Ship Quarters

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Rajaat99
12/15/17 01:11 PM
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I'm a bit ignorant when it comes to what the different types of quarters contain and I couldn't find it in Aerotech 2. What's the difference between crew and 2nd class passengers? Is the cost for quarters, or the number of people? If it's the number of people, what does a second class passenger get for 7 tons?
Thank you to anyone who can clear it up for me.
"You are not alone among strangers, a way has been chosen."
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
12/16/17 06:35 AM
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The answer to your first question, there is none they are the same.

As to your second question, no one knows as the authors of the game never really bothered to explain as they did not think it was relevant to play the game.

Each level of quarters is for one person. So that is 5, 7 or 10 tons to carry one person in the ship.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
Rajaat99
12/16/17 10:01 AM
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Wow, the tonnage seems a bit much for just one person and their luggage. I may have to house rule it.

Thanks for clearing that up for me though, I appreciate it.

Actually, I noticed the small craft ST-46 cheats and has a bay for 8 passengers weighing just 8 tons. Seems like some official source didn't care for the weight of passengers either.
"You are not alone among strangers, a way has been chosen."
CrayModerator
12/16/17 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Wow, the tonnage seems a bit much for just one person and their luggage. I may have to house rule it.



It's not just tonnage for the person and their luggage. Quarters address every facility on a ship for a person: every cubic meter of air (those add up fast - BT DropShips may have hundreds of tons of air in them); every life support system; laundry facilities; the structural mass of the quarters; facilities on a grav deck; gyms; the water budget in the life support system for each person (a long shower can cycle through a metric ton of water); the ship's cafeteria; temperature regulation systems that work from inside the orbit of Mercury to beyond Pluto; etc.

The infantry bays give utterly minimal masses for personnel on spaceship, but their usage of consumables (air, water, etc.) is so high that after more than a 6-8 weeks in space it's more weight efficient to give each infantryman a steerage-class quarters. Steerage, standard, and luxury/officer quarters have much better life support recycling, as well as better facilities throughout the rest of the ship (see above: cafeteria, gym, laundry, etc.)
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
tmr01750195
12/16/17 10:54 AM
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Hello Rajaat99,

Quote:
I'm a bit ignorant when it comes to what the different types of quarters contain and I couldn't find it in Aerotech 2.



The sources for the answers being provided are based on the material found in

A. FanPro/WKGames 35011 2004 AeroTech 2 Revised Edition p. 85

B. BT TechManual PDF CAT 35002 2007-2013 The Topps Company, Inc. Corrected Third Printing Published by Catalyst Game Labs pp. 237 & 239

Quote:
What's the difference between crew and 2nd class passengers?



In my opinion one difference is that passengers pay for their quarters while the crew in theory do not pay. Of course as His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey stated the authors left the details out.

[quoted]....., what does a second class passenger get for 7 tons?



Source B p. 236

"Roughly analogous to hotel accommodations, quarters come in a variety of basic styles, from the communal bunk bed set-up for crew quarters and the cramped basics of passenger steerage to more luxurious and roomy first- and second-class suites."

The above information is for civilian and not military units in my opinion.

I am retired United States Navy so I have a small issue with the details provided by Crystal Game Labs', and a number of other games for that matter, details for crew quarters on military hulls.

On the four submarines I served on the Captain's and Executive Officer's staterooms had a single bunk that doubled as a couch, a desk, a fold down stainless steel sink, and some storage. There was a shared head, bathroom, linking their staterooms with a fixed stainless steel sink, stainless steel toilet, and a shower stall with a door.

Three officers shared one stateroom/bunk room that had three lockers, three bunks, three fold up desks, and one fold down sink. They shared a head that had three of everything needed in a bathroom.

The Chiefs Quarters had a small common area with a bunk room to either side with, IIRC, and one or two heads with four of everything.

The majority of the crew slept in berthing area or compartment that had stacks of one to three bunks. Depending on the number of bunks there would be a head that had a varying number of showers, sinks, and toilets.

Most of the bunks had a storage in an area below the bunk pan that was hinged.

IIRC the newest SSBNs broke the crew have bunk rooms with four bunks per space.

