Helepolis HEP-PH "Pharaoh"

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Requiemking
08/30/16 02:31 PM
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Name: Helepolis HEP-PH "Pharaoh"
Mass: 75 tons
Chassis: Mitchell Heavy HEP
Power Plant: VOX 225
Cruising Speed: 32 KM/H
Maximum Speed: 54 KM/H
Jump Jets: N/A
Jump Capacity: N/A
Armor: Armorscale with CASE
Armament:
1 Armstrong Industries Sniper artillery piece
3 Martell medium lasers
1 Olympia Flamer
Manufacturer: Mitchell Vehicles
Primary Factory: Graham IV
Communications System: Exeter Longscan 100
Targeting and Tracking System: O/P GRD059

Equipment Mass
Internal Structure: 7.5
Engine: 225
Walking MP: 3
Running MP: 5
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks: 10 [20] 0
Gyro: 3
Cockpit: 3
Armor Factor:
Internal Armor
Structure Value
Head
Center Torso
Center Torso (rear)
R/L Torso
R/L Torso (rear)
R/L Arm
R/L Leg

Weapons & Ammo Location Critical Tonnage
Sniper Artillery Piece RA/RT 20 20
Ammo (Sniper) 120 LT 12 12
3 Medium lasers LA 3 3
1 Flamer La 1 1

Notes: The Pharaoh unit, designate HEP-PH, is a refit of an HEP-2H. The Pharaoh drops all of the base model's secondary weaponry in favour of three Martell medium lasers and an Olympia flamer, all cannibalised from battlefield salvage. While this seems to be a decrease in firepower, it in fact acts as a cunning lure. The Pharaoh is equipped with an O/P GRD059 T&T system taken from a Marksman artillery tank. With this targeting system, the Pharaoh can utilise it's Sniper Artillery piece as a Direct-fire weapon, adding to it's overall firepower. To compensate for the massive recoil, a deployable bracing system has been added to Pharaoh's legs. Weighing two tons, this system, consisting of hydraulic spikes in the feet and extending braces on the back of the legs, allows Pharaoh to enter a "locked down" status. While locked down, Pharaoh can fire the Sniper without fear of being moved around by the recoil, albeit at the cost of movement. The Pharaoh, who is intended for extended deployments away from friendly supply lines, carries a staggering twelve tons of ammunition, usually varied based upon the intended mission. An additional half ton of armour has been added, mostly to the left torso, to protect the enormous ammo bays.

Footnote: Due to not possessing TRO 3075, I am unable to complete the table above. I would seriously appreciate it if someone could help me fill in the blanks.


Edited by Requiemking (08/31/16 02:43 AM)
ghostrider
08/30/16 08:48 PM
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Is the cockpit weight a typo, or did you figure out the mech with a 4 ton cockpit?
It should be 3 tons.

Heat generation for the weapons would be nice to see in the list, but that is more to keep it easy to look at with a quick glance.

The lock down bracing is a nice piece though some extra information would be nice to know about it.
Does it give any bonuses for standing if pilot roll required for damage, being pushed or rammed?
Does it have any features like adding to kicks if deployed? (sounds self explanatory, as it is immobile, but we are talking one leg moving, not both)

Another question comes from the armor stuff. Is it using some new armor, or do you have any of the older rules for armor weights so distribution can be done?
Standard armor is 16 points per ton. I know some of the newer stuff is odd and has critical requirements as well.
Requiemking
08/31/16 02:42 AM
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:

Is the cockpit weight a typo, or did you figure out the mech with a 4 ton cockpit?
It should be 3 tons.

Heat generation for the weapons would be nice to see in the list, but that is more to keep it easy to look at with a quick glance.

The lock down bracing is a nice piece though some extra information would be nice to know about it.
Does it give any bonuses for standing if pilot roll required for damage, being pushed or rammed?
Does it have any features like adding to kicks if deployed? (sounds self explanatory, as it is immobile, but we are talking one leg moving, not both)

Another question comes from the armor stuff. Is it using some new armor, or do you have any of the older rules for armor weights so distribution can be done?
Standard armor is 16 points per ton. I know some of the newer stuff is odd and has critical requirements as well.



Cockpit weight is infact a typo. Thanks for pointing that out.

I wasn't really thinking about heat gen. I'll add those at some point.

