RE: Clannish'ness in The Clan Invasion

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l0rDn0o8sKiLlZ
01/25/18 12:24 PM
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So, hypothetically speaking, if a Clan took an Inner Sphere world with a manufacturing center on it, would they be more likely to capture it or raze it to the ground?

Clan tenets find wastefulness abhorrent; however Clans don't always obey these tenets.

What would they do and why? Would different Clans do different things? Which one's and what? And how would that impact their standing in Clan Society as a whole?
"Woad Raider, kill things today."
wolf_lord_30
01/25/18 12:52 PM
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They would most likely keep it so they could use it for themselves. It might take a little tinkering from their techs, but essentially, they need the same materials as the IS. The Clan Homeworlds were less abundant in resources than the IS, which is one of the reasons a lot of them were so keen on invading. It wasn't just about pride, or the return of the Star League, it was economic as well.

However, if it is a raid and they are not planning on conquering the world, there is a good chance that it will get destroyed. There is no reason to let your enemy keep something that will be used against you.

Wolf: more than likely use it. Less adherent to cultural norms and viewed as more liberal and open minded than a lot of other clans, adapting and conserving the resources makes the most sense.

Jade Falcon: sticklers for protocol and all things "Clan like", they may destroy the manufacturing center out of pure spite, but even this might be out of character. If they won the planet and the center fair and square, it is theirs.

Smoke Jaguar: They would have to keep it. They allowed less freedoms to their tech and merchant castes leaving the military the only form of resource development. Meaning what they wanted, they took, they did not rely on their lower castes for much. These production issues and value system would come back and bite them back.

Ghost Bear: These guys, even from the beginning of the invasion were actually pretty laid back with their conquered worlds. As long as no one did anything stupid, they allowed the governments to pretty much continue to run themselves with few changes. Just as long as everyone knew the Bears were in charge and not to anger the warriors, it was all good. Rasalhague eventually merged with the Bears by voting for it, so I would go with they would not damage something as vital as a manufacturing center.

Steel Viper and Nova Cat: Nova Cats were interesting, they hated the Jags and yet that's the worlds that they were given when reinforcements were needed. They were fairly smart, even if guided by visions. The Vipers I haven't done too much research on, but if I remember correctly, they were just about as rigid as the Falcons. Except they weren't as powerful. So I don't know, but I don't know if they'd waste something like that.

As far as destroying a manufacturing center and it affecting their standing, well, if it's not a military target, the Clans would usually ignore it. After the second exodus, that's when the Clans really came into being what we know them as today. They witnessed total warfare again and decided that their rules of engagement had to be changed to protect their few precious resources. So, in that light, if a Clan destroyed a manufacturing center they would first ask if it was a military target. If so, a challenge might be issued from a fellow member of the Clan to the one that ordered it destroyed. If it wasn't a military target, there would have to be explaining to do and many challenges would be issued and fought. But it would be handled in house and the other Clans would not get involved. Not unless there was cause to absorb or destroy the clan as a whole, which would have to be pretty major.

As with everything BattleTech though, this is open to individual interpretation. The Homeworld Clans fought amongst themselves, capturing factories and destroying others. It happens. Grudges were all over the place. Overall, I don't think Wolf would really care if the Jags were blowing up manufacturing centers in the Inner Sphere. That would only really weaken Smoke Jaguar.
CrayModerator
01/25/18 06:15 PM
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Quote:
So, hypothetically speaking, if a Clan took an Inner Sphere world with a manufacturing center on it, would they be more likely to capture it or raze it to the ground?



There are a number of instances of Clans taking over Inner Sphere 'Mech manufacturing worlds and updating the factory.

An exception being a LAM factory. LAMs were creepy to Clanners since they did things that needed fighter pilots and they did things that needed MechWarriors. Ghost Bear burned that to the ground.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
ghostrider
01/26/18 07:01 PM
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I think some things where left out in wolf's post that needs to be addressed.
They would destroy manufacturing plants if the IS were hiding in it, but only reluctantly. Some tactical situations would force them to do so.

The clans were disgusted about destroying anything that could be of use. I know one factory they took over was from (I believe) quicksell. The vehicles were so poorly built, they almost burned it to the ground, until they decided to make the vehicles moving targets to practice on.

As for destroying it so the enemy couldn't use it? That depends on the time frame of when it was done. Disabling it, like destroying power to it, or something that can be fixed was preferred over complete destruction.

For the most part, the clans were after military forces. They hated even fighting in the cities, as it would cause alot of destruction, but the IS fought from inside of them. This is all part of their ritualized fighting style. Rarely did they fight in any city in clan space.

