TSM and Supercharger

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KamikazeJohnson
02/12/16 12:08 AM
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Just looking for clarification here on a TSM-Activated 'Mech using a Supercharger.

Base speed 6/9/0
Heat scale at 8.
-1 MP at 5 Heat: 5/8
+2 MP for activated TSM: 7/11
Supercharger doubles Walking MP or max Running MP: 7/11(14)

Gives the 'Mech a maximum speed of 14 MP, correct?
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
ghostrider
02/15/16 01:49 AM
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Wish I could help you with this one, but I don't have the newer rules to even guess at it.
It looks like those that do have other things to do then try a response.
Maybe they are afraid someone like me will start a rant about it? Who knows.

Thought I would try and shame someone into responding on this.

Honestly, I would think the 2 systems shouldn't work together, but again, My opinion.
KamikazeJohnson
02/15/16 04:11 PM
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:
Honestly, I would think the 2 systems shouldn't work together, but again, My opinion.



The rules prohibit TSM and MASC from working together because both are Myomer enhancements. MASC and Supercharger can work together because the Supercharger is an Engine enhancement. TSM is compatible with Supercharger for the same reason.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
ghostrider
02/16/16 04:36 AM
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From the looks of it, the 14 appears to be correct.

Still don't know how a supercharger could work on a fusion engine.
If it increases the electrical output of the engine, wouldn't that also cause havoc with the rest of the mechs systems, like weapons and computers? Overclocking is bad enough, but increasing power output by 125%? Sounds like more issues then just engine and myomer damage would occur.

I would think overriding the engine safety protocols might do the same thing. But I'm not a tech wizard.
KamikazeJohnson
02/16/16 02:17 PM
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:

From the looks of it, the 14 appears to be correct.

Still don't know how a supercharger could work on a fusion engine.
If it increases the electrical output of the engine, wouldn't that also cause havoc with the rest of the mechs systems, like weapons and computers? Overclocking is bad enough, but increasing power output by 125%? Sounds like more issues then just engine and myomer damage would occur.

I would think overriding the engine safety protocols might do the same thing. But I'm not a tech wizard.



TacOps (I believe) gives a brief description of how the Fusion Supercharger is supposed to work. I'm sure Cray will be along shortly to give the page reference
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
ghostrider
02/16/16 06:13 PM
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Might be me thinking of normal ice superchargers providing power to physically force more power thru the drive train. Something that doesn't happen with electricity. That comes from transformers and such.

Now that I think about it, I really do want to hear how it is supposed to work. Running the engine hotter for more power?
Somehow get more power out of the fuel used to run it sounds like magic. Otherwise, why not redesign the unit to use the enhanced settings?
Otherwise, it sounds like it performs like a masc, just increasing the power to the myomers and nothing else.
What am I missing?

(besides and engineering degree)
CrayModerator
02/16/16 06:17 PM
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Quote:
KamikazeJohnson writes:

TacOps (I believe) gives a brief description of how the Fusion Supercharger is supposed to work. I'm sure Cray will be along shortly to give the page reference



It gives MASC-like speed boosts, but the risks differ.

pg345 TacOps fluff:

Quote:
Essentially an override for the normal safety governors that limit modern
engine performance, superchargers can coax as much as 125 percent output
from fusion reactors and internal combustion engines alike. For fusion and
fission plants, this generally entails disabling safety inhibitors and the like,
while fuel-based systems inject a burst of specially designed chemicals into
the fuel mix to achieve similar results.

As might be expected, use of a supercharger carries significant risks to
the engine�s integrity, up to and including supercharger burnout or even
catastrophic engine failure



The most pertinent rules:

Quote:
The Supercharger enables a unit to move at twice its standard Cruising or Walking MP as an enhanced run, and follows the same rules to operate as MASC (see pp. 137, TW), with the following exceptions:



You make an activation roll like MASC. If it fails, the player rolls for crits and applies them to the uppermost undamaged critical slots in the center torso.

You can stack superchargers and MASC. If used in the same round, you roll separately for each items' misbehavior. If they both activate, you get a running MP equal to 2.5x walking, rounded up.

