Achzarit

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Karagin
04/12/16 10:28 AM
61.40.222.5

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Code:
           BattleTech Vehicle Technical Readout
* CUSTOM WEAPONS

Type/Model: Achzarit
Tech: Inner Sphere / 3060
Config: Tracked Vehicle
Rules: Level 3, Standard design

Mass: 45 tons
Power Plant: 180 Medessa MkIV I.C.E.
Cruise Speed: 43.2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64.8 km/h
Armor Type: Dura Weave Lt Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:
1 LeSalle Grenadier Grenade Launcher
1 DMI MM Mk1 'Mech Mortar/1
4 DMI Sure Shot Magshots*
Manufacturer: Dyan Military Industries
Location: Dyan
Communications System: Datacom 60
Targeting & Tracking System: Meiji Multispec TargetTrack

--------------------------------------------------------
Type/Model: Achzarit
Mass: 45 tons
Construction Options: Fractional Accounting

Equipment: Items Mass
Int. Struct.: 20 pts Standard 0 4.50
Engine: 180 I.C.E. 0 14.00
Cruise MP: 4
Flank MP: 6
Heat Sinks: 0 Single 0 .00
Cockpit & Controls: 0 2.25
Crew: 3 Members 0 .00
Armor Factor: 182 pts Lt Ferro-Fibrous 1 10.73

Internal Armor
Structure Value
Front: 5 50
Left / Right Sides: 5 44/44
Rear: 5 44

Weapons and Equipment Loc Heat Ammo Items Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
1 Grenade Launcher Front 0 1 .50
1 'Mech Mortar/1 Body 0 24 2 3.00
2 Magshots* Front 0 50 3 2.00
1 Magshot* Left 0 1 .50
1 Magshot* Right 0 1 .50
1 Bulldozer Front 1 2.00
Infantry Bay Body 1 5.00
Tank telephone Body 1 .02
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS: 0 12 45.00
Items & Tons Left: 2 .00

Calculated Factors:
Total Cost: 689,403 C-Bills
Battle Value 2: 658 (old BV = 292)
Cost per BV: 1,047.72
Weapon Value: 196 / 196 (Ratio = .30 / .30)
Damage Factors: SRDmg = 7; MRDmg = 2; LRDmg = 0
BattleForce2: MP: 4T, Armor/Structure: 0 / 7
Damage PB/M/L: 1/1/-, Overheat: 0
Class: GM; Point Value: 7
Specials: tran5, eng
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Drasnighta
04/12/16 10:56 AM
198.53.98.65

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Gesundheit.

CEO Heretic BattleMechs.
Retry
04/14/16 08:50 PM
68.103.19.152

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I don't believe 'Mech Mortars can be body-mounted.
Karagin
04/15/16 05:09 AM
61.40.222.5

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Retry show me the rule and I will change it.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
CarcerKango
04/15/16 07:57 AM
73.4.87.73

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I don't think any weapons can be body mounted as they have no arc of fire that way, sorry.
Karagin
04/15/16 08:02 AM
61.40.222.5

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Show me a rule in a rule book and I will change it.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
CarcerKango
04/15/16 07:19 PM
73.4.87.73

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I don't know, I just know that none of the design programs allow it. And what arc of fire would it have if it was body-mounted?
Karagin
04/15/16 11:43 PM
61.40.222.5

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Actually the Official Vehicle Design Program for Battletech called Heavy Metal Vee does allow, and the arc of fire would be up and then over to land somewhere around the vehicle.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Shadrak
04/16/16 09:55 AM
70.199.5.33

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What is a tank telephone?
ghostrider
04/16/16 11:20 AM
66.74.61.223

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It is a car phone that the crew used to contact their deities when they get ordered to hold the line so the commanders can run from the battle?

I wondered about the tank telephone myself, but didn't want to be the one to ask.
Best real guess, just miscellaneous things to show cargo space.

Though a retrofit of the 70's cell phone found in a museum might also work.
Retry
04/16/16 12:38 PM
68.103.19.152

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Quote:
Karagin writes:

Actually the Official Vehicle Design Program for Battletech called Heavy Metal Vee does allow, and the arc of fire would be up and then over to land somewhere around the vehicle.



That's nice.

Now show the rule that weapons mounted in the body "firing arc" behaves in any way resembling what you claim.
Akalabeth
04/16/16 04:32 PM
108.180.183.124

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Quote:
Karagin writes:

Retry show me the rule and I will change it.



Howabout trusting someone at face value and looking up the rule yourself instead of asking them to do the work for you?