As for the leg braces, I would imagine that it would give some bonuses to pilot rolls. Unfortunately, part of the system is a set of hydraulic spikes set into the feet, effectively nailing the Pharaoh's feet to the ground, so no kicking.

Armorscale is the original standard armour produced for the base model. It just happens to have CASE.
ghostrider
08/31/16 12:07 PM
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I am going to assume this is innersphere tech, which is something else that is nice to see in the stats.
There is a differences that need to be noted, like the clans use CASE that weight nothing, but the innersphere weighs half ton per CASE used.

Armorscale sounds like a brand, not a type. I couldn't tell you about that time era, but there is things like ferrous fiber, hardened, stealth and a few others on top of the old standard armor. Each has advantages and disadvantages.
Innersphere ferrous fiber takes 14 critical spaces in the mech, and runs 1.12 times the normal armor points.
The clans version is 1.2 times the number.

Now I am not sure if you know, but only vehicles do not build heat from ballistic weapons. This is important if you try to use the artillery piece with the other weapons. Heat generation is a very big deal. Ammo explosions bite, especially if you do it on an alpha strike.
Yes. The small laser is not a good idea to fire with the Sniper. Might hit yourself with the area of effect of the sniper piece.
I would be one of those to remind others this is possible at a range of one.

One last thing I need to point out, to fix my mistake. Standard cockpits are 3 tons. Not sure when, but WOB came up with a smaller cockpit that weight 2 tons. Clarification on that.
Requiemking
08/31/16 12:26 PM
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It is an IS mech. Pharaoh utilises Standard armor, in order to have enough podspace for all that ammo as well as CASE. I also understand about the heat issue with Alpha strikes. The medium lasers have two purposes on him. 1) act as a follow-up punch in case anything survived the initial shot from the Sniper, and 2) to hold off enemy headhunters while the Sniper is reloading. The Flamer is there for anti-infantry purposes.
Reiter
08/31/16 11:47 PM
45.48.53.140

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Hollander sounds like it would fit your vision better, swapping that gauss for artillery and slower ground speed.

It doesn't have to use and waste tonnage to fit the "bracing" system you envision for the legs cause the artist just designed it around the creators image; unless you want to add that quick. And the tonnage for ammo, that is incredibly high, six would be enough in my opinion. Might as well use a vehicle at a cheaper cost, mechs are kind of like infantry in WWII that charge and hold ground with some guys manning heavy machineguns (LRM boats) to cover them; you don't need a lot of weight a mech for very long range indirect support if you can use a couple of cheaper vehicles.


Edited by Reiter (08/31/16 11:48 PM)
Requiemking
09/01/16 12:36 AM
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Quote:
Reiter writes:

Hollander sounds like it would fit your vision better, swapping that gauss for artillery and slower ground speed.

It doesn't have to use and waste tonnage to fit the "bracing" system you envision for the legs cause the artist just designed it around the creators image; unless you want to add that quick. And the tonnage for ammo, that is incredibly high, six would be enough in my opinion. Might as well use a vehicle at a cheaper cost, mechs are kind of like infantry in WWII that charge and hold ground with some guys manning heavy machineguns (LRM boats) to cover them; you don't need a lot of weight a mech for very long range indirect support if you can use a couple of cheaper vehicles.



Well, thats the issue. Most artillery systems were so heavy that, if you wanted to mount the on a mech, it had to be a Heavy. The concept the Helepolis, the base mech for Pharaoh, is a good one, it just needed work. The modifications, including the bracing systems, are to correct the Helepolii's flaws, namely, a distinctive disadvantage at conventional engagement ranges and the inherent instability of mounting 20 ton artillery piece on a bipedal frame.
ghostrider
09/01/16 12:08 PM
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If you have access to the book with the clan Naga, they go over that issue. They have pod mounted arrow IV systems in them with small lasers for defense.
And the issue with a mech carrying and using a 20 ton piece of equipment the fires hasn't been addressed in the newer books. The heavy gauss rifle comes to mind. Recoil dampeners and such, but firing off multiple units like the rifles on the fafnir should cause the mech to become more unstable then not.

But the hollander does make a good case for a lighter mech to use artillery. Using the rules to make it stable, you might suggest they be stopped and remain in place for a turn to brace for firing the piece.