You can stack superchargers and TSM. If used together, the TSM bonus is added to the supercharger-modified speed.

Note that TSM and MASC are incompatible, so you can't stack superchargers, MASC, and TSM.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
ghostrider
02/16/16 06:24 PM
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Couldn't you do this with pure coding?
Just rewrite the software dealing with the fusion engine itself?
ghostrider
02/16/16 06:43 PM
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Interesting that the supercharger doubles the output of the fusion engine with NO addtional heat, though you add 2 points to run.
I kept thinking there was something off on this.

Did they omit or overlook this part?
KamikazeJohnson
02/16/16 07:44 PM
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:

Interesting that the supercharger doubles the output of the fusion engine with NO addtional heat, though you add 2 points to run.
I kept thinking there was something off on this.

Did they omit or overlook this part?



A very interesting question! For the answer, let's ask Prof. Wulfgang X. Finkelstein, Head of the New Avalon Institute of Advanced Handwavian Physics.

Quote:

Ze Zuper-CHARger is a highly advanced device, zat vorks through a PRO-cess ve call ze Finkelstein Effect, zee?

Ven ze Zuper-CHARger is ACtiVATed, it *waves hands vaguely* AMplifies ze energy sent to ze MYomers, causing ze speed increase. Ze extra heat zat ze PROcess generates is *waves hands vaguely* dissipated as ve see here, while transfering to ze MYomers, so no extra heat to ze heat scale. Are ve clear?




Thank you, Prof. Wulfgang X. Finkelstein (Head of the New Avalon Institute of Advanced Handwavian Physics) for clearing that up.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
ghostrider
02/16/16 11:36 PM
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I thought the physics department for Handwavian was looking into how to make politicians crap smell like roses?
Did they succeed?
I didn't see that if they did.

And thank you professor for taking the time out to educate those of us that are not fortunate enough to have what little brains we have expanded by higher education.
KamikazeJohnson
02/17/16 01:00 PM
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Quote:

You can stack superchargers and TSM. If used together, the TSM bonus is added to the supercharger-modified speed.



That's the part I was asking about, as in exactly how the effects stack. This thread suggests that the TSM effect is applied FIRST to determine the unit's Walking MP, then the Supercharger effect is applied based on that number. Which should mean that for my original question:

(6(Walking MP) -1(Heat) +2(TSM)) x2(Supercharger) = 14.

Is that correct? Or is it:

(6(Walking MP) -1(Heat)) x2(Supercharger) +(?)(TSM)
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
Drasnighta
02/17/16 02:00 PM
198.53.98.65

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I think the 14 is going to be the correct result...

The Post seems to say that is the way it will be ordered in errata, so your mathematical function is correct.


Walking of 6.

-1 Due to Heat.

+2 due to Triple Strength Myomer active.

Which gives a Walking of 7.

Normally, your Running would be 11 at this point.

But Supercharger is x2 instead of x1.5

So you're at 14.

7 / 11 (14)




If you were doing it the other way around...

Would be Walking of 6
-1 Due to Heat

Walking of 5

Supercharger doubles to 10 for running

Triple Strength Myomer then adds to baseline walk (but not run at this point)

Which would make you 7 / (10)

... Which is actually *SLOWER* than just one or the other...


So I guess the only way it works to make you faster would be to add the Walking Mods together first, including TSM, and then Double to find the Running...
CEO Heretic BattleMechs.
CrayModerator
02/17/16 06:33 PM
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Quote:
KamikazeJohnson writes:

Which should mean that for my original question:

(6(Walking MP) -1(Heat) +2(TSM)) x2(Supercharger) = 14.

Is that correct? Or is it:

(6(Walking MP) -1(Heat)) x2(Supercharger) +(?)(TSM)



Neither, since I think you're applying the heat at the wrong place in the parentheses. Quoting directly:

"A �Mech may combine a Supercharger with Triple-Strength Myomer. If both are used in the same round, the Triple Strength Myomer modifi er is added to the Supercharger-modifi ed speed."

So, you start by applying the supercharger modifier, then (per TSM rules) the heat modifier, then the TSM bonus.

