Gyrfalcon
07/21/16 06:46 PM
24.236.193.128
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I first bought the BattleTech Technical Readout: 3050 way back in the 1990's. While looking at the Clan Assault-class OmniMechs, I thought that someone had made a mistake. It was obvious to me that the Masakari (aka Warhawk) needed many more heat sinks to cool those four ERPPCs. I tried removing the LRM-10 and Targeting Computer but still could not install the minimum 30 double heat sinks I thought it should have.
The 'Mech needed to be bigger!
When I turned the page and looked at the Gladiator (aka Executioner), again I wondered what the designers were thinking. Sure, it was cool to make a 95-ton move that fast and be able to jump, but the weight of those 2-ton jump jets was ridiculous. An 85-ton 'Mech can use 1-ton jump jets and still carry about the same amount.
This 'Mech needed to be smaller!
Then an idea hit me, had someone accidentally switched the weight-class specifications on the two designs? I grabbed a pencil and paper (this was before 'Mech generating computer programs) and worked-up both designs at the others weight-class. Sure enough, both designs were more efficient at the others weight-class!
Here are the designs I came up with, and recently updated fluff. I hope you like them. 
BattleMech Technical Readout
Type/Model: Executioner Mk II (base)
Tech: Clan / 3062
Config: Biped OmniMech
Rules: Level 2, Standard design
Mass: 85 tons
Chassis: Clan Sereis Assault SXC Endo Steel
Power Plant: 340 General Systems XL Fusion
Walking Speed: 43.2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64.8 [86.4] km/h
Jump Jets: 4 Clan Series Type 3 Assualt Standard Jump Jets
Jump Capacity: 120 meters
Armor Type: Compound 12A1 Standard
Armament: 34 tons of pod space available
Manufacturer: Abysmal Manufacturing Complex
Location: Huntress
Communications System: Series 10 CBS MultiFreq
Targeting & Tracking System: HawkEye J360
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
==Overview:==
Fast and powerful, the Executioner (Gladiator) is an assault OmniMech most
often associated with Clan Ghost Bear, though the original design came from
Clan Burrock. When the Burrocks were Absorbed by Clan Star Adder in 3059, the
Star Adders came into possession of the design schematics for the Executioner.
Being a practical people and not wanting to waste this opportunity, the Star
Adder Scientists and Techs were tasked with assessing weather or not it would
be practical to produce this design for Clan Star Adder. After analyzing the
schematics the Star Adder Scientists and Techs found several inefficiencies in
the design. The Techs recommended against building the Executioner, but the
Scientists offered a new, smaller, more efficient design they called the
Executioner Mk II. The Clan leaders were impressed with the design and
ordered that a Warhawk production line be modified to produce the new design.
==Capabilities:==
Replacing the Ferro-Fiberous armor with standard armor and using an
Endo-Steel chassis was just the first step in creating a more efficient design.
Compared to the 95-ton Executioner's 26.5 tons of pod space, the 85-ton Mk II
has 34 tons of pod space, although some of that comes from three less heat
sinks.
Using a General Systems 340 XL Engine, the Executioner Mk II has a top
speed of 64.8 km/h. A MASC system enhances the top speed to 86.4 km/h (albeit
only in short bursts), and four permanently mounted jump jets give the 'Mech
the ability to propel itself 120 meters into the air. The Executioner Mk II
also carries sixteen tons of standard armor, which is roughly equal to the
protection on the original Executioner. Only the thirteen double heat sinks
that are in the engine are fixed equipment, this allows for maximum
flexibility.
==Variants:==
All weapon configurations have been left up to the personal preferences of the individual MechWarriors.
