Primative Weapons

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Shadrak
12/17/15 12:06 AM
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CHAIN GUNS (Primative)

Chain guns existed since the 20th century and were a precurser ballistic weapon to the modern autocannon. The light and heavy models of chain gun were introduced in 2110 and 2113 respectively as an advancement over more primitive models used to that point. Like modern autocannon, the first advanced chain guns utilized an external power source to drive the firing mechanism. Like rifled cannon of their time, the light and heavy chain gun were less effective against armor BAR 8 or higher to the point of being ineffective unless a special munition were used.



LIGHT CHAIN GUN (Primative)

The light chain gun ranges in calibur size from 20mm to 40mm with most models utilizing a common 30mm HE round. The weapon has a very high rate of fire and most systems regulate bursts to 16-20 rounds with the number of bursts per ton of ammunition consistently weighing 1 ton per 100 bursts. The exception to this is special penetrator ammunitions which are heavier and require software modification so that rates of fire can be increased. Ammunition can be stored in full or half ton lots. Subtract 3 damage against BAR 8+ armor (1 damage)


HEAVY CHAIN GUN (Primative)

The heavy chain gun ranges in calibur size from 40mm to 60mm with most models utilizing a common 45mm HE round. The weapon has a very high rate of fire and most systems regulate bursts to 10-14 rounds with the number of bursts per ton of ammunition consistently weighing 1 ton per 50 bursts. The exception to this is special penetrator ammunitions which are heavier and require software modification so that rates of fire can be increased. Ammunition can be stored in full or half ton lots. Subtract 3 damage vs BAR 8+ armor (2 damage).


REVOLVER CANNON (Primative)

The revolver cannon came as weapon designers sought larger, more powerful weapons to effectively overcome more effective armor. Like weapons of its day, the revolver cannon was less effective against armor rated BAR 8 and greater unless a special munition were used. The revolver cannon normally utilized a round that ranged from 60mm to 90mm with most models utilizing a 75mm round with a 6-9 round burst. Ammunition for revolver cannon consistently weights 1 ton per 25 bursts. Ammunition must be added in full ton lots. Like rifles and chain guns, the revolver cannon is less effective against BAR 8+ armor and inflicts 3 less damage against armor of these types (3 damage).



ULTRA HEAVY RIFLE

The Ultra Heavy Rifle was developed in the early 2200's in response to advances in armor technology. It was no true innovation, simply a more robust barrel, chamber, and feed mechanism. The Ultra Heavy Rifle would quickly be over shadowed by the development of the AC-5 less than a generation later. As a weapon system, it never gained great popularity especially after the advent of heavier autocannon, but it remains a cheap, easily produced weapon system capable of damaging even the most advanced armor composites.


ANTI-TANK MISSILE (Primative)

The Anti-Tank Missile is the predescessor to the SRM. Most systems are one-shot systems that require manual reloads. The missile warhead contains a tandem charge. Upon a successful attack, the warhead inflicts 10 damage (7 to BAR 8+ armor) and also rolls for a critical hit (no damage from the tandem effects against armor BAR 8+).




AIR to AIR MISSILE (Primative)

Air to Air Missiles would eventually be supplanted by general purpose SRM and LRM missiles until Air to Air Missiles would be re-introduced in the 31st Century. One of the primary reasons this weapon system would be abandoned is that the sensor systems had difficulty in targeting combat systems that did not require zero net-heat (aerospace fighters) and the sensor systems were completely ineffective against systems with any kind of ECM. Additionally, the most advanced air to air missiles of the 24th century were incable of manuevering at thrust levels above 12. Additionally, these missiles generally targeted flight control surfaces on conventional aircraft and were less effective in damaging aerospace fighter armor. Most Air to Air Missiles are one shot weapons.



LIGHT AIR to AIR MISSILE (Primative)

The light air to air missile is less effective against BAR 6+ armor. Attacks against BAR 6+ armor inflict 3 fewer damage and attacks against BAR 8+ armor inflicts 0 damage. Attacks against aerospace fighters and units expending 6+ thrust points in a single turn are +3 to-hit. Attacks against units expending 9+ thrust points in a single turn are completely ineffective.