Tech Manual page 107
Items mounted in the vehicle's
"Body" - indicating a central position on the unit - may not
have a firing arc at all; only items that are not weapons (such
as ammunition and sensors) may be placed in this area.
Karagin
04/16/16 10:22 PM
61.40.222.5

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Well Akalabeth since many around here claim the rules don't allow something all the time asking them to prove it is a nicer way of saying other things that come to mind. And I don't trust anything on the Internet, since wait it's an open source of information that anyone can post what they want and people will believe it.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
04/16/16 10:25 PM
61.40.222.5

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Quote:
Shadrak writes:

What is a tank telephone?



Tank Phone is a field telephone that is found in a box mounted at the rear of older tanks, and it allows infantry and others to talk to the tank commander and give him more information about what is around them as well as allow the infantry commander the chance to direct the tank to support the infantry. A good example of this is shown in the movie FULL METAL JACKET.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
04/16/16 10:32 PM
61.40.222.5

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Code:
          BattleTech Vehicle Technical Readout
* CUSTOM WEAPONS

Type/Model: Achzarit
Tech: Inner Sphere / 3060
Config: Tracked Vehicle
Rules: Level 3, Standard design

Mass: 45 tons
Power Plant: 180 Medessa MkIV I.C.E.
Cruise Speed: 43.2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64.8 km/h
Armor Type: Dura Weave Lt Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:
1 LeSalle Grenadier Grenade Launcher
1 DMI MM Mk1 'Mech Mortar/1
4 DMI Sure Shot Magshots*
Manufacturer: Dyan Military Industries
Location: Dyan
Communications System: Datacom 60
Targeting & Tracking System: Meiji Multispec TargetTrack

--------------------------------------------------------
Type/Model: Achzarit
Mass: 45 tons
Construction Options: Fractional Accounting

Equipment: Items Mass
Int. Struct.: 20 pts Standard 0 4.50
Engine: 180 I.C.E. 0 14.00
Cruise MP: 4
Flank MP: 6
Heat Sinks: 0 Single 0 .00
Cockpit & Controls: 0 2.25
Crew: 3 Members 0 .00
Armor Factor: 182 pts Lt Ferro-Fibrous 1 10.73

Internal Armor
Structure Value
Front: 5 50
Left / Right Sides: 5 44/44
Rear: 5 44

Weapons and Equipment Loc Heat Ammo Items Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
1 Grenade Launcher Front 0 1 .50
1 'Mech Mortar/1 Front 0 24 2 3.00
2 Magshots* Front 0 50 3 2.00
1 Magshot* Left 0 1 .50
1 Magshot* Right 0 1 .50
1 Bulldozer Front 1 2.00
Infantry Bay Body 1 5.00
Tank telephone Body 1 .02
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS: 0 12 45.00
Items & Tons Left: 2 .00

Calculated Factors:
Total Cost: 689,403 C-Bills
Battle Value 2: 658 (old BV = 292)
Cost per BV: 1,047.72
Weapon Value: 196 / 196 (Ratio = .30 / .30)
Damage Factors: SRDmg = 7; MRDmg = 2; LRDmg = 0
BattleForce2: MP: 4T, Armor/Structure: 0 / 7
Damage PB/M/L: 1/1/-, Overheat: 0
Class: GM; Point Value: 7
Specials: tran5, eng
[\code]
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
04/16/16 10:33 PM
61.40.222.5

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Quote:
Retry writes:

That's nice.

Now show the rule that weapons mounted in the body "firing arc" behaves in any way resembling what you claim.



Are you offering anything to the topic or just trying to start a fight? Hard to tell with comments like that.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Retry
04/17/16 01:32 AM
68.103.19.152

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Quote:
Karagin writes:

Are you offering anything to the topic or just trying to start a fight? Hard to tell with comments like that.



You demanded a source for weapons not being able to be body mounted, I demanded a source for the claim that it can be body mounted and for some reason have a firing arc of anywhere because "HMP didn't call it illegal".

Akalabeth then did us both a favor and posted the actual rules. You corrected it shortly after.
ghostrider
04/17/16 01:47 AM
66.74.61.223

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As suggested in another thread, the issue of programs not having everything 100% correct should be moved into it own thread.
And as a friendly reminder, the very topic was a bad slope to play on.
The difference might be the official backing, though it may have been something they didn't test completely. Log it to the programmer and leave it. If it comes up again in the next upgrade, then there is an issue.

And as it was said Karagin would change it when shown the proper information, he did.
Hopefully, this ends the program issue.