On the surface ship I was on the Captain, Executive Officer, and Department heads had separate staterooms with private heads. The more junior the officer up to four shared a stateroom and heads. Chiefs again had separate berthing with heads. The rest of the crew where again in berthing area or compartment that had stacks of one to five or six bunks. Depending on the number of bunks there would be a head that had a varying number of showers, sinks, and toilets.
Rajaat99
12/16/17 04:21 PM
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Excellent information, thank you Mike and tmr01750195.
I didn't think about air weight, but I wish the construction rules were more detailed. If I don't want a cafeteria or gym on my ship, I shouldn't be forced to have them. Maybe I want a cheap "no-frills" ship with low morale. Eh, I'll have to think about it a bit more.
"You are not alone among strangers, a way has been chosen."
ghostrider
12/16/17 04:51 PM
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This particular conversation was had a short while back. It seemed like more tonnage to the rooms then necessary. Wiether it is or not hasn't been answered to satisfaction yet. Well not to me anyways.

Donkey based some house rules on someone elses suggestions, I want to say akira. They are in the ship design section, with a few ships he put up that uses those house rules. Check them out and see if they work for you.
tmr01750195
12/17/17 01:03 AM
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Hello Rajaat99,

You are welcome for any help, at least I hope I'm helping, in the way of information I can dig up up.

Quote:
Excellent information, thank you Mike and tmr01750195.
I didn't think about air weight, but I wish the construction rules were more detailed. If I don't want a cafeteria or gym on my ship, I shouldn't be forced to have them. Maybe I want a cheap "no-frills" ship with low morale. Eh, I'll have to think about it a bit more.



There are a a number of games that have detailed design systems. One of the more generic ones is published by Steve Jackson Games titled 'Vehicles'. FFE Traveller also has detailed design sequences.

The USN has a publication for shipboard habitability that provides rules on how much space personnel get as well as how many head fixtures, drinking fountains, and other items needed. I used to have the link, but now I can not find it.
CrayModerator
12/17/17 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Excellent information, thank you Mike and tmr01750195.
I didn't think about air weight, but I wish the construction rules were more detailed.



If you want detail, look into GURPS: Transhuman Space and GURPS:Vehicles. I've used those to fill in some of the blanks of BT's less-detailed construction rules. Just be ready to track items down to the pound and Watt.

Quote:
If I don't want a cafeteria or gym on my ship, I shouldn't be forced to have them. Maybe I want a cheap "no-frills" ship with low morale. Eh, I'll have to think about it a bit more.



You can trim down quarters in several ways within BT rules. For required crew, the lowest you can go is steerage quarters - you can't get away from their 5 tons for controls and life support. But extra crew (anything beyond the rule minimums), bay personnel, and passengers, you can assign them to infantry bays, which works out to about 5 tons per 28 personnel and something like [number of people / 20] tons of consumables per day. This is particularly helpful for small craft like long-ranged shuttles.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
tmr01750195
12/18/17 12:20 PM
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Hi Cray,

Quote:
Quote:
Excellent information, thank you Mike and tmr01750195.
I didn't think about air weight, but I wish the construction rules were more detailed.



If you want detail, look into GURPS: Transhuman Space and GURPS:Vehicles. I've used those to fill in some of the blanks of BT's less-detailed construction rules. Just be ready to track items down to the pound and Watt.



I agree with Cray about the two GURPS products mentioned above.

Quote:
Quote:
If I don't want a cafeteria or gym on my ship, I shouldn't be forced to have them. Maybe I want a cheap "no-frills" ship with low morale. Eh, I'll have to think about it a bit more.





On the military side there is most ships and large small craft have places to prepare and eat food. The galley, a.k.a. kitchen, is sized for the size of the hull. The Mess Decks, kind of a cafeteria, is for the majority of the crew. The officers dine in the Wardroom which may or may not have a separate galley. The mess deck also doubles as a lounge, training space, or anything else.

From the shows on civilian ships I've seen on channels like National Geographic or the Smithsonian they too have places to prepare food for the crew and frequently a separate facility for passengers.

FanPro 35011 2004 AT2 p. 112 comments on recreation and exercise indicating that the are suggested not required. Unfortunately, I have not located any details on the tonnage and cost. Of course a dedicated gym's tonnage is really based on the equipment installed and the space needed to set up the equipment, while the cost is based on the price for all the equipment in the gym. Three of the four subs I served were ballistic missile boats that had tread mill and/or a stationary bike in the bottom level of the missile compartment. There was also hand weights stowed on a box between the tubes on the middle level of the missile compartment. The last boat was a fast attack which I do not recall having any equipment. However, you could do exercises like sit-ups, push-ups, and other similar stuff. My last sea tour was on a forward deployed submarine tender which had a gym located in a compartment above a cargo hold that had weight machines, free weights, stationary bikes, tread mills and other equipment. For those who liked running while underway you could do laps on the outside decks.