HEAVY AIR to AIR MISSILE (Primative)

The heavy air to air missile is less effective against BAR 6+ armor. Attacks against BAR 6+ armor inflict 3 fewer damage and attacks against BAR 8+ armor inflicts 6 fewer damage. Attacks against aerospace fighters and units expending 6+ thrust points in a single turn are +3 to-hit. Attacks against units expending 9+ thrust points in a single turn are completely ineffective.

SURFACE to AIR MISSILE (Primative)

Similar to air to air missiles, Surface to Air Missiles would be supplanted by SRMs, LRMs, and Autocannon in after the 24th Century due to their ineffectiveness against advanced combat systems and their suseptibility to anti-missile systems. In the interim, however, they were pretty effective in engaging the combat systems of their day. S2A missiles would later be re-introduced in the late-31st Century.


MANPACK SURFACE to AIR MISSILE (Primative)

The manpack surface to air missile inflicts -1 damage against BAR 6+ armor and is ineffective effective against BAR 8+ armor. Attacks against all aerospace fighters or any units expending 3+ thrust points in a single turn are +3 to-hit. Attacks against units expending 6+ thrust points in a single turn are completely ineffective.

LIGHT AIR to AIR MISSILE (Primative)

The light air to air missile is less effective against BAR 6+ armor. Attacks against BAR 6+ armor inflict 3 fewer damage and attacks against BAR 8+ armor inflicts 6 fewer damage. Attacks against aerospace fighters and units expending 6+ thrust points in a single turn are +3 to-hit. Attacks against units expending 9+ thrust points in a single turn are completely ineffective.

HEAVY AIR to AIR MISSILE (Primative)

The heavy air to air missile is less effective against BAR 6+ armor. Attacks against BAR 6+ armor inflict 3 fewer damage and attacks against BAR 8+ armor inflicts 6 fewer damage. Attacks against aerospace fighters and units expending 6+ thrust points in a single turn are +3 to-hit. Attacks against units expending 9+ thrust points in a single turn are completely ineffective.



Ballistic Missile (Primative)

The ballistic missile is an artillery system that grew out of 20th century ballistic missile systems. These primitive systems would later be replaced by Arrow IV systems and cannon artillery. While it appears ballistic missiles (and guided missiles) should offer great advantages to combatants over Arrow IV and Cannon artillery, there are a variety of reasons that these large, missile artillery systems were supplanted by the artillery systems that remain common today. One of the primary reasons for these systems to be abandoned over time was their high cost relative to their mediocre destructive power. Additionally, these systems are much larger than conventional artillery and are highly succeptible to anti-missile defenses. Still, even during the Succession Wars, combatants found advantages to using these weapons systems (namely, their relative ease of production by lower tech societies).



Tactical Ballistic Missile (Primative)

Tactical ballistic missiles are the most common of the missile artillery. Evantually supplanted by Arrow IV and by Long Ranged Missile Systems, Tactical Ballistic Missiles were prized because of their simplicity, cost-effectiveness, and lethal power. Over the course of time, however, the tactical ballistic missile became ineffective becuase they were succeptible to anti-missile systems.



Short Range Ballistic Missile (Primative)

Short Range Ballistic Missiles are very similar to tactical ballistic missiles. In reality, these missiles are simply a larger, more lethal, extended range tactical ballistic missile. It suffers the same drawbacks as the tactical ballistic missiles.

Medium Range Ballistic Missile (Primative)

The Medium Range Ballistic Missile (Primative) was less succeptible to anti-missile systems compared to the Tactical and Short Ranged versions because the durability of the missile itself protected it to some degree from anti-missile defenses. However, with the advent of advanced targeting systems in the 2400s, these missiles could be targeted like a dive-bombing fighters. Because the missile has no flight adjustment systems, targeting systems are +3 to hit these missiles and, generally, very few of these missiles are successful in engaging modern forces.



Long Range Ballistic Missile (Primative)

Long Range Ballistic Missiles experience the same advantages and disadvantages as Medium Range Ballistic Missiles.

