General Weapons topic

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ghostrider
07/04/16 02:15 AM
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The heavy lasers, micro lasers and light gauss are in the bmr, but not heavy gauss, variable pulse lasers, atms snub nose ppc, or capacitors and so on.

Even the ecm system listed just says suite. And no racs in the one I got.
It is possible they added them into the newer printings. Wouldn't be the first time they changed the books.
Akalabeth
07/04/16 04:10 PM
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Yeah looking at my pdf of the original BMR, it only has the weapons from the first few Field Manuals. The rest were likely added to the revised edition.

Both FASA and now Catalyst like to shove new technology into the Field Manuals. I much prefer the original TRO 2750 or 3050 approach where the new technology for the new units was alongside those machines in the actual TRO. I have a bunch of Field Manuals, mostly bought after the fact, but even now I find them of extremely limited value and the tech is thrown in there simply to make the consumer buy more products.

The recent 3145 set of books was a prime example. Where first, they released about 7 PDF-only TROs, on for each of the five houses, the clans and the Republic. Then on top of that they released a print-only PDF which had about half the units from each of the PDFs but not all. Then they got Era Report 3145 and Field Manual 3145, the latter of which has all of the rules for the new units in the various TROs. The Era Report, not sure if it had rules but it does have some information on the new unit as well. So all told you're potentially buying 7 PDFs, and 3 books to get everything. This isn't of course even counting the Record Sheets, which if you don't use some free software you'll need to print off the units.

Which when you actually think about it, is beyond absurd. Compare it to a boardgame, like say Munchkin or Carcassone where if you buy an expansion, that expansion has everything you need to add that to the game. Or another game like Flames of War, you got the main rulebook, then buy say a book on North Africa campaign and it has the unit formations, the stats for the new units, any special rules to use those units, etcetera. These expansions don't have inter-dependencies, where at minimum for the 3145 example you'd need to buy three books to use it, that being Tactical Operations, Field Manual 3145 and the TRO itself. Actually technically you need 4 books. If you assume the new player has the boxed game to start with, then they need to buy Total Warfare as well.

I would argue that, this sort of thing makes the game less accessible to newer players. The current timeline is set in the dark ages, but in order for a new player to get into the current timeline they have to invest so much time and money to acquaint themselves with how to play.

Alpha Strike I think was a good move to make the game more accessible, though at the same time, the last time I played the game someone showed me the errata for the thing and it was as long as the rulebook.
ghostrider
07/04/16 06:20 PM
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That was one thing I liked about the adventure packs. They did have the info needed to run any new units they had in them.

And I can see the spreading out the information thru several books as something that could put off alot of new players. The boxed set should have everything you need to play in it, and not have to buy several other books.

The rule books should have it all, with the tro's having pertinent information when something new comes out. The field manuals are nice to highlight new tech for that house. Giving a back ground to what it is, and how it came about, like the triple strength myomers. But having to get all three just to use the new tech is pushing the money grab.
Akalabeth
07/04/16 07:32 PM
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Field Manuals are only nice if you care about the formations. If you don't, you're buying a 40-50 dollar, 150-200 page book for 10 pages worth of content.
happyguy49
07/05/16 08:08 AM
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Well, I understand putting a grab bag of stuff in every new book, including a couple new designs and maybe even 1-2 new tech items. Cause THAT'S HOW THEY GET YA! It sells books, at least to completionists who have to know all the rules to all the equipment.

I must confess I bought Field Manual 3145 really only to get the rules for Tripods (superheavy and regular) and Colossal mechs. (radical heat sink was a nice plus) Not that the rest of the content wasn't interesting in its own right.

This isn't necessarily bad, everything eventually makes it to the wiki, and it doesn't turn off new players who are rational enough to realize that a NEW player doesn't need to know everything. (in this case optional rules for rare/experimental equipment/units) All you need to get started is one product, Total Warfare.
ghostrider
07/05/16 11:52 AM
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Without someone telling you what you need, a group just starting to play buys a boxed set.
Now that in itself will allow them to play the game, until they read anything that has new equipment in it.
Not knowing the rule books in the newest editions of the boxed set, I am making an assumption that they do NOT include the new rules. And going on ebay and such, you are likely to get the original rules.

