Zeus X4.....why?

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RockJock
12/21/15 10:27 AM
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I understand that the reasoning that the Zeus X4 is a Dark Ages mech, with a grab bag of technology, but the end result is an extremely expensive machine that I can't imagine seeing the light of day. Even a more conventional design with lab built Clantech weapon prototypes would be a better use of the giant pile of cash. On top of that I could build something with a similar combat profile using fairly standard tech for a fraction of the cost.

My question is do you use book designs like this at all? Do you redesign them? Throw them out? What?
happyguy49
12/21/15 02:29 PM
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It's ungodly expensive for sure, the 400 rated XXL alone is more than 70 million bucks.. sheesh. It has a command console though, so this would probably be a mech for a general, or a rich lord or prince or something. The engine is the equivalent of a gold toilet or some similar ostentatious nonsense.

Maybe if you are a gamemaster, you could equip an assassination or extraction target with it; have your players roleplaying a merc unit doing the attack and extraction. (with a fat salvage cash bonus if they can drag that engine out intact!)
RockJock
12/21/15 02:55 PM
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Good luck getting the engine out in once piece.

I can build a similar mech using a Light, or at least standard XL engine for much, much less, even with the command console.

A quick version: 4/6 movement with a LFE, TSM that boosts to 8 movement, Endo, 14.5 tons standard armor, 1 CASE II, ERPPC, ERML, LGR with 16 shots, LRM 15+ FCS with 16 shots, 11 DHS, with an Guardian.

Weapons are a pretty even trade, same with movement. Armor is lighter without the Reactive, but countered with a more durable engine and ECM. Switch to an XL,and you can max the armor, plus add some pop guns.

My gripe is if I was going to build a fast Lyran command mech I can use easier to find, cheaper to buy, as well as maintain components that happen to also be more durable. Why in the world would even the stupid Lyrans buy this instead of a lance of assaults? As a one off for a fat commander sure, but not as a production design.


Edited by RockJock (12/21/15 03:09 PM)
Rotwang
12/22/15 01:14 AM
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Battletech is pockmarked with TR Mechs that are by law required to incorporate the newest tech to the point of becoming utterly ludicrous ...

From a universe POV it's a vanity project that wasn't nipped in the bud soon enough.
ghostrider
12/22/15 04:08 AM
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70 mil for one engine? Buy a damn assault lance for that and still have money left over for a vehicle company.

Hell, seen a few prices for omnimechs in books suggesting some were 23 mil and crap. That alone would cover the costs.

So is the drop ship included in the price?

This also shows the price of units is not a concern with canon material.
I can see the developers trying to equip ever Lyran company with atleast one of these mechs.
Akirapryde2006
12/22/15 09:47 AM
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Quick question, when has price ever been a factor for large states?

Take the US and its Top Air Superiority Fighters

You have the McDonnell Douglas F-15 which comes in right around $29.9 million dollars per fighter

Next you have the Lockheed Martin F-22 which the GAO claims the costs are $412 million per aircraft

If you can write your own checks and print your own cash, why not buy the very best for your military.

Akirapryde

Cited Sources:
F-15
F-22
Rotwang
12/22/15 10:04 AM
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Yeah, but you are talking about real world economics, which don’t exist in BT. Your Warhammer may have been built in the days of the Star League, in 3029 or 3140, it will cost the same since the price of mechs is not affected by anything but the permanently fixed cost of the parts. Besides the F-22 incorporates a whole lot of new tech, while the price of the F-15 comes at the end of a decades long production run. Modern armies are feeling the crunch of the rising cost of equipment, the days where you could equip your men with nothing more than a bolt-action rifle and a woollen uniform and send them to the front by the million is probably over.

There was a joke that at some point NATO would develop a fighter that could take down the entire Soviet Air Force by itself, which was a good things they would not be able to afford more than a single one anyway.
Akirapryde2006
12/22/15 10:38 AM
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Quote:
Rotwang writes:

Yeah, but you are talking about real world economics, which don't exist in BT. Your Warhammer may have been built in the days of the Star League, in 3029 or 3140, it will cost the same since the price of mechs is not affected by anything but the permanently fixed cost of the parts.



