Design Concept: Bracket Fire vs Alpha Strike

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KamikazeJohnson
08/26/17 04:03 AM
142.160.216.118

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Discussion Time.

A common point of discussion of design posted here is whether or not a 'Mech should have enough heat sinks to fire ALL weapons EVERY round. More specifically, is it better to equip a 'Mech to fire, say, PPCs at close range, or use additional close-range weapons instead of additional heat sinks?

First off, this is for 'Mechs that mount a combination of Long- and Short-Range weapons. 'Mechs that mount exclusively Long range or Short range weapons should absolutely mount enough Heat Sinks to Alpha Strike safely, or at least close.

Personally, when designing, I prefer to design for Bracket Fire; in my experience, it allows the greatest amount of flexibility as well as the highest average damage/turn across all ranges.

To illustrate my point, I will post 4 variations of the Grasshopper 'Mech to follow in this thread. Check the first two over, and see how they differ in terms of practical use.

The Stock model, the GHR-5H, is much loved for its ability to fire its Large Laser and all 4 Medium Lasers while Running and maintaining even Heat. Very nice. However, consider what you can do it you do not insist on using the Large Laser at close range.

The GHR-5G trades 2 of the 5H's 22 Heat Sinks for additional Medium Lasers. Nothing changes at long range, but in close, the 5G can fire 6 Medium Lasers instead of 4 plus the Large for an increase of 2 damage. True, you lose the bigger 8-point "crunch" of the Large Laser, but you also suffer a lot less if the Large Laser gets taken out by a critical hit.

The advantage of Bracket Fire is even more apparent if you try a simple Star League Era upgrade; the -A variants trade the Large Laser in the 5H and 5G models with an ER Large Laser. The 5H-A actually suffers from this upgrade, effectively losing a Medium Laser; in fact, it would be beneficial to trade one of the Medium Lasers for a 23rd Heat Sink to restore the original heat balance, only now with the ER Large Laser and only 3 Medium Lasers. The 5G-A, OTOH, gains the long-range benefits of the improved weapon without having to deal with the increased heat generation in close.

In addition, once you start using DHS, the tremendous number of Crit Spaces saved by using fewer Heat Sinks can often allow the use of Endo Steel, Ferro Fibrous, or TSM, freeing up even more tonnage for more Armour or Weapons.

Comments? Opinions?
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
KamikazeJohnson
08/26/17 04:06 AM
142.160.216.118

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The 3025 Stock Grasshopper

Code:

Grasshopper GHR-5H

Mass: 70 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Age of War/Star League
Tech Rating/Era Availability: D/C-E-D-A
Production Year: 2750
Cost: 5,973,573 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,427

Chassis: Unknown Standard
Power Plant: Unknown 280 Fusion Engine
Walking Speed: 43.2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64.8 km/h
Jump Jets: Unknown
Jump Capacity: 120 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor
Armament:
1 Large Laser
4 Medium Lasers
1 LRM-5
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown

================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard 107 points 7.00
Engine: Fusion Engine 280 16.00
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Jumping MP: 4 Standard
Jump Jet Locations: 2 LL, 2 RL 4.00
Heat Sinks: Single Heat Sink 22 12.00
Heat Sink Locations: 5 LT, 4 RT, 1 LA, 1 RA
Gyro: Standard 3.00
Cockpit: Standard 3.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA+LA+H R: SH+UA+LA+H
Armor: Standard Armor AV - 208 13.00

Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 22 30
Center Torso (rear) 13
L/R Torso 15 20
L/R Torso (rear) 10
L/R Arm 11 22
L/R Leg 15 26

================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Medium Laser RA 3 1 1.00
Medium Laser LA 3 1 1.00
Medium Laser RT 3 1 1.00
Medium Laser LT 3 1 1.00
Large Laser CT 8 2 5.00
LRM-5 HD 2 1 2.00
@LRM-5 (24) RT - 1 1.00
Free Critical Slots: 24

BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 7 Points: 14
4j 3 4 1 0 3 0 Structure: 6
Special Abilities: SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson


Edited by KamikazeJohnson (08/26/17 04:17 AM)
KamikazeJohnson
08/26/17 04:08 AM
142.160.216.118

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My 3025 variants. Trade 2 Heat Sinks for Medium Lasers for more close range firepower.