Now without knowing anything about the game or the time line, and people don't always get online to research what books to get, you grab something like the 3025/3026 books. And find they don't contain the new stuff. After a while, it gets frustrating.
Even the sheer amount of products could put people off. Granted, you don't need the old rule books, but if you don't get the newest one first, you tend to get annoyed buying them all.

Not sure if the company recalled the old unsold rule books, but doubt it. And that is just what is in hobby stores. Hell, they still sell them online for the collectionist people, though not sure if current makers are. I find the fluff interesting in most of the house books I have, but as some have said, it is not as useful to someone wanting all the new stuff, as you have to buy so many to get what you want or need.

And I know that's how they get you. But without something new, they end up losing even more buyers as the perfectly good thought of 'why buy this, since it's the same old crap as before' sets in.

And just to be picky, you still need the boards and symbols for the units.
But I understand the total warfare being everything you need besides the pieces.
Akalabeth
07/05/16 02:46 PM
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The boxed set has suggestions for what new players buy next. They don't need to do any research initially.
CrayModerator
07/05/16 05:35 PM
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:

Are those house books the originals or revised/newer releases? I don't remember seeing racs in either one.
House Steiner #1621 printed 1987
House Davion #1623 printed 1988



I said Handbook, not Sourcebook. I was off in the year of publication; they were 2004-2007 products, I misremembered which convention I picked up the Steiner Handbook at.
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Handbook:_House_Steiner
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Handbook:_House_Davion

Quote:
I would think the plasma cannon should drop with range, as the cooling of the materials would account for that, especially in space, as it is not supposed to have a great muzzle velocity. Which bring to question the 18 range on it.



Plasma cannons have high muzzle velocities. It's quite easy to accelerate plasma, with demonstrated, real world hardware achieving 200,000m/s. As for cooling, that's why plasma weapons (cannons and rifles) use a massive slug of ammo: to have enough mass to reach their target. Weapons like flamers that attempt to use the air or a bit of fusion engine plasma simply don't have the raw mass of plasma to reach a long distance.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MARAUDER
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_railgun
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
ghostrider
07/05/16 09:24 PM
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The Plasma Cannon does not have a significant kinetic energy component, that is to say the projectile is not launched with enough force to cause secondary impact damage.

So that comes from the wikii here on sarna.

And that idea of 200,000 m/s makes you have to ask how is it that it only goes to 18 hexes?
I guess it is just another example of the game not following reality again. And the game information on sarna's wiki seems to be in direct opposition of this. So another mark for game not dealing in reality.

Now handbook and source book are unknown if you are not aware of multiple books that are out. It is why I asked it if was the same books I had or something that came out afterwards. It appears there is 3 versions of the house books out now. I knew of the field manuals, but not the handbooks.


Edited by ghostrider (07/05/16 09:31 PM)
ghostrider
08/02/16 12:20 AM
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The question about wasteful ideas and tech came up in another thread, and leads me to ask about clan philosophy for the invasion.

Why would some tech items like ecm be wide spread in clan forces, as it would be almost against a warriors creed to 'hide' from the enemy. I thought they had the notion to be bold and open about their skills, and only took to diversionary tactics as a last resort. The test of skills was the name of the game.
To a smaller extent this might also include the targeting computer as well. Why would the egotistical warriors want someone claiming they lacked the skills to fight by using something like that?
Maybe the cowardly freebirths would use such equipment, but not a trueborn. You might as well just opened fire while the people were entering the battle ground.

While thinking about it even the proliferation of the streak systems would call into question their abilities to fire weapons accurately.
Granted it sounded great when they came out, but with their own presentation of the clans, isn't this a bit backwards to that?
KamikazeJohnson
08/02/16 12:39 PM
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:

The question about wasteful ideas and tech came up in another thread, and leads me to ask about clan philosophy for the invasion.