So if economics doesn't exist in the BT Universe why even bother with the costs of units? We could just use the unit costs of Axis and Allies, where the cost is in terms of million hours worth of labor.

This is one of the inherent flaws of the universe created by the players. They tried to give the universe a real world economics. Each house had their own economy, currency and even exchange rates. If you dive in to the books and novels, there is a vibrant economy within the Inner Sphere. When the Clans invaded, the economy of the Inner Sphere baffled the Clan leadership. Which is one of the reasons why they enlisted the help of Comstar to manage their occupied worlds. Economics played a key role in the creation of the Federated Commonwealth, and even in the role of Mercenaries throughout the Inner Sphere.

Take the Capital Missiles, the technology to build them were never lost. In the source material, the cost for build them. When Warships were no longer available, Capital Missile production ceased. It was not that they couldn't build the missiles, the choice was made. It leads one to suspect that the choice was due to economic reasons.

However its the players that want to ignore this fact. They ignore it so that they can run off with insane creations and make statements like oh real world economics don't exist. But the truth of the matter is, they do exist. Its just ignored by the players, not the system or the universe.

Akirapryde

Cited Source: Capital Missiles
RockJock
12/23/15 11:35 AM
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If you rule out cost, then why have vehicles? In the Succession Wars the inability to make certain parts, or to understand the technology led to designs like the Charger staying in production because all the pieces were available.

Take the Vulpes. It is another insanely expensive design, and in my mind at least is a better analog to the F-22. You have a cutting edge design that is up there with the best of the best for it's class and role. It is an absolute terror against mechs with a similar speed profile and role. If you are fielding one elite pilot in a skirmisher it is a great design. I would rather take more of cheaper design in it's place for most roles, but for a raid, or similar where transportation is the limiting factor the Vulpes fits. The X4 doesn't fit that for me, it is just a boondoggle.
Drasnighta
12/23/15 12:54 PM
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I think the problem is we view the entire universe as a fixed economy, when really, it is a fluid one.


If you have the exclusive manufacturing rights or capabilities to something, then its inherent cost will go down, compared to what/where you buy/sell at markup.

But its an abstract in the end, its not supposed to be viewed as a realistic economic sense framework, because you need stupid amounts of computer simulation for that...

So you know what, I just roll with it. Some things are allowed to be Cool for cool's sake.

What else would you do if you had a prototype XXL engine rolling around?
CEO Heretic BattleMechs.
ghostrider
12/23/15 01:10 PM
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I do agree that the numbers are not fully set, as raids will slow down production and there will be times that you can pump out more. The over all numbers is where things tend to get messy.

The question isn't really about an xxl but the size of the xxl. A 400 is just a horrible engine to do. Something like a 160 or even a 300 would have been better, as they fit in more units. The 300 fits into more then a few units, so it would make sense to build a factory for that, instead of the limited 400.

And from what I have seen, you run out of criticals in an assault mech once you free up some tonnage. Heatsinks eat up alot, and don't even think of using smaller weapons as you have extra weight left over.

And I do agree that costs should drop after a while, as the prototype is going to be outrageously expensive, yet they still haven't for some things.

Which also leads me to say the production of units was supposed to be limited because of a lack of certain parts, like fusion engines. That was supposed to be why tanks didn't use them, but that changed, and screwed up the basis for why mechs were supposed to be rare, yet the canon ideas didn't stick with it.
Akirapryde2006
12/23/15 02:26 PM
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Quote:
RockJock writes:

If you rule out cost, then why have vehicles? In the Succession Wars the inability to make certain parts, or to understand the technology led to designs like the Charger staying in production because all the pieces were available.