--------------------------------------------------------
Type/Model: Executioner Mk II (base)
Mass: 85 tons
Equipment: Crits Mass
Int. Struct.: 130 pts Endo Steel 7 4.50
(Endo Steel Loc: 1 HD, 1 LA, 1 RA, 2 RT, 2 CT)
Engine: 340 XL Fusion 10 13.50
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6 [8]
Jumping MP: 4
Heat Sinks: 13 Double [26] 0 3.00
Gyro: 4 4.00
Cockpit, Life Supt., Sensors: 5 3.00
MASC: 3 3.00
Actuators: L: Sh+UA+LA+H R: Sh+UA+LA+H 16 .00
Armor Factor: 256 pts Standard 0 16.00
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head: 3 9
Center Torso: 27 45
Center Torso (Rear): 8
L/R Side Torso: 18 30/30
L/R Side Torso (Rear): 6/6
L/R Arm: 14 28/28
L/R Leg: 18 33/33
Weapons and Equipment Loc Heat Ammo Crits Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
4 Standard Jump Jets: 4 4.00
(Jump Jet Loc: 2 LL, 2 RL)
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS: 0 49 51.00
Crits & Tons Left: 29 34.00
Calculated Factors:
Total Cost: 26,041,680 C-Bills
Battle Value 2: 1,216 (old BV = 966)
Cost per BV2: 21,415.86
Weapon Value: 0 / 0 (Ratio = .00 / .00)
Damage Factors: SRDmg = 2; MRDmg = 0; LRDmg = 0
BattleForce2: MP: 4J, Armor/Structure: 6/5
Damage PB/M/L: 2/-/-, Overheat: 0
Class: MA; Point Value: 12
Specials: omni
==========================================================================
BattleMech Technical Readout
Type/Model: Warhawk Mk II (base)
Tech: Clan / 3060
Config: Biped OmniMech
Rules: Level 2, Standard design
Mass: 95 tons
Chassis: Bergan Version 12.6 Endo Steel
Power Plant: 380 Heavy Force XL Fusion
Walking Speed: 43.2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64.8 km/h
Jump Jets: None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor Type: Compound 12A2 Standard
Armament: 40 tons of pod space available
Manufacturer: Bergan Industries and Alshain BattleWorx
Location: Alshain
Communications System: Dash-2 Optima
Targeting & Tracking System: Hakkon-Morris LAP
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
==Overview:==
The original Warhawk was introduced by Clan Smoke Jaguar in 2999 in
preparation for the anticipated return to the Inner Sphere. Although it
appeared in the Toumans of a number of other Clans, such as the Ghost Bears
and Jade Falcons, the Jaguars jealously guarded their production. All
examples of the highly prized 'Mech in other Clans were battlefield salvage,
or won in Trials of Possession. Production lines and design specs finally
spread to the Fire Mandrills, Diamond Sharks and Goliath Scorpions upon the
Smoke Jaguars Annihilation in 3060. Produced exclusively on the Clan
Homeworlds, the design was one of many lost to Inner Sphere Clans after
contact to the Clan Homeworlds ceased during the Jihad.
With the loss of any potential replacements, Clan Ghost Bear warriors
demanded that their Scientists and Techs find a way to build their own
Warhawks. Despite it's name, the General Systems 340 XL engine was built
exclusively for the Warhawk. Not wanting to waste resources on building a new
facility to produce the unique engine, the Scientists instead suggested
modifying one of their Executioner production lines to build an upgraded
version of the Warhawk.
No one facility in the Ghost Bear Dominion could create the new 'Mech, so
Alshain BattleWorx shipped the engine and other systems that they produced to
the Bergan Industries (also on Alshain) factory for integration with the
chassis and armor they produced.
==Capabilities:==
The Warhawk Mk II has 40 tons of pod space for weapons and equipment. For
maximum versatility the only fixed heat sinks are the fifteen in the engine,
all others are in removable pods. Using the massive Heavy Force 380 XL Engine,
the Warhawk Mk II has a top speed of 64.8 km/h. It incorporates an Endo-Steel
chassis to save weight and 17.5 tons of standard armor to protect itself from enemy fire.
==Battle History:==
An unfortunate accident during a Trial of Possession lead to one of the
first Warhawk Mk IIs to be deployed to be lost to Clan Hell's Horses. A
collaboration between Clan Hell's Horses and the Exiled Wolves on Arc-Royal
resulted in the Hellstar. Introduced in 3079, the Hellstar is a standard
BattleMech that copies the Warhawk Mk II's primary configuration very closely.
The difference is that the Hellstar sacrifices one double heat sink for one
more ton of armor.
==Variants:==
All weapon configurations have been left up to the personal preferences of the individual MechWarriors.
==Deployment==
The first Warhawk Mk IIs are being sent to units that have lost original Warhawks.
