200-tons of pure, unadulterated boredom; in Battlemech form.

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l0rDn0o8sKiLlZ
09/26/17 08:36 PM
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Monolith ????
IS advanced
200 tons
BV: 3,406
Cost: 63,396,000 C-bills

Movement: 2/3/2
Engine: 400 Light
Heat Sinks: 35 [70]
Cockpit: Superheavy Cockpit
Gyro: Superheavy Gyro

Internal: 298
Armor: 600/599
Internal Armor
--------------------------------------
Center Torso 60 60
Center Torso (rear) 60
Right Torso 42 42
Right Torso (rear) 42
Left Torso 42 42
Left Torso (rear) 42
Right Arm 33 66
Left Arm 33 66
Right Leg 42 84
Left Leg 42 84

Weapon Loc Heat
----------------------------------------
Large Laser HD 8
Large Laser CT 8
Snub-Nose PPC LT 10
Snub-Nose PPC RT 10
Heavy PPC RA 15
Heavy PPC LA 15

Equipment Loc
----------------------------------
Standard None
Shoulder Turret RT
Shoulder Turret LT








A 200-ton 'Mech built by an unknown and insane Lyran Dictator who probably would've thought the Death Star was a good idea.

Guaranteed to make a Mechwarrior soil him/herself.
"Woad Raider, kill things today."
Maurer
09/27/17 03:52 AM
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Why even bother arming it with weapons? I would think the impact from a 200 ton mech jump jetting 30 meters in the air and landing is enough to kill off all life on the planet.
"Captain! We're completely surrounded on all sides." - Kiff, Futurama
..."Excellent, then we may attack in any direction." - Zapp Brannigan, Futurama

"A fool fights a war on two fronts; only an idiot defends on one." - Fusilier


Edited by Maurer (09/27/17 03:53 AM)
Retry
09/27/17 10:10 AM
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It's a huge target.
At that speed, with those weapons and without stuff like stealth subsystems to make it somewhat difficult to not miss, anything with higher than 18 range can snipe it with impunity as long as they want to. Or smash it with Artillery.
Karagin
09/27/17 10:18 AM
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I know of some super heavy assault tanks around here that could be a match for it the slow target category...
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
ATN082268
09/27/17 12:12 PM
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Quote:
It's a huge target.
At that speed, with those weapons and without stuff like stealth subsystems to make it somewhat difficult to not miss, anything with higher than 18 range can snipe it with impunity as long as they want to. Or smash it with Artillery.



What concern me the most about this design with its 2/3 movement is the medium range type weapons, at least on the modern battlefield. Also, in the official rules, can over 100 ton 'Mechs jump?
Karagin
09/27/17 12:52 PM
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ATN082268 you are worried about 2/3 movement? Wow...
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
ATN082268
09/27/17 01:32 PM
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Quote:
ATN082268 you are worried about 2/3 movement? Wow...



No. That is not what I said. What I said was, "What concern me the most about this design with its 2/3 movement is the medium range type weapons, at least on the modern battlefield." So a unit with 2/3 movement, when combined with medium range type weapons, can have issues/problems.
Karagin
09/27/17 07:05 PM
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Anything with a 2/3 movement has issues, just like your super tanks, this mech will never get into the fight to do much of anything and as has been pointed out, it can be nullified from long range mainly do to it's slow movement. Its' weapons aren't even an issue.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
ghostrider
09/27/17 09:22 PM
66.74.61.223

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I want to say atn is saying the medium weapons is the issue with the speed, not just the movement. It is to slow to close with most units in the 'normal' weight range.
The unit seems undergunned compared to a few of the 200 ton units posted. Does the engine take that much away from the unit?

Ok, the next statement come from not knowing if there is more crits in the over 100 tons, so if it does, just give me crap.
The issue I can see with the unit is the IS materials. Unless they changed it, the 3 crits per double sink, and the fact 19 are not hidden in the engine, mean 57 critical slots taken.

As pointed out, a unit with the range above 18 could feasibly just walk backwards, and stay out of the range of this mechs weapons. A phoenix hawk with an erll could do so without any issues. Yeah, hitting at long range is a pain, and most of the time, there will be obsticles to deal with, but that is with any combat. And if you went with equal weights, you could have 4 of them firing with another 20 ton unit assisting.