Why would some tech items like ecm be wide spread in clan forces, as it would be almost against a warriors creed to 'hide' from the enemy. I thought they had the notion to be bold and open about their skills, and only took to diversionary tactics as a last resort. The test of skills was the name of the game.
To a smaller extent this might also include the targeting computer as well. Why would the egotistical warriors want someone claiming they lacked the skills to fight by using something like that?
Maybe the cowardly freebirths would use such equipment, but not a trueborn. You might as well just opened fire while the people were entering the battle ground.

While thinking about it even the proliferation of the streak systems would call into question their abilities to fire weapons accurately.
Granted it sounded great when they came out, but with their own presentation of the clans, isn't this a bit backwards to that?



OTOH, an elite warrior deserves weapons worthy of his skill. Fine line in regards to where that becomes "cheating".
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
ghostrider
08/02/16 11:45 PM
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I agree that weapons being worthy of the warriors skill being accepted. But the streak system for instance has very little to do with hitting with all missiles, just have to achieve a lock on. I know the game doesn't get into skill being considered as part of how many missiles hit to keep it simple, but it should.

Some weapons require skill in aiming to keep the weapon on target to do the damage. I honestly believe that is why they stayed at range as much as possible. Hitting the target at long range requires more skill then short. The better the skill, the more likely of making the shot.

Those that assist in achieving a hit, might be called cowardly by those that win without them. I don't deny some would not use them, as the end results is a little more effective then how it is achieved, but then ambushes and more forces being used by the attacker in a batchall would be more likely then it was.

In a few thoughts, even a pulse laser would be considered assistance to a warriors aim, and might be shunned.
A clan warrior hates losing, but if it to a superior skilled opponent isn't as bad as one that might be considered lucky. Granted that might be because the fluff and novels portrayed it as such. Phelan Wards bloodright trials had that undertone to it.
ghostrider
08/23/16 08:10 PM
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Major radical thought I had with responding to the d8 thread.

A laser system that you can dial up the damage, but lose effective range,
Based on the large laser for example. Does 8 points to the range of 15. But if you set it for range 9, like a medium laser range it does say 10 damage but heats up a little more.
Range 3 might be 12 damage with extra heat.
If you want er ranges, it stays at 8 heat, but drops some damage, like maybe 6 at range 20.
This is all just numbers for an example.
Just to see if it has any traction to be hashed out.
ghostrider
09/01/16 10:23 PM
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Any one know how it is physically possible to have the same amount of shots for the sniper and the ac 10, yet one goes a hell of alot further and does more damage, as the sniper round damages everything in the hex and those around it?

Did they use faerie dust in it?
Or is it dark matter?


I want the sniper rounds for the ac 10. Just the area of effect damage would make it worth a little more weight.
happyguy49
09/02/16 12:08 AM
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AC-10 is a direct fire weapon, like a present-day tank gun.

Sniper is a howitzer; indirect over-the-horizon fire.

They are different animals. There's 120 mm tank guns that can direct fire for a couple miles, and 120 mm artillery pieces that can fire an artillery shell for a DOZEN or more miles, because they are different. The guns are different, so is the ammunition. Someone with military experience could weigh in much more informatively that I, also google (and wikipedia) is your friend.
ghostrider
09/02/16 11:26 AM
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I was asking as my understanding is the sniper ammo does more damage and goes further without being any larger then the short ranged ac 10.
Normally more propellant in a casing means it has to be larger.
The shell itself has to have something extra in it to damage the entire hex and those around it.
With that said, unless the actual 'bullet' is nothing more then a thin shell, something is wrong with 10 shots of artillery ammo fitting in the same space 10 shots of the ac ammo, as well as weighing the same.

And the issue with the thin shell holding the explosives is, it would warp when fired. That would mean no accuracy at all, as they would not warp the same with each shot.
It is my understanding that a flaw in the shell cause the flight path to be changed. Over distance, that would become exaggerated.