Guided Missile (Primative)

Guided Missile Artillery suffers many of the same weaknesses as Ballistic Missile Artillery, but these artillery systems were one of the primary artillery systems for the various colonies established throughout the Inner Sphere through the 2400's. By the 2400's, though, even guided missiles had been supplanted by the artillery systems we recognize today. Guided missiles suffer greater disadvantages on the modern battle field compared to their ballistic missile counterparts. First, they are much more expensive than ballistic missiles and have generally inflict less damage on the battlefield. Additionally, since they do not arc in a similar manner to ballistic missiles, the largest of these missiles could be attacked like an aerospace fighter. Finally, the designation systems used by these missiles (while highly portable and long ranged compared to modern TAG), were highly succeptible to interference by advanced electronic systems and were completely subverted by advanced electronic countermeasures.





Tactical Guided Missile (Primative)

Tactical guided missiles were very effective in providing additional firepower to light forces, but they were eventually countered with effective anti-missile systems.

Short Range Guided Missile (Primative)

Short range guided missiles were very effective in providing additional firepower to light forces, but they were eventually countered with effective anti-missile systems.

Medium Range Guided Missile (Primative)

Medium range guided missiles tend to travel at slightly slower speeds than tactical and short-ranged guided missiles. Because of this, and because of their trajectory, they can be engaged by modern combat systems using advanced fire control. A medium range guided missile so engaged must sustain 2 points of damage to destroy it.

Long Range Guided Missile (Primative)

Long range guided missiles tend to travel at slightly slower speeds than tactical and short-ranged guided missiles. Because of this, and because of their trajectory, they can be engaged by modern combat systems using advanced fire control. A long ranged missile so engaged must sustain at least 4 points of damage to destroy it.

Tigerfish Unguided Torpedo (Primative)

Unlike modern torpedos that launch multiple, small water-borne missiles from an enclosed system with a standardized ammunition feed, the Tigerfish and Spearfish Torpedos are large, singular, water-borne missiles launched from a tube or similar launcher. These missiles are very large and relatively slow moving. Unguided torpedos have relatively short ranges due to the slow speeds at which the missles move.


Spearfish Guided Torpedo (Primative)

The major advantage of the spearfish over the Tigerfish is that it is effective over greater distance as it can continue to track a target throughout its trajectory. Unfortunately, as more powerful electronic countermeasures were introduced in the 2500's, tracking and tele-operated torpedoes became less effective due to interference. By the 2600's, the Spearfish was relegated almost entirely to planetary garrison forces.



LARGE NAVAL GUNS (Primative)

These large gun systems were developed by the large naval cannon originally produced in the 20th century on Terra. They are very similar to modern artillery cannon, but fire much larger shells. In the 2500's modern composites, alloys, and explosive chemicals resulted in the development of artillery systems that were just as effective at a fraction of the weight. While these artillery pieces could have been redesigned to take advantage of this technological improvement, there wasn't a large market for large gun systesm at the height of the Star League. Today, economics and logistics continue to prevent the development of the modern equivilent of these systems. Defense forces that might be interested in these systems do not have the budget to invest in system upgrades, and these systems and the units that use them are not easily transported by dropship. Still, even today there are blue-water planetary militias (as well as land vehicles) that rely on this ancient system to defend their planets.





"TRIPLE" Three Inch Gun

The "Triple" (Like all of the common Naval Guns) gets its nickname from the size of the round it fires�a 3 inch shell. The triple fires this shell in a rapid, 5 round burst. While the individual explosive power of these shells is not great, the burst is highly accurate and capable of saturating a 30 meter diameter area with high-energy fragments.

"Fiver" Five Inch Gun (Primative)

The "Fiver" is essentially a larger "Triple" and fires a round that is 150% heavier than the triple's round and also contains a higher amount of propellant.

"Eighter" Eight Inch Gun (Primative)

The "Eighter" reduced the number of rounds fired to 3 per burst because the gun hardware would have to be reinforced to over 100 tons for a full 5-round burst. Additionally, a 5 round burst would almost consume a full ton of ammuntion. Modern explosives and alloys would allow for an "Eighter" that could fire faster and be more effective, but organizations interested in a better "Eighter" are better served with simply purchasing a Long Tom Artillery Peice. The advantage that an "Eighter" holds over a Long Tom today, though, is that the "Eighter" is readily produced on virtually any industrialized planet, including many bandit-controlled planets.



