lonewolf0409
06/26/17 09:32 PM
107.77.89.128
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If a space station (Snowden) is attached to a jumpship, can it still carry additional dropships? Can the space station continue to operate while still docked with jumpship? Does a space station docked to a jumpship basically function like a docked dropship?
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Frabby
06/27/17 04:09 PM
84.180.92.118
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It depends. Though I can't look it up for you rigth now, if memory serves mobile stations of up to 100,000 tons are basically the same thing as a docked DropShip. Larger stations have to be disassembled into individual parts that cannot be larger than 100,000 tons, which implies that the station is nonfunctional while in transit. One canonical example (Bastion?) was mobile only in the sense that its two halves were bolted together permanently at the destination, creating a functional but non-mobile station in the process.
It is not possible (or allowed under the rules) to attach DropShips to a space station that is in turn docked to a JumpShip, and initiate a jump. Space stations essentially work like DropShips for jumping purposes, and a K-F boom invariably has to be plugged directly into a K-F drive core to extend the jump bubble. You cannot daisy-chain K-F booms.
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ghostrider
06/27/17 05:50 PM
66.74.61.223
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Depending on the time frame, there are battlestations that are able to be moved with something other then a jumpship. the Capitol Class from the federated suns portion of the fedcom. They can be moved with a tug according to the tro 3057 book. They do say jumpships can move it from system to system, but there have been no jumpships at that time modified to do so.
There is a question with the fluff on the K-F booms. The ships that were moving space ice burgs supposedly overlapped the hyperspace fields to move them and I have not seen anything to suggest the burgs were torn apart from this move.
Since all of the item has to be in the boom area, according to the rules, it would suggest it was possible to sync up multiple booms. Maybe not daisy-chain them so much, but there is the question of something large like a station would not be destroyed from the process.
I want to say it was the Ryan Cartel that did the ice shipments.
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Cray
06/27/17 06:46 PM
72.189.109.30
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Quote:
LONEWOLF0409 WROTE
If a space station (Snowden) is attached to a jumpship, can it still carry additional dropships?
Nope. The docking collars on space stations are not parts of KF drives and therefore can't carry additional payloads through a jump. Only the docking collars on the JumpShip can do that.
Quote:
Can the space station continue to operate while still docked with jumpship?
To an extent. See Strategic Operations p66 "Docking." This covers attacks from docked units and other actions they may take.
Quote:
Does a space station docked to a jumpship basically function like a docked dropship?
Yes.
************************
Quote:
GHOSTRIDER WROTE
Depending on the time frame, there are battlestations that are able to be moved with something other then a jumpship. the Capitol Class from the federated suns portion of the fedcom. They can be moved with a tug according to the tro 3057 book. They do say jumpships can move it from system to system, but there have been no jumpships at that time modified to do so.
The Snowden was designed to be moved by a conventional JumpShip.
Quote:
There is a question with the fluff on the K-F booms. The ships that were moving space ice burgs supposedly overlapped the hyperspace fields to move them and I have not seen anything to suggest the burgs were torn apart from this move.
Strategic Operations p. 131:
The iceberg was still wrapped in netting and
a sunshield because, more often than not, it was shattered by
the jump, but almost all the water would make the trip in a
manageably semi-intact mass. The iceships understandably
used modified K-F drive controllers and unique, very complex
navigation calculations, so this is not a stunt that just any
JumpShip can accomplish.
As further described on p. 131, this only worked for the Ryan Ice Cartel's iceships (a squadron of 16 ships per multi-kilometer iceberg) because they were transporting simple, mostly-homogeneous ice. Trying to do so with something complicated like a space station or human would result in a puree. As noted earlier on p. 131:
The [jumpship] is trying to “rotate” a volume of space
through hyperspace, but can only do that accurately for mass
that it is aware of. This is accomplished with the K-F core, which
has branches that “map” the mass in the ship, and extensions [KF booms]
through docking collars and into DropShips. Mass that the
K-F drive is unaware of—such as a nearby fighter—generally
gets treated as empty space, not as a complicated aerospace
frame and human pilot. Sometimes nearby masses get carried
with the jump, sometimes they don’t, and often they are only
partially carried through the jump, inflicting immense—but
sometimes survivable—damage.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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lonewolf0409
06/27/17 09:34 PM
107.77.89.119
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OK so I made a mistake typing. I meant can a jumpship with a docked Snowden also carry additional drop ships (Octopus class Tugs).
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ghostrider
06/28/17 04:41 AM
66.74.61.223
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Nice to see a later book actually dealt with the out of the normal rules of the ice ships.
And even though it doesn't say it, I would think the nettings and sunshields had to be replaced every time the ships jumped. I say this as it sounded like they had multi jumps to get the ice to some planets.
But that does bring up a question about the booms.
Does it have to be attached to the ship, like a dropship sitting in a dock collar?
Or can the mass be free floating with the system being made aware of the extra non attached items?
Yes, this does set up a major abuse issue as people will try to use this to move additional items, but I am looking for some understanding. (Yeah, it's a fantasy game. Understanding doesn't always work)
And more often then not in the description suggest things can and do survive.
Though I would think cutting up the ice and moving it in smaller chunks would be a better idea. I would think safer as well. I single missed calculation like being off a dozen meters by one ship, might put it into the ice itself.
Which makes me wonder if the cracked burg has any momentum from breaking apart.
And lonewolf, I would believe you mean the snowden is docked to a jumpship, can the octopus be docked with the snowden.