Code:

Grasshopper GHR-5G

Mass: 70 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Age of War/Star League
Tech Rating/Era Availability: D/C-E-D-A
Production Year: 2750
Cost: 6,102,773 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,491

Chassis: Unknown Standard
Power Plant: Unknown 280 Fusion Engine
Walking Speed: 43.2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64.8 km/h
Jump Jets: Unknown
Jump Capacity: 120 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor
Armament:
1 Large Laser
6 Medium Lasers
1 LRM-5
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown

================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard 107 points 7.00
Engine: Fusion Engine 280 16.00
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Jumping MP: 4 Standard
Jump Jet Locations: 2 LL, 2 RL 4.00
Heat Sinks: Single Heat Sink 20 10.00
Heat Sink Locations: 5 LT, 4 RT
Gyro: Standard 3.00
Cockpit: Standard 3.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA+LA+H R: SH+UA+LA+H
Armor: Standard Armor AV - 208 13.00

Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 22 30
Center Torso (rear) 13
L/R Torso 15 20
L/R Torso (rear) 10
L/R Arm 11 22
L/R Leg 15 26

================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 Medium Lasers RA 6 2 2.00
2 Medium Lasers LA 6 2 2.00
Medium Laser RT 3 1 1.00
Medium Laser LT 3 1 1.00
Large Laser CT 8 2 5.00
LRM-5 HD 2 1 2.00
@LRM-5 (24) RT - 1 1.00
Free Critical Slots: 24

BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 7 Points: 15
4j 3 3 1 0 3 2 Structure: 6
Special Abilities: SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson


Edited by KamikazeJohnson (08/26/17 04:16 AM)
KamikazeJohnson
08/26/17 04:11 AM
142.160.216.118

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Star League Era "Upgrade" of the 5H. Upgrading to the ER Large Laser is nice at long range, but upsets the heat balance at short range, resulting in a net decrease in effective firepower.

Code:

Grasshopper GHR-5H-A

Mass: 70 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Age of War/Star League
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/E-F-D-A
Production Year: 2750
Cost: 6,143,573 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,451

Chassis: Unknown Standard
Power Plant: Unknown 280 Fusion Engine
Walking Speed: 43.2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64.8 km/h
Jump Jets: Unknown
Jump Capacity: 120 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor
Armament:
1 ER Large Laser
4 Medium Lasers
1 LRM-5
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown

================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard 107 points 7.00
Engine: Fusion Engine 280 16.00
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Jumping MP: 4 Standard
Jump Jet Locations: 2 LL, 2 RL 4.00
Heat Sinks: Single Heat Sink 22 12.00
Heat Sink Locations: 5 LT, 4 RT, 1 LA, 1 RA
Gyro: Standard 3.00
Cockpit: Standard 3.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA+LA+H R: SH+UA+LA+H
Armor: Standard Armor AV - 208 13.00

Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 22 30
Center Torso (rear) 13
L/R Torso 15 20
L/R Torso (rear) 10
L/R Arm 11 22
L/R Leg 15 26

================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Medium Laser RA 3 1 1.00
Medium Laser LA 3 1 1.00
Medium Laser RT 3 1 1.00
Medium Laser LT 3 1 1.00
ER Large Laser CT 12 2 5.00
LRM-5 HD 2 1 2.00
@LRM-5 (24) RT - 1 1.00
Free Critical Slots: 24

BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 7 Points: 15
4j 3 3 1 0 3 1 Structure: 6
Special Abilities: SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson


Edited by KamikazeJohnson (08/26/17 04:17 AM)
KamikazeJohnson
08/26/17 04:15 AM
142.160.216.118

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My variant, upgraded to an ER Large Laser. Full benefits of the upgraded weapon, also able to retain all its effectiveness in close as there is no need to deal with the increased heat. Effectively uses three Medium Lasers in close in exchange for the ER Large Laser.

