Zeus X4.....why?

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Maurer
02/08/16 01:46 AM
45.48.53.140

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Anyone is hard pressed to make me believe that the Successor States could not reverse engineer Clan tech in a similar time frame. By the 3060's, Clan tech should have been the standard across the major powers of the Inner Sphere (or at least the Fed-Com, Comstar and the Draconis Combine)



The Inner Sphere reverse engineered Clan Tech or copied it to make it work. It's not as efficient as the Clans, who refined weaponry to make it better. Given time, I think eventually the Inner Sphere will refine their weaponry to the level of the Clans, barring some future event in the time line where the Clans refine their weapons even more (Clan ER Large Laser II !)
"Captain! We're completely surrounded on all sides." - Kiff, Futurama
..."Excellent, then we may attack in any direction." - Zapp Brannigan, Futurama

"A fool fights a war on two fronts; only an idiot defends on one." - Fusilier


Edited by Maurer (02/08/16 01:48 AM)
ghostrider
02/08/16 11:39 AM
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I am missing something here. Where did they say they copied the tech, but it was less efficient?
The only thing I have seen was the star league tech, then clan tech. It is possible I missed something, and would like to know where to look.

Cray mentioned something about clan tech being made but was outrageously expensive, and that brought forth the prototypes always costing more then a finished product, especially once it has been produced for a while.

For some items, it would be worth the cost to do the clan tech even though it is a bit more difficult like Endo steel. The factories can only produce so much, well if you have half the bulk of it, that would give you more space to store it while making more. Space at the factory sort of concept. Less materials used as well.
And this is not even touching the missile launchers.

As I said before, they would at least be samples on the elite units, such as the davion assault guards or crusius lancers. Not to mention others. No matter what the cost, some units would be worth equipping with it. And frankly relying on the clans, once they finally started selling, is never a good idea. As Maurer suggest, research would still be going on, so things like combat research needs prototypes and having them being used.

And I can see refinements down the line, as the clan tech is a refinement to the star league tech. I know it isn't in the books anymore, but the weight and crit reduction for normal weapons is a good indication that is was possible. Granted some weapons could not drop, ie minimum one ton/one crit medium laser was not effected.
Maurer
02/10/16 06:19 PM
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It is not something quite literal and written somewhere. If you look at the weapon stats themselves, clan weapons are more powerful, lighter, compact, and longer range than the Inner Sphere. To me, that would imply there was a form of refinement through research and development to improve the technology to new standards.

Compare Inner Sphere standard lasers and pulse lasers to X-Pulse lasers. Inner Sphere pulse lasers are marginally better then standard lasers (in most situations) for a significant reduction in range and increased tonnage. Then along comes X-Pulse lasers after the Clan invasion, which increase the range up to standard laser ranges, but not Clan pulse laser ranges. Most likely, the Inner Sphere had to reverse engineer Clan technology (not just studding the weapons themselves, but probably also the construction technology as well) to increase the capability of IS pulse lasers.
"Captain! We're completely surrounded on all sides." - Kiff, Futurama
..."Excellent, then we may attack in any direction." - Zapp Brannigan, Futurama

"A fool fights a war on two fronts; only an idiot defends on one." - Fusilier
ghostrider
02/10/16 11:58 PM
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I agree that some things would take a while to reverse engineer. The half weight missile launchers is a good place to start.

The only place I have seen any reference to the innersphere making clan grade weapons was on the forums here. It was suggested that they did, but the costs were so outrageous, they didn't so more then a prototype.
The fact that even in the 3100's the innersphere powers have not been able to make clan grade weapons in any real sort of fashion makes it sound like the game got to a point and said you can't use the enemies equipment, because it is too powerful for you to use against them. Hated that crap playing D&D as well as alot of games besides that. Even the tv shows got old doing that.

I do understand they need to keep war in the game, but introducing the death star to fight, will lead someone else to finally build one themselves. Then everyone will. And so far there is nothing said about new materials used in making the items, so something simple like raiding an innersphere factory making clan tech, like in the ghost bears area, should give them some idea on how to upgrade their stocks. They would have issues getting the 'new' materials in the innersphere and would have someone leak that information to the outside.

And it doesn't deal with ammunition incompatibilities either. I find it very unlikely that the greater ranges of the weapons used by the clans is all do to the launcher and nothing change with the ammunition.