And the artillery shells do not have an outside propellant set up, so that could not be sited as why it can go further. It is all self contained or so the rules would suggest.
happyguy49
09/02/16 05:21 PM
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It is my understanding that the AUTO in autocannon means it is a burst-fire weapon. The 100 kilos for a 10 second AC/10 burst versus 100 kilos for one Sniper shell doesn't really defy logic I think. I'm not sure where your problem is/

That said, I'm in favor of a high explosive (HE) ammo type variant for AC's, that maybe does half damage, but that would affect all units in a target hex. Like, an AC/20 with this HE ammo would do 10 points to all units in a hex, in 5 point groups, as per normal artillery rules.
ghostrider
09/03/16 03:39 AM
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The autocannon suggests a 3 to 5 shell burst. A 10 second burst would mean the ultra cannon would not work as a round is supposed to be 10 seconds.

Though I see where part of your response is partially correct. The ac shot is several smaller rounds in the burst. So that is correct that round for round, the ac 10 shot is less room.
That might be what I missed. I was thinking damage, not the individual shell.
Karagin
09/04/16 07:02 AM
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The autocannons are either autoloaded cannons using cassette magazines or they are similar to chain guns like the 25mm to 30mm guns found on many military vehicles today.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
ghostrider
09/06/16 12:23 AM
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So how does the alternative ammo for ac's work?
The precision and armor piercing and things like it?
You get half the shots in a normal cannon, yet nothing about the cannon has been changed to accept the odd ammo.
I could understand the clips, if they use it, being smaller, but the actual ammo is different.
The cluster rounds for the lbx needs a special cannon, as well as the silver bullet gauss rifle. Even the elrms and streak systems require a different launcher.

And with the lbx, it uses standard munitions but can't use the other rounds.
I understand the designers wanting to come up with some reason to use older cannons, but this sounds wrong.
I guess real life physics don't belong in the game.
happyguy49
09/11/16 05:16 AM
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:
I guess real life physics don't belong in the game.



You just now figuring this out? The really neato AC alternative ammunition, such as armor piercing (automatic crit chance) and Precision (-2 to target movement modifiers) have half as many rounds per ton for GAME BALANCE. No other reason. A real-life alternative ammunition might indeed be heavier than a standard HEAP round, but I agree it probably wouldn't weigh TWICE as much. (depleted uranium is however almost twice as heavy as lead though.. a DU AP round would indeed likely be far heavier than a regular explosive round.)

The other special munitions have enough drawbacks that the designers didn't see fit to nerf their shots-per-ton. (Flak, flechette, incendiary, tracer, etc.)
ghostrider
09/18/16 06:09 PM
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Not really a weapon, but how does the c3 system actually work as a tag unit?
I couldn't find any information in the wiki about this.
The main question that came up was does something like an incoming arrow IV missile need to be linked to the c3 system of those in the area, or does it just lock onto any one, such as 2 companies of units using 2 separate networks could target incoming missiles?
Or does the launcher have to be part of the network doing the targeting?
VanVelding
09/20/16 03:10 PM
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Pg 131 of TW says the Master unit can be used as a TAG. Weird but true.
I write stuff, make podcasts, and say curse words on the internet. Pretty original stuff if you've never seen the internet before.
ghostrider
09/21/16 11:18 AM
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That is why the question came up. The c3 system is supposed to work within the set units.
Even if a unit outside that given network has a c3, it is not supposed to be able to connect with it. Now they have newer c3 stuff out there, and I don't know the rules with it, so this may not be the issue anymore, but for the original system, this question was asked.

How would a c3 master provide TAG service to an Arrow IV inbound missile if it is not in the original network?

I guess a prequestion to that, might be, does the c3 use laser communications to the network, or radio waves?
If it uses laser comms, that might be enough to suggest the TAG function. Though I am under the assumption that a single unit without los to any other unit in the network would still work as a designator. Such as in a heavy groove of trees, while the rest of the unit has clear los to the target.
ghostrider
10/03/16 11:41 AM
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Is there any rule saying you can not mix clan double heat sinks with innersphere double sinks?

I know they have to be all double or all single, but nothing about mixing the doubles that I have found.
This would be especially true with omni mechs as they just have the hook ups for things, not caring what they are.

No, this is not trying to suggest an omni could use single and doubles together.

