TigerShark
03/12/14 11:56 PM
68.190.197.104
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There's still not much of a reason to exclude them from being mounted on BattleMechs. Self-propelled artillery has been around since WWII. The Germans' "Wespe" was only 11 tons and was armed with a 10.5cm gun. I think a 50 ton 'Mech is more than capable of hauling the same armament.
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Retry
03/12/14 11:58 PM
76.7.238.202
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They aren't excluded from Battlemechs
That still doesn't make it a good idea to mount one on it in a good majority of cases.
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TigerShark
03/13/14 12:11 AM
68.190.197.104
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I don't understand why it's a bad idea. Any time I bring arty to a game, I find I have a significant advantage.
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Retry
03/13/14 12:15 AM
72.214.204.166
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Because the heaviest of artillery have so many crit spaces it is impractical to attach it to a mech at all, and smaller arty can be VTOL mounted, be much cheaper and more mobile.
And chances are less BV too If you balance with that.
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TigerShark
03/13/14 12:19 AM
68.190.197.104
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Eh? Could you explain the "BV" part? Arty is MORE than worth its Battle Value when being lugged onto a board.
And Sniper / Arrow IV work very well on Mechs. The Helepolis, Bowman, Naga, etc. are devastating when deployed correctly. Off-board artillery is all but useless and is just as likely to hit your own units as theirs, once you get into a close fight.
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Retry
03/13/14 12:30 AM
72.214.204.166
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Vehicles tend to have lower BVs when they have similar equipment. I think this partially has to do with mech internal structure.
You know what an arrow would work better on? A VTOL(even if it must be made as a superheavy)
You know what a sniper would work better on? Any similarly designed vehicle ever made.
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TigerShark
03/13/14 12:32 AM
68.190.197.104
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Those vehicle are also more easily disabled. I don't disagree that it's useful to have a Ballista, Schiltron, etc. on the field. But a 'Mech can position itself in different terrain, change levels more quickly, maintain a field of fire while hidden by partial cover, etc.
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Retry
03/13/14 12:35 AM
72.214.204.166
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Which I have said that they aren't useless, but limited to less niches.
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TigerShark
03/13/14 12:36 AM
68.190.197.104
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Hey, we agree on something! :-D
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Retry
03/13/14 12:42 AM
72.214.204.166
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All right then!
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Frabby
03/13/14 01:11 PM
87.164.159.7
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Why should any weapon be mounted on a BattleMech?
To me, the key advantage of 'Mechs is that they can be dropped from orbit into pretty much any terrain as a fighting force, and have superior mobility as ground forces. You can either add ArtilleryMechs (be that tube or missile) to your portfolio, or accept that your supermobile cavalry is limited to orbital bombardment for artillery support.
Niche? Yes.
But that is no reason to discount the idea out-of-hand. No other vehicle can deploy like a 'Mech; and if your 'Mech force is to have organic artillery that needs to be 'Mech-mounted.
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Retry
03/13/14 01:21 PM
72.214.204.166
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I don't believe any of us discounted the idea.
(Partially false though; WiGEs can combat drop like a mech.)
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ghostrider
03/13/14 04:47 PM
66.27.181.33
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you know what works better on a vtol? bombs.
That is supposed to be the advantage of mech. Mobility.
Go anywhere they want, while vehicles can not.
Aircraft and aerofighters can not go into wood, but have to go over.
And without extra work, they can work in airless voids
And now 2 people have agreed with retry this month. What the hell is going on?
Now what is a WiGE?
Is it battle armor?
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Retry
03/13/14 05:07 PM
72.214.204.166
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Wing in Ground Effect. A hovercraft that removes it's vulnerable hover skirt for more vulnerable wings.
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Cray
03/13/14 07:31 PM
71.47.122.85
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:
I would say that was true retry, if the vehicle was a motorcycle.
I had thought the guns on a ship were not artillery, but direct fire weapons. I just my definitions are off.
They stopped being only direct fire weapons around 1905. The huge gain in ranges (from 5 miles to 25 miles) after the Russo-Japanese War were accomplished by firing at high angles. This presented a headache for battleship designers since they had to start armoring the decks of battleships as well as the flanks (since at short ranges battleships still fired directly), which is one of the things that drove the huge growth in battleships in the 1910 - 1940 period.
If you need a sleep aid, I recommend Friedman's "U.S. Battleships: An Illustrated Design History." It is illustrated, but it is also filled with 463 pages of 8-point font text that details every design consideration, variation, and concern that led to a given US battleship design. Among those concerns were the ever-advancing naval artillery.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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ghostrider
03/13/14 10:36 PM
66.27.181.33
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for some reason, I had the impression that idf became just ground based units.
Yes, battleships have weapons identified as artillery, but thought it was only because they didn't have another word to use for them.
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Retry
03/14/14 05:55 PM
76.7.238.202
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Really, artillery is nothing more than big guns.
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Karagin
03/14/14 06:19 PM
70.118.139.48
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Pretty much. Nothing more then large guns that lob shells onto a target.
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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LegatusDavoke
04/21/14 12:05 AM
99.101.200.202
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I'm being a jerk and bumping again, but this is a topic i quite frankly enjoy. I've designed a few mechs(mostly on the Helepolis chassis) to mount the Sniper Artillery(not the snub-nose cannon, the actual multi-map artillery), 3-5 tons of ammo, and some lasers as backup. So far, they've performed pretty well, even unsupported. Backing them up with some spotter lights and mediums when you're using Copperhead ammo quickly turns almost disgustingly brutal.
There'll be the devil to pay mate. Better make it good, eh?