"381" 15 Inch Gun (Primative)

The 381 was extremely rare in the Age of War as it required special engineering capabilities nearly as advanced as the capabilities of more modern systems, but several powers found them to be helpful in breaking the naval assets of their rivals. It could only fire once every 2 battletech turns.



"5-10" 20 Inch Gun (Primative)

The 5-10 was only used on one Battleship Class in the 2500s and it was very successful in destroying rival warships and the group that produced them soon dominated their planet. These weapons were even effective in defending against aerospace fighters with their hivebomb round. Unfortunately for them, dominance in an environment where opponents use archaic military equipment does not ensure dominance in an environment where opponents are capable of orbitally bombarding surface vessels. In the late-3000's a version of this weapon was successfully fielded that utilized a special round with a scramjet motor that enabled surface vessels to respond to the orbital threat. All orbiting warships were an additional -1 to-hit, and the weapon was unable to target any space vehicle smaller than 500 tons or accelerating 3.5 g/turn. This system required a crew of 80 when not using targeting systems, 60 when using basic targeting systems, and 40 when using advanced targeting systems. The weapon could only fire once every 3 battletech turns.



Light Hardpoint

The light hardpoint offers some advantages and some serious disadvantages over the standard external hardpoint. The two primary advantages of the light hard point are that a single light hardpoint can be added to a fixrd wing or VTOL support vehicle for every 2500 kg of vehicle weight. Additionally, in medium and large support vehicles, these hard points are integrated at no extra weight cost. For small support vehicles, these hard points weight 50 kg each. Weapons and equipment requiring 2 light hardpoints require a vehicle that mounts at least 2 light hardpoints in the same location.
Shadrak
12/17/15 01:12 PM
70.194.242.16

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Can't get the Stats to post...


Well, here are some advanced ones...riffing g on thunderbolt launchers...

Sprite launcher-SRM version
Tsunami-LRT version
Seiche-SRT version

-C Types- Clan versions of the Thunderbolt, Sprite, Tsunami, and Seiche
ghostrider
12/17/15 03:21 PM
98.150.102.177

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I could understand the clans not using those weapons, as they probably destroyed most of it when they left the innersphere. They would probably have the newer weapons only.

It does give some ideas on home made weapons, as most rebellious worlds would not be allowed more advanced weapons in non military hands. And some of these look like a normal gunsmith could make them.

Wonder if you problem with the stats is the same one the shadow hawk design is having.
Shadrak
12/17/15 03:43 PM
70.194.242.16

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Yeah...a lot of the stats are in the TRO Backwaters file I posted.

Certainly clans wouldn't use the primative systems because their militaries/warrior caste would control all weapon systems. In fact, Successor State organizations wouldn't use these either...

Local militias- say you have a planet with 500 million population...in canon, this might have a regimental combat team at best to defend it...1500 Soldiers to defend a population 50% larger than the US...assume it is 4500 soldiers when you throw in support...that is a .0009% (9 per 1,000,000) Soldier to non-combatant ratio. Very low. I never understood why a planetary militia wouldn't just field 10,000 jeeps with heavy support MGs against invaders.

Insurgent forces

Primative Forces: age of war, periphery/ bandit, small independent planets


Edited by Shadrak (12/17/15 03:54 PM)
Shadrak
12/17/15 03:53 PM
70.194.242.16

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As I have play tested these (once) by tonnage, traditional battletech mechs/combat vehicles destroy about 5-8 times their weight vs tech rating d and 15-20 vs tech rating c...


By monetary value it is about 5-6 times destruction of tech c/d vs mech/combat...

Given GDP and population, the only thing restricting planetary militias from fielding mechs/combat vehicles is technology, not cost...so if you don't have the technology, but you have numbers and money and your tech rating is c or b, why wouldn't you just put a large number of low quality combat systems in the field.
ghostrider
12/17/15 08:24 PM
98.150.102.177

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You would put out what you had to in order to make it look like you are not an easy target.
Not sure what the population base is for begin assigned a regimental combat team, but there is just not enough of them to do that with, and a few low population worlds had several of them. New Avalon would be a good example. I believe it had 5 on world at almost all times.