I do understand why you can't use clan endosteel or ferrous fiber armor with innersphere ones.

And the question of if you can mount omni limbs on a standard mech just came to mind when typing this.
If you can, does the equipment have to be permanently mounted?
Or can you swap like normal?
I would figure without upgrading the battle computer it would not recognize anything in 'pods' in the limbs.
Drasnighta
10/03/16 05:44 PM
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No, and its For the same reason why you can't use a mix of Clan Ferro Fibrous with Inner-Sphere Ferro Fibrous.

They are considered one "System". "Heat Sinks" are one system. "Armour" is one system. "Structure" is one system.


Now, as far as I know, that only exists for *designing* a BattleMech. When it came to repairing and jury-rigging damaged 'mechs with those optional rules, you could certainly replace them, but there was a further major penalty (-4 I believe) for the Clan/Inner Sphere compatibility... Wether it was replacing a single External heat Sink with a Clan version or not.

If anything, it may have just been shorthanded because of the "null space" taht they occupy in the Engine. To claim having 13 Double Heat Sinks, 10 of them Inner Sphere (and in the Engine), with 3 of them External and Clan, is just one of things avoided by having them all form under the same "system".

From what i understand again, about the equipment, is the Equipment is physically placed in pods which are then mounted to the OmniMech Limb.

For limb Replacement? I don't know, I can't recall... If the OmniMech limb can't just be bolted straight to the standard chassis, it could just because the technology is fundamentally different... (Man, Stupid Limb uses CAT5 and this old Centurion only has COAX cables!)

But that being said, Jury-Rigging Designs was always open to some rules interpretation even when the rules were presented... because we're well in the realm of Custom-Custom-Custom designs at that point...

Equipment can of course, be completely removed from the pods and then hard-mounted separately.
CEO Heretic BattleMechs.
ghostrider
10/08/16 08:55 PM
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Is there anywhere that says a unit inside a prepared position to start with, could be hooked up to coolant lines or maybe ammo feeds to allow the unit extra supplies while it is still hooked up?

The turret tank made me think of this question.

This would not allowing a tank to be able to carry a laser if it doesn't have the sinks to do so otherwise, but having a mech in one, like a warhawk with the primary configuration, allow it to bleed off some of the extra heat it would generate firing off all 4 erppcs?

These lines would break away once the unit moves out, and could not be reconnected during the current battle.
CarcerKango
10/09/16 01:32 PM
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:

Is there anywhere that says a unit inside a prepared position to start with, could be hooked up to coolant lines or maybe ammo feeds to allow the unit extra supplies while it is still hooked up?

The turret tank made me think of this question.

This would not allowing a tank to be able to carry a laser if it doesn't have the sinks to do so otherwise, but having a mech in one, like a warhawk with the primary configuration, allow it to bleed off some of the extra heat it would generate firing off all 4 erppcs?

These lines would break away once the unit moves out, and could not be reconnected during the current battle.


Could do some awesome defensive tactics with that. I dub it the Castle Brian of **** Off--a bunch of Hellstars all hooked up, blazing away....
ghostrider
10/30/16 01:14 AM
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So I take it there is nothing to support or reject making a prepared position that has hook ups for mechs to use an outside cooling assistance in any of the newer books from the lack of any other input.

Might make an interesting home rule, though it may be a bit to powerful if not limited.

Which also leads me to another thought. Could you use a prepared position field to used as a c3 set up?
As they would be land lines, a ecm suite would not affect it, and with prepared sensors in place, would really make this another devastating defensive idea.
ghostrider
03/01/17 02:56 AM
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Ok. The situation about and AES equipped mech with streak systems in it came up in another thread.

I know the AES system is supposed to help all weapons in that arm with better aim.
But if I recall, the streak system is not able to use other assistance to lock on. Granted this might be implied, not written, so this next question might be off.

Isn't this a catch 22? All weapons are assisted, yet the weapon in question can not use other assistance to work.

I am curious on if I missed something in any of the rules, or if this is a hole in the game.

Not saying it is false about using it, just seem to be in a circular logic hole on this.
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