Land Crab

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Karagin
06/03/13 04:34 PM
50.36.82.183

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I see this one getting used as city defender vs close in fighter to some what. It has the LRM 5 for those units that just want hang back, more a baiting kind of thing, or lay a few minefields as needed. Or even work with other vehicles in use of the semi-guided LRMs etc...

The other weapons have the medium to short range punching that is normal of many fights in close to urban terrain.

Code:
           BattleTech Vehicle Technical Readout
VALIDATED

Type/Model: Land Crab
Tech: Inner Sphere / 3025
Config: Tracked Vehicle
Rules: Level 2, Standard design

Mass: 100 tons
Power Plant: 300 Vlar Fusion
Cruise Speed: 32.4 km/h
Maximum Speed: 54.0 km/h
Armor Type: Ferro-Fibrous
Armament:
2 Autocannon/20s
1 Large Laser
1 LRM 5
1 Medium Laser
Manufacturer: (Unknown)
Location: (Unknown)
Communications System: (Unknown)
Targeting & Tracking System: (Unknown)

--------------------------------------------------------
Type/Model: Land Crab
Mass: 100 tons

Equipment: Items Mass
Int. Struct.: 50 pts Standard 0 10.00
Engine: 300 Fusion 0 19.00
Shielding & Transmission Equipment: 0 9.50
Cruise MP: 3
Flank MP: 5
Heat Sinks: 11 Single 0 1.00
Cockpit & Controls: 0 5.00
Crew: 7 Members 0 .00
Turret Equipment: 0 3.00
Armor Factor: 215 pts Ferro-Fibrous 2 12.00

Internal Armor
Structure Value
Front: 10 50
Left / Right Sides: 10 45/45
Rear: 10 35
Turret: 10 40

Weapons and Equipment Loc Heat Ammo Items Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
2 Autocannon/20s Turret 0 15 3 31.00
1 Large Laser Front 8 1 5.00
1 LRM 5 Front 0 24 2 3.00
1 Medium Laser Front 3 1 1.00
1 C.A.S.E. Equipment Body 1 .50
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS: 11 10 100.00
Items & Tons Left: 15 .00

Calculated Factors:
Total Cost: 6,574,000 C-Bills
Battle Value 2: 1,354 (old BV = 872)
Cost per BV: 4,855.24
Weapon Value: 1,217 / 1,217 (Ratio = .90 / .90)
Damage Factors: SRDmg = 43; MRDmg = 12; LRDmg = 2
BattleForce2: MP: 3T, Armor/Structure: 0 / 9
Damage PB/M/L: 4/5/-, Overheat: 0
Class: GA; Point Value: 14

Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Cat228
07/04/16 10:14 PM
131.191.96.80

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Inferno LRM's to chase your prey out..
I like it, would be fun.
happyguy49
07/05/16 08:34 AM
98.30.242.159

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Needs more AC ammo. 7.5 shots per cannon isn't enough. Otherwise a good design, similar to the Lyran Demolisher II:

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Demolisher_II

Although that design does have better armor and cannons, one LB20x and one Ultra 20, yours doesn't leave the 10 free heat sinks wasted, and can still be combat effective when it runs out of ammo (which it will).
Karagin
07/05/16 05:42 PM
61.40.222.5

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How does it need more AC ammo? Would you be taking shots at long range with crazy modifers? Or are you confusing how one of the online non-canon computer games does things? I am saying that in the miniature/board game you would not be firing just to take a shot. Hence it has other weapons to use for the ranged shots, so again how does the Land Crab need more AC ammo?
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Akalabeth
07/05/16 07:23 PM
64.251.81.66

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Any design which forces the player to choose whether or not to fire in an average-length board game does not have sufficient ammo. That's fine as a design flaw, but the criticism should be expected.
Karagin
07/05/16 08:04 PM
61.40.222.5

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So if I am following your logic here is that unless a vehicle or mech etc has damn near unlimited ammo then there is something wrong with it. Just can't follow that kind of thinking, and makes me wonder really how some of you actually play the game, since even the standard mechs we all learned the game with have ammo limits, and you learn to use weapons and ranges and tactics, but I guess those who learned the game via the computer and platform games don't quite understand those things, since really all those are a tricked out first person shooters.