New Running: {6 [walking] x2 [supercharger]} -1 [heat] +2 [TSM]: running 13.

If I'm wrong about the heat, then your second one is correct since you apply TSM after supercharger.

I'd click on the link you provided, but Google still flags it as malware-infected.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
CrayModerator
02/17/16 06:41 PM
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:

Couldn't you do this with pure coding?
Just rewrite the software dealing with the fusion engine itself?



Maybe, but then you'd miss the chance to have this on the front hood of your fusion-powered 'Mech?

More seriously, no. Just like IC engines (and supercharger is available for IC engines), you need some additional widgets bolted to the fusion reactor to get the job done. It's not much, just 10% of engine mass rounded up to the nearest half ton and always using one crit. For fusion engines, it's probably related to the regenerative turbines in the "engine heat sinks."
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
ghostrider
02/17/16 09:55 PM
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What about the lack of extra heat in the unit that is being pushed to 125% of operating efficiency?
And pushing it to walk is +1. Run is +2.
I would figure max operating efficiency would be the +2, but something is missing here as well. The power for the weapons, but for now we are just focusing on the movement heat.

Or did the handwavian methodology get used with the Smokus Mirrorus Rectumitis variant?

(for the layman that means smoke and mirrors from the human backside.)
CrayModerator
02/18/16 06:25 PM
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:

What about the lack of extra heat in the unit that is being pushed to 125% of operating efficiency?



What about it? An Atlas moving at 5MP generates as much heat as an Urbanmech moving at 3 or a Charger moving at 8 despite enormous differences in engine rating. Adding a little more power from a supercharger's not going to matter much.

And, in any case, movement power draws are much lower than those of energy weapons. It takes a lot of horsepower to evaporate a half ton of iron alloy and ceramics in the space of one turn.

Quote:
Or did the handwavian methodology get used with the Smokus Mirrorus Rectumitis variant?



Pretty much. If you can power a PPC, you power an Atlas to race a top fuel dragster.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
ghostrider
02/19/16 03:25 AM
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So that opens up the question why does a running mech build up more heat then a walking mech? I thought that was pushing the engine to a higher performance level. Or is that wrong?

Fine point. Horsepower does not really evaporate armor, but things like joules or amps of energy does. Kinetic force as well, but I guess to power the weapons with an ICE would require some horsepower.


And it is interesting that an urban mech moving 3 generates more heat then a locust or spider walking 8. With the supercharger though pushes it to 16 with no additional heat. Faster then a run without extra heat. Trying hard not to be a smart **** with this in asking the next question, but the only way I can think of is being blunt.
Is magic being used to distort common physics?
Or am I under a confusion spell and missed something in science that allows more power to be produced without extra heat in the reactor?
I was always taught to increase power something else had to give, or more energy had to be introduced into the system.
Did they change something since I went to high school in the mid 80's?
Akalabeth
02/19/16 02:41 PM
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It's self cooling
CrayModerator
02/21/16 01:52 PM
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:

Fine point. Horsepower does not really evaporate armor, but things like joules or amps of energy does. Kinetic force as well, but I guess to power the weapons with an ICE would require some horsepower.



The amount of energy (aka "work" in physics jargon) required to melt and evaporate armor is measured in units like calories, joules, British thermal units, ergs, and so on.

The rate of energy delivery ("power" in physics lingo) is energy divided by time: watts, horsepower, and so on. For example, 1 Watt equals 1 Joule per second. 1 horsepower is a non-metric measurement equal to 747 watts.

Those terms of energy and power may be used regardless of whether you're talking about electricity, lasers, heat, mechanical effort, or other any other situation where some sort of energy is delivered in a known time.

For example, it is reasonable to say that a 2016 Mustang GT350's 5L V8 delivers 533 horsepower at its wheels, or 392 kilowatts if you're in metric countries. In other words, when you floor the throttle, you can get 392,000 Joules per second at the wheels of a Mustang.