Now for some reason, I would think the infantry would have comms sets to be in contact with the tank crews, but then they can't hit anything worth a crap beyond a good throwing range, so what do I know.
100 yards is about 91.5 meters.
So a quarter back can throw a grenade about as far as mgs on units are accurate. Go figure.
Akalabeth
04/17/16 01:53 AM
108.180.183.124

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Quote:
Karagin writes:

Well Akalabeth since many around here claim the rules don't allow something all the time asking them to prove it is a nicer way of saying other things that come to mind. And I don't trust anything on the Internet, since wait it's an open source of information that anyone can post what they want and people will believe it.



Asking someone to prove it is not a nicer way of saying anything. It's just confrontational.
A nicer way would be to investigate the claim yourself, and if failing to find anything, request that someone direct you to the relevant source.
Karagin
04/17/16 03:11 AM
61.40.222.5

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It would also be amazing if folks would just comment vs finding faults, but that's not going to happen given the current ego issues many seem to have.

So moving this back on topic, if you have comments about the tank, please post them, save all the other crap for PMs.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
CrayModerator
04/17/16 06:21 PM
72.189.109.30

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Quote:
Shadrak writes:

What is a tank telephone?



Historically, infantry and tanks work closely together. Infantry will huddle up behind the mobile fortress while covering its blind spots, especially in urban situations whether the sum of infantry and tank is much greater than its individual parts. To communicate easily with a buttoned-up tank, armies stick telephones on their butts.

Telephone:
http://www.xenophon-mil.org/milhist/marinemuseum/p1030400s.htm
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/738/21116704365_897c4795ab_o.jpg

Infantry close to tanks:
http://media.dma.mil/2013/Jun/26/2000027233/600/400/0/130620-M-XZ121-299.JPG
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/lovesick-cyborg/files/2014/10/ww2-Sherman-troops.jpg
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Akalabeth
04/18/16 02:06 PM
64.251.81.66

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Well the tank seems too slow as a battlearmour carrier given the mobility that many battle armour have and why does it have a 5-ton bay rather than a 4-ton bay? Or if it's not a battle armour carrier, what sort of formation is it carrying? Two foot platoons is 6 tons not 5, and most other infantry types pose the same mobility problem that makes it ill-suited to carry BA.

It also seems over-armoured given its role as an IFV / support vehicle.
ghostrider
04/18/16 03:02 PM
66.74.61.223

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Something the game does not deal with is fatigue of units. So most don't bother thinking about it.
Even with the battle armors movement, the troops still has to do the actual walking which may be a mile, 10 miles or across have the world. I would assume even elementals would like a break once in a while, especially if they are going to a battle. Instead of being tired, they rested in the transport. is it as efficient as say a hover or vtol? Probably not.

Another reason for a large by might be extra equipment or maybe specialist going with the unit. Again, the game does not really deal with this. Even extra ammo to reload in the field can fill the extra space.

And just because the game runs certain sized units, does not mean people don't have their own units with more/less people. Not easy to deal with, but it does happen.

Then again, it may be something to be different with. Karagin was one to say not all units should be min/maxed.

Now the over armored thing might be good if they need to deploy in a city. Give the troops some change to survive long enough to get out of the unit.
Karagin
04/18/16 06:00 PM
61.40.222.5

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So how much does battlearmor weigh again? Normal suit is 1 ton...so let's 5 elementals would be 5 tons. Now since I am not on my computer at the moment, silly POS Korean smart phone, could you tell me Akalabeth which book stats clearly for once, how much infantry weighs to be carried in vehicles, since over the years we have seen some amazing numbers and very odd ball takes on this even from canon designs and sources. SO your math is 14 guys are going to weigh 6 tons, now is this 14 troopers with gear and rifles and their support weapons? Is this 14 guys with nothing but weapons? Is this a heavy platoon?

Over armored, how so? Given that it has to make it through a hell storm of PPCs, ACs, RACs, Missiles, Lasers and Gauss fire among other things, just to do it's job, so how is it over armored? And I am not in the habit of min/maxing which I think we have covered before, so how is it over armored to bring it's main weapon the infantry or battlearmor to the fight?

Yes it is not a hover craft, it is a IFV that can do other things, it is built to fight in cities or in rough terrain, hence the tracked part. It is not a tank, nor is it going to be used, I hope no one would think to use it as such, as one. The Magi, in case you didn't know about it, is a canon vehicle with a similar role, so the idea is not new for the game. And given that the game doesn't allow hover vehicles to have the abilities of things like dozer blades etc...yeah limits what can be used and still have something for the infantry.