Which is interesting. This is not canon, but I would think having an octopus latched onto the outside of a snowden or even a drop ship, should be allowed if it doesn't violate the 100,000 ton limit.
But this would set up abuses as well. Put fighters on the outside of a ship to carry more comes to mind. Don't need to have pilots in them. Just enough to allow more units to be moved.
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lonewolf0409
06/28/17 07:53 AM
107.77.89.119
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The Octopus tug is a drop ship listed in TRO 3057.
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Frabby
06/28/17 10:32 AM
84.180.92.118
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As per the rules, you can dock one DropShip (or space station module) to each hardpoint. So yes, a JumpShip can carry as many DropShips, space station modules, or a combination thereof, as it has hardpoints.
There is the "large DropShip" quirk that basically says a DropShip with this quirk is so large that it blocks out a second hardpoint on the JumpShip. But that is neither hard-coded into the rules (it used to be in the earliest edition for DropShips over 60,000 tons but this was dropped) nor am I aware of any space station module going with this quirk. Only the Behemoth and Castrum, two 100,000 ton DropShip designs, have this quirk afaik.
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Cray
06/28/17 06:48 PM
72.189.109.30
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Quote:
And lonewolf, I would believe you mean the snowden is docked to a jumpship, can the octopus be docked with the snowden.
If that's the case, then no. The Octopus and Snowden need their own docking collars. The rules are 1 vessel per docking collar, no more than 100,000 tons per collar. Fluff explanations are purely secondary.
Quote:
Nice to see a later book actually dealt with the out of the normal rules of the ice ships.
And even though it doesn't say it, I would think the nettings and sunshields had to be replaced every time the ships jumped.
That was my thought when I wrote that bit. The netting and sunshields would be damaged, too, though a cleverly designed net with redundant webbing could tolerate damage.
Quote:
I say this as it sounded like they had multi jumps to get the ice to some planets.
I'm sure BT would make it work that way, but water is very common in the universe, if not on BT's planets. We're seeing it everywhere in the universe now and even have moons made of nearly pure water ice (e.g., Enceladus). In the Inner Sphere, a 30-light year jump should encompass over 300 star systems - mostly uninhabited - with plenty of accessible ice for an iceship squadron. So more than one jump shouldn't be necessary, though I'm sure you'll find canon indicating iceship made multi-jump deliveries.
Quote:
But that does bring up a question about the booms.
Does it have to be attached to the ship, like a dropship sitting in a dock collar?
Or can the mass be free floating with the system being made aware of the extra non attached items?
The boom is the key component of a jump-capable docking collar, not a separate component. If you just want to dock with a ship for, say, cargo transfer, you can do that any (0 tons) cargo bay door (see p. 66 Strategic Operations, Docking). A docking collar that carries a DropShip through a hyperspace jump is a special 1000-ton item integrated to the KF drive. For critical hit purposes, the doohickey that can be broken and ruin a docking collar for jump purposes is the KF boom, but it's not some crane or, well, boom separate of the jump-capable collar.
Could docking collars extend at odd angles? Sure, the Monolith does that. Per TR3057, p. 106, "The Monolith has a unique docking system that consists of nine standard docking collars mounted on arms. These docking arms are arranged in three groups, forming rings around the Monolith’s cargo section. These arms enable the Monolith to accommodate even the largest DropShips."
However, the limit per docking collar for a jump is still 1 DropShip of no more than 100,000 tons. Shape and position of the DropShip don't matter, and if all this fluff discussion contradicts the rules, well, the rules have precedence.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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ghostrider
06/29/17 04:20 AM
66.74.61.223
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I can see where the question of the octopus comes into question as their 'collar' can attach to any ship anywhere. That means they could very well connect to the bridge module of the jumpship.
But there is no where in the description that says they can ride another drop ship docked. So the 1 Dropship per collar would be used.
From the sounds of the explanation, it seems the boom is basically an interlock that tells the main navigation computer it has such and such attached and it weighs so much, and is so big. If this is true, then having a tug attached to another ship is possible to be used in a piggy back manor. You would just have to over ride the interlock and tell the system of the extra mass attached to that collar, up to the weight limit.
I originally thought the boom was an antenna type of unit that extends out so the hyper space field extends past the end of it, allowing anything attached to the ship in that are to be moved with the ship. Any unaccounted for weight might cause a misjump, as the system would not have accounted for the extra mass.
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Cray
06/29/17 08:14 PM
72.189.109.30
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Quote:
From the sounds of the explanation, it seems the boom is basically an interlock that tells the main navigation computer it has such and such attached and it weighs so much, and is so big. If this is true, then having a tug attached to another ship is possible to be used in a piggy back manor. You would just have to over ride the interlock and tell the system of the extra mass attached to that collar, up to the weight limit.
Nope. Per StratOps p. 131, the boom is involved in a much more elaborate mapping of contents of a DropShip. The description of what happens when the hyperspace field thinks it's dealing with empty space or simple matter like ice is telling.
But fluff aside, the rules are clear: one vessel per docking collar, whether it's a 200-ton DropShuttle or 100,000-ton space station. The fluff is just handwaving to explain the rules with some fiction, not a reason to modify the rules.
Quote:
I originally thought the boom was an antenna type of unit that extends out so the hyper space field extends past the end of it, allowing anything attached to the ship in that are to be moved with the ship. Any unaccounted for weight might cause a misjump, as the system would not have accounted for the extra mass.
That's still basically correct. The boom is deeply involved in getting the hyperspace field correctly extended around additional mass.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Edited by Cray (06/29/17 08:15 PM)
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