--------------------------------------------------------
Type/Model: Warhawk Mk II (base)
Mass: 95 tons
Equipment: Crits Mass
Int. Struct.: 145 pts Endo Steel 7 5.00
(Endo Steel Loc: 1 HD, 4 LT, 2 RT)
Engine: 380 XL Fusion 10 20.50
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks: 15 Double [30] 0 5.00
Gyro: 4 4.00
Cockpit, Life Supt., Sensors: 5 3.00
Actuators: L: Sh+UA R: Sh+UA 12 .00
Armor Factor: 280 pts Standard 0 17.50
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head: 3 9
Center Torso: 30 47
Center Torso (Rear): 10
L/R Side Torso: 20 32/32
L/R Side Torso (Rear): 8/8
L/R Arm: 16 32/32
L/R Leg: 20 35/35
Weapons and Equipment Loc Heat Ammo Crits Mass
--------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------
TOTALS: 0 38 55.00
Crits & Tons Left: 40 40.00
Calculated Factors:
Total Cost: 29,150,470 C-Bills
Battle Value 2: 1,199 (old BV = 982)
Cost per BV2: 24,312.32
Weapon Value: 0 / 0 (Ratio = .00 / .00)
Damage Factors: SRDmg = 1; MRDmg = 0; LRDmg = 0
BattleForce2: MP: 4, Armor/Structure: 7/5
Damage PB/M/L: 2/-/-, Overheat: 0
Class: MA; Point Value: 12
Specials: omni
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ghostrider
07/21/16 09:05 PM
66.74.61.223
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The tros are full of oddly designed units. And more often then not, they seem to be set up to overheat when firing weapons.
Now I do have to ask this. Did you look at the other variants before thinking this? The warhawk prime is especially a glow in the dark unit when using all 4 erppcs. But the other variants are much better for heat. The lpl version with tcs is especially dangerous. Fire without moving and you are heat neutral. And the prime is a volley fire unit. Not something a lot of players like to deal with.
The executioner isn't as bad as the original banshee with the larger engine, but would have done better with a 3/5 profile and put the weight to extra sinks/larger weapons. But it would not have showcased the new equipment the developers came out with.
But as been stated a few times on the forums, canon designs are not normally set for min/max alpha strikes.
Though I do agree the warhawk would have been better with more sinks, but not much could be done about it without the extra weight, or cutting back on the prime configuration.
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Shadrak
07/21/16 10:46 PM
98.101.165.111
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I think his point wasn't that the warhawk and executioner were poorly designed in their primary configurations, but that, based on the construction rules, you would get a more effective "fast assault unit" at 85 tons than 95 tons and a better "support assault unit" at 95 tons.
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Rotwang
07/31/16 09:16 AM
94.226.248.136
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IIRC they originally designed "MKI" versions that were far more efficient than what ultimately appeared in the TRO. Many were tweaked after it became clear they were vastly more effective compared to the 2750 and 3050 IS designs.
http://www.heavymetalpro.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5138
And here is a copy and paste of the MKI's I have in Megamek.
Executioner Mk1 Prime
Clan TW
95 tons
BV: 3,793
Cost: 36,484,906 C-bills
Movement: 4/6(8)/4
Engine: 380 XL
Double Heat Sinks: 15 [30]
Gyro: Standard Gyro
Internal: 145 (Endo-Steel)
Armor: 278/293 (Ferro-Fibrous)
Weapons
Loc
Heat
ER PPC
RA
15
ER PPC
RA
15
Gauss Rifle
LA
1
Ammo
Loc
Shots
Gauss Ammo
LT
8
Gauss Ammo
LT
8
Equipment
Loc
MASC
RT
Targeting Computer
RT
Carrying Capacity:
One battle armor squad
Capabilities:
null
Warhawk Mk1 Prime
Clan TW
85 tons
BV: 2,852
Cost: 25,921,198 C-bills
Movement: 4/6
Engine: 340 XL
Double Heat Sinks: 26 [52]
Gyro: Standard Gyro
Internal: 130 (Endo-Steel)
Armor: 256/263
Weapons
Loc
Heat
ER Large Laser
RA
12
ER Large Laser
RA
12
ER Large Laser
LA
12
ER Large Laser
LA
12
Medium Pulse Laser
RT
4
Streak SRM 6
LT
4
LRM 5
HD
2
Ammo
Loc
Shots
LRM 5 Ammo
LT
24
Streak SRM 6 Ammo
LT
15
Equipment
Loc
Targeting Computer
RT
Carrying Capacity:
One battle armor squad
Capabilities:
null
Edited by Rotwang (07/31/16 09:17 AM)
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KamikazeJohnson
08/01/16 12:27 PM
207.161.146.219
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I know it must have seemed exciting to the game designers to design an "effective" take on the old Banshee concept, but in-universe, the Executioner makes no sense...it's a horribly wasteful design, and it's best use flies in the face of Clan battle philosophy.
