AmaroqStarwind
04/07/18 11:38 AM
99.203.27.127
|
The rules for Gyros are a little aggravating for me, since regardless of the rating, the weight is always rounded up to the next whole number... so for a 10-rated to 100-rated engine, the Gyro always weighs 1 ton... for a 110 to 200 engine, it always weighs 2 tons... 210 to 300, 3 tons... etc.
Is there any particular reason that it was decided that the Gyro would use Full-ton rounding instead of Half-time or Quarter-ton rounding? And if so, what is that reason?
Also, with Compact Gyros, it states that they are 50% heavier than a standard Gyro. At first, I thought that could be exploited using its full-ton rounding rules, since a Compact Gyro for a 60-rated (or weaker) engine would still weigh a full ton, a Compact Gyro for a 130-to-100 engine would still weigh 2 tons, etc... But I learned that this wasn't the case, and that a Gyro's weight was multiplied after rounding rather than before. I guess that solves balance concerns, but it still doesn't really make a lot of sense.
I'm also wondering why anyone even bothered to give the Gyro it's own weight, since it is tied directly to engine rating, instead of just considering the weight of the Gyro as part of the weight of the engine. If anyone has some thoughts on this, I would appreciate it.
Final thought: Because of the current state of the Gyro rules, this actually means that for 300-rated engines and above, turning the Gyro into an Armored Component would be a more viable option than using a Heavy Duty Gyro.
Discord: Amaroq the Kitsune#1092
Telegram: @Lycanphoenix
MechEngine (Alpha) -- On Hiatus
The Scientist Caste has determined that time travel is dishonorable. |
Cray
04/07/18 10:22 PM
67.8.228.37
|
Quote:
Is there any particular reason that it was decided that the Gyro would use Full-ton rounding instead of Half-time or Quarter-ton rounding? And if so, what is that reason?
The rules for gyro tonnage were set at the dawn of the game when the very first writers were totally ad libbing the rules. The tonnages for gyroscopes worked and never really dominated or affected 'Mech design the way engines, heat sinks, armor, and weapons did. So, they didn't get a lot of attention.
Quote:
I'm also wondering why anyone even bothered to give the Gyro it's own weight, since it is tied directly to engine rating, instead of just considering the weight of the Gyro as part of the weight of the engine. If anyone has some thoughts on this, I would appreciate it.
1) An extra piece of the 'Mech to shoot up with interesting game effects. This was an early 1980s game that took some inspiration from Car Wars and Star Fleet Battles, where it was all about shooting up and shooting off different pieces and systems of the enemy's vehicle.
2) A gyroscope was thought necessary. FASA's writers didn't have proven bipedal robots as examples, they only had the failed walking robots of the 1950s to 1980s as examples. So, to stay upright: gyroscopes. Giant, big **** gyroscopes.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
|
AmaroqStarwind
04/08/18 05:10 AM
99.203.26.50
|
A lot of attempted builds I tried to make that involved upgrading the engine rating via XL got ruined because I forgot to take into consideration the weight of the Gyro. In a 30-Ton Mech, a 210 XL and a 1.5 Ton Endo Steel should be the same mass as a 90 Standard Fusion and a 3 Ton Standard Skeleton, but I had forgotten to factor into the calculations that the Gyro's weight would suddenly triple.
I really hope that the rules are eventually updated to make Quarter Ton rounding the norm again (and Gyros included this time). I guess until then, there's always house rules.
Discord: Amaroq the Kitsune#1092
Telegram: @Lycanphoenix
MechEngine (Alpha) -- On Hiatus
The Scientist Caste has determined that time travel is dishonorable. |
ghostrider
04/08/18 07:23 PM
66.74.61.223
|
I don't think there is anything wrong with the gyro computations.
Some of the ones just past the threshold is not great, such as things like 305 or 210 bites as they have alot of weight going to a gyro.
But then the game has been using alot of next level calculations on things. I want to say some of the old vehicle designs with turrets did half ton increments. Even controls for them leave weight when doing calculations.
Doing the fractal calculations means people are getting a little extra in units that shouldn't be.
An example is srm 2 has 50 rounds. But with fractal calculations, they were able to fit like 59 shots.
I grew up with the full tonnage for ammo. Even half tons were not available.
And dig deeper into the game. They are trying to use logic in a few things, which is fine, but then they try to use the same logic to say things can't be done.
The neural helmet is supposed to tap into the persons own balance, yet some things would negate that. A mech laying down from a ship crash, and is started that way. Why is up the same as a mech that started up standing? It shouldn't.
But it all comes down to the developers didn't want it that way.