BT TechManual PDF CAT 35002 2007-2013 The Topps Company, Inc. Corrected Third Printing Published by Catalyst Game Lab p. 236 states that quarters are roughly equal to hotel accommodations.

Quote:
You can trim down quarters in several ways within BT rules. For required crew, the lowest you can go is steerage quarters - you can't get away from their 5 tons for controls and life support. But extra crew (anything beyond the rule minimums), bay personnel, and passengers, you can assign them to infantry bays, which works out to about 5 tons per 28 personnel and something like [number of people / 20] tons of consumables per day. This is particularly helpful for small craft like long-ranged shuttles.



The tonnage for quarters includes the fixtures like furniture, sanitary facilities, and in the higher class quarters anything one can think of.

Based on my military background the FanPro foot infantry bay would be more appropriate for most of the enlisted crew and an alternative to the steerage quarter.

BT TechManual PDF CAT 35002 2007-2013 The Topps Company, Inc. Corrected Third Printing Published by Catalyst Game Lab pp. 239-240 allow infantry/battle armor to be housed in a compartment which is smaller in tonnage than a bay.

On the BattleTech forum http://bg.battletech.com/forums/index.php?topic=27319.0 is a link to an update four page errata document for the TM PDF. The second entry I believe prevents housing crew in bays.The moderator for the board indicates that new print copies will also have the change.

TechManual (Version 3.0)

The following is a compiled rules errata for the third (PDF - only) release of TechManual , as of 9 December, 2017 p. 3.

Transport Bays (p. 239)

1) Under “Construction Rules”, last paragraph, first sentence

The weight, equipment slot space (if any) and capacity for all transport bay types are shown in the Quarters/Seating Table below.

Change to:

The weight, equipment slot space (if any) and capacity for all transport bay types are shown in the table below.

2) Under “Construction Rules”, at the end of the last paragraph insert the following:

However, crew for the unit carrying the bay cannot be housed in those bays.

Personally I would prefer that military hulls be allowed to use the bays for the crew like you suggested.
Rajaat99
12/18/17 01:30 PM
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Wow guys, thank you. That's incredibly helpful. I don't think I'll buy the GURPS books, but I like the bay information. I don't want to house rule things too much, as I'm trying to not break too many rules. I've already changed the fuel requirements to takeoff and landing their dropship. I thought their 1,400 ton dropship used way too much fuel to takeoff and land, so I figured out the fuel cost per ton and multiplied it by 1,400 for both takeoff and landing.
However, even trimming the fuel cost, it's still very expensive to take on missions where their Battlemechs are not needed, so Mike, you are correct. I'm trying to trim down the quarters for use on a long range shuttle.
"You are not alone among strangers, a way has been chosen."


Edited by Rajaat99 (12/18/17 01:34 PM)
tmr01750195
12/21/17 06:07 PM
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Hello Rajaat99,

Hopefully, I have been helpful and my apologies for for appearing to be a rules lawyer. My mind set is designing for I guess playing an official game. I forget about gaming outside a convention or other similar venue. As I am frequently reminded the rules are guidelines that can be modified to fit the game environment.

I've discovered that the Catalyst Game Labs Combat Vehicle rules the design of a M1 Abrams with CASE in the turret or allow the allocation for the two AA machine guns mounted on top of the turret. I am tempted to do a design by hand that has CASE in the turret for the main gun ammo and just add the weight of the two machine guns. If I had the gumption to post the finished design notes that the design modified the CASE rules and space requirement would be included.

House rules are good as long as someone like me knows what rules are being modified and when everyone in the game agrees to use them
ghostrider
12/22/17 01:15 AM
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On that note, it is asked that at the start of anything posted, you say straight up, it is not canon.
Helps keep people from thinking it is. More then a few times, I was reading a design and wondered if they had changed things in the newer rules, only to find out, they weren't.

The main reason I ask this is if anyone that doesn't really know the game comes in, and tries to use some of the designs in a convention or even among those that don't use house rules, will laugh them out of the room.
Not something we want people to experience after them get here.

One more aspect. Make sure if you use the house rules in a game with others, they know it is house rules. Had a few D&D games really get screwed up when someone brought in a player that had things we never heard of, and they were extremely overpowered things.