The vehicle has enough ammo to do it's job, it is not going to be alone, thus it's lancemates will be there covering it and a good player will be able to use the pros and cons of the vehicle to work in their favor.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Akalabeth
07/05/16 09:00 PM
64.251.81.66

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I don't know why you post designs if you're incapable of accepting even the smallest criticism. If you want to create a unit with less than optimal ammunition that's fine, but understand that people will point that out as being a shortcoming.

The majority of people would say the Hunchback IIC doesn't have enough ammo at only 2.5 turns of firing per gun.
The majority of people still would say the King Crab doesn't have enough with 5 shots per gun.
Take a unit like the Summoner A and many people would say it has enough Gauss shots (8) for shorter engagements, but still has a shortage.
Post a unit with an AC/10 and one ton of ammunition and you'd probably get a third of people saying it needs more shots.
Only with designs of 15 or more rounds per gun will most boardgame players say it has enough ammunition.
Megamek players I suspect would want 15-20 rounds a gun minimum. But that's a guess because I've only played it once.

A unit like the Clint IIC has 40 rounds of AC ammo but in that case I would say it's a liability not to a benefit.

On top of that, your unit is a vehicle. Which means it can fire all its weapons all the time. Unlike a unit like the Timberwolf Prime which has more weapons than itcan use so tis LRM-20 ammunition shortages are arguably mitigated.

Fact of the matter is, at 100 tons with heavy armour and limited secondary weapons most people would want more shots because they'd want to fire their big guns on 10, 11 or 12 to hits.
ghostrider
07/05/16 09:54 PM
66.74.61.223

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As I stated before, it seems alot of people use the alpha strike as the main attack from units.
I do agree the ammo might be light if this was a mech. The fact vehicles lose mobility and get killed easier then mechs when even just hit much less critted seems to have been missed.

Not sure if you would use a mech like a normal hunchback firing the ac 20 on 10+. If the lack of heat makes you do that, then I see why most consider vehicles more powerful then they should be.

Out side of pop up, fire, then hide, this is better then a demolisher only because of the extra weapons.
I would suggest dropping the ml, and upping the lrm pack. You can idf with them, and frankly, the cannons would be preferred over the ml unless you expect to be taking potshots.
If potshots is expected, the lrms would be a better choice as the range would be more favorable.
Or swap out to gauss rifles,
Granted the front mounting does limit both lrms and large laser.

And with the armor load it has, I doubt the tank would be able to fire even 10 shots with each cannon. 7.5 might be closer to reasonable then you think. A single volley from a warhawk prime would wipe this tank out unless you got unlucky to spread damage to turret and sides. And yes, that is assuming you hit with all 4 of the erppcs.

It is possible to take this out with a panther or Phoenix Hawk. Keep out of range to the ac's and pick away. The panther is less likely to survive several shots of the lrms/ll then the Phawk. For a city unit, it would have to stay close to an ammo carrier.
Karagin
07/06/16 08:14 AM
61.40.222.5

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Critizing the design with saying short on ammo so that is a major issue, is like saying it sucks cause it doesn't meet what I want it to meet.

Most players again are trying to play via the video game, this is NOT a first person shooter, this a TACTICAL board/miniature game that is more about thinking things through and a lot less about blasting everything in front of you every time.

Guess style of play will differ, hence WHY I asked about why he thought it wasn't enough, which would be something I am sure he could have answered and asking someone to explain why they don't like XYZ is not getting upset over things, it is trying to understand their issues, maybe if you Akalabeth would stop trying to find unicorns when hearing hoofbeats and realize it's just horses, we might not have a lot of issues.