The torso armor placement says alot. I guess you figured it would get shot in the back as often as the front.
Retry
09/27/17 10:51 PM
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There's not exactly *more* crits, the crits that a given equipment is halved and rounded up. So a IS DHS is 3/2=1.5->2 crits, Clan DHS is 2/2=1->1 crits, AC/20 is 10/2=5->5 crits.
Structure+Engine+Cockpit+Gyro takes up like 98 tons by themselves, the spare DHS takes up 25 tons, Armor's like 37 tons. 46 or so tons left for your actual guns. I'm pretty sure Superheavy Battlemechs are completely incompatible with Jump Jets so this design may be illegal.
ATN082268
10/04/17 01:38 PM
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Quote:
As pointed out, a unit with the range above 18 could feasibly just walk backwards, and stay out of the range of this mechs weapons. A phoenix hawk with an erll could do so without any issues.



I've played Battletech for years and only very rarely could I play the range game as you describe YMMV. The vast majority of the scenarios I played in didn't have an unlimited sized battlefield and didn't involve one unit for each side.
Karagin
10/04/17 10:46 PM
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If this mech was in a fight with more then one mech it would die even faster.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
KamikazeJohnson
10/05/17 02:33 AM
142.160.216.118

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As others have stated, the total lack of speed of this thing--and others like it--make it highly impractical to deploy it in typical fashion. It would simply become a target for fast raiders, artillery, and air strikes. But that's where the Jump Jets prove their worth; faster ground units establish a "beach head", and then you orbital drop a couple of these beauties into the thick of the battle to wreak havoc.
Peace is that glorious moment in history when everyone stands around reloading.
--Thomas Jefferson
ghostrider
10/05/17 02:52 AM
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Tonnage was the original idea for balancing battles, then bv.
No hardened armor, so units with lbx-2/5's would be semi effective against this unit. Gauss rifles, especially silver bullet types would cause major issues as well. Even the erlrms would work. Granted, you are looking more for crits then actually taking out the armor.

And as Karagin points out, it is likely to face multiple units per each one of these in the field. Now it is possible to find a nice hole in the field and dish out some damage as units get in range of your weapons, barring artillery being used.
Still no official word on if the over 100 ton units could use jets, but assuming they could, it does help it survive a little better, but not sure if anything can be modified to drop them from orbit. Might be allowed in the newer rules. I don't know.

Evil thought came to mind. Use Savanha Master units against it. 5 tons, would be 40 of them if you go ton for ton battle.
ATN082268
10/05/17 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Tonnage was the original idea for balancing battles, then bv.
No hardened armor, so units with lbx-2/5's would be semi effective against this unit. Gauss rifles, especially silver bullet types would cause major issues as well. Even the erlrms would work. Granted, you are looking more for crits then actually taking out the armor.

And as Karagin points out, it is likely to face multiple units per each one of these in the field. Now it is possible to find a nice hole in the field and dish out some damage as units get in range of your weapons, barring artillery being used.
Still no official word on if the over 100 ton units could use jets, but assuming they could, it does help it survive a little better, but not sure if anything can be modified to drop them from orbit. Might be allowed in the newer rules. I don't know.

Evil thought came to mind. Use Savanha Master units against it. 5 tons, would be 40 of them if you go ton for ton battle.




A force that deployed a 200 ton unit would likely have non-200 ton units as well. And I doubt many people would pick a slow, non-jumping unit with (or with a potential of) a battlefield with a lot of heavy woods and elevation changes, for example. I wouldn't pay much attention to those contrived scenarios where you see a lone 200 ton 'Mech pitted against scores of custom picked and/or made units, as a measure of combat effectiveness for over 100 ton 'Mechs.

Tonnage can work OK in balancing forces but the number, type and skill level pretty much have to be the same. I think Combat Value (CV) came before Battle Value (BV). I believe CV balanced forces based on cost. I've never used it but CV would seem to do OK in the 3025 tech era assuming the number, type and skill level are also about the same. CV seems to seriously break down when expensive tech like XL Engines hits the scene. But people should use whatever forces and way to balance those forces that makes the game fun for them. Besides, most people who have played the game any length of time know when someone is blowing smoke
CrayModerator
10/05/17 06:55 PM
67.8.228.37

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First, yes, super heavies can have jump jets.