RockJock, I know what you mean. But cost is really not a factor when you talk about Successor States who has billions upon billions of C-Bills to build and maintain their militaries. If you think of the US, we only spend an estimated 54% (or $598 billion) of its Discretionary Spending ‎(according to 2015 figures) on its military. Now think of the level of resources that the Successor States have at their disposal.

Cost for the major states of the Inner Sphere, simply isn’t a factor. Even in terms of resources, the Houses of the Inner Sphere simply don’t need to worry about it. We are talking states with hundreds or worlds under their control. It is just unlikely that more than half of these worlds would be resource poor. It is more than likely that these systems (not just single worlds but entire solar systems) would be rich in some kind of resource.

The level of technology is a factor that has to be considered for the Houses. While I disagree that war and Comstar were able to create the “Dark Ages” of the Inner Sphere, it is canon and something that has to be considered. Only a number of locations produce high tech units like Battlemechs. This is why sending wave after wave of Battlemechs to capture a single world is not practical. You have to support that Battlemech with lesser units like vehicles and infantry.

Cited Source: US Federal Budget for 2015

Now once you move beyond the Great Houses of the Inner Sphere and the Clans, cost for units start to become a factor. It is here you have to really start to look at the monetary value of a unit vs its uses on the battlefield.

Now where is this truer than when talking about Mercenary Units and Bandit Kingdoms.

Quote:
Drasnighta writes:

I think the problem is we view the entire universe as a fixed economy, when really, it is a fluid one.

If you have the exclusive manufacturing rights or capabilities to something, then its inherent cost will go down, compared to what/where you buy/sell at markup.

But it’s an abstract in the end, it’s not supposed to be viewed as a realistic economic sense framework, because you need stupid amounts of computer simulation for that...



Drasnighta, I couldn’t have said it better. The economy of the Inner Sphere is very fluid. Take the Great Houses of the Inner Sphere, economy for them is based on trade between worlds. The economy of the Clans is built off of combat and conflict with other Clans (and later the Inner Sphere). Move beyond the Inner Sphere and the Clans, you have the Periphery where the majority of the economy is built off of what a single world can do for themselves or off raiding.

Nowhere is the economy of the Battletech Universe fixed.
RockJock
12/23/15 03:26 PM
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Yet Clan weapons are too expensive and/or difficult to build? If price is not an issue then Clantech would be the standard, or at least 3050 era Clantech.
Akirapryde2006
12/23/15 08:41 PM
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Quote:
RockJock writes:

Yet Clan weapons are too expensive and/or difficult to build? If price is not an issue then Clantech would be the standard, or at least 3050 era Clantech.



Look, I get what you are saying.

It is as if the authors of the game up through the current authors, think that Humans are pretty dumb.

Take the B-29 of WWII, while the USSR had lagged behind the US (as other nations did) in terms of heavy bomber design. Getting their hands on a handful (five) of B-29 rocketed the design programs of the USSR due to re-engineering of seized B-29. This gave birth to the Soviet bomber, Tu-4. Which was nothing less than a carbon copy of the B-29. The Soviets did this in right around two years.

Anyone is hard pressed to make me believe that the Successor States could not reverse engineer Clan tech in a similar time frame. By the 3060's, Clan tech should have been the standard across the major powers of the Inner Sphere (or at least the Fed-Com, Comstar and the Draconis Combine)

Again this conversation doesn't include minor powers (regional and/or periphery powers), nor does it include Mercenary commands.

Cited Source: B-29
Cited Source: Tu-4
RockJock
12/24/15 03:22 AM
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A very quick version. Loose the XXL for a Light plus TSM. X-Pulse for a smattering of lasers, and slightly increased Reactive Armor. Basically everything the X4 is, for under 20 mil. The X-Pulse is a minor sacrifice for the increased durability, and increased raw firepower from the smaller lasers. On top of all that, you can almost buy a Vulpes to go with my version with the leftover cash.