And the question of defenses is a good one. With the ability to control remote units, why didn't they have areas with massed mgs and such to protect things like passes thru mountains that were controlled by one person? It would be a smart idea. Even if you spend 1 mil on them, it is cheaper then the lightest mech. And in the close quarters, probably more effective.

With the last comment about tech being what would prevent militias from fielding units, I think the is circumstantial. You hire techs to work on your units and field them even if your main tech level is barely above stone axes. Some of the front line border worlds were supposed to be low tech, but the houses sent in support to defend them.
The only thing tech seems to do, is limit what you can build, not possess. Otherwise, the back water worlds would never be able to own shuttles and drop ships.
The lack of production was implied as why militias were lacking units.
And sadly, a few novels suggested that some planets could not even afford vehicles like a flight of helicopters. The Black Thorns defending the one world said the new chopers they got was a few years of defense budget.
Shadrak
12/18/15 07:21 AM
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I should have been more clear. It is not the tech level that prevents them from using units.

Tech level limits the total number of advanced units on the battletech universe...primitive systems, though, should be virtually unlimited.

Of you can't get access to a battlemech (and it shouldnt be for budgetary reasons if you have a population for 5 million....just have everyone donate 1 c bill out of their 5000 cbill salaries and you can buy a 5 million cbill mech), you would field what you could produce locally. An M1 Abrams-type tech c tracked support vehicle would cost you about 500000 cbill if I remember my production properly...amd that is with BAR 10, tech level c armor, a heavy rifle, and 2 machineguns...it would move 3/5, have about 16-20 armor points each facing...and anyone with 1980s tech in Battletech could make it....

So, if you have a population of 5 million (very small planet), a gdp of 25 billion (very low gdp), and you have a government budget of 10% gdp (a very low tax rate), and you spend 10% of government expenditures on defense (a low proportion of spending), and capital spending is 10% of that budget (again, very low) you are looking at an annual defense capital budget of 25 million cbills...for capital improvements...why not buy 2 or Battlemechs a year? It can only be because the supply is not there...it can't be lack of demand. If demaND is there and supply can't fill it, an alternative should be available...that might be combat vehicles, but even these are under utilized...amd there definately should be no reason why it shouldn't be infantry and technicals.

It's like battletech world's are worse off than Somalia.
ghostrider
12/18/15 01:18 PM
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I agree that militia should rely on locally built weapons for defense.
I do question the idea that low tech for the world does not mean you can't have high tech things on it. Just have to rely on off world shipments for parts.
And I do agree. It does sound like alot of worlds in the game are set so they are worse then some of the third world countries around now.

The issue with combat vehicles, is they tend to be in the same level of tech as mechs. Which cause the same sort of issue. But the game isn't pushing vehicles, like it should for garrisons because of what was pointed out. This is a mech game. People want to fight in and against mechs. They are not wanting to fight a horde of tanks, or even fight in a tank.

I believe this is the main reason why they want tanks to die just because an enemy mech is around. Imagine how much fun and prestige you would gain from running a tank unit that is known to destroy mech units? Then being the hero in a mech loses it's glamour.

And it seems like you are thinking like the developers want you to think. Except for independent or pirate planets, most are not alone. They are normally part of a larger organization that sends money and units to the world as well. You have a world in even the confederation that is constantly raided, but you do not want to leave front line units there, having a well equipped militia is the next best step. You bring in the front line troops to wipe out the invaders, after their 'sneak attack.'

Hell the militia might even be able to handle the invaders. What's an extra 20 million to help defend a world and not have to send in the front line units. I don't care about he game tag, replacing good experienced pilots is not easy or cheap. Also a simple raid drawing off the good troops has been used by the enemy to soften up their main assault by using those very diversionary tactics.

And the locals, even in something like the Commonwealth would turn to what ever they have available to atleast try to fight back. It is their families and property that is going to suffer if the invaders win.
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