Ship Quarters

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Rajaat99
12/15/17 01:11 PM
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I'm a bit ignorant when it comes to what the different types of quarters contain and I couldn't find it in Aerotech 2. What's the difference between crew and 2nd class passengers? Is the cost for quarters, or the number of people? If it's the number of people, what does a second class passenger get for 7 tons?
Thank you to anyone who can clear it up for me.
"You are not alone among strangers, a way has been chosen."
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
12/16/17 06:35 AM
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The answer to your first question, there is none they are the same.

As to your second question, no one knows as the authors of the game never really bothered to explain as they did not think it was relevant to play the game.

Each level of quarters is for one person. So that is 5, 7 or 10 tons to carry one person in the ship.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

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Rajaat99
12/16/17 10:01 AM
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Wow, the tonnage seems a bit much for just one person and their luggage. I may have to house rule it.

Thanks for clearing that up for me though, I appreciate it.

Actually, I noticed the small craft ST-46 cheats and has a bay for 8 passengers weighing just 8 tons. Seems like some official source didn't care for the weight of passengers either.
"You are not alone among strangers, a way has been chosen."
CrayModerator
12/16/17 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Wow, the tonnage seems a bit much for just one person and their luggage. I may have to house rule it.



It's not just tonnage for the person and their luggage. Quarters address every facility on a ship for a person: every cubic meter of air (those add up fast - BT DropShips may have hundreds of tons of air in them); every life support system; laundry facilities; the structural mass of the quarters; facilities on a grav deck; gyms; the water budget in the life support system for each person (a long shower can cycle through a metric ton of water); the ship's cafeteria; temperature regulation systems that work from inside the orbit of Mercury to beyond Pluto; etc.

The infantry bays give utterly minimal masses for personnel on spaceship, but their usage of consumables (air, water, etc.) is so high that after more than a 6-8 weeks in space it's more weight efficient to give each infantryman a steerage-class quarters. Steerage, standard, and luxury/officer quarters have much better life support recycling, as well as better facilities throughout the rest of the ship (see above: cafeteria, gym, laundry, etc.)
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
tmr01750195
12/16/17 10:54 AM
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Hello Rajaat99,

Quote:
I'm a bit ignorant when it comes to what the different types of quarters contain and I couldn't find it in Aerotech 2.



The sources for the answers being provided are based on the material found in

A. FanPro/WKGames 35011 2004 AeroTech 2 Revised Edition p. 85

B. BT TechManual PDF CAT 35002 2007-2013 The Topps Company, Inc. Corrected Third Printing Published by Catalyst Game Labs pp. 237 & 239

Quote:
What's the difference between crew and 2nd class passengers?



In my opinion one difference is that passengers pay for their quarters while the crew in theory do not pay. Of course as His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey stated the authors left the details out.

[quoted]....., what does a second class passenger get for 7 tons?



Source B p. 236

"Roughly analogous to hotel accommodations, quarters come in a variety of basic styles, from the communal bunk bed set-up for crew quarters and the cramped basics of passenger steerage to more luxurious and roomy first- and second-class suites."

The above information is for civilian and not military units in my opinion.

I am retired United States Navy so I have a small issue with the details provided by Crystal Game Labs', and a number of other games for that matter, details for crew quarters on military hulls.

On the four submarines I served on the Captain's and Executive Officer's staterooms had a single bunk that doubled as a couch, a desk, a fold down stainless steel sink, and some storage. There was a shared head, bathroom, linking their staterooms with a fixed stainless steel sink, stainless steel toilet, and a shower stall with a door.

Three officers shared one stateroom/bunk room that had three lockers, three bunks, three fold up desks, and one fold down sink. They shared a head that had three of everything needed in a bathroom.

The Chiefs Quarters had a small common area with a bunk room to either side with, IIRC, and one or two heads with four of everything.

The majority of the crew slept in berthing area or compartment that had stacks of one to three bunks. Depending on the number of bunks there would be a head that had a varying number of showers, sinks, and toilets.

Most of the bunks had a storage in an area below the bunk pan that was hinged.

IIRC the newest SSBNs broke the crew have bunk rooms with four bunks per space.