So again I am not seeing how the limited ammo hurts the design, your counter points are all great and you made my point, if someone is going to waste shot on 10, 11, or 12 then that does show a lot about how they play the game, and I will still stick with my point that for those who came to the game via the computer/platform games or from Clicktech, are not playing the same way that those of us who learned it via the miniature/board game rules. And thus those players would not be wasting their ammo on the larger to hit rolls, and the secondary weapons do allow you to keep the enemy back or convince them to come in and get smacked with the AC20, and your points again while good, compare mechs to a vehicle, how does that actually prove anything?
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
07/06/16 08:42 AM
61.40.222.5

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Ghostrider, your ideas for the launcher upgrade is an interesting one, I could see that, or possible drop the one of the mediums to add in more ammo for the ACs since that seems to be the vote that the big guns must have more ammo or the design isn't a good one, again that would fall back on play style of the players and what they are use to, since some seem to like to play all guns blazing every turn thus needing the extra ammo and some play more calculated where they will weigh when is the best time to fire their main ammo weapons etc...I do the see the possibility of trying to lower the weight down in to the 90 or 95 ton range and see if I can gain some thing out of that.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
ghostrider
07/06/16 11:39 AM
66.74.61.223

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The mech/vehicle comparison was hoping to show the tactics of bracket firing does not change when the heat isn't built up.
I have done the alpha strike and tended to lose more often then it was worth it. Mechs being worse because of the heat build up. Playing a warhammer and refusing to fire the mls and other weapons instead of both ppcs is a good example.
Another example of mgs. I have yet to meet anyone that doesn't fire them any chance they get.

As it sounds like most people do not use the same units in a campaign for all the missions in the campaign, it seems they forget that units that are specialized in one field tend to do poorly in others, the urbanmech being a good example.
If the game didn't promote the full details of any unit detected or had some better way to dealing with ambush rules during a fight, it would be very possible to set up a point blank shot with the ac 20 carriers making them more useful. This is suggesting a unit park in a building and sitting for an enemy to come by during the fight, not setting up before the fight.

As a side note. Did you think of moving one of the cannons to the front, and other weapons into the turret? Could save some weight and still have the punch, though the second cannon would be limited to front arc, while allowing your potshots to be done with the energy weapons, as well as using the lrm a little more often. 24 shots is alot for close range combat. Granted, outside the city they would be more useful.


Edited by ghostrider (07/06/16 11:44 AM)
Akalabeth
07/06/16 02:09 PM
64.251.81.66

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Quote:
Karagin writes:

So again I am not seeing how the limited ammo hurts the design, your counter points are all great and you made my point, if someone is going to waste shot on 10, 11, or 12 then that does show a lot about how they play the game, and I will still stick with my point that for those who came to the game via the computer/platform games or from Clicktech, are not playing the same way that those of us who learned it via the miniature/board game rules. And thus those players would not be wasting their ammo on the larger to hit rolls, and the secondary weapons do allow you to keep the enemy back or convince them to come in and get smacked with the AC20, and your points again while good, compare mechs to a vehicle, how does that actually prove anything?



A person doesn't need to PROVE their opinion about your design. It's an opinion. You think this is up for debate, it's not. People have an opinion and either you respect it or you don't.

And guess what, I don't play Clickytech. I don't play Megamek. Was born and raised on 2nd edition and I'd take a shot on a 10+ if I had the ammo, and if I didn't have the ammo I'd say I needed more. Two AC/10s firing on a 10+ is a 30% chance to hit with at least one of those shots, if someone feels obligated to not fire because of ammo limitations then they'd be missing out on a lot of damage. Bear in mind that 30% is better odds than firing one shot on a 9+.
Karagin
07/06/16 04:45 PM
61.40.222.5

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So asking him to explain his point is not a good thing, okay noted.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
07/06/16 04:51 PM
61.40.222.5

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So based on the input, and given that resident experts have made their points, the base line here is to change things to give the Land Crab at least another 15 shots of ammo thus making it a viable design since as it stands it just doesn't have enough ammo to be worth it in a battle, now I am I reading things right or no?