Quote:

Evil thought came to mind. Use Savanha Master units against it. 5 tons, would be 40 of them if you go ton for ton battle.



Since super heavies are a perennial favorite in my group's quick pick-up games, I can confirm that lighter units have a surprisingly good chance against super heavies. We tried Savannah Masters-vs-Super Heavies once, but the player lost about half his force to skidding off the map and it was really boring moving dozens of Savannah Masters each round.

Super heavies have an odd dynamic. Their performance doesn't exactly continue the trend set from going from heavy to assault 'Mechs. The following factors stand out:

1) Everybody unloads on super heavies. In the semi-campaign scenarios, all the regular units opposing the super heavy crap themselves trying to KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! KILL IT! DEAR GOD KILL IT BEFORE IT SITS ON US! Against other super heavies...well, you're unloading huge amounts of firepower. The end result is the same: lots of piloting skill checks for 20+ damage per turn. I'd say about half my super heavies die from pilot injuries due to repeating falls and ammo explosions that don't wreck the tough machines.

2) It might be particular to my group, which has some players obsessed with Streak SRMs, but there are a lot of head hits from crit finding weapons. Super heavies just last so long in the game that there seem to be more than the usual number of head hits. This leads to more pilot injuries and pilot death, faster than against more fragile units.

3) We haven't bothered with superheavies light enough to move 3/5, so everyone uses 2/3 (or 2/3/2, or 2/3/3) movement. I should say, "movement," with quotes indicating heavy sarcasm. Basically, there's a little waddling in the beginning until people reach advantageous range bands for their weapons (medium is fine) and then it turns into a duel between stationary turrets claiming to be 'Mechs. No one wants to deal with the target number penalties of further movement, unless there's an opportunity for melee combat. A few super heavy brawls have to be seen to be believed. (I have fond memories of pushing an opposing super heavy off a cliff into level 2 water, and executing a 200-ton DFA onto an Atlas.)

Anyway, unlike normal 'Mech combat, piloting skills become more important than gunnery; there's a lot of pilot death without decapitation; and super heavies tend to act like semi-mobile turrets.

Further, the particular super heavy vulnerability to crit finders (or, I should say, "head finders") like Streaks and LBX cluster, gives a window of opportunity to fast medium units. One of the players in my group loves his 6/9/6 50-ton and 5/8/8 55-ton chassis, which he loads down with one medium-heavy weapon (ER PPC or X-Pulse Large Laser) and as many Streak-2s as he can stuff on board. These little monsters pop around like weasels on crystal meth, spamming super heavies with missiles until they collapse from pilot death. They're tough enough to survive stray hits, too, moreso than light 'Mechs. They have an advantage over heavies and assaults, which get too slow to have much in the way of movement-based to-hit penalties.

These speedy medium anti-superheavy 'Mechs have led me to stuff my super heavy designs with AMSs and Angel ECM suites to try to degrade their missile swarms.

Obviously, the players who use medium 'Mechs to kill a super heavy 'Mech love to gloat about it.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
l0rDn0o8sKiLlZ
10/06/17 12:18 AM
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Tell me how, precisely and in no uncertain terms, would you know what weasels on crystal meth are like?
"Woad Raider, kill things today."
ATN082268
10/06/17 09:38 AM
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<Snip Post>

Quote:
First, yes, super heavies can have jump jets.



Thank you for the clarification. It has been a bit since I looked at the rules and I wasn't sure myself.

Quote:
2) It might be particular to my group, which has some players obsessed with Streak SRMs, but there are a lot of head hits from crit finding weapons. Super heavies just last so long in the game that there seem to be more than the usual number of head hits. This leads to more pilot injuries and pilot death, faster than against more fragile units.

Further, the particular super heavy vulnerability to crit finders (or, I should say, "head finders") like Streaks and LBX cluster, gives a window of opportunity to fast medium units. One of the players in my group loves his 6/9/6 50-ton and 5/8/8 55-ton chassis, which he loads down with one medium-heavy weapon (ER PPC or X-Pulse Large Laser) and as many Streak-2s as he can stuff on board. These little monsters pop around like weasels on crystal meth, spamming super heavies with missiles until they collapse from pilot death. They're tough enough to survive stray hits, too, moreso than light 'Mechs. They have an advantage over heavies and assaults, which get too slow to have much in the way of movement-based to-hit penalties.