On the surface ship I was on the Captain, Executive Officer, and Department heads had separate staterooms with private heads. The more junior the officer up to four shared a stateroom and heads. Chiefs again had separate berthing with heads. The rest of the crew where again in berthing area or compartment that had stacks of one to five or six bunks. Depending on the number of bunks there would be a head that had a varying number of showers, sinks, and toilets.
Rajaat99
12/16/17 04:21 PM
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Excellent information, thank you Mike and tmr01750195.
I didn't think about air weight, but I wish the construction rules were more detailed. If I don't want a cafeteria or gym on my ship, I shouldn't be forced to have them. Maybe I want a cheap "no-frills" ship with low morale. Eh, I'll have to think about it a bit more.
"You are not alone among strangers, a way has been chosen."
ghostrider
12/16/17 04:51 PM
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This particular conversation was had a short while back. It seemed like more tonnage to the rooms then necessary. Wiether it is or not hasn't been answered to satisfaction yet. Well not to me anyways.

Donkey based some house rules on someone elses suggestions, I want to say akira. They are in the ship design section, with a few ships he put up that uses those house rules. Check them out and see if they work for you.
tmr01750195
12/17/17 01:03 AM
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Hello Rajaat99,

You are welcome for any help, at least I hope I'm helping, in the way of information I can dig up up.

Quote:
Excellent information, thank you Mike and tmr01750195.
I didn't think about air weight, but I wish the construction rules were more detailed. If I don't want a cafeteria or gym on my ship, I shouldn't be forced to have them. Maybe I want a cheap "no-frills" ship with low morale. Eh, I'll have to think about it a bit more.



There are a a number of games that have detailed design systems. One of the more generic ones is published by Steve Jackson Games titled 'Vehicles'. FFE Traveller also has detailed design sequences.

The USN has a publication for shipboard habitability that provides rules on how much space personnel get as well as how many head fixtures, drinking fountains, and other items needed. I used to have the link, but now I can not find it.
CrayModerator
12/17/17 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Excellent information, thank you Mike and tmr01750195.
I didn't think about air weight, but I wish the construction rules were more detailed.



If you want detail, look into GURPS: Transhuman Space and GURPS:Vehicles. I've used those to fill in some of the blanks of BT's less-detailed construction rules. Just be ready to track items down to the pound and Watt.

Quote:
If I don't want a cafeteria or gym on my ship, I shouldn't be forced to have them. Maybe I want a cheap "no-frills" ship with low morale. Eh, I'll have to think about it a bit more.



You can trim down quarters in several ways within BT rules. For required crew, the lowest you can go is steerage quarters - you can't get away from their 5 tons for controls and life support. But extra crew (anything beyond the rule minimums), bay personnel, and passengers, you can assign them to infantry bays, which works out to about 5 tons per 28 personnel and something like [number of people / 20] tons of consumables per day. This is particularly helpful for small craft like long-ranged shuttles.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
tmr01750195
12/18/17 12:20 PM
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Hi Cray,

Quote:
Quote:
Excellent information, thank you Mike and tmr01750195.
I didn't think about air weight, but I wish the construction rules were more detailed.



If you want detail, look into GURPS: Transhuman Space and GURPS:Vehicles. I've used those to fill in some of the blanks of BT's less-detailed construction rules. Just be ready to track items down to the pound and Watt.



I agree with Cray about the two GURPS products mentioned above.

Quote:
Quote:
If I don't want a cafeteria or gym on my ship, I shouldn't be forced to have them. Maybe I want a cheap "no-frills" ship with low morale. Eh, I'll have to think about it a bit more.





On the military side there is most ships and large small craft have places to prepare and eat food. The galley, a.k.a. kitchen, is sized for the size of the hull. The Mess Decks, kind of a cafeteria, is for the majority of the crew. The officers dine in the Wardroom which may or may not have a separate galley. The mess deck also doubles as a lounge, training space, or anything else.

From the shows on civilian ships I've seen on channels like National Geographic or the Smithsonian they too have places to prepare food for the crew and frequently a separate facility for passengers.

FanPro 35011 2004 AT2 p. 112 comments on recreation and exercise indicating that the are suggested not required. Unfortunately, I have not located any details on the tonnage and cost. Of course a dedicated gym's tonnage is really based on the equipment installed and the space needed to set up the equipment, while the cost is based on the price for all the equipment in the gym. Three of the four subs I served were ballistic missile boats that had tread mill and/or a stationary bike in the bottom level of the missile compartment. There was also hand weights stowed on a box between the tubes on the middle level of the missile compartment. The last boat was a fast attack which I do not recall having any equipment. However, you could do exercises like sit-ups, push-ups, and other similar stuff. My last sea tour was on a forward deployed submarine tender which had a gym located in a compartment above a cargo hold that had weight machines, free weights, stationary bikes, tread mills and other equipment. For those who liked running while underway you could do laps on the outside decks.