BattleMech Technical Readout

Type/Model: Zeus ZEU-XX
Tech: Inner Sphere / 3025
Config: Biped BattleMech
Rules: Level 3, Standard design

Mass: 80 tons
Chassis: Chariot Type III Composite
Power Plant: 320 Pitban Light Fusion
Walking Speed: 43.2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64.8 [86.4] km/h
Jump Jets: None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor Type: Valiant Lamellor Reactive
Armament:
1 LRM 20
1 Light Gauss Rifle
1 ER Small Laser
1 ER Large Laser
2 ER Medium Lasers
Manufacturer: Defiance Industries of Hesperus II
Location: Hesperus II
Communications System: TharHes Calliope ZE-2
Targeting & Tracking System: TharHes Ares-7

------------------------------------------------------------------------------


--------------------------------------------------------
Type/Model: Zeus ZEU-XX
Mass: 80 tons

Equipment: Crits Mass
Int. Struct.: 122 pts Composite 0 4.00
Engine: 320 Light Fusion 10 17.00
Walking MP: 4 [5]
Running MP: 6 [8]
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks: 10 Double [20] 0 .00
Gyro: 4 4.00
Command Console, Life Supt., Sensors: 6 6.00
Triple Strength Myomer: 6 .00
Actuators: L: Sh+UA+LA R: Sh+UA+LA 14 .00
Armor Factor: 247 pts Reactive 14 15.50
(Armor Crit Loc: 2 LA, 5 LT, 4 RT, 1 CT, 1 LL, 1 RL)

Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head: 3 9
Center Torso: 25 38
Center Torso (Rear): 12
L/R Side Torso: 17 26/26
L/R Side Torso (Rear): 8/8
L/R Arm: 13 26/26
L/R Leg: 17 34/34

Weapons and Equipment Loc Heat Ammo Crits Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
1 LRM 20 RA 6 12 7 12.00
(Ammo Locations: 2 RA)
1 Light Gauss Rifle LA 1 16 6 13.00
(Ammo Locations: 1 LA)
1 ER Small Laser RT 2 1 .50
1 ER Large Laser LT 12 2 5.00
1 ER Medium Laser LT 5 1 1.00
1 ER Medium Laser CT 5 1 1.00
CASE II Equipment: 1 1.00
(CASE II Loc: 1 RA)
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS: 31 73 80.00
Crits & Tons Left: 5 .00

Calculated Factors:
Total Cost: 18,349,650 C-Bills
Battle Value 2: 2,454 (old BV = 1,464)
Cost per BV2: 7,477.44
Weapon Value: 2,213 / 2,213 (Ratio = .90 / .90)
Damage Factors: SRDmg = 24; MRDmg = 21; LRDmg = 12
BattleForce2: MP: 4, Armor/Structure: 6/5
Damage PB/M/L: 3/3/2, Overheat: 2
Class: MA; Point Value: 25
Rotwang
12/24/15 05:22 AM
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Quote:
Akirapryde2006 writes:

Anyone is hard pressed to make me believe that the Successor States could not reverse engineer Clan tech in a similar time frame. By the 3060's, Clan tech should have been the standard across the major powers of the Inner Sphere (or at least the Fed-Com, Comstar and the Draconis Combine)





Clan tech can't be replicated because it's made from rare materials which are not available in the Inner Sphere such as unobtanium, Unicorn Tears and the Thoughts of General Kerensky ...
Rotwang
12/24/15 06:03 AM
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Let's not forget the ludicrous physics and the criminal incompetence of most tech scientists and engineers.

Take the "light" autocannons. Instead of just updating them and tossing the old AC's guns onto the scrapyard, there is this universal rule that even the oldest, inefficient weapons remain "viable" in most circumstances. That's why the Light AC drops the range for no reason even if they have Clan tech to show them a possible solution.

just imagine an AR-15 designed in such a way that under certain circumstances somebody would say : "It's a nice gun, but in this case I'd rather use the Brown Bess musket."

And then there is the Light Gauss Rifle which is another weapon even a rabid committee couldn't perfect. The weight and anaemic damage simply don't add up. The Gauss Rifle is a useful weapon that packs a wallop at range, the LGR is simply a bloated AC/5.

