tmr01750195
12/14/17 06:07 PM
76.121.197.44
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Hello all,
On BT TechManual PDF CAT 35002 2007-2013 The Topps Company, Inc. Corrected Third Printing Published by Catalyst Game Lab under Step 1: Calculate Defensive Battle Rating right column are direction for handling explosive ammunition and Gauss weapons, pp 302-303 there are two instructions specifically for Clan Mechs and four instructions with the entry of CASE*.
Page 303: The requirements with asterisks (*) has the following note: "* – It is assumed Clan ’Mechs have CASE installed. If the design specifically did not pay the C-bill cost to install CASE then treat a Clan-built ’Mech as an Inner Sphere ’Mech for the purpose of these calculations."
The Asterisk (*) note appears to confirm the details provided on TM p. 210 that Clan units, with the exception of ProtoMechs, are presumed to automatically fitted with CASE in all location that store explosive ammo or explosive equipment (such as Gauss Weapons).
I do not have access to Clan Mechs to see how using or not using CASE alters the BV calculation.
If someone can spare the time and please provide an example I would greatly appreciate the help?
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ghostrider
12/15/17 02:02 AM
66.74.61.223
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Anything made by the clans use clan case in them. I have not heard of any of those mechs missing the case, even the second line mechs, or garrison mechs.
The omnis have the pods that automatically have case in them.
The wiki here has most of the mechs with the exception of the brand new ones, as they are not officially allowed to be distributed by any but the company.
They should have the modle variants under mech names, like the clans version of the highlander. Normally they have the IIc at the end of the name. Such as the rifleman IIc.
That is roman numeral 2. Looks like a small L.
Any of the omnis would be a good start, as the rifleman is all energy weapons for the 2c.
Advanced versions use ammo.
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tmr01750195
12/15/17 11:07 AM
76.121.197.44
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Hello ghostrider,
Quote:
Anything made by the clans use clan case in them. I have not heard of any of those mechs missing the case, even the second line mechs, or garrison mechs.
The omnis have the pods that automatically have case in them.
The wiki here has most of the mechs with the exception of the brand new ones, as they are not officially allowed to be distributed by any but the company.
They should have the modle variants under mech names, like the clans version of the highlander. Normally they have the IIc at the end of the name. Such as the rifleman IIc.
That is roman numeral 2. Looks like a small L.
Any of the omnis would be a good start, as the rifleman is all energy weapons for the 2c.
Advanced versions use ammo.
Thank you for the information and my look through the designs was not a success at locating Clan designs showing a cost break down to see if the TM rule about cost being required to avoid the negative modifiers being applied.
Looking at the Explosive Ammo/Weapon the 15 point explosive ammo and 1 point Gauss Cannon instructions on pp. 302-303 for the Clans have me a bit confused considering that their units supposedly have CASE.
Page 302: 15 points per critical space of explosive ammo in the center torso, legs or head (Clan ’Mech)
Page 303: 1 point per Gauss weapon critical space in the center torso, legs or head (Clan ’Mech)
If Clan Mech's have CASE installed then the above two rules should only apply to units without CASE right?
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ghostrider
12/15/17 03:51 PM
66.74.61.223
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The wiki on this sight has prices for the mechs, though I don't know if that is base model or the prime configuration.
The last set of rules I have is the battle master rules, which says the damage is done to the location, and any additional damage is wasted if all the section is destroyed.
Not sure how they changed it in later rule editions. From the looks of it, they changed this in later editions. The change looks to be how much damage the explosion does to internals from the examples you have shown.
Case only prevents the damage from going in, last I knew. It could destroy the section is it in without issues.
Maybe one of the others could clarify this better.
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tmr01750195
12/16/17 11:16 AM
76.121.197.44
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Hello again ghostrider,
Quote:
The wiki on this sight has prices for the mechs, though I don't know if that is base model or the prime configuration.
I've checked a number of them out but without a cost break down on the Clan ones I have no way to tell if the CASE cost is there per the Catalyst Game Labs TM rules. Another issue is that based on comments made on the forum I have no way of confirming if the Clan Mechs Defensive Battle Rating includes the penalties for explosive ammo and/or weapons.
Quote:
The last set of rules I have is the battle master rules, which says the damage is done to the location, and any additional damage is wasted if all the section is destroyed.