But this is off the subject.
I really think some of the weights are off, but without a full listing or even something even close to compatible in real life to base it off of, we have to educated guess it.
It could well be the ship sizes are too small for really having the equipment on there, and not be a weight issue. I know they have some engineers helping figure this out. And that is not a dig on them.
This is much like a submarine having the inner hull, and the outer hull. Helps keep the air in when hit. The duct working as well as the bypasses and redundant systems might well add up to the weight in question.
Sealing off an area is more then just closing the doors. Even the ducts themselves could be destroyed.
tmr01750195
12/24/17 12:55 AM
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Hello ghostrider,

Sorry about going off topic.

The USN Shipboard Habitability Improvement Program web site at http://www.habitability.net/ has a document has the criteria for accommodations for the crew and other personnel.

A Commanding Officer's Single Stateroom per Table 2-1 Unobstructed Area in Square Feet per Officer Accommodation is based on the length of the hull and square feet.

Ship Length 150-300 feet: 45 to 50 square feet
Ship Length 301-600 feet: 55 to 70 square feet
Ship Length over 600 feet: 65 to 90 square feet

The Commanding Officer (CO) staterooms on three of the four submarines I served on fell into the Ship Length of 301-600 feet. This had a fixed desk with chair, a bunk that doubled as a couch, a small locker for hanging clothes, a fold-up sink, and some other small stuff. The sanitary facilities consisted of a toilet, sink, and a small closet sized shower shared with the Executive Officer.

The fourth sub I was on the CO's stateroom was under the Ship Length 150-300 criteria.

As shown above square footage is the criteria not weight.

The pressure hull, a.k.a. people tank, had water tight hatches between compartments. The ventilation ducts could be sealed to prevent flooding between compartments. Wiring that goes between compartments or passes through the pressure hull pass through water tight fittings.

My last command was a submarine tender that was set up like the subs I was on, with the exception the tender was not designed to sink and return to the surface.

The pressure hull is designed to keep the crew dry and breathing air versus being crushed by sea pressure and breathing water. The ISS on the other hand is designed to keep the air in and the hull from exploding due to the air pressure being higher that vacuum.

During my research I think that both civilian and USN criteria are based the requirements in books like The American Institute of Architects Architectural Graphic Standards.

GURPS Vehicles, IIRC since I'm not sure where my copy is buried, does have the weight of various items that can be added together to see how much room will weigh.

I hope that 2017 ends and 2018 starts on a good note for everyone here on Sarna.net.
ghostrider
12/24/17 02:35 AM
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I was talking about me going off subject, so don't apologize. We all do it on occasion.

Now the question with this is, if the front and rear parts of a sub is fine, how do you get air to the other, if something in the middle is screwed up?

And does the information list you found have anything to suggest how many days without surfacing they have?
Or any sort of weight they rooms are?
You don't need to post it here, just would like to know for a reference.
A starship especially something like a jumpship, will never get into an atmosphere to refresh their air, so having the tanks and scrubbers is necessary. It may well be, they need so much back up and such that the weight are actually lighter then they should be. I hope not.
tmr01750195
12/24/17 02:17 PM
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Howdy ghostrider,

On subs the middle has most of the important controls, however each compartment has special equipment that helps keep the air breathable for, in theory, long enough to get fix the problem.

In theory the O2 generators and CO2 scrubbers will keep the air breathable for as long as the reactor and their components and chemicals last. Of course running out of food will probably occur first.

Then there is the O2 banks that are used for emergencies. They get tested and topped off using the O2 generators.

Submarines are basically spaceships the difference is a submarine worries about being crushed and a spaceship worries about exploding when the hull is over-pressurized. In either case the hull breaks up.

My guess is that the BT hull materials are stronger than what we have today.

If one had access to a supply catalog I think you could find out the dimensions and weight of the components. Unfortunately, the habitability document does not give weight.

I've been trying to dig up information that might be of help so far my luck has been lousy.
Have a good end to 2017 and a good 2018.
ghostrider
12/24/17 04:11 PM
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Well star craft in gravity wells, ie around even moons, is an issue. Take for instance, some craft having to probe Jupiter. So they do have to worry about some outside pressures. Even in nebula and such.

As for the information, don't push yourself. It is more curiosity then needed at this point. The developers are going to do as they want.

Now as for air, I take it, they have them scattered throughout the sub. Alls they need is power to run them, and the chemicals to run them. Good to know. For some reason, I was under the impression they had something like central ac for a home. Thinking it all came from one source and pumped to all the locations needed.
In this case, redundancies are a good thing.

One of the earlier books had a comparison of acs in the game to real life tank barrels. So yeah. I would think most of the materials are better then todays units, though might not be different materials. The zero g mixing makes alloys that is just not possible on earth.
The diamond filament in mech armor is one stated difference that I know of.

