ice engines

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ghostrider
02/04/15 02:09 AM
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I think that is why the developers went with an anti vehicle quirk in the clans.
They can mount alot of ammunition dependent weapons because they don't build heat on vehicles.
Energy weapons are a pain without a fusion engine because of the heat disapation problems.

But there is one major issue with vehicles and that is the higher chance to take it out from crits then in a mech. They can not kick, most can not jump up and down on a unit, and most have issues going thru woods and such. Mechs are more mobile and are harder to take out parts. Also they can operate while losing a section, something tanks can not do.

Now most industrial mechs use ICEs. That alone should have given some research into a lighter ICE. This issue has been here before clan tech.
Another point with mechs is you can't drop a tank from orbit. You need to land the dropship to debark. Tanks were supposed to be dirt cheap, but the limitations of the ICE weight is harsh and really unrealistic.
Yes this is a sci fi game, but our tanks today go faster with lighter engines, most changing over to turbines. Their isn't much of a reason why an ICE is double the weight of a fusion engine, besides to limit vehicles.

Now on the flip side, ammo dependent weapons are a liability on the battle fields when they run out of ammo. I know they can do some horrible damage, but when you miss, or worse, they bomb your ammo dump with fighters or fast mechs, how long will you stay in the battle? What you go is all you got.
Lose the engine and you tank is out. Fuel cell, explosion. Ammo explosion. crew can get stunned, turrets locked, lose movement. This can be done with a simple roll of 2, 3 or 4 on the dice on the hit locations. Turret is 11. EVERY time you hit, you can reduce the tanks abilities. Even a blockade would reduce your ammo. This is not including sabotague against you.
Granted most people do not play with these other problems.

And by with your these issues, why have a mech at all? Buy a company of tanks for almost what it would cost for an assault lance of mechs.
Akalabeth
02/04/15 02:58 AM
96.49.50.102

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Quote:

Another point with mechs is you can't drop a tank from orbit. You need to land the dropship to debark.




No you don't. You can drop tanks from dropships just fine in either atmosphere or space.

Quote:

Now most industrial mechs use ICEs. That alone should have given some research into a lighter ICE. This issue has been here before clan tech.




Hmmn, debatable. Thing is industrial mechs weren't really around until after the clans had been introduced, so not much reason to give them ICE engines when fusions are in ready supply.

ICE engines are also double the weight, but fusion engines weigh more on vehicles too so aren't that amazing.
ghostrider
02/04/15 09:58 AM
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Cost is why the ice is used in industrial mechs. They are cheaper, though heavier. They were not really noted much before the clan invasion, but there are some instances of them being used before then.
I think most were used in guerilla campaigns. They really started showing up in the dark ages timeline.

As for dropping vehicles, is that in the 'newer' rules? I don't remember seeing it before the clan invasions.
Akalabeth
02/04/15 02:21 PM
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The rules for dropping are in Strategic ops.
Vehicles can be given a parachute, or WiGEs and jump capable vehicles can drop unassisted. They can be encased in a re-entry pod in the same way that mechs can if dropped from orbit.
ghostrider
02/04/15 08:19 PM
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So the newer rules have changed even more things. Jump capable vehicles? The kanga was the only one I heard of, and they made it a failure.

I still think ICEs should not weigh so much, since our current REAL tanks don't use engines heavier then the tanks they are used in. Yet transferring then to the game makes them overweight.
Akalabeth
02/04/15 10:57 PM
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Don't think the Kanga was a failure, just hard to produce and replicate. Or perhaps it was a failure as a combat unit but not as a concept. Fluff may disagree.

There aren't really any new jump capable vehicles that I am aware of but the rules make allowances for their use and construction.
ghostrider
02/16/15 03:14 PM
76.89.120.217

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Thinking of towers, the weight of the energy weapons determines the rating of the engine used, wiether fusion or ice. Minimum of a 10 rated engine even if it has no weapons.

Then the ice needs poweramps to run energy weapons.
For some reason, this sounds wrong. Why would you need an large ice to run power amps, when the units does not need to run anything but the amps?
I understand the fusioin plants put out x power for their size. Everything involved in using the fusion plant runs off that power, which isn't really factored in moving units with energy weapons.
But the point of this being...
You should not need such a large ice to run the power amps.
The only thing the engine is doing is turning the amps.

This kind of ties in with vehicles as well. You should be able to run a vehicle off a smaller ice with using power amps to run the electric motors.

As for fuel cells, they sound like either batteries or a small electric generator. Both add to the argument of why ices are being discriminated against.

Yes, this is a mech game.
But saying something works because they want it to, then saying that doesn't apply to what they want to limit does create issues.
Akalabeth
02/16/15 04:22 PM
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Fuel Cells are fuel cells

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_cell
GiovanniBlasini
02/16/15 07:18 PM
172.56.33.150

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Quote:
ghostrider writes:

As for fuel cells, they sound like either batteries or a small electric generator. Both add to the argument of why ices are being discriminated against.



Seriously?
Member of the Pundit Caste
"Which side are we on? We're on the side of the demons, Chief. We're evil men in the gardens of paradise, sent by the forces of death to spread devastation and destruction wherever we go. I'm surprised you didn't know that." -- Col. Saul Tigh, BSG2003
ghostrider
02/16/15 10:34 PM
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So the link to fuel cells shows it is an electric generator that uses chemical reactions to produce electricity. That means they probably use the same electric motors to run the vehicles, like fusion engines do.
The 'free' heat sink that comes with it sounds like it is needed to keep the heat from the reaction down, which tells me it should not be allowed as a normal heatsink for weapon heat dissapation.
I would think using the heat sink for something else should violate the rule that forces a tank to have sinks for energy weapons, and if one is destroyed, you can not fire (a/the) weapon(s) it cools.

If you can use a fuel cell that weights so much less then an ice engine, why was it not used instead of the ice?

And if you use electric motors to drive tanks with all but ICE's, why not use them and have the engine power amps?
You should not need 35 ton ice to turn enough amps to move a large tank using the same motors as the other engines.

And yes, It is bs that ICE's have not been researched to lighten them with other materials. The ICE should have been replaced with something else if you can't use alloys to lighten it..
Akalabeth
02/17/15 03:31 PM
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:

And yes, It is bs that ICE's have not been researched to lighten them with other materials. The ICE should have been replaced with something else if you can't use alloys to lighten it..



The ICE was replaced by something else, it's called the Fusion Engine.


Edited by Akalabeth (02/17/15 06:42 PM)
ghostrider
10/14/15 04:07 AM
98.150.102.177

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Question came up on the differences in the definitions of an ICE verses turbine/jet engines.

If I know right the ice is completely different way of producing power then the other styles.
It also came up the weight differences for producing power. There is no distinguishing differences in the game, as it make all non fusion engines ICE before the newer updates.
This came up since the ICE weight issue.
What is the current definition of the ICE way of making power. Is it reciprocating motion from combustion or is it just burning fuel inside the engine itself?
ghostrider
03/24/16 01:23 AM
66.74.61.223

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A question came up that would be nice to know the answer to.

Why did they give 10 free heat sinks to fusion engines?
An ice needs sinks and amps in order to use energy weapons. Why would the fusion not be required to add sinks as well?

And I guess another question should be asked. I know vehicle ICE's need sinks to cover all heat build ups, but is it the same if a mech uses the ICE?
Also, does a mech with an ICE still need sinks to remove ballistic and missile heat?
ghostrider
05/17/16 03:22 AM
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Gotta love the inability to make lighter engines, but yet they can make endo composite internals for mechs without any issues. Might as well just dump vehicle construction rules all together and just force certain models to be used.
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