Not sure how they changed it in later rule editions. From the looks of it, they changed this in later editions. The change looks to be how much damage the explosion does to internals from the examples you have shown.
Case only prevents the damage from going in, last I knew. It could destroy the section is it in without issues.
The latest Catalyst Game Labs rules agree that exploding ammo and/or weapon using CASE do not transfer excess damage to an additional internal structure location.
Quote:
Maybe one of the others could clarify this better.
Thank you again for your efforts on my behalf and I'm hoping someone else can provide clarification too.
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Rajaat99
12/16/17 04:54 PM
76.27.89.112
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Case is 50,000 c-bills according to the Tech Manual. It doesn't seem to matter if it's clan or IS. Case does not have a set BV, it prevents defensive BV from being decreased based on ammunition that is able to explode. So, if all of your ammo is in one location and case is protecting it, then it doesn't hurt your BV.
For this example, I will ignore the machine gun ammo, because I don't know where it's stored.
A Timber Wolf have a BV of 2,737 with 1 ton of LRM 20 ammo in each side torso and case in each torso.
A Timber Wolf have a BV of 2,707 with 1 ton of LRM 20 ammo in each side torso and no case.
Now, if the Timber Wolf had an additional ton of LRM20 ammo is each side torso, the BV would not change if it had case, but would decrease by an additional 30 without it.
I believe this is correct according to the Tech Manual (35002), I don't know which printing. If I'm wrong, please correct me.
Edited for clarification.
"You are not alone among strangers, a way has been chosen."
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tmr01750195
12/17/17 12:48 AM
76.121.197.44
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Hello Rajaat99,
Quote:
Case is 50,000 c-bills according to the Tech Manual. It doesn't seem to matter if it's clan or IS. Case does not have a set BV, it prevents defensive BV from being decreased based on ammunition that is able to explode. So, if all of your ammo is in one location and case is protecting it, then it doesn't hurt your BV.
For this example, I will ignore the machine gun ammo, because I don't know where it's stored.
A Timber Wolf have a BV of 2,737 with 1 ton of LRM 20 ammo in each side torso and case in each torso.
A Timber Wolf have a BV of 2,707 with 1 ton of LRM 20 ammo in each side torso and no case.
Now, if the Timber Wolf had an additional ton of LRM20 ammo is each side torso, the BV would not change if it had case, but would decrease by an additional 30 without it.
I believe this is correct according to the Tech Manual (35002), I don't know which printing. If I'm wrong, please correct me.
Edited for clarification.
Thank you for the reply and you are correct that CASE has a cost of 50,000 C-bills for both Clan and Inner Sphere units. Your example does agree with what I have determined how BV is calculated at this point and indicates I am on the right track.
The instructions for calculating the Defensive Rating on p. 303 of BT TechManual PDF CAT 35002 2007-2013 The Topps Company, Inc. Corrected Third Printing Published by Catalyst Game Lab has the following note which:
"* – It is assumed Clan ’Mechs have CASE installed. If the design specifically did not pay the C-bill cost to install CASE then treat a Clan-built ’Mech as an Inner Sphere ’Mech for the purpose of these calculations."
Since I do not have the official HeavyMetal Design software and with a comment against using another design application I can download means I can not verify if Clan units are paying the 50,000 C-bill cost for CASE.
This leads to another question since in Inner Sphere units each CASE system installed costs 50,000 C-bills.
Would Clan units have to pay 50,000 C-bills for each ton of ammo or weapon with the potential to explode?
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ghostrider
12/17/17 04:02 AM
66.74.61.223
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To make this clear. There is no mandatory software needed to post to the board. Use what every program you want. Just make sure it doesn't have a virus.
There is a preferred way of presenting this, but it is not mandatory.
Now with that said.
I do not think case is per ammo, but it is per location. So having multiple ammo bins in one location means you only have one case. Not the same number as ammo bins.
A side note.
All the fluff for clans suggest they do not concern themselves with how much a unit costs, as long as it is effective. Atleast in the books I do have. I don't know if that has changed in the newer books. I doubt it, since the clans have their way of doing things, and they don't like to waste resources.
Now if they have come out with a new source of information on the clans and their manufacturing that does with finances, it would be nice to see where you can find that out.