These speedy medium anti-superheavy 'Mechs have led me to stuff my super heavy designs with AMSs and Angel ECM suites to try to degrade their missile swarms.

Obviously, the players who use medium 'Mechs to kill a super heavy 'Mech love to gloat about it.



I appreciate the insight into Super Heavy 'Mechs. This lead me to another question: Can Super Heavy 'Mechs use shields? If so, that would help negate a lot of the crit finder type weapons

Edit: I don't think shields can protect the head, so even if Super Heavy 'Mechs can use them, they aren't as useful as I originally thought
Karagin
10/06/17 10:55 AM
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Shields...they can only take so much damage and even then it is not going to do anything but have the mech lose out on using it's arm weapons where the shield is at, unless the changed the rules, and so the trade off for shields is still there. Not much is going to fix the Super Heavies mainly because of their slow movement and the fact that no sane player is going to allow one of these things to have free reign in a battle.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Retry
10/06/17 02:35 PM
64.189.132.158

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Shame there's no Superheavy torso cockpit option for Superheavy Battlemechs. If anything that wasn't one of my Nephilidaes could have used torso cockpits, it's Superheavy Battlemechs.

Dreams of a 200-ton Super Nephilidae wilts
CrayModerator
10/06/17 05:05 PM
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Quote:
Shields...they can only take so much damage and even then it is not going to do anything but have the mech lose out on using it's arm weapons where the shield is at



I haven't tried shields on a super heavy. Thanks for the idea!
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
CrayModerator
10/06/17 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Tell me how, precisely and in no uncertain terms, would you know what weasels on crystal meth are like?



Alcohol, unlocked pet store, and crystal meth = regrets and PETA hit men.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
ghostrider
10/06/17 11:38 PM
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where to you think the game whack a mole came from?
Sorry. Bad joke.

Now as for your savanha master drivers. You used that small of a board?
Or did they never realize to slow down before making a turn?

Still. You could come up with something like the variants of the J. edgar hover tanks. The lrm/triple laser turreted versions. Granted, you would dramatically decrease the numbers of units you would have, but it still makes the point. I would think it is better to brag a lowly 20-25 ton tank killed the superheavy, even over meduim mechs.

And who knows. Maybe some of the chat here might bring about some ideas, or kill them in the next rule update.
l0rDn0o8sKiLlZ
10/07/17 12:10 AM
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Wow. My boredom sure sparked quite the conversation.

To think this hot mess was inspired by me thinking of some communist generalissimo thinking to themselves, "I should get a BattleMech." Then having this 200-ton monstrosity built in their image so they could drop onto basically won battles and just Heavy PPC the stuffing out of things.

Still, I'm shocked it sparked so much conversation.

As an aside, does anyone play MegaMEK? I wanted to try BattleTech sometime despite not owning any rule books.
"Woad Raider, kill things today."
ATN082268
10/10/17 09:41 AM
69.128.58.222

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Quote:
Quote:
Shields...they can only take so much damage and even then it is not going to do anything but have the mech lose out on using it's arm weapons where the shield is at



I haven't tried shields on a super heavy. Thanks for the idea!




Based on your recommendations Cray, I came up with the Gigantor III
AmaroqStarwind
04/07/18 02:46 AM
99.203.27.127

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Dividing the Engine Rating by 25 gives you 16... Meaning only 16 of those Double Heat Sinks can be mounted in the engine, the other 19 need to be allocated Critical Slots.

A Large XXL engine would take up half as many Critical Slots on a SuperHeavy (3 CT, 3 LT, 3 RT) as it would in any other mech (6 CT, 6 LT, 6 RT), and would allow you to go up to rating 500 (but in a 200-ton mech, this still wouldn't increase your movement speed unless you round up). This would allow you to cram 20 of those Double Heat Sinks inside the engine, and you'd only have 15 Double Heat Sinks to find Critical Slots for.