So please let me know which sourcebook you used to get your infantry information and I will look it over, but I am happy with the infantry setup for this IFV, but would still be interested in seeing how you came up with your math.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Akalabeth
04/18/16 06:32 PM
64.251.81.66

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Medium Battle armour typically weighs 1 ton.
Inner Sphere squads are 4 troopers. Hence 4 tons.
Comguard formations have 6 troopers, hence 6 tons.
You have an Inner Sphere vehicle with a 5-ton bay, which is tonnage typical of a clan formation.

For regular infantry, previous iterations of the rules have
Foot Platoons @ 3 tons (28 troops)
Jump Platoons @ 4 tons (21 troops)
Motor Platoons @ 6 tons (28 troops)

and one squad of foot infantry (7 troops) weighs 1 ton (see Goblin).

Newer rulesets have tried to maintain these tonnages and for the most part it seems to ring true. Though some heavier support weapons or squads with 2 support weapons instead of one or heavy armour may weigh more. So unless you have a 1 MP battlearmour which is more than 1 ton but less than 1.25, or some other infantry with a specific 5-ton formation, it doesn't fit a lot of canon formations. Unless this is intended to be a low-tech clan unit, but that's not stated anywhere as the vehicle has no description.


The vehicle seems over-armoured because it appears to be an urban tank not meant to face other combat vehicles. It has a token, indirect-fire weapon suggesting indirect combat and 4 glorified machine guns best against infantry and a bulldozer presumably for dealing with rubbled cities, etcetera. On the open battlefield, particularly 3055+ and later it's too slow to perform its combat role of delivering infantry. No amount of armour will save it from getting shot to pieces and any regular 3 Jump MP battlearmour would be better off outside of the vehicle from the start of the battle against everything except artillery.

Against infantry, the armour is excessive as the vehicle will be disabled or destroyed by crits well before the armour is exhausted.

For an urban battle, given the choice I'd rather take an Ignis which is superior against conventional infantry with heavy armour and the same movement profile but for less cost/tonnage. Any battle armour could simply walk alongside or ride with mag clamps if the design allows.

The Magi is poor as an IFV, but does benefit from a higher movement profile (5/8) and heavier armament suitable for supporting infantry against light vehicles, though its role can done cheaper by the Vedette Laser Variant.
ghostrider
04/18/16 08:48 PM
66.74.61.223

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Wow another hole in the game. 1 infantry squad of foot soldiers is 1 ton, yet 4 of them is 3 tons.
I've been out of school for a while, but basic math hasn't changed since then.

The master rules do support the numbers for what the infantry uses, so unless they changed it since then, akalabeth is correct. Though Karagin did asks for the sourcebook used.

The goblin as well as all the infantry carriers in the 3026 with the exception of maxim reserved 1 ton for troops, which shows the vehicles need updating in that aspect. This includes the apcs, which are supposed to carry ANY unarmored infantry.
The maxim shows 3 tons, so platoon size movement.

I do wonder where it is stated that units are supposed to mount less armor on them because they are not supposed to engage in combat?
It is not as efficient as other units, but not everything here has to be extreme efficient.

Now to add a new question to the rant.
How much space does an engineering unit use?
I can see this being used to clear a path for other to follow, or even build a barricade to trap units that can not just push thru things, or narrow down their choices of movement.
But the game does not really have much in the way of rules for things like that style of tactics.
Akalabeth
04/18/16 09:13 PM
64.251.81.66

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3 tons / 4 squads = .75 which is rounded up to 1 ton for the one squad since Battletech is .5 or 1 ton increments.

It's pretty obvious.
ghostrider
04/18/16 11:40 PM
66.74.61.223

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tell that to the fractional accounting people. Which is quite a few on the boards.
And with the 1 ton per squad, it should be 4 tons by the math. 4*1=4.
No where in anything does it say .75.
It does follow the math for the 4 squads though so another issue that needs to be clarified in the rules.

A stupid thought came to mind with this thread. Battle armor moves thru more terrain, better then this apc does. May not be as fast on roads over the long haul, but again, issues with movement in the game.
Shadrak
04/18/16 11:50 PM
98.101.165.116

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I mean in game...I hadn't seen the equipment as an option.
Akalabeth
04/19/16 01:08 AM
108.180.183.124

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A foot platoon of 4 squads is 3 tons
A foot squad is 1 ton

3/4 = .75 rounded up to 1

4 squads at .75 each is 3 tons
But the cargo is bought in 1 ton lots so 1 ton = 1 squad.

This is not hard to understand.


Quote:
Shadrak writes:

I mean in game...I hadn't seen the equipment as an option.



I think it's made-up, similar to how in 3026 they often make up some equipment as weighing X amount of tonnage, usually some fractional left over.
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