the Clans retain their advantage and that the IS will be stuck with second-rate tech for the rest of all perpetuity, and we can be certain that when the next major new weapon system comes along, all its virtues will be utterly nullified by at least one major drawback etc ...

If you do want a better technical/political/economic background, you'll need to make major changes and divorce it from the idiosyncracies of the boardgame.
Karagin
08/20/15 06:31 AM
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Actually they can make the changes to background and still keep things balanced, it's called better writing and better overview vs using things that the writers/game makers/game testers, don't fully understand and trying to Star Trek it with fancy wording and military catch phrases. Or in the case of what we are talking about tech catch phrases etc...

Write the novels and background to keep folk interested, BUT also keep the tabletop board game with in the realm of believability, which doesn't mean it has to follow the mech battles in the book, we all know the game is an abstract of the fighting, but there is nothing saying it can't be less flawed either.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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