When you get to the point where increasing chassis size results in LESS available tonnage (i.e. moving 4/6 at 90+ tons), there are only 2 justifications for going bigger: Armour limits and Physical attacks. For the first, the Executioner carries less than max armour, and for the second, Clan 'Mechwarriors purportedly "abhor" physical combat. So all you gain by using 95 tons instead or 85 tons is a slight durability increase due to more internal structure.
The whole design seems very un-Clannish...in actuality, it looks much more...Lyran.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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ghostrider
08/02/16 12:12 AM
66.74.61.223
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That is a good point. Clan warriors would NOT have been dealing with certain tech as it would be an affront to their warrior egos. Physical attacks being one they tried to avoid as much as possible.
The need for speed in such a large unit is beyond wasteful. Firepower would have been the preferred way to go with the Executioner. Make it an actual executioner, not some under gunned unit that can barely keep up with heavies.
95 ton units were not really meant for high speeds, and given the clan creed when it came out, would have been deemed wasteful.
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Rotwang
08/02/16 09:33 AM
94.226.248.136
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The Clans are based on the Mongols, so when it came to design mechs, they made them "faster" at all costs. That's why you have designs like the Executioner and the Man O War (400-engine). When the Executioner first appeared very few assault mechs could jump, the Victor being the only one in common service in the Inner Sphere at the time. You had the Dragoons with the Shogun and the 2750 era designs like the Crockett and Highlander.
From that point of view the Executioner is a serious munchkin, with the speed and mobility cranked up to the max and packs the biggest gun in the arsenal. At least that's what it was supposed to be. The MK I makes a bit more sense than what finally appeared in the 3050TRO. Gauss Rifle and a pair of ER PPC's tied to a targeting computer, that's some hefty firepower.
There is another blatant example of how they felt Clans should go, the Linebacker would replace the superlative Mad Cat because it was "too slow" Never mind that the Linebacker didn't come up to its knee it terms of armour and payload.
At some point people figured that speed wasn't the magical advantage it was believed to be, the best way to beat a Clan mech with another mech was one 10-20 tons heavier with a lot more armour and lots of big guns. That and combined arms with tanks, air and powered armour.
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ghostrider
08/02/16 11:18 AM
66.74.61.223
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There is the question of the Daishi. Why didn't they use the largest engine with that one?
And from some of the fluff about the clans, jets were frowned upon as a waste of resources better used for weapons, sinks and armor.
If it were my choice between a linebacker and a mad cat, I would take the mad cat. Though with all the omnis, I liked certain ones over others.
It does surprise me the innersphere did not do what they could to get the rifleman IIc going. With the clan lpls with tcs was just a nasty mech. The lack of range might hurt a little, but once in range, it was hard to avoid being hit.
Another oddity for clan mechs being faster is the puma. The double erppcs on the prime is a very nasty weapons package for the weight, but with a 6 move seems slow. That adder is the other light mech with 6 move. Granted 16 tons of weapons for a 30 ton mech is still nothing to sneeze at.
Honestly feel the designers thru in the masc on the fire moth just to keep the masc line going. But then there isn't much you can do with a 20 ton mech like lots of armor.
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Rotwang
08/02/16 12:27 PM
94.226.248.136
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The Linebacker is a good mech in its own, but throw away the Mad Cat for the sake of more speed doesn't make sense.
A Daishi with an XL engine would have been too munchkin, though the MKI version still moves 3/5. It seems that in this case they preferred more guns vs speed. We did see 4/6 100-tonners later on, like the Scylla and the Kodiak.
Part of the early write-up of the Clans was that they were supposed to be weird and different, higher speed was one such feature, that and wondrously weird weapon combo's, like a pair of LB-5X and a pair of SRM6 as the main armament on a fast assault mech or a trio of cannons or launchers. Many configs really feel like they were trying to create at least 4-5 configs per mech, but ran out of ideas and tossed some weapons together at random, and then making claims that it made sense in Clan Warfare ... For some reason they breed the best pilots, build the best mechs at the expense of every other arm, but then fall short of putting in a decent weapon configuration that would make sense. Game balance is the most likely suspect in this case.
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ghostrider
08/02/16 11:54 PM
66.74.61.223
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Most the deal with long term battles would think removing a cannon or missile launcher to add sinks. ammo, armor and such would be the best thing to do. My initial thoughts of the clans were they were willing to shut down on an alpha in order to destroy the enemy with one volley. Looks more impressive then having a slugging match that lasts for hours in combat.
As the fluff of it goes, they suggest short battles is preferred over the longer ones.