Code:

Grasshopper GHR-5G-A

Mass: 70 tons
Tech Base: Inner Sphere
Chassis Config: Biped
Rules Level: Tournament Legal
Era: Age of War/Star League
Tech Rating/Era Availability: E/E-F-D-A
Production Year: 2750
Cost: 6,272,773 C-Bills
Battle Value: 1,514

Chassis: Unknown Standard
Power Plant: Unknown 280 Fusion Engine
Walking Speed: 43.2 km/h
Maximum Speed: 64.8 km/h
Jump Jets: Unknown
Jump Capacity: 120 meters
Armor: Unknown Standard Armor
Armament:
1 ER Large Laser
6 Medium Lasers
1 LRM-5
Manufacturer: Unknown
Primary Factory: Unknown
Communications System: Unknown
Targeting and Tracking System: Unknown

================================================================================
Equipment Type Rating Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Internal Structure: Standard 107 points 7.00
Engine: Fusion Engine 280 16.00
Walking MP: 4
Running MP: 6
Jumping MP: 4 Standard
Jump Jet Locations: 2 LL, 2 RL 4.00
Heat Sinks: Single Heat Sink 20 10.00
Heat Sink Locations: 5 LT, 4 RT
Gyro: Standard 3.00
Cockpit: Standard 3.00
Actuators: L: SH+UA+LA+H R: SH+UA+LA+H
Armor: Standard Armor AV - 208 13.00

Internal Armor
Structure Factor
Head 3 9
Center Torso 22 30
Center Torso (rear) 13
L/R Torso 15 20
L/R Torso (rear) 10
L/R Arm 11 22
L/R Leg 15 26

================================================================================
Equipment Location Heat Critical Mass
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 Medium Lasers RA 6 2 2.00
2 Medium Lasers LA 6 2 2.00
Medium Laser RT 3 1 1.00
Medium Laser LT 3 1 1.00
ER Large Laser CT 12 2 5.00
LRM-5 HD 2 1 2.00
@LRM-5 (24) RT - 1 1.00
Free Critical Slots: 24

BattleForce Statistics
MV S (+0) M (+2) L (+4) E (+6) Wt. Ov Armor: 7 Points: 15
4j 3 3 1 0 3 2 Structure: 6
Special Abilities: SRCH, ES, SEAL, SOA
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson


Edited by KamikazeJohnson (08/26/17 04:18 AM)
Karagin
08/26/17 10:09 AM
72.176.187.91

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The ideas you bring up can be seen in several of my designs, in that having the ability to pick a range bracket and be successful vs being a jack of all ranges. Balance is still there and the mechs are not super mechs, using the tech and smart tactical thinking I think is the key.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Retry
08/26/17 04:12 PM
64.189.132.158

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The effectiveness of bracket firing is largely a function of the insane damage capacity of the Medium Laser (and its derivatives).

The vanilla IS-era Medium laser weighs 1 ton, has 1 crit, has a 3-6-9 range profile, deals 5 damage, produces 3 heat and doesn't consume ammunition. With a damage/ton and damage/crit ratios of 5, it's light and compact enough to be added in a design in significant numbers as an after-thought, and can be swapped with SHS extremely easily. Compared to the Large Laser's damage/ton ratio of 1.6 (ML having a 3x higher value), it's quite easy to see the benefit of attaching a few compact mediums instead of adding some heat sinks to fire both primary and secondary systems.

Going for a bracket-firing setup that doesn't heavily lean on medium lasers is harder to do and has much smaller benefits over an "alpha-centric" build. Take the SRM-2, which has the same weight, size, and range profile of the Medium Laser. It produces 1 less heat for a total of 2, and can potentially role for a 2nd hit and thus cause a 2nd critical hit.