Now with this mech being canon, it shows how little they really deal with funds when designing something. Yet they make it sound like funds and resources prevent them from doing anything that makes sense, like icbms or cruise missiles. SDS systems in the most important areas such as jump ship construction areas, or defiance industries. I don't care that it would make raiding it almost impossible, because that is what these systems are designed for. Once you open that can of worms, you can not say you can't use it. With all the research stations and secret bases, there HAS to be more of that laying around.
Yeah, back to not finding upgraded tech in stashes, but the working model of mechs used 300 years after the fall and they have the same level tech as the current age? Not upgrade or even different in any way?
I know they didn't think about this stuff when they first made it, but it is crap, the developers use these very caches to put out adventure packs or novels. Even their favorite units seem to find the newest things that only exist from that point on.
Consistency seems to be missing.
Karagin
02/12/16 08:02 AM
61.40.222.5

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The ingame answer to the who why didn't the IS copy Clan tech etc...is money and the lack of factories to build, now this is true at the beginning of the Clan Wars and up to about I would say 3058, after that they would have come up with copies of things and kept pushing till they had better versions. That is if this was real life, it's not. Game balance and issues like that tend to keep things were they are. How does a single group go from nothing to become the biggest threat to mankind in 21 years? The writers wanted it that way.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Retry
02/14/16 02:07 PM
68.103.19.152

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In real life technological advances lead to offensive or defensive technologies becoming completely trumped and obsolete. A newer and heavier tank is now impervious to lighter anti-tank weapon systems, making them completely obsolete. A new high-velocity cannon is developed that makes said heavier tank very vulnerable and obsolete. The Ballistic Cap made traditional solid shot obsolete. The Discarding Sabot made the APBC and APCBC shots obsolete. Reactive armor, composite armor, and spaced armor vastly decreases the effectiveness of high-explosive anti-tank shells. The Jet engine renders the propeller propulsion system obsolete in the high-performance aircraft role. The maturing of guided missile technology makes guns virtually obsolete in many applications including anti-aircraft and arguably anti-tank roles. The list goes on and on.

There is no such push factors in Battletech. The more advanced weapon might weigh slightly less, it may take up slightly less critical spaces, it might shoot a bit further, it might hit a bit harder. But ultimately all you get is a bit more advanced derivative of a basic weapon. The modification is the difference of a few extra points of HP inflicted instead of whether you end up dealing any damage whatsoever. Thus, to even the odds, it is not necessary to convert everything to the newer and higher tech gadgets, you just need to produce a few more of your current units and you're back on tactical parity.
RockJock
02/14/16 09:36 PM
64.79.144.10

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I agree with old technology not being completely obsolete in the BT universe. An IS LL has many situations that make it a better fitting weapon then an IS ERLL due to heat and so on. An IS ERLL is only ever an advantage over a Clan ERLL due to cost/difficulty of construction/lack of factories line of thought.

When you have close to a dozen IS laser technologies now "in production" the lack of factories is out, and in my mind the difficulty issue as well. The major powers have had examples for a century now, and in the Republic, DC, and LC you have Clan populations making weapons for themselves without the price being that big a factor.

If the cost of Clan weapons was 10x or whatever for the Clans as well as the IS, and the Clans fielded a better, but smaller military I could buy that. I have an M1A2, you have 4 T-55s as a comparison.


On a side note, mechs didn't replace armor, BA didn't replace leg infantry, and aero fighters didn't replace airbreathers in BT all because of economy right?


Edited by RockJock (02/14/16 09:41 PM)
ghostrider
02/15/16 01:38 AM
98.150.102.177

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I would love to hear someone that was there when the developers where thinking of the star league. They way it sounded, mechs did replace armor and aerofighters did replace atmospheric craft. It was implied, armor made a huge comeback as the need for defenses without the high tech of things like fusion engines to defend as the mech were the last resort concept for defense.

Now the idea of technology moving on, has given me a thought. Suggest the newer armors resist the newer weapons enough that the older ones are less effective, like maybe do half damage now. So 2 points for a small with a medium doing 3. And with that, range would drop as the lasers would need to remain focused even longer in the same spot. The weapons would still work normally on older armor, but targeting issues would be the cause of less range on the new armor. Just a stupid idea.

As for range, how many canon games actually have maps that allow a gauss rifle to fire at long ranges? The ac 2? Unless you are lucky or the opponent isn't thinking, not many canon war packs have the wide open space to deal with it. Only effective ranges are the issue. Range might not be the god of all things if they had some sensor issues with the game. Can't get a lock on the unit past 15 range without advanced sensors or extra targeting computers. Maybe even costing weight and space like the extra targeting comps the clans have. Make that standard in units now with the advanced armors.

Maybe even standard ecm on units that take up space standard. No more free shots. in the fluff of several units, they suggest the unit does not have radar or mad detectors. Maybe a new line of equipment. Different levels of sensors/ecm.
It will hurt the relative simplicity of the game, but it might actually cover why the ranges of the futuristic guns are less then current day weapons.
And I don't care what anyone might say. I would spend 5 mil on a cruise missile that would take out a drop ship before it hits the atmosphere. But that kills the game, so reality needs to remain fiction to it.
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