And the less said about the OS launchers, the better ... I don't wanna know what combination of meds, booze, drugs and levels of incest makes the committee stand up, applaud itself and have each other high-fiving and patting each other on the back for a few hours and declare this "Most Perfectests Weaponz Designed EVAR !!!"

If BT ever escaped into the real world, your next smartphone would be twice as fast, but also twice as heavy, with a smaller screen and would catch fire 1/3rd of the time.
Akirapryde2006
12/24/15 09:35 AM
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Quote:
Rotwang writes:

Quote:
Akirapryde2006 writes:

Anyone is hard pressed to make me believe that the Successor States could not reverse engineer Clan tech in a similar time frame. By the 3060's, Clan tech should have been the standard across the major powers of the Inner Sphere (or at least the Fed-Com, Comstar and the Draconis Combine)





Clan tech can't be replicated because it's made from rare materials which are not available in the Inner Sphere such as unobtanium, Unicorn Tears and the Thoughts of General Kerensky ...




LOL Okay Okay, you got me, I forgot about the Unicorn Tears. Everyone knows that those dang unicorns can only be found on the other side of the Caliban Nebula.

You earned some respect from me Rotwang, lol

Akirapryde
Akirapryde2006
12/24/15 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Rotwang writes:

Let's not forget the ludicrous physics and the criminal incompetence of most tech scientists and engineers.

Take the "light" autocannons. Instead of just updating them and tossing the old AC's guns onto the scrapyard, there is this universal rule that even the oldest, inefficient weapons remain "viable" in most circumstances. That's why the Light AC drops the range for no reason even if they have Clan tech to show them a possible solution.

just imagine an AR-15 designed in such a way that under certain circumstances somebody would say : "It's a nice gun, but in this case I'd rather use the Brown Bess musket."

And then there is the Light Gauss Rifle which is another weapon even a rabid committee couldn't perfect. The weight and anaemic damage simply don't add up. The Gauss Rifle is a useful weapon that packs a wallop at range, the LGR is simply a bloated AC/5.

And the less said about the OS launchers, the better ... I don't wanna know what combination of meds, booze, drugs and levels of incest makes the committee stand up, applaud itself and have each other high-fiving and patting each other on the back for a few hours and declare this "Most Perfectests Weaponz Designed EVAR !!!"

If BT ever escaped into the real world, your next smartphone would be twice as fast, but also twice as heavy, with a smaller screen and would catch fire 1/3rd of the time.



Listen one of the issues with this game and its designers is that the weapon development seems to stagnate. I know people will hate on me for saying this but, look at the Clans compared to the Inner Sphere and the Large Laser.

The Clans correctly develop their weapon systems. They have either the ER Large Laser or the Large Pulse Laser. There is no Clan Large Laser available because the Clans didn't produce the Large Laser because it is inferior to the two newer designs. Now I don't know about the Tech Manual, but the Large Laser was still in production despite being outdated and no longer viable on the battlefield throughout the 3050's. I am even willing to bet that these weapons remained in service long in to the 3060's. Some ten to twenty years after newer, better designs had been introduced. This makes zero military since.

It is as if the designers were worried about weapon development. There are some weapons throughout history that seem to defy logic. Take the Browning M2 Machine Gun. While it was originally developed as a .30 Caliber water cooled weapon, the M2 only saw a few modification (the largest being the up in caliber to .50 and the removal of the water jacket). The M2 is a remarkable weapon that has seen service as a Squad Support Weapon, Vehicle Mount, From WWII Fighters to modern Helicopters. The M2 has seen service in more battlefields than any other weapon (maybe even more than the AK-47) throughout modern history.

In the end, the M2 has been in service since 1933. A remarkable service record for a remarkable weapon. The M2 is the exception to the weapon development rule but not the standard. However if you look at the entire Inner Sphere, the current weapons remained in production much longer than military logic would have allowed them to.