And crays point of them not liking lams comes from the rivalry of mech warriors and aero pllots. Each were so convinced of their superiority, that training it both was not something they would ever even consider, much less do.
I cant remember which book, but they discussed this in one of the novels, and had to use two control panels to operate one. One for the mech mode, one for fighter, with I believe the mech one did the hybrid mode. Want to say Jade Falcons in a research base on a Smoke Jaguar world.
wolf_lord_30
01/26/18 07:37 PM
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Actually, rivalry had nothing to do with the Clans dislike of LAMs. It was due to the fact that LAMs are generalists. Clans are specialists. Their Mechwarriors are specialized, as are their aero pilots. The time and training that would be wasted to teach a Mechwarrior how to be an aero pilot, especially when not bred for that, was not even a possibility. And you couldn't breed pilots to be the best at both, they required different sets of skills and physical structures.
wolf_lord_30
01/27/18 12:29 AM
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By 3025 only a single factory remained in the Inner Sphere that could produce LAM parts and possibly assemble whole new LAMs: LexaTech Industries on the Draconis Combine planet of Irece. It was specialised in the Stinger LAMs, however circumstantial evidence suggests many spare parts from that design could be used on the Wasp LAM as well. Irece was captured by Clan Nova Cat in 3050. The strict Clan caste system has no place for LAM pilots, mainly because their unique position blurs the distinction between MechWarrior and aerospace pilot, and evidence supports the common belief that the Nova Cats have dismantled or refitted that facility. Other sources claim it was razed to the ground. As a result of that action, new repair parts are no longer available for LAMs - forcing those using them to rely even more heavily upon the salvage mentality of the Succession Wars to keep them in operation. [2]

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Land_Air_%27Mech
Reiter
01/27/18 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Actually, rivalry had nothing to do with the Clans dislike of LAMs. It was due to the fact that LAMs are generalists. Clans are specialists. Their Mechwarriors are specialized, as are their aero pilots. The time and training that would be wasted to teach a Mechwarrior how to be an aero pilot, especially when not bred for that, was not even a possibility. And you couldn't breed pilots to be the best at both, they required different sets of skills and physical structures.



Trying to quote the white elephant mech in the fluff text, if I could remember which one and I swear it was an assault mech...

QuadVee
Protomech
Something, Something, Something about a dual cockpit and failed version of a LAM by the clans in the novels by the Jade Falcons.

Its like, Clans are trying to generalize after specializing. This is after the 3050 invasion, but still...all clan attempts to combine mechs and vehicles, turn micro elementals into Mini-MEchs, or looking into using LAM tech. Not to mention that there are new LAMS built by Word of Blake, but that was just something a new company owning the franchise of Battletech tried to make cash off when they created the whole Jihad thing. So....anything is possible, as with lots of wiki quoting and conspiracy theorizing.
ghostrider
01/28/18 12:09 AM
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The lam the falcons were experimenting with, had the dual cockpit. And they ran into the ego driven facts that neither the mech warrior not the aerospace pilot wanted to give up control to the other. At least in the novel.
And as the clans hate wasting resources, training one person to do both, is just that. They are breed to do one or the other.
Also, to even ask a soldier trained as one to learn the other is a dire insult, or was at the beginning of the invasion. After that, I really don't know.

Now as for battle tech and the issues with robotech, I am actually surprised they tried to reintroduce the lams. The originals used the art work of the veritech fighters or were close enough to let the law suit proceed. It was not the only artwork in question, but given the issues, it may have be on of the things that is starting the rumblings again.
AmaroqStarwind
03/26/18 09:56 PM
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If I recall correctly, at some point the Jade Falcons started breeding some they called Elstars, intended to combine all the best aspects of Aerospace Pilots, Mechwarriors and Elementals... And they got pretty good at it, too, but for whatever reason they decided to restrict that to, like, SUPER special forces type stuff, a sort of "in case of emergency" type of thing.
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FrabbyModerator
03/28/18 09:14 AM
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The -C designs (such as the BattleMaster-C that rolled off from Jade Falcon-captured assembly lines on Twycross) are testament that the Clans generally kept captured infrastructure, and even retooled or upgraded it in some instances.

The LexaTech LAM factory was a special case. In-universe, the Clans (the Nova Cats, to be precise) felt it opposed their cultural tenets, and thus made an almost ritual show of razing the factory to the ground.
Out-of-character, FASA used this as an opportunity to write LAMs out of the fiction. They arguably never fit quite in, didn't have proper game rules for the longest time, and sat squarely in the Unseen problem.

Later developments within the Clans do show an evolution, yes... but the Jade Falcon LAM prototypes were created by teh scientist caste, not warrior caste, and the project turned out a failure. QuadVees came from a Clan whose identifying flavor within the Clans was their combined arms approach. And Elstars are over a hundred years down the line, after the Clans reforged themselves in the Wars of Reaving and a century of contact with the Inner Sphere.
That is to say, as of the time of the Clan invasion, they had absolutely no place for LAMs.

Out of character again, LAMs were re-introduced during the Jihad mainly because of some die-hard fans demanding them and workable rules, which were eventually delivered. The Word of Blake as a dying supertech faction was apparently too good a chance to pass up on. But at the same time, the re-introduced LAMs were dead again almost as soon as they appeared. The whole thing mainly served to retroactively fix a lot of problems with the 3025 era canon.
AmaroqStarwind
03/28/18 02:28 PM
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I do believe a lot of the gameplay and in-universe problems with LAMs stem mainly from pilots/players and engineers who don't really know what they're doing.

Basically every LAM that has been produced was converted from an existing BattleMech or Aerospace Fighter design, when a good LAM should probably be designed from the ground up (or at least based on a non-humanoid mech like the Cougar).

Additionally, LAM pilots have a bad habit of acting like they're normal MechWarriors piloting normal mechs, normal Aerospace Pilots piloting normal Aerospace Fighters, or anime protagonists in an anime. None of those tactics work. If you want to use LAMs to their maximum potential, you need to devise new tactics altogether that play to their strengths.
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