Which brings up a question.
Would using endosteel in ship components lighten up those like they do mech structures?
Or is that getting into vehicles can't use it area?
tmr01750195
12/25/17 12:48 AM
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Evening from WA ghostrider,

A ship that is going to probe Jupiter will be designed, in theory, to withstand the pressure of the atmosphere at a specific depth.

The space shuttle and the current reusable rockets are designed to with stand the stresses and strains of operating in vacuum and at normal atmospheric pressure of 14.7 lbs. per square inch at sea level.

At a depth of 60 feet below sea level the pressure is around 41 lbs. per square inch the deeper you go the more pressure. When you reach crush depth the hull crumples inwards and then explodes. Full size Styrofoam coffee cups that got left in crannies before submerging came up compressed down in size.

Trying to figure out how much the stuff weighs has been an on going project since at least 1995. At this rate someone has already figured this out and I just have not found the information yet.

Other than adding to the complexity of the design process in my opinion internal structure material could be used in all the design rules.

Personally, I think the infantry bays/compartments would be acceptable to house all personnel being carried on a ship. In Robert Buettner Orphanage series we were attacked and over a period of time built huge warships. We won the war and the books Overkill and Undercurrents those warships are now being used as transports. Passengers are housed in unused troop compartments and staterooms. Any unused space is, in theory, sealed off but with a little work can be put back on line.

Under tournament rules the answer is that using endosteel or infantry bays/compartments is not legal. A game run in another location with agreement of all involved the answer is yes.
ghostrider
12/25/17 04:55 PM
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Didn't think about it until now, but dropships are a very big example of ships needing to deal with more then internal stress outwards.
Don't know why I felt that needed to be clarified. Might be the need to argue. Not sure.

I doubt a jumpship would have to deal with more then just a normal weight pushing inwards as they do get drydocked every so often, but that is nothing compared to other things.

I would think crew quarters would be different for deep space then say a drop ship. More comforts for longer deployment times is a morale issue. I know the game developers want to keep it relatively simple, so they don't have the variants like that.

Then again, if you want comfort, then hire a monarch dropship. Which doesn't seem to be any different in crew quarter weights then the other ships.
tmr01750195
12/25/17 06:17 PM
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Howdy ghostrider,

I did not mean to suggest that internal stress outwards was the only factor when you have to consider the stresses imposed on landing/taking off from the surface of a planet or what acceleration/deceleration does to the internal structure and hull plating. The first passenger jet liner was the British Comet did a great job until they began crashing. The investigation revealed that the flexing of the airframe, the plane's skin, and square windows caused metal fatigue at the corners of the window. Eventually, the skin would tear apart and the Comets began to crash.

I've watched stories about cruise ships on channels similar to if not on the Smithsonian channel. From what I've seen the passenger staterooms, regardless of class, appear to have the same dimensions. During my time in the USN the spaces occupied the crew looked and felt the same. My bunk on the four submarines was the same size. The bunk on the tender was a bit bigger but still looked like the ones on the subs. The barracks rooms were also similar to each other. On I think the Smithsonian channel they had a story on a civilian ship that showed the crew quarters which most appeared to be same layout and size.

The quarters may have the same weight but the difference could be that the bunk is bigger, with more storage, and gold plated fixtures on the Monarch versus an Avenger.
His_Most_Royal_Highass_Donkey
01/05/18 08:50 PM
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Quote:
Quarters address every facility on a ship for a person: every cubic meter of air (those add up fast - BT DropShips may have hundreds of tons of air in them



a 100 ton of air is 77,371 or so cubic meters. That is a big dropship.
Why argue if the glass is half full or half empty, when you know someone is going to knock it over and spill it anyways.

I was a Major *pain* before
But I got a promotion.
I am now a General *pain*
Yay for promotions!!!
GunslingerPatch
07/26/18 03:00 AM
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1000 years of progress and people are still hot bunking and getting packed in like sardines.

It is one of my pet peeves of ship design. You have a ship that weighs half a million or a million tons. But doesn't have a lousy 10k tons of ammo for the guns. And the fluff says the crew quarters are "cramped". Let's say the crew is 500 men, at 10 tons each.. hell say it is 20 tons each. That is 10,000 tons out of half a million or more.