However, SRMs need ammunition to work, which means heavier strained logistics when compared to a medium laser system. At maximum 2 missiles can hit, dealing 2 damage each for 4 damage, which is less than the medium laser. On average, ~1.5 missiles will hit during a successful turn, giving an average damage/ton and damage/crit ratio of 3. That's before counting the ammunition requirements, which will reduce the ratio further. 1 ton of ammo with 2 SRM 2s will then give average damage/ton ratios of 2, which is only slightly higher than the large laser and thus much harder to justify its inclusion in a battlemech's weapon systems for bracket firing.

(Of course, the SRM has other areas which it can shine that can make it worth the weight over the ML, namely alternative ammunition loads like smoke, infernos, and mine-clearance. In that case, the SRM is included less for the advantage of bracket firing and more for its additional, often out-of-combat utilities.)

Bracket firing is also harder to manage if with several other weapon systems. Take the AC-10: 12 tons, 7 crits 5-10-15 range brackets, and 10 damage. A theoretical battlemech with 1 AC/10 and 2 Medium lasers and just enough heat sinks to fire all of them will benefit very little from exchanging an additional heat sink for another medium laser, since the AC-10 is already well tuned to fire at the short-range brackets with the current ML systems. The only other way to set up bracket firing would be by adding an effective long-range weapon to go with the AC/10, but since the autocannon is so heavy to begin with that limits the choices down to the LRM systems, which are at least twice as inefficient damage-wise as the medium laser per ton.

Bracket firing is more useful for inner sphere technology than it is for higher tech weapons like Clan-tech. IS weaponry tends to be heavier, their long-range weapons tend to have crippling minimum ranges, and their weight-saving technology like endo-steel, ferro-fibrous, and DHS are more bulky and need to be used sparingly, making bracket firing more useful. In contrast, Clan weight-saving technologies are more compact and their long-range weaponries tend to lack that crippling minimum range which makes them useful across all of their brackets, which encourages alpha-sinked designs.
KamikazeJohnson
08/28/17 02:40 AM
142.160.216.118

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Quote:
The effectiveness of bracket firing is largely a function of the insane damage capacity of the Medium Laser (and its derivatives).

The vanilla IS-era Medium laser weighs 1 ton, has 1 crit, has a 3-6-9 range profile, deals 5 damage, produces 3 heat and doesn't consume ammunition. With a damage/ton and damage/crit ratios of 5, it's light and compact enough to be added in a design in significant numbers as an after-thought, and can be swapped with SHS extremely easily. Compared to the Large Laser's damage/ton ratio of 1.6 (ML having a 3x higher value), it's quite easy to see the benefit of attaching a few compact mediums instead of adding some heat sinks to fire both primary and secondary systems.


I generally consider the Medium Laser the "standard" BT weapon...always use Medium Lasers unless you have good reason to use something else. SRMs give you scatter damage, AC/20 gives you Blunt Force Trauma, PPC gives you Range and Damage, etc.

Quote:

However, SRMs need ammunition to work, which means heavier strained logistics when compared to a medium laser system. At maximum 2 missiles can hit, dealing 2 damage each for 4 damage, which is less than the medium laser. On average, ~1.5 missiles will hit during a successful turn, giving an average damage/ton and damage/crit ratio of 3. That's before counting the ammunition requirements, which will reduce the ratio further. 1 ton of ammo with 2 SRM 2s will then give average damage/ton ratios of 2, which is only slightly higher than the large laser and thus much harder to justify its inclusion in a battlemech's weapon systems for bracket firing.

(Of course, the SRM has other areas which it can shine that can make it worth the weight over the ML, namely alternative ammunition loads like smoke, infernos, and mine-clearance. In that case, the SRM is included less for the advantage of bracket firing and more for its additional, often out-of-combat utilities.)


SRMs are also more heat-efficient than MLs, plus they result in more hits, therefore better crit-seeking potential (ok, not really for the SRM 2, but the 4 and especially the 6 are useful for this reason compared to the ML, and, relevant to the original topic, even more so compared to the PPC or Large Laser)

Quote:
Bracket firing is also harder to manage if with several other weapon systems. Take the AC-10: 12 tons, 7 crits 5-10-15 range brackets, and 10 damage. A theoretical battlemech with 1 AC/10 and 2 Medium lasers and just enough heat sinks to fire all of them will benefit very little from exchanging an additional heat sink for another medium laser, since the AC-10 is already well tuned to fire at the short-range brackets with the current ML systems. The only other way to set up bracket firing would be by adding an effective long-range weapon to go with the AC/10, but since the autocannon is so heavy to begin with that limits the choices down to the LRM systems, which are at least twice as inefficient damage-wise as the medium laser per ton.