I agree most configurations has alot of issues with it, especially when long range combat was supposed to be favored. The small laser sounds more like an afterthought, as being that close should be against their concepts. Being that close should mean physical combat will be coming.
They were also supposed to be allowed to rearm and armor during breaks in the fighting. So it made sense to have light ammo stores in the units and less energy weapons. Trials of refusal that they talk about, like the jade phoenix books have suggested as such.
But I agree. For a society of master warriors, and the hatred of waste, they did not quite portrait that in the mech designs they have.
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KamikazeJohnson
08/03/16 01:13 AM
207.161.146.219
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Quote:
KamikazeJohnson writes:
I know it must have seemed exciting to the game designers to design an "effective" take on the old Banshee concept, but in-universe, the Executioner makes no sense...it's a horribly wasteful design, and it's best use flies in the face of Clan battle philosophy.
When you get to the point where increasing chassis size results in LESS available tonnage (i.e. moving 4/6 at 90+ tons), there are only 2 justifications for going bigger: Armour limits and Physical attacks. For the first, the Executioner carries less than max armour, and for the second, Clan 'Mechwarriors purportedly "abhor" physical combat. So all you gain by using 95 tons instead or 85 tons is a slight durability increase due to more internal structure.
The whole design seems very un-Clannish...in actuality, it looks much more...Lyran.
I just re-checked the numbers and found, to my surprise, that 95 tons actually allows the most available tonnage at 4/6 movement. Once you account for the higher armour limit, you can use the exact same weapon set at 90 or 95 tons, slightly less at 85. Although the Executioner's Jump Jets are a killer.
So back to my original statements; without Jump capability, you do benefit from increasing size up to 95 tons at 4/6 movement, but the benefit is so small I would say it would not justify the increased resource cost. And if you don't intend to max the armour or do Physical attacks, just go smaller. With the Jump Jets, keeping it to 85 tons or less is much more efficient.
Note: didn't Jump Jets increase to 2 tons each at 80+ tons, once upon a time? Or was it always at 90 tons? Memory is failing me...
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
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Reiter
08/06/16 08:18 AM
45.48.53.140
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Through this out, the clans could of made a lot of second line omni mechs by just reducing the weight and slowing the mechs down to prevent waste, without the fluff of "rebuilding and scavenging IS mechs" bit where they mostly destroyed them. All the original Omni mech heavies reduced by 15 tons, slowed down to 4/6/4 (forgot if I used XL engines) makes them mediums class and slightly tweaking their weapon's loud outs you could get about 75% effectiveness of the Vulture/Loki/Thor/Madcat (reduce LRM down a size or go ER Large instead of an ER PPC) for second line troops or garrison forces.
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ghostrider
08/06/16 11:25 AM
66.74.61.223
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Waste has many faces.
A factory that was made for a single fusion engine, for only one line of units and no others, would be an example of a waste.
You would probably keep that factory open and use the unit even if it wasn't worth too much. Just because of the time, effort, and funds put into the factory itself.
Another would be a second factory built for items that aren't really in demand. Example. A factory running at half capacity making A/B/M pods. It would be unwise to make a second one that can produce more then the half capacity factory. The thought of making sure you could still make them if the first one was destroyed is being thought in this one. There is no need for a major complex, as storage in more then a few ammo dumps would be maxed out.
I do disagree with the weight reduction and slowing down the mechs. Honestly, they have the omnis already designed and it is far easier to produce those out of their factories then making a whole new line.
Now using normal fusion engines would definitely help here, which would reduce weapons packages, but I believe the lack of transports to move the mechs was the reason for salvage. If the novel was correct, the travel from clanspace to the is took about a year.
The need for so much ammunition in the beginning and the lack of respect for the IS was their downfall. They would have had more ships and even clans involved if they had not been so arrogant. Granted waste for clans is not money, but resources. Which really makes you wonder, as they have combat trials for almost everything. Position, possession, refusal, and grievance being the main ones I can think of right now. The first to make sense, but allowing units to be destroyed for the second is wasteful. Hand to hand would be acceptable in those cases.
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Requiemking
12/21/16 01:47 PM
70.77.94.142
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Sorry about this Necro, but I do want to make a point here. As far as I'm aware, the Executioner is pretty much designed to be a duelling mech, much like the Incubus and the Hunchie IIC. In the Zellbrigen-based combat of Clan trials and even mainline combat, the Executioner is a nasty customer. In more IS-style combat, it's not that great, though it is surprising.
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