I just gave that crew really nice quarters and it is only 1 percent of 1 million to do it. Nice, private, single occupancy staterooms like on Picard's Enterprise and the tonnage is negligible to the total tonnage of the ship. Why do so many people begrudge their crew a little elbow room? A mess compartment, a lounge, a gym? Do you want your crew to shove you out the airlock because they know you are the one who decided they should be 3 to a bunk and a dozen each to share the bucket they call a bathroom and shower? For months? Do you know your crew all practice voodoo, even the atheists? Every day, every one of them, while they wait for their turn to lie down on the bunk for a few hours, stabs a doll that looks like you with a steel needle, because they hate you ship designer.

And I'll just bet the ship they are hot bunking on has a 100,000 ton cargo hold.... on a warship.

I can see more cramped spaces for a dropship, as tonnage can be more limited. But come on, half a million tons or so and you can't give the guy his own bunk, a desk and chair, a small couch, and a closet? You would even begrudge them the pittance of space the canon gives them? By the canon, say 50 of those crew are officers and 450 normal crew. That's 2750 tons. Again, out of half a million or more?

And since most crew aren't anywhere near 500 men, we're not even talking that much. Have a heart ship designer. The crew have to live on that thing.
Retry
07/27/18 04:40 PM
174.70.184.145

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Quote:
1000 years of progress and people are still hot bunking and getting packed in like sardines.

It is one of my pet peeves of ship design. You have a ship that weighs half a million or a million tons. But doesn't have a lousy 10k tons of ammo for the guns. And the fluff says the crew quarters are "cramped". Let's say the crew is 500 men, at 10 tons each.. hell say it is 20 tons each. That is 10,000 tons out of half a million or more.

I just gave that crew really nice quarters and it is only 1 percent of 1 million to do it. Nice, private, single occupancy staterooms like on Picard's Enterprise and the tonnage is negligible to the total tonnage of the ship. Why do so many people begrudge their crew a little elbow room? A mess compartment, a lounge, a gym? Do you want your crew to shove you out the airlock because they know you are the one who decided they should be 3 to a bunk and a dozen each to share the bucket they call a bathroom and shower? For months? Do you know your crew all practice voodoo, even the atheists? Every day, every one of them, while they wait for their turn to lie down on the bunk for a few hours, stabs a doll that looks like you with a steel needle, because they hate you ship designer.

And I'll just bet the ship they are hot bunking on has a 100,000 ton cargo hold.... on a warship.

I can see more cramped spaces for a dropship, as tonnage can be more limited. But come on, half a million tons or so and you can't give the guy his own bunk, a desk and chair, a small couch, and a closet? You would even begrudge them the pittance of space the canon gives them? By the canon, say 50 of those crew are officers and 450 normal crew. That's 2750 tons. Again, out of half a million or more?

And since most crew aren't anywhere near 500 men, we're not even talking that much. Have a heart ship designer. The crew have to live on that thing.



There's a few potential explanations for it:

-The ship quarters are fairly cramped because the ship is in fact a Warship and not a luxury yacht.

-Realistically, taking the weight and space to give every crewman a luxury yacht-like accomodations would make the ship much bigger and more thinly spread from a design perspective. The space, armor coverage, and even weight to some extent, is abstracted away via current construction rules though. The only way to really get around this would be something like Shields or reverse-engineering the TARDIS's "bigger on the inside" technobabble.

-That 10,000 tons that you spent giving every crewman private board & bath could have gone into extra weapon systems, or capital missile-proofing your boat with a large AMS array, or allocating space for Space Marines to provide security to your vessel, or enhancing your vessel's comms & sensors with Naval sensor suites and NC3, or more fighter wings, or more extra cargo for combat endurance, stuff that's useful for a combat naval vessel.

-A crew that mutinies because not every man has a toaster should probably not be on a combat vessel. If that happens, weeding the sheep out of your navy is probably higher on the priorities.
ghostrider
07/27/18 07:32 PM
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Might be easier to have them look over current day subs. Now put that in space, where any loss of oxygen can only be replaced by having tanks of them delivered. Warships do not enter atmospheres, unless they are crashing.

Surface vessels aren't that much different.
So this could be just keeping with tradition of ships having the small cramped bunks to avoid the 'curses' that come from change. Superstition is may be, but some believe the world will end if it isn't done this way.