You can also say that an M1A2 Abrams' 120mm M289A3 APFSDSDU penetrator (10kg at 1555m/s) carries 12,090,125 Joules at the muzzle. (Kinetic energy equaling 0.5 x mass x velocity x velocity). Since the 0.8-meter penetrator will cross its own length in .00051 seconds, it delivers that 12 megajoules at 23,529,411,764 Watts: 31.5 million horsepower, if you pardon the rounding.

The National Ignition Facility's uber-lasers deliver a grand total of 4 megajoules to target fusion capsules in a bajillionith of a second for 500 terawatts, or 670 billion horsepower. That sounds like a lot of power, but the more important value is the joules: joules measure work accomplished, and only 4 megajoules were delivered (about 4 sticks of dynamite). They were just delivered really, really fast, so the power is high. And it is perfectly valid to measure the power in watts or (if you want to make your physics teachers weep) horsepower.

The USAF's canceled Airborne Laser delivered a 1-megawatt beam for sustained bursts of several seconds, so it could deliver 4 megajoules (like NIF) but in 4 seconds rather than a few nanoseconds. This could be described as a 1338 horsepower laser since there's a fixed ratio between Watts and horsepower.

Anyway, that brings us around to Battletech. If you want to melt (say) 8 points of standard armor (500 kilograms), then you need a fixed amount of energy to raise the aligned crystal, radiation-treated steel and diamond-reinforced boron nitride to their boiling/sublimation points. The heats of fusion and heat capacity of those materials are fixed. There is thus a known value in Joules (or calories, or BTUs, or ergs) to accomplish the melting of 500kg of armor with a large laser.

The question becomes "How fast do you want to melt the 500kg of steel and ceramic?" If you measured the energy required to melt the armor in Joules, and you measure the time required to melt the armor in seconds, then you get a value in Watts for the laser. Or divide by 747 to get the power in Horsepower.

My high school physics teacher liked to keep us on the metric system for all manner of energy / power calculations (as did my chemistry teachers), but would throw in some questions involving horsepower and other non-metric values on final exams to mess with our heads.

The places for amps and other, non-energy, non-power units of measurement is upstream of the armor melting. For example, after you figure out how many joules you need at the target in a certain number of seconds, you know how many watts you need out of the laser. Then you can start measuring amps in the electrical lines to see how big the cables need to be and how many horsepower the engine needs to feed to the laser.

Quote:
And it is interesting that an urban mech moving 3 generates more heat then a locust or spider walking 8. With the supercharger though pushes it to 16 with no additional heat. Faster then a run without extra heat. Trying hard not to be a smart **** with this in asking the next question, but the only way I can think of is being blunt.



It goes back to my earlier point: waste heat from movement, as it manifests in myomers, doesn't add up to much compared to energy weaponry. 1 or 2 points, it's a rounding error.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
KamikazeJohnson
02/21/16 04:33 PM
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Quote:
Cray writes:

*Several pages of highly informative Technobabble*



See kids? THIS is why we keep him around.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
ghostrider
02/21/16 11:12 PM
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Wasn't aware of them using horsepower when dealing with energy like that. I had always heard it used for physical force, not a measure of energy like electricity. Nice to learn something new.

As for the walking question if waste heat is from movement, that really doesn't explain why a myomer bundle moving fast enough to cause a mech to walk 8-16 hexes does not generate more then even the 2 movement for the urban mech, much less more heat for the run movement of 3. Might be old physics suggesting the further and faster something moves, they more heat or friction is caused when it does so, well at least in a friction environment. Space does distort some of this.

Technically the same bundle used in the urban mech could be used in the spider. Both are 30 tons, though I do know they are different lengths, shapes, and such. But made from the same material. I guess this should go into another thread, and not jacking this one.
happyguy49
02/23/16 09:52 AM
98.30.242.159

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Quick confirmation question added to Kamikaze's: Hardened armor just shaves off one running MP from whatever the final max running MP is, correct? So, his 6/9 mech regularly would be a 6/8 with hardened armor, with TSM active it goes to 7/10, with supercharger active it goes to (6*2=12)-1 for total of 11, with both TSM and supercharger active it would be (7*2=14)-1 for a max speed of 13. Is this right?
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