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tmr01750195
12/17/17 02:55 PM
76.121.197.44
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Hello ghostrider,
Quote:
To make this clear. There is no mandatory software needed to post to the board. Use what every program you want. Just make sure it doesn't have a virus.
There is a preferred way of presenting this, but it is not mandatory.
Now with that said.
Yes, the design forum does have suggested four formats for posting a technical readout. One readout is from the "official" BT Heavy Metal design programs and two from unofficial software programs. One of the two remaining programs has been deemed not valid, while the other program has proven to be very unfriendly when I tried to use it and gave up. The preferred format template appears to be the one established by FASA.
The readouts I have submitted have been done using the template and manually inserting the information using note pad. Once the information has been filled in I copy the document and make the adjustments.
Quote:
I do not think case is per ammo, but it is per location. So having multiple ammo bins in one location means you only have one case. Not the same number as ammo bins.
I do not have any of the Catalyst Game Labs Technical Readouts to check out to see how CASE is handled. However, I do have the FASA books which list in the Weapons and Ammo section CASE for each type of Ammo. FASA 8614 1990 BT TRO 3050 pp. 12-13 has the Dasher (Fire Moth) configurations as follows
Primary: SRM 6; Ammo (SRM) 14; CASE and SRM 4; Ammo (25); CASE
Configuration A: AMS; Ammo (AM) 24; CASE and Streak SRM 4; Ammo (Streak) 25; CASE
Configuration B: Machine Gun; Ammo (MG) 100
Configuration C: LRM 5; Ammo (LRM) 24; CASE, LRM 5; Ammo (LRM) 24; CASE, AMS; Configuration D: 5 ER Med. Lasers
None of the rules I have looked at in Catalyst Game Labs' material has mentioned any change from FASA. Of course since I only have FanPro/WK Games BT Master Rules, Combat Equipment, AT2 Revised, and Maximum Tech Revised one of their other books may have changed the rules.
Quote:
A side note.
All the fluff for clans suggest they do not concern themselves with how much a unit costs, as long as it is effective. Atleast in the books I do have. I don't know if that has changed in the newer books. I doubt it, since the clans have their way of doing things, and they don't like to waste resources.
Now if they have come out with a new source of information on the clans and their manufacturing that does with finances, it would be nice to see where you can find that out.
The instructions in BT TechManual PDF CAT 35002 2007-2013 The Topps Company, Inc. Corrected Third Printing Published by Catalyst Game Lab do not appear to distinguish between Clan and Inner Sphere units when calculating cost. IIRC HeavyMetal Pro calculates the cost of both the Clan and Inner Sphere Mechs.
As indicated TM p. 303 does indicate that cost is calculated for Clan units:
Page 303: The requirements with asterisks (*) has the following note: "* – It is assumed Clan ’Mechs have CASE installed. If the design specifically did not pay the C-bill cost to install CASE then treat a Clan-built ’Mech as an Inner Sphere ’Mech for the purpose of these calculations. "
Of course the cost of a Clan unit is based on what the Inner Sphere estimates the cost to be.
Thank you for the feedback.
Edited by tmr01750195 (12/17/17 02:57 PM)
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ghostrider
12/17/17 08:46 PM
66.74.61.223
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The Firemoth example isn't really what I was talking about.
All the ammo is in different locations. So each location with ammo has it.
Check out the maddog/vulture mech. The A configuration has multiple tons of ammo in one location.
The madcat/timberwolf mech prime has two different types of ammos in the right torso. Lrm 20 and mg. That would be a good one to see if it is required per ammo type.
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tmr01750195
12/18/17 12:48 AM
76.121.197.44
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Hello again ghostrider,
Quote:
The Firemoth example isn't really what I was talking about.
All the ammo is in different locations. So each location with ammo has it.
Check out the maddog/vulture mech. The A configuration has multiple tons of ammo in one location.
The madcat/timberwolf mech prime has two different types of ammos in the right torso. Lrm 20 and mg. That would be a good one to see if it is required per ammo type.
Thank-you for another reply and the Clan does appear to put all ammo in one CASE compartment when they are in the same location.
Storing the ammo for different weapons in the same CASE compartment means that when the location takes a hit all the stored ammo blows out the armor panels on the Mechs back. If the weapons are still functions they don't have ammo.