Autocannons are different, because of the high-tonnage/low-heat balance; you pay for the weapon in tonnage, rather than in heat (PPC), so once it's installed, there's never any good reason NOT to fire it (except possibly ammo supply). The AC/10 in particular is definitely a "both ways" weapon. By comparison, LRMs take themselves out of the equation at close range because of the Minimum Range issue, leaving PPCs and Large Lasers as the contentious weapons to fire at close range, which is why I'm using those weapons specifically in my comparison.

Quote:
Bracket firing is more useful for inner sphere technology than it is for higher tech weapons like Clan-tech. IS weaponry tends to be heavier, their long-range weapons tend to have crippling minimum ranges, and their weight-saving technology like endo-steel, ferro-fibrous, and DHS are more bulky and need to be used sparingly, making bracket firing more useful. In contrast, Clan weight-saving technologies are more compact and their long-range weaponries tend to lack that crippling minimum range which makes them useful across all of their brackets, which encourages alpha-sinked designs.


I rarely design Clan 'Mechs, so I have no grounds for debate on this point. Although the Clan ER Med Laser is a completely broken weapon which makes using ANY other weapon difficult (not impossible, but difficult) to justify. Everything you said about the IS Med Laser applies even more so to the Clan version.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
ghostrider
08/28/17 04:20 AM
66.74.61.223

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Firing brackets should actually be more efficient of a unit.
Leaving out the campaign mode for a second, ammo weapons are made for quick down and dirty fights. Granted some are over weight, but not much you can do.
The idea of bracket firing means you should have additional weapons you can fire in a panic, though it overheats the mech. And this is the point most seem to want to alpha every turn. I have done it myself.

Take the stock warhammer. Firing both ppcs overheats the mech, yet when you get in closer, the shorter ranged weapons doesn't overheat the mech. Provided you don't fire the ppcs all the time.

I know most do not like to gamble on the just one more shot. They like to know they can mash that button and fire off everything without bothering to hold some weapons back this time. Which looking at it, might actually be a different form of the just one more shot.

I will agree that clantech was a bit over the top. The erml is definitely too powerful on the clan side. It is almost a large laser in a single ton unit.
The issue with the clan mechs doing alphas seems to have allowed the back ground of short brutal combats. I really doubt they ran out of ammo in the trials. Not unless it was a large force on both sides.
Then again, it may be done to make it easier for players. Don't have to think or keep track of what heat your at, or hold off the one something for a turn or two.
The standard spider comes to mind here for heat and waiting turns. Full jump with 2 mls...
AmaroqStarwind
04/10/18 02:04 PM
99.203.155.94

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Ah, yes. The Alpha Strike. The candle that burns twice as bright lasts half as long.

Bracket Fire is a pretty smart tactical and design philosophy, and is actually the one thing that saves a lot of my [intentionally] craptastic designs. If your hottest-running weapons are completely useless in close quarters, why waste heat sinks to fire them and your short range weapons at the same time?

Though this isn't my design, there is a variant of the UrbanMech that replaces the Autocannon 10 (along with its ammo), 11th Heat Sink and Small Laser with an extra 0.5 tons of armor, an LRM-20 (with three tons of ammo) and a Medium Laser. That mech (lovingly dubbed the UM-WTF) is probably the embodiment of Bracket Fire.
http://www.pryderockindustries.com/downl...oming_from.html

LRMs for firing at a distance (and from behind cover with the help of a spotter), and a Medium Laser to protect it in close quarters. Heat management is a non-issue.
Discord: Amaroq the Kitsune#1092
Telegram: @Lycanphoenix
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