Karagin
04/19/16 08:53 PM
61.40.222.5
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So should vehicles be allowed use jump jets? TO clear up anyone from misunderstanding, by vehicles I mean tanks-tracked or wheeled, trucks, hover craft.
Not sure if anyone would consider putting jump jets on a ship or boat, but then again folks seem to think one shot weapons are great on mechs...
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
04/19/16 09:56 PM
66.74.61.223
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I honestly think they shouldn't.
Only because vehicles can not have 2 types of movement, ie hover and tracked.
As I understand it, jump jets is considered another type of movement.
Wiges with jets might be viewed as aircraft.
And just to note, wiges themselves might be considered 2 modes of transport, but that would be a different thread.
Also, one would have to limited the use of jets, as the game allows unlimited use of them.
It would be one thing to allow mechs an advantage of movement.
Also the limitation of terrains would have to be called into question. Since the game does limit terrain types for the normal mode, ie wheeled can not enter wood hexes, with jets, the becomes questionable. Jump in and jump out. No ground movement needed to the terrain stops being an issue.
Normally I am for letting vehicles have the same things as mech, but this would be a no.
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Karagin
04/20/16 07:43 AM
61.40.222.5
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So fuel would be the issue then from what you are saying for them to use the jets if they are no using fusion engines, so the end result would be that they can only be used on fusion powered units?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Drasnighta
04/20/16 11:12 AM
198.53.98.65
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Well, even with the Option Rules that the Star-League Era Kanga had, they were fairly restrictive...
Even for a Hover Vehicle, it was rolling for potential Motive System Damage on almost every Landing... Landing in restricted terrain destroyed your motive outright, as you would expect...
And it could not Change Facing at all during its Jump... It had to maintain the same Facing... So there was no quick jumping behind...
And I think any motive damage that reduced its speed had the potential to reduce its jump, too... But I'm not sure on that last point, I'm going from memory of MaxTech and previous, anyway...
CEO Heretic BattleMechs.
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ghostrider
04/20/16 12:29 PM
66.74.61.223
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Fuel might be an issue, but I was thinking more of the dual motive systems. It was mentioned in the wiki about the kanga-x. Not for the jump system, but using track with the hover.
It made me wonder if a jump system wouldn't be considered an secondary mode of movement.
Most jets use airflow, not fuel to propel the unit, except aircraft. They may have change that in the newer rule set, but that is my understanding of how they work.
Now Dras does bring up a valid point with the landings. With a hover, landing on a shrub or tree stump would probably take out the lift fan. As it has not cushion, like a mechs legs, it would be rough, though there are ways you can get around that.
I would think wheeled vehicles are less of a problem with tracked have far less issues.
Simply shorten the jump and use the last movement for a soft landing.
I do think the person driving the unit could avoid obsticals when landing. But it would still allow the unit into terrain it is not supposed to be in.
One more thing is how do you cover the rules for such?
The kanga did not suggest how to cover things like damage in flight, or even if drive would allow you to pilot with the jets working. Would it require its own skill set? But that is getting off the subject some.
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Drasnighta
04/20/16 12:50 PM
198.53.98.65
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In regards to Wheeled being better on landings, yes and no.
If you're a good pilot, and can plant the landing fairly "uniformly", then yes, Wheeled Suspension is probably okay.
However, if you're going ot have a hard landing, potentially "bottom out" on flat ground, or have a landing that's a little bit more than 2-point off center, then that's why the Star League chose the Kanga as its test-bed... The Hover "Bag" was a little bit of cushion (apparently).
BUT, that being said, the Vehicle Jump Jet rules system allowed all types of Motive. Just that the Motive System Damage on Landing chart was Reversed compared to standard damage...
(Regular damage had Hovers taking damage more than tracked, so for a jump, it was reversed - Tracked took more damage than Hover).
Remember - this is not "flight" as we see with WiGE or VTOL... Its the same as a BattleMech Jump. Start a Turn on the Ground, Jump, End that Same Turn on the Ground. There's no acceptance for Damage occuring in flight, as you're not taking any damage in flight, as you do it all during the movement phase...