I do agree the mech should have gyros on it. The weight? Well look at the ac thread about weight. They can make missile launchers half the weight, but still can not provide the logic on why they were so heavy to begin with.
|
AmaroqStarwind
04/09/18 04:50 AM
99.203.26.220
|
Well, when trying to wrap my head around the insanity that was Gyro Calculations, I did stumble upon one pretty big loophole at least. Even though it doesn't actually help the issue with freeing up lost weight, it at the very least lets me get some payback against Gyros as a whole, for all the frustration they have caused me...
- - - - - -
Armored Components weigh an extra 0.5 Tons for every Critical Slot they occupy. The first Critical Hit received by an Armored Component has no effect. Ammo Bins, and "Roll Again" Components such CASE cannot be made into Armored Components, but objects such as Heat Sinks, Engines, Actuators, Gyros, etc... Are all fair game.
A Heavy-Duty Gyro weighs twice as much as a standard Gyro, but it is only 50% more durable, and the first Critical Hit still impacts your mech's performance rather negatively.
Heavy Duty Gyro Mass/Volume, by Engine Rating:
10 – 100: 2 Tons, 4 Slots
105 – 200: 4 Tons, 4 Slots
205 – 300: 6 Tons, 4 Slots
305 – 400: 8 Tons, 4 Slots.
405 – 500: 10 Tons, 4 Slots... Not to mention that Large Engines already fill up the remaining space in the Center Torso. Eww.
Compact Gyros are much better, though, since not only are they lighter, and not only do they free up space, but they are actually harder to hit!
10 – 100: 1.5 Tons, 2 Slots
105 – 200: 3 Tons, 2 Slots
205 – 300: 4.5 Tons, 2 Slots
305 – 400: 6 Tons, 2 Slots.
405 – 500: 7.5 Tons, 2 Slots.
Since Gyros are not forbidden from being made Armored Components, that gives me a really good idea: Any mech that is cursed with the burden of carrying a Heavy-Duty Gyro could exchange it for an Armored Compact Gyro.
In other words, even though this is entirely Inner Sphere technology we're working with, it could still be considered the equivalent of throwing Clan engineers at the problem; for any engine rated more than 100, an Armored Compact Gyro would give you the best of both worlds. The small size of a Compact Gyro, and the same durability as a Heavy-Duty Gyro (except not affecting a mech's performance on the first hit).
Armored Compact Gyros, by Engine Rating:
10 – 100: 2.5 Tons, 2 Slots. (Eh, good but not great...)
105 – 200: 4 Tons, 2 Slots.
205 – 300: 5.5 Tons, 2 Slots.
305 – 400: 7 Tons, 2 Slots.
405 – 500: 8.5 Tons, 2 Slots.
We find that not only does an Armored Compact Gyro actually exceed the survivability of a Heavy-Duty Gyro on the virtue of being harder to hit, but for more powerful engines they're actually still lighter. It would be like the issue of Diminishing Returns, but in reverse.
Armored Extralight Gyros are far less appealing however. Even with a 400-rated engine, any weight savings from using an XL Gyro are completely negated and then some by converting it into an Armored Component, and XL Gyros for 500-rated engines aren't even possible to build in the first place due to the fact that there is no room in the Center Torso to mount them. As for SuperHeavy mechs.... Yeah, don't even think about it.
Armored XL Gyros, by Engine Rating:
10 – 100: 3.5 Tons, 6 Slots
105 – 200: 4 Tons, 6 Slots.
205 – 300: 4.5 Tons, 6 Slots.
305 – 400: 5 Tons, 6 Slots.
405 – 500: 5.5 Tons, 6 Slots. Unmountable because Large Engine.
Armored Standard Gyro, by Rating:
10 – 100: 3 Tons, 4 Slots. (Worse than Heavy-Duty Gyro)
105 – 200: 4 Tons, 4 Slots.
205 – 300: 5 Tons, 4 Slots.
305 – 400: 6 Tons, 4 Slots.
405 – 500: 7 Tons, 4 Slots.
However, if you have no regard whatsoever for weight that goes absolutely nowhere, then you could always take a normal mech, and give it an Armored Heavy-Duty Gyro. Congrats, you just wasted tonnage that could be much better served elsewhere.
Armored Heavy-Duty Gyro, by Rating:
10 – 100: 4 Tons, 4 Slots.
105 – 200: 6 Tons, 4 Slots.
205 – 300: 8 Tons, 4 Slots.
305 – 400: 10 Tons, 4 Slots.
405 – 500: 12 Tons, 4 Slots.
P.S.: If any BattleTech Devs are reading this... Please don't do a Developer Level Errata to make Armored Compact Gyros impossible, unless you also plan on making Gyros not suck. Come on guys, Quarter-Ton rounding, or Half-Ton at the very least!