Cited Source: M2 Browning Machine Gun
RockJock
12/24/15 12:53 PM
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The original Clantech equipment is the only real "improvement" in tech. The vast majority of IS advancements are compromises. Take the Large Laser. The IS ER has better range, but greatly increased heat as the trade off. The Clan version has increased damage, range, and lighter weight, for the same heat in crease.

The newer tech "improvements" like the IS specialty armors tend to be more of the same. Reactive armor might be an improvement in certain situations but trades off as a weakness in others.

know we have gotten off topic, but the fact that 3050 Clantech beats 3145 IS tech is a shame.
ghostrider
12/24/15 01:11 PM
98.150.102.177

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not to be picky, but lrm 20 is only 10 tons, not 12. If that is not a typo, then you might have your weight for the xpulse laser.

I am wondering if the Browning mg isn't the standard mg of the 3025 era.

Now working with a smart phone, I would think it would be able to hit a moving target much better then the comps used in battletech. Hell, I think my old commadore 64 would be able to do that better.

But the issue of range stagnation is one of the biggest problems of the game. The weapons used in warships in space reach out miles to hit relatively small targets for the range, ie drop ships, yet there is still no weapon that can hit reliably at a kilometer on the ground.
Yes, lasers don't dissipate in space like they do in water vapor, but then is that going to be the next defense for drop ships? A water container that explodes and absorbs fire directed at it?
'hey look ma. They can't touch us now.'

I would think it would be worth some extra weight to have weapons that can reach out further, for things like towers and other units that aren't as concerned about weight. But then that would put mechs at a disadvantage allowing defenders to potshot invaders over the open plains and not worrying about return fire.

And you forgot one major item that is required to make clan weapons. Logic.
RockJock
12/24/15 03:40 PM
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The 12 tons for the LRM includes two tons of ammo. Same reason the LGR shows as 13 tons.
Rotwang
12/25/15 06:49 AM
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It wasn't always that way. The TR2750 and TR3050 contained new tech that didn't automatically include a major failure hog-tied to any technological advance. The culprit is the Renegade Legion Centurion Technical Update, After that no new piece of equipment in BT was allowed to have nothing but positive qualities ...
Akirapryde2006
12/25/15 10:42 AM
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Quote:
Rotwang writes:

It wasn't always that way. The TR2750 and TR3050 contained new tech that didn't automatically include a major failure hog-tied to any technological advance. The culprit is the Renegade Legion Centurion Technical Update, After that no new piece of equipment in BT was allowed to have nothing but positive qualities ...



Actually you are mistaken,

The TR 2750 was littered with trade offs. Take the ER Large Laser and ER PPC. Longer range is only minor increase compared to the increase in heat. You get barely a 27% increase in range compared to the 50% increase in heat.

The ER PPC is much the same. A 27% increase in range compared to the 50% increase in heat.

The Clan technological advances are more in line with logical thinking.

This trend is continued throughout the TR's and new technologies.

Akirapryde
Rotwang
12/25/15 11:34 AM
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They were tradoffs, but they were offset by the new tech such as XL engines and DHS. It's stuff like Reflective Armour, Light Autocannons, where there is some factor that is more than just a tradeoff, it's an arbitrary limitation.

The LAC 5 is a perfect example, instead of accepting that the old AC/5 is obsolete they simply nerf the LAC reducing the range to the point where you're probably better off with an Ultra or LBX or even invest in a light PPC which has the same range and damage profile, with a vastly reduced weight, no ammo dependency for a higher, but not excessive increased heat.

Same with reflective, other than the TR's I haven't seen anyone who is willing to increase the vulnerability vs about half the weapons in the game. If they had put the penalty at maybe 75% rather than 50% you might be tempted with the extra crits being the tradeoff.

And then the Gauss family. The original weapon was superb, but both the light and heavy versions are so nerfed and the Improved Heavy Gauss is "made of unicorn tears" experimental which means that between now and the end of the universe it remains in limbo.