There was also no turning and no facing changes... Just point a to b avoiding the terrain in the middle - for jumping over impassable rough terrain/forests/dragons teeth/minefields... That's it. An emergency terrain avoidance system.
Anything more than that is beyond the scope of the Given Rules - but of course, that makes it *ripe* for Custom Rules Sets on Dual Motive Systems, etc.
CEO Heretic BattleMechs.
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Akalabeth
04/20/16 04:19 PM
64.251.81.66
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If Batman can figure out jump jets for vehicles, I'm sure Battletech can.
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ghostrider
04/20/16 04:24 PM
66.74.61.223
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The wiki says dual motive systems are illegal. So I will assume that is correct.
Do they have rules like the 20 points damage in 'flight' requiring a control roll?
Or is things like that the 'ripe' for custom rules?
I can see hovers being able to use their lift systems to allow it to ride higher, allowing for a softer landing, now that I think about it. But using the forest landing example is why I thought wheeled would be better then hover, as you do not risk the lift coming down on a stump. It is possible to blow tires and dislodge tracks, but I would think they are a little less susceptible to the damage.
Though the jump aspect does ask if the jumping unit can fire or even turn a turret. Changing the aerodynamics in flight should cause issues. Or is that another custom rules idea?
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Cray
04/20/16 05:43 PM
72.189.109.30
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Quote:
Karagin writes:
So should vehicles be allowed use jump jets? TO clear up anyone from misunderstanding, by vehicles I mean tanks-tracked or wheeled, trucks, hover craft.
The Kanga set the canon precedent in TR:2750, and the rules were formalized in MaxTech (?) and Tactical Operations. The Clans have a jump tank in some TRO or another.
Now, take tabula rasa, should they have jump jets? Frankly, I don't find the idea any goofier than putting them on BattleMechs, and not as goofy as LAMs. (Once you have BT's jump jets and fusion rockets, you don't need wings to fly. No need to transform to fly a brick when you have so much thrust.) The rules performance of jump jets is at a useful medium to cross typical terrain obstructions in the game without actually turning into silly flying robots/tanks.
Jump jets are very handy for interplanetary/stellar attack forces since they allow the equipped unit to drop safely from any height - if you're pushing giant robots or tanks out of a spaceship that's at some altitude other than "landed," I'd prefer to have integral soft landing systems rather than depending on single-use packs.
So, I'm good with jump jets on tanks. They're no more cartoonish than giant robots on the battlefield.
YMMV.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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ghostrider
04/20/16 07:36 PM
66.74.61.223
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Landing jets are fine. Disposable ones that allow a soft landing should be there. Just like the ones to drop non jet mechs.
But for something that can be used constantly?
I guess seeing rules that deal with it might change my mind.
Heat build up would be a good place to start.
Would only mechs jets build heat, like ammunition weapons, or would you require sinks to bleed it like normal?
If you do need sinks, would you shut down jets as you lose sinks?
Would you use drive as the base for skill rolls for using them or require piloting or even a different skill?
Would they be allowed to fire while using them? Any penalties if you can?
Weight of the jets? Same as mechs?
Could you use improved jets?
Gyro needed to keep vehicle from flipping in flight?
Can they land in forbidden terrain?
Can you use it for a physical attack? (other questions here)
Will there be a limit on how much or often they can be used?
And a goofy question, but where would jets end and vtol start?
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Drasnighta
04/21/16 01:07 AM
198.53.98.65
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"And a goofy question, but where would jets end and vtol start?"
Same thing between a Spider Jumping and a LAM going into AirMech Mode...
Jump Jets are for *bursts*... Start on Ground, End on Ground.
If you're wanting more than that, you don't want Jump Jets. You want VTOL.
CEO Heretic BattleMechs.
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Karagin
04/21/16 05:33 AM
61.40.222.5
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That line sounds like a sales pitch or slogan...LOL
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Shadrak
04/24/16 10:07 PM
98.101.165.116
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I think LAMs are more absurd than vehicular jump jets...
Now, jumping 180 meters doesn't make a lot of sense in a 50 ton tank (does it make more sense in a 50 ton mech?), but I am pretty sure that if it hasn't been done already, sometime soon someone will mount something on a vehicle that will enable it to "jump" 20-60 meters.