So if that is the case, what do I drop? Toss the LRM since it's just a puny 5 rack and not needed? Drop a medium laser or go the route of lowering the tonnage down to say 90 or 95 tons? OR scrap the whole thing and start over?
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Akalabeth
07/06/16 05:53 PM
64.251.81.66

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Based on the description of the tank, I'd drop the Medium Laser for an additional ton of ammo for both the AC and LRM-5. That way you have at least 10 shots per gun which to me is sufficient and it also allows the LRM to use different munitions as desired. If the second ton of ammo for the LRM isn't appealing, one could instead add a SPL, MG + 1/2 ton or if you drop a half ton of armour, then an AMS + 1 ton ammo. Or a more radical idea would be to drop the LRM for 1 ton of AC and an ER LL in place of the regular LL.
CrayModerator
07/06/16 06:25 PM
72.189.109.30

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Quote:
Karagin writes:

How does it need more AC ammo? Would you be taking shots at long range with crazy modifers? Or are you confusing how one of the online non-canon computer games does things? I am saying that in the miniature/board game you would not be firing just to take a shot. Hence it has other weapons to use for the ranged shots, so again how does the Land Crab need more AC ammo?



My experience is that 10 shots per gun run dry about every other game; 7.5 shots per gun would increase that to running dry in about 2 out of 3 games. I actually do conserve guns with 10 or fewer shots for low target numbers, which turns big ammo-using guns into dead weight for the part of the game, just like running dry does. 15 or 20 shots per gun virtually eliminates the risk of running dry because, heck, I haven't had a game run more than 24 turns in 2 years.

I think Akalabeth said it well, "Any design which forces the player to choose whether or not to fire in an average-length board game does not have sufficient ammo."
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.


Edited by Cray (07/06/16 06:30 PM)
ghostrider
07/06/16 09:42 PM
66.74.61.223

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So does that mean the King Crab is a poorly designed mech? It has a whole 5 shots per cannon in it.
(I think it is a poor design, but this is trying to show units don't have what is considered ample ammo).
The monitor sea vessel is another dual 20 unit that has 15 shots total.

The idea of an average length game is a little vague. I have seen more then a few times an ac 20 unit not fire off a single shot. Everyone stayed back and picked it off. Especially during the 3025 era, where you didn't have all the fancy weight saving devices the later game has. And with the introduction of idf lrm fire as well as other things, this became even more common. And that didn't include artillery strikes on them.
This is also not counting crits on them.

Also might need to point out the era this tank is supposed to be made in. Which goes against both sides. It says 3025, so case, ferrous fiber, erll should not be listed, unless the era is a typo.

Once the weapons package is known, this will be among the first units any one fighting it will try and jump in on. But I guess that shows the styles of game play for some. And the era's that seem to use the most.
Akalabeth
07/06/16 09:46 PM
64.251.81.66

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The King Crab is a terrible mech. But I like it. Should post my King Crab IIC design.
happyguy49
07/06/16 10:39 PM
98.30.242.159

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Does it rock a HAG 40 and an Ultra AC/20? Cause that would be awesome
Akalabeth
07/07/16 12:35 AM
108.180.183.124

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Not to threadjack, but . . .

Quote:
happyguy49 writes:

Does it rock a HAG 40 and an Ultra AC/20? Cause that would be awesome



Nope. I designed this guy some 15 years ago before the HAG even existed.
Should maybe do an updated model with the new weapons that are around now.

http://www.sarna.net/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/181073/an/0/page/0#181073


A lot of people would probably say this design doesn't have a lot of ammo for many of its weapons either but I like it that way.
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