For some reason, I have always thought starships were like the subs. Not like the ones you find on tv where you can store the empire state building in the hold and not have to break any of it down. Even video games seem to have this huge hanger, that if anything happens, like a breach, you just lost about a third to half your air supplies.
But then it may just be might screwed up perception of things.
happyguy49
07/27/18 07:46 PM
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It might also be worthwhile to imagine that WarShips in the Battletech universe don't need to be deployed for many months on end unless there is an actual war happening. They can move around very quickly, especially when dual-charging their L-F batteries they can clear hundreds of light years in days. After a warship does its war-stuff it can come back to a home port or base where the crew can live better than in typical spartan warship conditions.
GunslingerPatch
07/28/18 12:53 AM
216.134.254.194

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A warship in space is in space, all the time. The crew are not going to hop on a shuttle every weekend, even if the ship goes nowhere, they are going to be aboard for months at a stretch or longer between shore leave. And that's if the ship stays in its home system the whole time.

And there is just no excuse for saying a crew has to be as cramped in space as they were in a 1700 ton WWII destroyer or even a modern Los Angeles class attack submarine. Neither of these weighs hundreds of thousands of tons. 1000 years of progress, remember?

We're talking about a crewman in space having to himself, on a half million ton ship, a compartment equivalent to a college freshman dorm room with the bathroom down the hall or shared en suite between 2 rooms.

To say the crew has to be crammed in like sardines on such a ship to make room for one more weapons requires you to explain why cargo holds on warships in the canon are usually at least 20% of the total weight of the ship if not more. The crew has to live cheek to jowl on a Baron Class Destroyer that has a 137,000 ton cargo hold?. Why wasn't that one more weapon taken off the cargo tonnage? The crew quarters is a pittance. There is just no excuse to describe them as cramped or hot bunking at all.

Oh, but the crew has be cramped to give it more armor? Not so at all. I recently did a redesign of that Baron destroyer. I cut the cargo hold to 50,000, made it faster, better armed, etc. Among other things I upped structural integrity from 30 to 45. This gave a max armor weight of almost 430 tons. Yes, that is the max weight of armor on a ship that weighs 480,000 tons isn't even half of 1 percent, not even half of half a percent. (which by the by, is another thing I don't like. I can stick 20 tons of armor on a 100 ton mech. But I can't armor a battleship like... a battleship?)

I used normal canon crew quarters for it, none of the extra tonnage for living space I've worked out for my own custom design rules. 57 officers, 180 crew, 72 gunners, 80 marines. 20 1st class, 50 2nd class, and 100 steerage passengers. All of that was just 3784 tons. One percent of the tonnage of this ship is 4800.

The 64 bay personnel I guess actually live in the cargo bay with all that deep frozen stuff since HM Aero says the weight of their quarters is zero.

The entire quarters tonnage for the crew is less tons than the heat sinks. I have 4300 of those. It is 100 tons more than 2 Navel Laser 45s, of which the ship has 38.

I I were doing this one for my own faction, those quarters would be double that weight, maybe more. I give crew men 10 tons, chiefs 15, officers 20, senior officers, the Captain,more tons, an admiral, staff and flag bridge too. Crew lounges, gyms, raquetball courts, messdecks, galleys, officers lounge, holovid theatre, library, ship's armory, etc. So yeah, I'd hit that 10,000 tons most likely on this ship. Not to mention allocating tonnage on HM Aero for at least 1 year of food and water that is NOT IN the deep frozen cargo bay. And spare parts that are distinct from the cargo hold.

Also, my faction ships have what I call grav decks. 1% of the tonnage gives the crew 1g of gravity and can counteract up to 2gs of thrust as far as the effect on the crew. This does nothing for the ship's performance or speed. It is solely a fluff item that makes the ship more livable.

I can do all of that on a warship simply because no warship I design has a ridiculous amount of cargo hold. Even 50,000 tons for that Baron II is too much for me. But then on a ship of my faction, all that stuff, like fuel, food, water etc. that is canon covered by the cargo hold catch-all is not in the cargo hold, it is specifically allocated in the tonnage. What in my cargo hold is actually just cargo.

There is no canon ship in HM aero that I've yet seen that show tonnage allocated to crew food and water. Also, I've yet to see canon tonnage allocated to spare parts.

And of course all of this is just the 2nd reason why the crew should have elbow room. The first reason is that no matter whether the fluff says the crew is cramped or roomy. It is still 5 tons for a crewmen and 10 for an officer either way. So why call it cramped when a mere pittance of tonnage can double the space in the crew quarters? As long as you limit the cargo hold to no more than 10% you'll have piles of tons for more weapons without screwing the crew over to cram on one more gun.
ghostrider
07/28/18 01:50 AM
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If not deployed, the full crew numbers may not be on the ship. In the stories as well as scenarios, they didn't have close to full crews on some ships. Drydock repairs and maintenance being the main ones done with this.
But you could say not having the full crew on the ship at all times is actually beneficial. No need for using so much air, as well as food, and all sort of things required to keep them there.