BT TechManual PDF CAT 35002 2007-2013 The Topps Company, Inc. Corrected Third Printing Published by Catalyst Game Lab p. 236 states that quarters are roughly equal to hotel accommodations.

Quote:
You can trim down quarters in several ways within BT rules. For required crew, the lowest you can go is steerage quarters - you can't get away from their 5 tons for controls and life support. But extra crew (anything beyond the rule minimums), bay personnel, and passengers, you can assign them to infantry bays, which works out to about 5 tons per 28 personnel and something like [number of people / 20] tons of consumables per day. This is particularly helpful for small craft like long-ranged shuttles.



The tonnage for quarters includes the fixtures like furniture, sanitary facilities, and in the higher class quarters anything one can think of.

Based on my military background the FanPro foot infantry bay would be more appropriate for most of the enlisted crew and an alternative to the steerage quarter.

BT TechManual PDF CAT 35002 2007-2013 The Topps Company, Inc. Corrected Third Printing Published by Catalyst Game Lab pp. 239-240 allow infantry/battle armor to be housed in a compartment which is smaller in tonnage than a bay.

On the BattleTech forum http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=27319.0 is a link to an update four page errata document for the TM PDF. The second entry I believe prevents housing crew in bays.The moderator for the board indicates that new print copies will also have the change.

TechManual (Version 3.0)

The following is a compiled rules errata for the third (PDF - only) release of TechManual , as of 9 December, 2017 p. 3.

Transport Bays (p. 239)

1) Under “Construction Rules”, last paragraph, first sentence

The weight, equipment slot space (if any) and capacity for all transport bay types are shown in the Quarters/Seating Table below.

Change to:

The weight, equipment slot space (if any) and capacity for all transport bay types are shown in the table below.

2) Under “Construction Rules”, at the end of the last paragraph insert the following:

However, crew for the unit carrying the bay cannot be housed in those bays.

Personally I would prefer that military hulls be allowed to use the bays for the crew like you suggested.
Rajaat99
12/18/17 01:30 PM
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Wow guys, thank you. That's incredibly helpful. I don't think I'll buy the GURPS books, but I like the bay information. I don't want to house rule things too much, as I'm trying to not break too many rules. I've already changed the fuel requirements to takeoff and landing their dropship. I thought their 1,400 ton dropship used way too much fuel to takeoff and land, so I figured out the fuel cost per ton and multiplied it by 1,400 for both takeoff and landing.
However, even trimming the fuel cost, it's still very expensive to take on missions where their Battlemechs are not needed, so Mike, you are correct. I'm trying to trim down the quarters for use on a long range shuttle.
"You are not alone among strangers, a way has been chosen."


Edited by Rajaat99 (12/18/17 01:34 PM)
tmr01750195
12/21/17 06:07 PM
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Hello Rajaat99,

Hopefully, I have been helpful and my apologies for for appearing to be a rules lawyer. My mind set is designing for I guess playing an official game. I forget about gaming outside a convention or other similar venue. As I am frequently reminded the rules are guidelines that can be modified to fit the game environment.

I've discovered that the Catalyst Game Labs Combat Vehicle rules the design of a M1 Abrams with CASE in the turret or allow the allocation for the two AA machine guns mounted on top of the turret. I am tempted to do a design by hand that has CASE in the turret for the main gun ammo and just add the weight of the two machine guns. If I had the gumption to post the finished design notes that the design modified the CASE rules and space requirement would be included.

House rules are good as long as someone like me knows what rules are being modified and when everyone in the game agrees to use them
ghostrider
12/22/17 01:15 AM
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On that note, it is asked that at the start of anything posted, you say straight up, it is not canon.
Helps keep people from thinking it is. More then a few times, I was reading a design and wondered if they had changed things in the newer rules, only to find out, they weren't.

The main reason I ask this is if anyone that doesn't really know the game comes in, and tries to use some of the designs in a convention or even among those that don't use house rules, will laugh them out of the room.
Not something we want people to experience after them get here.