The pictures of mechs don't always make sense. The original wolverine has a hand held canister that makes little sense, and it carries the ac 5 that looks detachable rifle. Even the battle masters ppc looks detachable, and one of the novels, suggested it could be dropped. I want to say Day of Heroes. They may have changed it, but I have not seen much in the rules about dropping such weapons.
Imagine a mech that move 5/8 that drops enough weight to bump it up to 6/9. Well there is nothing in the rules that would allow it though it should if you could do such a thing. Maybe carry lrms and ammo for them. Use them up, and drop it so you can get into short range with a better movement profile. Elementals are supposed to do that with their srm 2 packs. Haven't seen much to support that, but then there are some issues with missing ideas.
Requiemking
09/01/16 01:15 PM
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Quote:
ghostrider writes:

If you have access to the book with the clan Naga, they go over that issue. They have pod mounted arrow IV systems in them with small lasers for defense.
And the issue with a mech carrying and using a 20 ton piece of equipment the fires hasn't been addressed in the newer books. The heavy gauss rifle comes to mind. Recoil dampeners and such, but firing off multiple units like the rifles on the fafnir should cause the mech to become more unstable then not.



Here is the thing though. Arrow IV is a missile-based artillery, while the Sniper, which Pharaoh carries, is a more traditional artillery cannon. Also, on the Sniper's page here, it states that the Helepolis was an insufficient platform, yet it doesn't say why. I assumed recoil was to blame, hence the bracing system.
ghostrider
09/01/16 10:19 PM
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The earliest version used standard heat sinks and and its Primitive Engine could only manage 30 km/h. This proved to be a challenge as the early Helepolis needed to completely stop to fire the Sniper artillery and then start moving again before counter-battery fire destroyed the unit. Twenty and a half tons of Primitive Armor protect the Helepolis from enemy fire.[2] The weight and bulk of the primitive systems prevented the designers from installing the long range missiles used on later models

Ok the first one says why it was a problem. Since I don't have the book with the mech in it, I don't know how much ammo it carries. It may only carry a ton. 10 shots really isn't alot when you think about it. It also depends on when in real life it was designed. Artillery in the original books on up to the master rules have artillery hard as hell to hit things that moved. Not sure if they changed them since then.

Granted it could be something the developers threw in there, like the mech that became the clans stone rhino. The Behemoth supposedly had the legs shut down on the test run. Supposedly, the war stopped any more tests and the clans took it with them and fixed what ever the issue was.
But this is just one example of the things the developers threw in there.
Another good example is the original charger. That it was even in the books was beyond dumb in my opinion. It was a melee mech, that was just a horrible design for me. 5 small lasers on an 80 ton mech? Only physical attacks were the threat from it. But they kept it.
happyguy49
09/01/16 11:53 PM
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Just to throw this in there, you can actually make a mech with TWO sniper artillery pieces. It is definitely a tight fit however, as each Sniper needs 20 crits.

This is from the fan-created TRO 3145 Steiner Supplemental that someone posted a PDF file of in the past (it is actually a fantastic TRO, look it up! It's on these forums someplace. (i fed the stats from the PDF into SAW to get this data to copy-and-paste.)


NIB-35 Nibelung

Mass: 100 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Experimental Tech
Era: Dark Ages
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/X-X-E-A
Production Year: 3132
Cost: 9,770,000 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,502

Chassis: Unknown Standard
Power Plant: Unknown 300 Fusion Engine
Walking Speed: 32.4 km/h
Maximum Speed: 54.0 km/h
Jump Jets: None
Jump Capacity: 0 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor
Armament:
2 Snipers
4 Medium Lasers
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown

================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard 152 points 10.00
Engine: Fusion Engine 300 19.00
Walking MP: 3
Running MP: 5
Jumping MP: 0
Heat Sinks: Double Heat Sink 10(20) 0.00
Gyro: XL 1.50
Cockpit: Small 2.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA R: SH+UA
Armor: Standard Armor AV - 280 17.50

Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 31 47
Center Torso (rear) 10
L/R Torso 21 32
L/R Torso (rear) 10
L/R Arm 17 30
L/R Leg 21 35

================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Targeting Computer HD - 1 1.00
Sniper RT/RA 10 12/8 20.00
Sniper LT/LA 10 12/8 20.00
2 Medium Lasers RA 6 2 2.00
2 Medium Lasers LA 6 2 2.00
@Sniper (10) HD - 1 1.00
@Sniper (20) RL - 2 2.00
@Sniper (20) LL - 2 2.00
Free Critical Slots: 0

BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 9 Points: 15
3 5 2 0 0 4 1 Structure: 8
Special Abilities: ARTS, SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA

Features the following Design Quirks: Extended Torso Twist, Fast Reload,
Minimal Arms, Bad Reputation.
Arms (Medium Lasers only) are flippable


A very neat concept, and since Sniper's have 10 rounds per ton of ammo to the Arrow 4's 5, this design has better endurance than a Naga or the DCMS clone (o-bakemono or some such) It's cheap too! Less than 10 mil.