So far my efforts using a spreadsheet to enter everything needed to calculate BV and Cost has failed to come close to the values found on the Sarna BT Wiki. Of course I rarely match the cost of the official designs in any of the games I have design systems for.
Looks like I'm not up to Clan standards on this one and I still appear to be no closer to figuring out the BV calculations.
Thank you again for the help.
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Rajaat99
12/18/17 01:19 PM
76.27.89.112
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On page 210 of the Tech Manual, it says CASE protects a location. "When heat or damage triggers an ammunition explosion in a CASE-protected location,.."
So, it would appear CASE protects a location, no matter how much ammo is stored there. I think that answers your question.
"You are not alone among strangers, a way has been chosen."
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tmr01750195
12/18/17 05:17 PM
76.121.197.44
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Hello Rajaat99,
Quote:
On page 210 of the Tech Manual, it says CASE protects a location. "When heat or damage triggers an ammunition explosion in a CASE-protected location,.."
So, it would appear CASE protects a location, no matter how much ammo is stored there. I think that answers your question.
The closest to the BT CASE I can think of is the armored ammo storage magazine on a M1 Abrams MBT has blast doors in the turret and blow-out panels to direct the blast of an ammo explosion from the crew compartment. When the magazine goes boom the Abram's main gun has no purpose other than becoming a large moving target. So if the ammo for all the Mech's weapons are in the same CASE protected magazine any hit that results in an ammo explosion that does not also knock out the weapons results in them taking up space.
One of the items I've noticed about the rules is that the more times they are revised the more details get lost. The best detail CASE can be found in FASA 8613 TRO 2750 and FASA 8614 TRO 3050 on p. 221.
In TRO 2750 the CASE system is described as consisting of layered Ferro-Fibrous plates along five of the six sides of the storage compartment. TRO 3050 p. 221 skips the fluff about Ferro-Fibrous plates. Both books agree that the "When ammo explodes in a section with CASE, the force of the explosion blows out specially designed panels and armor, directing the main force of the explosion away from the Mech's vital components, such as the cockpit or the engine."
"Game Notes:
All Clan weapons pods containing ammo-fed weapons automatically have CASE at no cost in tonnage or critical spaces. Inner Sphere Mechs and vehicles can have CASE systems built in, but AeroSpace Fighters may not carry CASE systems due to the basic frailty of typical aircraft systems. Inner Sphere Mechs can carry CASE in the torso but not the arms; Clan Mechs have no such restrictions.
An Inner Sphere CASE requires one critical space and weighs half a ton. Hits on the CASE critical space have no effect and should be re-rolled.
If ammo in a CASE-equipped section explodes, it does damage to the weapons, internal structure, and equipment mounted there normally. Apply excess damage to the rear armor of the section. Any remaining damage is not applied anywhere. Remember that the loss of all internal structure in a side torso renders the corresponding useless. Excess damage in an arm equipped with CASE destroys that arm's armor. In a vehicle, the CASE system blows out the back armor; the vehicle itself is crippled, but the crew members and passengers survive the explosion.
If an ammo explosion passes into a section that has CASE, the internal structure takes damage as normal and then all excess damage is blown out the back section. This might occur if an Inner Sphere Mech had an ammo explosion and damage transferred to a side torso equipped with CASE."
FanPro/WKGames 35000 2001-2004 Classic BattleTech Master Rules pp. 135-136 appears to be a modified version of the material from FASA 8614 TRO 3050. The modification also mention that "or any explosive component, such as a Gauss rifle".
With all the real world example of the M1 Abrams main gun round ammo storage having blow-out panels and the earlier rules about CASE available my understanding has been that that each Clan weapon that uses ammo has a CASE system built-in. Inner Sphere each ammo magazine requires a CASE system which requires 1 critical space, weighs 0.5 tons, at a cost of 50,000 C-bills. The Clan CASE system appeared to have the critical space, tons, and cost subsumed into the cost of the weapon.
If anyone is using HeavyMetal Pro would it be possible to confirm if Clan Mechs include CASE cost and that no Defensive Battle Rating penalties are incurred when they carry explosive ammo or a Gauss cannon please?