One more aspect. Make sure if you use the house rules in a game with others, they know it is house rules. Had a few D&D games really get screwed up when someone brought in a player that had things we never heard of, and they were extremely overpowered things.

But this is off the subject.
I really think some of the weights are off, but without a full listing or even something even close to compatible in real life to base it off of, we have to educated guess it.
It could well be the ship sizes are too small for really having the equipment on there, and not be a weight issue. I know they have some engineers helping figure this out. And that is not a dig on them.
This is much like a submarine having the inner hull, and the outer hull. Helps keep the air in when hit. The duct working as well as the bypasses and redundant systems might well add up to the weight in question.
Sealing off an area is more then just closing the doors. Even the ducts themselves could be destroyed.
tmr01750195
12/24/17 12:55 AM
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Hello ghostrider,

Sorry about going off topic.

The USN Shipboard Habitability Improvement Program web site at http://www.habitability.net/ has a document has the criteria for accommodations for the crew and other personnel.

A Commanding Officer's Single Stateroom per Table 2-1 Unobstructed Area in Square Feet per Officer Accommodation is based on the length of the hull and square feet.

Ship Length 150-300 feet: 45 to 50 square feet
Ship Length 301-600 feet: 55 to 70 square feet
Ship Length over 600 feet: 65 to 90 square feet

The Commanding Officer (CO) staterooms on three of the four submarines I served on fell into the Ship Length of 301-600 feet. This had a fixed desk with chair, a bunk that doubled as a couch, a small locker for hanging clothes, a fold-up sink, and some other small stuff. The sanitary facilities consisted of a toilet, sink, and a small closet sized shower shared with the Executive Officer.

The fourth sub I was on the CO's stateroom was under the Ship Length 150-300 criteria.

As shown above square footage is the criteria not weight.

The pressure hull, a.k.a. people tank, had water tight hatches between compartments. The ventilation ducts could be sealed to prevent flooding between compartments. Wiring that goes between compartments or passes through the pressure hull pass through water tight fittings.

My last command was a submarine tender that was set up like the subs I was on, with the exception the tender was not designed to sink and return to the surface.

The pressure hull is designed to keep the crew dry and breathing air versus being crushed by sea pressure and breathing water. The ISS on the other hand is designed to keep the air in and the hull from exploding due to the air pressure being higher that vacuum.

During my research I think that both civilian and USN criteria are based the requirements in books like The American Institute of Architects Architectural Graphic Standards.

GURPS Vehicles, IIRC since I'm not sure where my copy is buried, does have the weight of various items that can be added together to see how much room will weigh.

I hope that 2017 ends and 2018 starts on a good note for everyone here on Sarna.net.
ghostrider
12/24/17 02:35 AM
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I was talking about me going off subject, so don't apologize. We all do it on occasion.

Now the question with this is, if the front and rear parts of a sub is fine, how do you get air to the other, if something in the middle is screwed up?

And does the information list you found have anything to suggest how many days without surfacing they have?
Or any sort of weight they rooms are?
You don't need to post it here, just would like to know for a reference.
A starship especially something like a jumpship, will never get into an atmosphere to refresh their air, so having the tanks and scrubbers is necessary. It may well be, they need so much back up and such that the weight are actually lighter then they should be. I hope not.
tmr01750195
12/24/17 02:17 PM
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Howdy ghostrider,

On subs the middle has most of the important controls, however each compartment has special equipment that helps keep the air breathable for, in theory, long enough to get fix the problem.

In theory the O2 generators and CO2 scrubbers will keep the air breathable for as long as the reactor and their components and chemicals last. Of course running out of food will probably occur first.

Then there is the O2 banks that are used for emergencies. They get tested and topped off using the O2 generators.

Submarines are basically spaceships the difference is a submarine worries about being crushed and a spaceship worries about exploding when the hull is over-pressurized. In either case the hull breaks up.

My guess is that the BT hull materials are stronger than what we have today.

If one had access to a supply catalog I think you could find out the dimensions and weight of the components. Unfortunately, the habitability document does not give weight.

I've been trying to dig up information that might be of help so far my luck has been lousy.
Have a good end to 2017 and a good 2018.
ghostrider
12/24/17 04:11 PM
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Well star craft in gravity wells, ie around even moons, is an issue. Take for instance, some craft having to probe Jupiter. So they do have to worry about some outside pressures. Even in nebula and such.