I would change a few things myself.. make the medium lasers ER models, use a light engine and compact gyro instead of an XL gyro, that gets you a different mix of free tons and crits, and can let you pack in even more Sniper ammo; FOR VARIETY! Modern rules allow for Copperheads, artillery-piece delivered FASCAM, cluster rounds which hit 'Mechs on their PUNCH location tables (so 1 in 6 chance that each cluster of 5 points is a head hit), other fun stuff. I'm spitballing my own Double-Sniper design at the moment.
Requiemking
09/02/16 01:51 AM
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Yeah, but I'm thinking that recoil is to blame as to why mechs like the Helepolis were a failure. After all, the recoil from a 20 ton cannon would probably shove a mech around, much like another certain weapon whose recoil is headscratching (I'm looking at you Gauss rifle. Lol, an over-glorified coil gun having enough recoil to send a 35 ton mech sliding 600 feet).
ghostrider
09/02/16 11:37 AM
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Something you need to understand about the game. And it has been told to me several times.
Logic has no place in it.


Now there is an issue with the mls flipping in the double sniper mech.
I don't remember seeing anywhere you can split an arm up so parts of it can be flipped while others can't which does lead to the question, can you flip an arm with a weapon that is part of the torso as well?
The quick answer would have issues. The arm actuator situation would suggest yes, while the torso mounted issue would say no.
In real life, a simple turret would solve this, but that isn't covered in the game for this. Yes you can mount a turret, but they don't.

And as for recoil. I agree, the mech would have to be braced and possible even kneeling to gain enough balance to keep from falling over. All video I have seen of artillery firing, like howitzers, have the entire gun jump in place.

As a side note. If the light engine uses and side torso crits, that would not work as the snipers take up all side torso space.
happyguy49
09/02/16 05:13 PM
98.30.242.159

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I wouldn't sweat the recoil, the rules don't have anything to say about it. As long as you have the space and weight to mount it, you can shoot it. The only exceptions are the HGR and iHGR, which stipulate torso-only mountings for mech's, and body-only mountings for tanks.

ghost, the sniper doesn't necessarily have to take up all side torso space, as long as it has the available 20 crits worth of space in two adjacent locations. If you fill 10 of the crits in an arm and the remaining 10 in the corresponding side torso location, you still have 2 available crits in that side torso, which is enough for a Light engine (or a Clan XL).
Requiemking
09/03/16 02:28 AM
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Taking everything into account, I'm going to release a redone version of Pharaoh. However, I will keep the original one up, in case recoil is in fact a factor.
ghostrider
09/03/16 03:51 AM
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The design has a pair of medium lasers in each arm. That is what I based the question of the engine off of.
Removing the 4 mls might work, but then you have 4 tons of weight not including the savings the engine would give to play with.
A ton and a half can to towards armor, but you still have tonnage left with no crits.
This is all for the 100 tonner mech, not the 75 tonner.

Now if they have changed the rules to allow partial parts of the arms to flip then I don't know about it.
But it sounds like a house rule. Not a bad thing, but it should be noted as not canon.
happyguy49
09/03/16 06:38 PM
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Total Warfare, p 175

" The one exception to this rule occurs if weapons are split between the arm and torso; while the arms can still flip to fire weapons that do not have a split location, split-location weapons can only fire into the front arc."

So in the case of the "NIB-35 Nibelung", it COULD flip the medium lasers, but it COULD NOT flip the snipers (as they are split between the arms and torsos. Hope that clarifies.

No, the Nibelung couldn't keep its arm lasers and also use a light or clan XL engine, but were I to make a similar design I would site its backup weapons in the head and center torso anyway, as it is rather important to soak those crits and reduce the chance of engine, gyro, and cockpit crits.
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