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ghostrider
04/25/16 12:40 PM
66.74.61.223
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Jets do have some holes in their use.
As mentioned with vehicles, the landing would be an issue. Mechs atleast can flex their legs, but that still does not explain how come foot actuators don't blow out.
Now with a straight jump, it doesn't sound as 'magical' as someone doing stunt writing in the sky or even coming back the same general direction such as a u turn. If jets are that powerful, then they should go alot farther.
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happyguy49
04/29/16 02:14 AM
98.30.242.159
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With this,
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Armored_Motive_System
jump jet equipped tanks, especially HOVER tanks, become super viable. Yes, you have to roll on the vehicle motive system damage table every time you jump, but as I understand the rules, hovers get a minus 1 to the roll, so they could never get the "major damage; no movement for rest of game" result that you get with a natural 12. With the armored motive system taking TWO MORE off of that, for a total of -3, in the worst case (12 minus 3, to 9) you lose one cruising MP, not a major deal.
So definitely, use jump jets on tanks! Especially hover tanks.. just include the above mentioned armored motive system. 10% mass if clan tech, 15% if IS tech.
On say, a fifty ton hover tank, 5 tons clan, 7.5 tons spheroid. If you keep the engine to 10 tons max, (the smallest it is allowed to weigh on a 50 ton hover) with a regular fusion engine you are at 8/12. Four tons of jump jets gets you 8 jumping MP! Now you have a hovertank with the mobility of a Spider and the armor and weapons of a medium mech. Not bad.
Someone said that a jump-tank can't change facing, I don't recall this, is there a citation? Even if this is true, tanks can mount turrets, so you can still do a dastardly jump right behind an enemy mech and unleash hell on its thin back armor hoping for a nice couple of engine/gyro crits.
check out the variant "Hephaestus Jump Tank" of this Clan machine:
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hephaestus
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Karagin
04/29/16 10:00 AM
61.40.222.5
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Niffy thing about the to hit table and crits on vehicles, boom crew dead, or oh hey about that LIMITED internal structure per-facing, oh and did we mention the engine damage bit on the same chart? No, well we should, and while we are it, the same jumping tank is limited in how much heat it can play with etc...so same question here, is it worth having them or not?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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Akalabeth
04/29/16 06:12 PM
64.251.81.66
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Even if you break your motive system with a jump tank it doesn't matter so much because you can keep on jumping.
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Drasnighta
04/29/16 06:39 PM
198.53.98.65
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Quote:
Akalabeth writes:
Even if you break your motive system with a jump tank it doesn't matter so much because you can keep on jumping.
I did that, back in the Old days...
... of course, it only lasted so long... I mean... I couldn't *turn*, only Jump without changing facing...
so it was lots of forward, and BACK! BACK! GET AN ARC! GET AN ARC! CRAP, MY TURRET'S LOCKED!
CEO Heretic BattleMechs.
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Akalabeth
04/30/16 03:35 AM
108.180.183.124
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Why wouldn't you be able to turn? Neither Tac Ops nor Maximum Tech places restrictions on changing facing for vehicles. They act just as battlemech jump jets do.
The only jumping units that can't change facing are those using mechanical jump boosters so far as I know.
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Karagin
04/30/16 05:54 AM
61.40.222.5
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How is the jump tank going to turn? What allows it to turn while in the air? Are there turning vanes or airlons for to use? Is there some kind of contra-turning system? Alien Space Bat tech that allows the vehicle to do a 180 in mid air?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
04/30/16 11:50 AM
66.74.61.223
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Technically jump jets should have vector thrusters and if it is a hover tank, that should be standard.
Now weither or not you can control it once you are slightly turned is another story.
But then they don't really say that with mechs with all their jets in the torso. Legs can be moved, though novels suggest the armor on the arms is set up to help with aerodynamics, but if they mech is missing an arm, that fails.
But that is one of the reasons I think jump jets on vehicles isn't a good idea. Control once you are not moving straight forward without a bunch of control surfaces doesn't work. Wiges are the exception as they are designed to 'fly'.
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Akalabeth
04/30/16 04:07 PM
108.180.183.124
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The Kanga has jump engines on each side. Point one forward, point one backward, you rotate the vehicle.
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