I would also suggest multiplying the Engine Rating, rather than the Gyro Weight, for the XL/Compact/Heavy-Duty calculations. Combined with Half-Ton Rounding, it would make things so much less broken...
Discord: Amaroq the Kitsune#1092
Telegram: @Lycanphoenix
MechEngine (Alpha) -- On Hiatus
The Scientist Caste has determined that time travel is dishonorable. |
AmaroqStarwind
04/09/18 04:55 AM
99.203.26.220
|
Oh, I actually completely forgot about Interface Cockpits... They are a full ton heavier than a standard cockpit, but they let you remove the Gyro entirely without consequences, so it no longer has to haunt builders... And when you kill the mech, a Power Armor pops out, so that's always a bonus.
Discord: Amaroq the Kitsune#1092
Telegram: @Lycanphoenix
MechEngine (Alpha) -- On Hiatus
The Scientist Caste has determined that time travel is dishonorable. |
Retry
04/09/18 12:34 PM
64.189.130.11
|
On Gyros:
Yeah, the Heavy-Duty ones kind of suck, it could use some looking at. Maybe just a 50% weight increase instead of a 100% weight increase like the Compact gyro would do some good.
(Off-topic, but the Compact Engine would also be much more appealing and useful if it was only 20-25% of the weight of a standard engine instead of the full 50%, which makes it 3x heavier than a similar XLE.)
Also, it's worth noting that an (un-armored) compact gyro doesn't really improve survivability much unless you actually stuff some equipment as crit-sinks in the center torso. Otherwise a crit on the center torso that "misses" the Gyro is just going to hit the engine which is also an extremely important component. And even then, it's basically a 2-in-3 chance that the crit causes either engine or gyro damage instead of a 5-in-6 chance.
On Interface Cockpits:
They're neat but impractical from a strategic standpoint, since your Mechwarriors will need holes drilled into their skulls to pilot the mech at all (unless you do add a gyro anyways), you need to introduce drugs to the warriors to protect from feedback or whatever, and the pilots go insane eventually anyways, which a rather high turnover and a lack of voluntary participants from all but the most rabidly devoted members of your faction (like the WoB Manei Dominis).
The pilots also tend to take damage themselves when the IS gets hit, so flanking lights and "crit-seekers" tend to be even deadlier than usual. Stuff like the Gestalt are interesting from a design standpoint but they're very quirky and rather impractical.
|
ghostrider
04/09/18 12:37 PM
66.74.61.223
|
I take it there are a lot of death matches in the games you deal with.
But as it was pointed out alot before hand, most do not deal with following the game restrictions like certain items were not made in some areas, or even time line.
The min/max of units seem to promote the issues of some things.
But it is interesting to see some of this.
And sadly to say, the interface cockpits sound like they are heading into lawsuit territory again. It sounds like robotech and the pilots having cyclones the pilots have access to.
But as I said. The neural helm is supposed to use the persons balance to keep upright. Four ton gyros do seem a bit odd.
|
AmaroqStarwind
04/09/18 04:04 PM
99.203.155.94
|
The Neurohelmet only shares a pilot's sense of balance to the mech (and also prevents the pilot from getting Motion Sickness). The size and weight of the gyro is primarily reaction disks/rings/spheres, magnetic grippers, etc... In order to actually impart force on the mech to keep it upright. Without something like a Direct Neural Interface, the pilot doesn't have enough fine control over the individual actuators to keep the mech upright without the use of reaction wheels.
As for the Interface Cockpit, it does seem to insoired more heavily by MechAssault 2 than on Genesis Climber Mospeada (the show that eventually became the third part of Robotech). As for lawsuit stuff, Harmony Gold is very likely to get head-critted in the near future, or at least engine-and-leg critted. Check the Sarna newsfeed for more information.
(And now I'm thinking about doing Robotech stuff in BattleTech again... Alexander Kerensky's Atlas versus a 1300+ year-old Breetai, anyone?)
However, powered armor or battlesuits jumping out of even bigger battlemechs is not a new concept in science fiction; while I cannot remember any specific examples off the top of my head, I have seen it in many places.
Back on the subject of in-game Gyro mechanics, I suggested some alterations over in the D8 BattleTech thread. That should help things be a little less broken overall.
Discord: Amaroq the Kitsune#1092
Telegram: @Lycanphoenix
MechEngine (Alpha) -- On Hiatus
The Scientist Caste has determined that time travel is dishonorable. |
|
|
Extra information
|
0 registered and 109 anonymous users are browsing this forum.
Moderator: Nic Jansma, Cray, Frabby, BobTheZombie
Print Topic
|
Forum Permissions
You cannot start new topics
You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled
UBBCode is enabled
|
Topic views: 6826
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