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ghostrider
04/21/14 01:35 AM
24.30.142.80
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how is getting up to date with older threads being a jerk?
now if you were trolling or something then that would be a different story. There is still probably more to be said, just letting it rest a little before bringing it back up. I have known a couple of people get banned for not stepping back for a few days.
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LegatusDavoke
04/21/14 11:31 PM
99.101.200.202
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Oh good, i'm more used to forums where bringing something back after a month is looked down upon. 
There'll be the devil to pay mate. Better make it good, eh?
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mwam
10/02/15 07:43 PM
23.25.184.166
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Post deleted by Cray
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happyguy49
10/04/15 06:05 PM
98.30.242.159
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I like your thread-necromancy 
As for a 'Mech carrying artillery, LITERALLY "carrying" it, I think you could possibly do that with the existing Hand Held weapon rules! Especially if the mech you are using has Triple Strength Myomer.
A ballistic or missile weapon on a Handheld Weapon construct needs no heat sinks.. so it weighs the weight of the weapon, its ammunition, and some armor on the weapon if you want.
A 'handheld' Thumper artillery piece, with one ton of ammunition, (20 shots, enough) weighs 16 tons. An 80 tonner with two hands and TSM could carry and use it for instant artillery support, or even use it until it is in range of its regular guns then drop it.
A 'handheld' spheroid Arrow IV with two, three or four tons of ammunition and one ton of armor would weigh 18-20 tons.. carryable by a 90-100 tonner with two hand actuators and TSM. (picture a Banshee or Berserker swinging a gigantic bazooka onto its shoulders LOL)
..you couldn't get the bigger guns to work this way though. Sniper weighs 20, Long Tom 30. TSM is illegal in SuperHeavy mechs, so the heaviest handheld weapon a 'Mech of any weight could carry is 20 tons.
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Akirapryde2006
10/05/15 09:12 AM
71.100.132.249
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We built a Four Legged Mech to carry a Long Tom after the 3039 War. It was pretty successful in the Campaign. The Mech could move with the rest of the Corps over even the roughest of terrain. So successful was the idea that our heavy Artillery Units were all converted over to Mech/Artillery units. By the time the Clan Invasion happened, the conversion was at 80% of our entire force. If you are running a large multi battle campaign, than this concept is very helpful in running a fast mobile battle plan. The units could move in Terrain that Tanks couldn't. Plus using a Six Legged Design, The firing platform was more stable taking away from any firing penalties that came with using only four (Home Brew Rules). During the late 3040's, we even created a four legged Ammo Carrier that backed up to the firing mech. A conveyor moved Rounds to the reload platform to ease reload times (Again Home Brew Rules)
However as a rule of thumb, this idea was terrible for small short run tactical battles and raids. The Mech was too slow for the battle and reload times were too long. Due to limited armor and minimum ranges the mech was easy pickings for any other mech out there.
Right before the Battle of Tukayyid, we wanted to build on this idea. We took a Light Naval Auto-Cannon and mounted it to two of these heavy Artillery Mechs instead of their Long Toms the two mechs carried. We really thought we were on to something. However once the unit fired, it blew itself apart from the vibrations. It was a disaster that nearly cost us our Artillery unit. The sad thing was that we under estimated the ability of the cannon and our shot went long. It completely missed the main Clan unit. We were a cannon too far lol
If the game had continued passed that, I think we would have pressed the idea of Naval Auto-Cannons mounted in such a way. Thus giving Div-arty (Or Division Artillery) a new evolution. Or maybe we would have pressed for high accuracy and greater ranges. One never knows as the Battle of Tukayyid marked the end of that group's meeting. Ah such a sad sad moment in my life lol
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ghostrider
10/05/15 12:26 PM
98.150.102.177
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I can understand some of the issue with a short battle, but I don't see too much being wrong with mobile artillery for raids. You can't use them to try and kill everything, but surgical strikes would work well, like taking out a bunker or cluster of units. Fast raids can be an issue, but then speed of the arty mechs shouldn't be as important as the mechs that are doing the raid.
Using a 3/5 mech for artillery vs most assault mechs doesn't make sense on being to slow. The arty mech would be used in the initial part of the raid, then head out before the rest are done. Now a really slow mech would have some issues. 5 shots might be enough to atleast damage a target, if it doesn't go down, so limited ammo isn't an issue with a raid.
Mobile battles are a pain since the delay time makes hitting moving targets a pain. You could just target the best spots for a unit to hide in and hope for the best.
As a side note, you could mix up the artillery with snipers and thumpers as well. The biggest issue I have with artillery was getting it sited. Which helps when the enemy has it and you don't.
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Foxer
01/26/16 12:05 AM
108.44.85.230
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I mounted a Long Tom on an Atlas. Took most every critical and about the only thing I hit was my own J Edgar spotters....consistently. Scatter sucks. Over all my opinion is depends on terrain and if you are playing an arching simulation where the only ace you have is sending a piece where the vehicles can't go. Otherwise it's for cheese giggles and nothing more if playing a one shot or pick-up game.
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ghostrider
01/26/16 01:15 PM
98.150.102.177
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Mission parameters.
Unless you have a static target, artillery, especially those with long flight times, can be difficult to use. You could get lucky and hit the targets if you can keep them in a section you have a volley coming in. But for the most part, they are mainly useful for pre plotted hexes or against stationary or very slow units.
The homing missiles on the arrow system is about the only really reliable shots you have with mobile targets. Other then really using tactics, such as ganging up on a unit to force it to retreat, there isn't much more you can do.
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