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Rajaat99
12/18/17 10:35 PM
76.27.89.112
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That's awesome that Abrams tanks have CASE, but I don't think it works the same way in Battletech. If I'm reading your analysis correctly, you believe that CASE is added per ammo ton, or ammo type. Is that correct?
Heavy Metal and other mech design programs I've seen will not allow you to remove CASE from a clan mech, but it automatically adds in the 50k c-bill cost for the location.
"You are not alone among strangers, a way has been chosen."
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tmr01750195
12/19/17 01:56 PM
76.121.197.44
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Hello Rajaat99
Quote:
That's awesome that Abrams tanks have CASE, but I don't think it works the same way in Battletech.
FASA, FanPro/WKGames, and Catalyst Game Labs indicates that CASE directs ammo explosions away from vital areas like the engine Mech cockpit and crew/ passenger compartments. In FASA TRO 2750 CASE is described as having five sides reinforced with armor plates that direct the blast of exploding ammo towards the rear of the Mech/vehicle. The area that the blast is directed to is the ammo loading doors which appear to be part of the blowout panels under the rear armor.
BT TechManual PDF CAT 35002 2007-2013 The Topps Company, Inc. Corrected Third Printing Published by Catalyst Game Lab p. 210 indicates that "One of the oldest examples of so-called “lost” technologies, CASE (as we know it today) actually predates the Star League by nearly a hundred years. Indeed, its earliest progenitors can be traced back even farther."
The M1 Abrams main gun armored ammo compartment has a blast door in the turret protecting the crew, four sides have armor protection and the IIRC the top has the blowout panels. When the ammo explodes the blast is directed up blowing out the panels taking the main gun off line.
To me the BT CASE looks very much like and functions like an updated version of the system used on the M1 Abrams.
Using the search criteria of M1 Abrams in BattleTech I found discussion on a Sarna and Catalyst Game Labs BattleTech forums that had specifications
On the Sarna the M1 Abrams is located at http://www.sarna.net/forums/showflat.php/Cat/4/Number/174153/Main/174137 unfortunately I could not find anything that had one with CASE.
On the Catalyst Game Labs BattleTech the M1 Abrams has specification with one that has CASE located at. http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=52374.0
HeavyMetal forums has the following link to a M1 Abrams discussion http://forums.heavymetalpro.com/viewtopic.php?t=17855. However the specification do not have CASE which I think is due to being unavailable due to the Level requirements.
Quote:
If I'm reading your analysis correctly, you believe that CASE is added per ammo ton, or ammo type. Is that correct?
AC weapons all require 1 ton of ammo regardless of type selected per BT TechManual PDF CAT 35002 2007-2013 The Topps Company, Inc. Corrected Third Printing Published by Catalyst Game Lab.
In a Clan unit using the material from FASA TRO 3050 it suggests the AC 2, feed system, and CASE are built as a single unit all ammo is housed by the CASE compartment. Any results that cause an ammo explosion would take out all the ammo.
Crud, looking at the FASA TRO 3050 Clan OmniMechs primary configuration's fixed weapons appear to stow all ammo in the same CASE. Once again I appear to have made another error in the design rules. Thank you and ghostrider for getting me on the right path.
An Inner Sphere unit on the other hand appears to be more flexible since CASE is added separately from the weapon by paying for additional space, weight, and cost per system installed. Instead of allocating all ammo to one CASE the designer could use two separate CASE systems or just one like a Clan unit.
Quote:
Heavy Metal and other mech design programs I've seen will not allow you to remove CASE from a clan mech, but it automatically adds in the 50k c-bill cost for the location.
Thank you for the information that Heavy Metal design software does not allow Clan units to be built without CASE.
The Sarna Design forum list two other design application. My attempt at using Solaris Skunkwerks has not panned out since I am having trouble with the user interface. The other application mentioned is MegaMek Lab which I have been able to play with. From what I can tell it does not include the cost of the CASE or list it on the TRO preview, cost breakdown, or weight breakdown. However, the BV breakdown Clan units do not have an Explosive Weapons/Equipment Penalty which does indicate they have CASE.
Thank you again for your help.
In FASA Clan units with CASE list them in the Weapons and Ammo section of the TRO. MegaMek Lab's TRO preview does not show CASE.
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