As for the information, don't push yourself. It is more curiosity then needed at this point. The developers are going to do as they want.

Now as for air, I take it, they have them scattered throughout the sub. Alls they need is power to run them, and the chemicals to run them. Good to know. For some reason, I was under the impression they had something like central ac for a home. Thinking it all came from one source and pumped to all the locations needed.
In this case, redundancies are a good thing.

One of the earlier books had a comparison of acs in the game to real life tank barrels. So yeah. I would think most of the materials are better then todays units, though might not be different materials. The zero g mixing makes alloys that is just not possible on earth.
The diamond filament in mech armor is one stated difference that I know of.

Which brings up a question.
Would using endosteel in ship components lighten up those like they do mech structures?
Or is that getting into vehicles can't use it area?
tmr01750195
12/25/17 12:48 AM
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Evening from WA ghostrider,

A ship that is going to probe Jupiter will be designed, in theory, to withstand the pressure of the atmosphere at a specific depth.

The space shuttle and the current reusable rockets are designed to with stand the stresses and strains of operating in vacuum and at normal atmospheric pressure of 14.7 lbs. per square inch at sea level.

At a depth of 60 feet below sea level the pressure is around 41 lbs. per square inch the deeper you go the more pressure. When you reach crush depth the hull crumples inwards and then explodes. Full size Styrofoam coffee cups that got left in crannies before submerging came up compressed down in size.

Trying to figure out how much the stuff weighs has been an on going project since at least 1995. At this rate someone has already figured this out and I just have not found the information yet.

Other than adding to the complexity of the design process in my opinion internal structure material could be used in all the design rules.

Personally, I think the infantry bays/compartments would be acceptable to house all personnel being carried on a ship. In Robert Buettner Orphanage series we were attacked and over a period of time built huge warships. We won the war and the books Overkill and Undercurrents those warships are now being used as transports. Passengers are housed in unused troop compartments and staterooms. Any unused space is, in theory, sealed off but with a little work can be put back on line.

Under tournament rules the answer is that using endosteel or infantry bays/compartments is not legal. A game run in another location with agreement of all involved the answer is yes.
ghostrider
12/25/17 04:55 PM
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Didn't think about it until now, but dropships are a very big example of ships needing to deal with more then internal stress outwards.
Don't know why I felt that needed to be clarified. Might be the need to argue. Not sure.

I doubt a jumpship would have to deal with more then just a normal weight pushing inwards as they do get drydocked every so often, but that is nothing compared to other things.

I would think crew quarters would be different for deep space then say a drop ship. More comforts for longer deployment times is a morale issue. I know the game developers want to keep it relatively simple, so they don't have the variants like that.

Then again, if you want comfort, then hire a monarch dropship. Which doesn't seem to be any different in crew quarter weights then the other ships.
tmr01750195
12/25/17 06:17 PM
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Howdy ghostrider,

I did not mean to suggest that internal stress outwards was the only factor when you have to consider the stresses imposed on landing/taking off from the surface of a planet or what acceleration/deceleration does to the internal structure and hull plating. The first passenger jet liner was the British Comet did a great job until they began crashing. The investigation revealed that the flexing of the airframe, the plane's skin, and square windows caused metal fatigue at the corners of the window. Eventually, the skin would tear apart and the Comets began to crash.

I've watched stories about cruise ships on channels similar to if not on the Smithsonian channel. From what I've seen the passenger staterooms, regardless of class, appear to have the same dimensions. During my time in the USN the spaces occupied the crew looked and felt the same. My bunk on the four submarines was the same size. The bunk on the tender was a bit bigger but still looked like the ones on the subs. The barracks rooms were also similar to each other. On I think the Smithsonian channel they had a story on a civilian ship that showed the crew quarters which most appeared to be same layout and size.

The quarters may have the same weight but the difference could be that the bunk is bigger, with more storage, and gold plated fixtures on the Monarch versus an Avenger.
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/05/18 08:50 PM
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Quote:
Quarters address every facility on a ship for a person: every cubic meter of air (those add up fast - BT DropShips may have hundreds of tons of air in them



a 100 ton of air is 77,371 or so cubic meters. That is a big dropship.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
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