Want an armor problem? Look at vehicles. They have no armor max.

The cargo holds does seem high, if you are not taking more supplies to say an outlying colony, or even helping move normal cargo to worlds. If you stick with pure military applications, the only reason why I could see having that much space is taking a complete jump drive, with engines in the hold to replace combat damage. Then extra weapons, ammo, and so on. I think the canon ones do this so you can customize what else in on board for your campaign.
With some ammo being over a ton per shot, that space can go by quickly if you want extra shots. Long range missions with no cargo ships going with you comes to mind. Deep raids being a good example.
CrayModerator
07/28/18 08:43 AM
67.8.230.40

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Quote:
Want an armor problem? Look at vehicles. They have no armor max.



Actually, they do as of Tech Manual. It's just pretty high and was written to cover units like the Sturmfeur.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
GunslingerPatch
07/30/18 12:03 AM
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A ship on active duty is not in mothballs, and most of the systems will still be working all the time. Let it sit there with just half the crew on it and you just doubled the work load of the half that are aboard because all of that maintenance still has to get done.

Some of the canon ships are described as having more than one crew, which is sensible. US Navy subs do this. And it would make more sense generally. 3 month aboard, 3 months ashore.

There is a lot you can put into a cargo hold. But not I think a spare KF drive or ship's engine. Well, you could put one there, but what you could not do is use it to replace a damaged one short of a real shipyard handy to do the work. And if your ship is that shot up, well... how many times did the cargo bay get hit?

The cargo bay catch all works if you are ignoring lots of holes. But if you are picky about such details (such as me), having all that spare stuff, the food, water, ammo, in the cargo bay means it is not readily available.

All the water is in the cargo bay? At minus 400-something degrees? You're not taking a shower today. And heating that meal up in the microwave is going to take a mighty long while. The ammo, sure it is there, sealed in shipping containers, you'll need a few days and nobody shooting at you or much changes of course to get that stuff out of there and reload the guns. Isn't it just better to have a gun with 100 shots in the magazine instead of 20? And to have a food supply inside the heated areas of the ship, where the cooks can serve it the same day they pull it out of the pantry?

You could also have a hundred fighters sitting in that cargo bay. But they can't be used without a lot of time uncrating and assembling and getting them ready first. The cargo bay is pretty much a bag of holding, but not one that can provide an instant fix or reload.

That and generally I don't like seeing huge cargo spaces on a ship of war. Large scale cargo hauling is what we have dropships and civilian jumpships for. You can have a warship or a merchant ship, but one ship should not be both except in uncommon circumstances. Such as a Q-ship to hunt pirates and such.

How many times in the canon fluff in the TROs do we read mention of warships escorting merchant ship convoys and such. Why? That canon warship has more cargo space by itself then the entire merchant convoy does.
ghostrider
07/30/18 01:42 AM
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There are naval ships today that sit in port that are still active, yet not mothballed. They have skeleton crews running the ship as the sailors are off on shore leave or even training.

Now where you get the cargo bay is -400 degrees need to be explained. You think it is outside the armor of the ship?
Or that is would not be kept at the same temperature and with the air of the ship?
To have to heat the bay when you needed to get in there, would take more power then just keeping it to temp. It would be easy to do, as you vent some heat from firing the weapons into it, avoiding needing to use heaters. Even heat from the engines would work.

Electric stoves, ovens, hot plates, crock pots and such do exist. All run on electric, so you don't need to have fire to cook with. Part of the issue with another thread deals with this. Real cooked meals are done on warships. They could use fuel for fires, but that would not be feasible to keep the air clean. And there are parts in the novels that say they do have lit candles going.

The cargo space on warships may be huge, and I agree, more then they really need, if they are not sent out in deep penetration raids in enemy territory, but dropships can land on planets. With one exception. The behemoth. They would unload at a station or have to use shuttles to do so.
Other missions they would need supplies for is exploration of system, which may include brining an extra sail or two to make sure you can get back if the original one fails or is left in another system. Which does happen if enemy contacts are there, and they have a lithium battery on board and charged.

Now readily available may be correct, but where do you refill the ammo bays after a fight? Most do not head back to port if they just chased off a pirate ship. You move the ammo from the cargo bay to the weapons. They should actually have a system to do so. Armor patches being one that would need to be stored and moved into position to repair the ships outside of friendly space. Hell even in friendly space, as not all systems have a dry dock that could fit them.
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