All components in a SuperHeavy BattleMech (besides anything with the word SuperHeavy in it) will take up half as many Critical Slots (rounded up) as it would in a normal BattleMech. This also means that for equipment that normally only occupies a single Critical Slot (such as a Small Laser), now two such components can occupy a single Critical Slot. However, if that slot is hit then both components are destroyed. (Note: Armored Components are not allowed in SuperHeavy mechs.)

Fractional Accounting is also a good idea, because your SuperHeavy is already not Tournament Legal (no SuperHeavy is tournament legal, AFAIK). Heavy Ferro-Fibrous Armor and Superheavy Endo Steel can save you a lot of weight also.
Tail High.
Retry
04/07/18 10:34 AM
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Quote:
First, yes, super heavies can have jump jets.





Since this got bumped and I actually have a source available, might as well put in my 2 C-Bills.

Unless I-Ops got errata'd, Superheavies cannot mount jump jets. Pg.162 Interstellar Operations:

Determine Jump Jets (or Underwater Maneuvering Units):
The challenges of supporting and balancing a superheavy ’Mech as
it stands, walks, or runs have proven so significant that no jump jet
systems have been devised yet that are capable of safely providing
Jump MP for these machines. Superheavy ’Mechs thus may not
mount jump jets, improved jump jets, jump boosters, or partial wings
of any type.


Quote:
Edit: I don't think shields can protect the head, so even if Super Heavy 'Mechs can use them, they aren't as useful as I originally thought



Shields protect the head if they're in active defense mode.

Of course, you'll lose MP for the bigger ones, and a 3/5 mover would have to make do with a small shield (if it uses any at all), but it's a thing.

Ferro-Lamellor armor would help if you're an IS powerhouse that happens to have access to some, maybe due to dealings with clan Diamond Shark. It reduces LB-X type attacks down to 0 (1 damage -1), and attacks reduced to 0 can't inflict critical hits or pilot damage even if they hit the head. It won't help save the pilots from Cray's streak boats, but it's another option.

Quote:
Shields...they can only take so much damage and even then it is not going to do anything but have the mech lose out on using it's arm weapons where the shield is at, unless the changed the rules, and so the trade off for shields is still there. Not much is going to fix the Super Heavies mainly because of their slow movement and the fact that no sane player is going to allow one of these things to have free reign in a battle.



The opposite side torso and arm have free reign even in active defense mode, so simply designing the superheavy battlemech smartly will negate that disadvantage and allow for full barrages in active defense mode.

Quote:
This also means that for equipment that normally only occupies a single Critical Slot (such as a Small Laser), now two such components can occupy a single Critical Slot.


roundup(1crit/2)=1, so small and medium lasers can't double up. Ammo and Heat Sinks are the only two things that can be doubled up like described according to Interstellar Operations Pg.163. Still, unless you mount 50 IS DHS or something silly like that, you're probably never going to be short on crit space in a Superheavy.
AmaroqStarwind
04/07/18 11:01 AM
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Welp! I made a goof. Large engines occupy 8 slots in the Center Torso, not 6 (meaning it would occupy 4 slots in the Center Torso of a SuperHeavy). Actually, that makes me wonder... Would a 500-rated Engine actually be able to push a SuperHeavy above 2/3 Movement under any circumstances? Technically, it would probably end up a 2.5/3.75, which would end up being rounded to 3/4, but BattleTech unfortunately rounds down rather than up if you use an oversized engine.

With Clan Sea Fox dealings, I wonder what other Clan tech somebody could get their hands on. 15-damage ER-PPCs perhaps?

Also, I strongly feel that Ferro-Lamellor is overpowered... Not even LRMs or a HAG can bust it. However, I do suppose it would be handy, especially on the head. (Patchwork Armor, hurray!)
Tail High.
Retry
04/07/18 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Also, I strongly feel that Ferro-Lamellor is overpowered... Not even LRMs or a HAG can bust it. However, I do suppose it would be handy, especially on the head. (Patchwork Armor, hurray!)



LRMs and HAGs hit in 5 point clusters, so they do deal damage to FL. In fact, they're one of the better weapons to do so outside of specialized stuff like Re-Engineered Lasers or Acid SRM ammo.
Not sure if Patchwork FL works on the head since you need the crits to mount them there, and since the Head has like 1 free crit...
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