And the list goes on ...

Mekton got it right, you could have the munchkinest weapon in the universe, but you ended up paying so many extra points for it, it would remain balanced.
RockJock
12/25/15 10:37 PM
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I always look at the 3050s Clantech as a good comparison. You have a Clan ERLL which is a no trade off jump from an IS ERLL, and a net-net gain over the old IS LL, Most, if not all of us can agree on the above.

The apple-apple comparison for the old LL to Clantech is not the Clan ERLL, but the Clan ERML in my book. The Clan ERML has matching range, less crits, and slight drop in punch with only 20% of the weight attached to the IS LL. If you go with 2 Clan ERMLs(14 damage, 10 heat) to an IS LL (8 damage, 8 heat), and assume you are using SHS, which you wouldn't be it you ed up with more punch, and slight more crits, and still less weight.

The same goes for most of the original Clantech weapons.
Karagin
12/26/15 01:00 AM
72.176.187.91

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It is a test bed unit, NOT a front line unit, but given the silliness of the Jihad and the post Dark Age story it became a front line units, along with several dozen other mechs that would have been, under normal circumstances, left at the prototype stage and never made it beyond that, ended up in production.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
happyguy49
12/26/15 09:59 AM
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I want to throw in the point that the biggest reason IS tech still isn't equal to Clan tech is to keep the game interesting. That said, the IS has waaaaay more new toys to play with. Initially it was only the tech in the TR 2750 readout remember? ER LL and PPC, pulses, only one class of LBx, one class of ultra AC, one streak, one Gauss rifle. The only "new" tech the IS had circa 3050 was the C3.. which was actually pretty awesome, used right. The only new Clan tech I really like are the iATMs.

I agree all of the newer IS stuff is all upside + downside, again, to keep it interesting.


As for this particular unit; it's Lyran, they are rich relatively, they promote socially rather than on merit, and this unit has a command console. SO... this unit is for a social general, from a wealthy noble family. Ostentatiousness is the entire point. I completely realize an equivalent or even superior unit (battlefield-wise) could be made for a fraction of the cost, but in this specific case of the Zeus X4, WASTE IS THE ENTIRE POINT. That is the reason for the most expensive engine in the entire game. Also if it's a national-pride command unit, that explains the lack of Clan tech, even if the 3145 Lyrans can buy it from the Foxes, Wolves, etc.
ghostrider
12/26/15 11:24 AM
98.150.102.177

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Ok. I can agree with the basis of what you are saying hg49. It would be a matter of pride to have a unit like this.
I am not arguing this point, though it would have made more sense with using a different engine. And the developmental costs would probably allow them to by a new warship.
I just wish the developers of the game didn't make it sound like costs were keeping the IS from getting caught up.

Though I do wonder if the lack of clan tech isn't more in line with 'keeping it interesting'.
If they Lyrans did have clan tech in everything, there would be less likely hood of them losing or even more likely hood of them removing the clans from their borders.
I think artificial balancing is the thing with the lack of clan tech.
Imagine the lyran army with all clan tech. Tactics can only do so much when the enemy can shoot you with more power at ranges beyond your weapons.

And this should be moved to another thread, as it is moving far beyond the x4.
Reiter
12/27/15 02:33 PM
45.48.53.140

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The battletech universe gets boring post Clan Truce around 3065 I think, after that the weapons and other odd tech get ludicrous beyond a few I could see as an "upgrade" to second or third line units; example would be a light autocannon to add more ammo or another weapons system without going all weeboo and upgrading everything while squeezing out the min/max to 11 on the OP dial.

As for the economy of the IS and the price of things, plus some of those way out there technology....Twilight Zone and SpongeBob say it best

"You're traveling through another dimension, a dimension not only of sight and sound but of mind. A journey into a wondrous land whose boundaries are that of....



...something, something, control the vertical, the horizontal, and channel...*CLICK* the sound of your rational mind turning off and just accepting what ever is told you, for the sake of simplicity.
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