ghostrider
05/01/18 02:59 PM
66.74.61.223
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The thought came up that the erppc has no minimum, yet the regular one does.
With the new abilities to use a lower power makes me wonder, why they haven't been able to get the normal ppc to 'focus' under ranges of 90 meters(3 hexes)?
I would think by now, it should have been done. Honestly, I would think the erppc would have more problems as it is pushing out more power. Don't mean that they should go with it, as I like the ppc series.
This should be available to the clans at least. That would put it at IS norms if you add a ton and crit for it. It would make the merchants rich as the IS would buy up all they can of it. No more minimum issues.
Now if you had to up the heat a little, then it would be questioned.
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AmaroqStarwind
05/01/18 03:08 PM
99.203.155.29
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I imagine that a "Focused PPC" produced using Clan Tech would quite literally just be a normal PPC without a minimum range, maybe with a 6/2 tonnage/crit profile. Still doing 10 damage for 10 heat.
Then I remember that the Clan Large Pulse Laser exists.
Discord: Amaroq the Kitsune#1092
Telegram: @Lycanphoenix
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Akalabeth
05/09/18 04:18 PM
75.155.167.106
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Quote:
With the new abilities to use a lower power makes me wonder, why they haven't been able to get the normal ppc to 'focus' under ranges of 90 meters(3 hexes)?
Because Battletech is a universe where weapons don't improve. The most you can hope for is an alternate weapon with drawbacks which doesn't invalidate the regular PPC.
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Requiem
05/09/18 10:30 PM
58.175.193.140
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Yes I agree, weapons need to improve within the game over time to reflect each companies / houses effort towards research and development.
Case in point - can the Inner Sphere weapons become as efficient as that of the Clans weapons (even after 100 years worth of Research and Development)?
there just need to be an updated weapons sheet - and the ability to purchase / upgrade packs - when and if they become available.
Requiem
Adelaide, Australia
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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AmaroqStarwind
05/10/18 04:25 AM
99.203.154.68
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Allowing things to improve over time would not be balanced.
And yet Clan technology and Primitive technology both exist. BattleTech is a franchise of hypocrisy.
I would not be surprised if the developers are secretly wishing that neither the Primitive nor Clan tech bases existed.
Basically everything in BattleTech that seems like it could be an improvement needs to have some horrible downside to offset its benefits. It's just the way BattleTech works.
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Telegram: @Lycanphoenix
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Akalabeth
05/10/18 06:41 AM
75.155.167.106
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Well I think the "no advancement" idea came about AFTER the clans were introduced, specifically after 3050-3058. That's why everyone loves the IS LB 10-X AC, it was introduced at time when the LB was just flat out better than the AC/10. Then later FASA was like oh snap, and the rest of the LB series came out significantly worse.
I have to wonder if Randall isn't the culprit behind it all. Advanced post-clan IS tech was introduced in the Field Manuals, and Randall was involved in their development from the start. I wonder if he didn't advocate this lateral tech development, because if he wasn't a proponent then why has it continued post-FASA?
Battletech's refusal to make anything obsolete after 3058 is the #1 reason why the rules are so bloated.
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ghostrider
05/10/18 05:10 PM
66.74.61.223
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The improvement over time has happened. Otherwise clantech would not exist.
And the fact they have stated normal weapons were improved by the clans but they do not use them as the advanced weapons are more beneficial states it was done. But only to the enemy of the innersphere.
The davion heat sinks are a good example. The writers wanted something good to fight for, but I am betting the realized it would unbalance the war long before the FC alliance was made. Some would say that it isn't possible for double sinks that use the same space and single ones would unbalance the game, but just replacing the normal 10 sinks for the engine would dramatically unbalance the game if only one faction had it. The Archer and Rifleman come to mind. No over heating problems using their major weapons consistently, with the Archer running out of ammo and never shutting down due to heat. And that is not saying the hot worlds wouldn't help the double sink carrying units.
It is highly unlikely that all the companies in the IS could not improve upon weapons, even with Comstar raiding the facilities to keep it from being released.
The only way I can see of weapons not being advanced for the IS, like clan weapons, that they have a huge stockpile of after they started the trail of refusal against the jaguars, would be if there is elements that are unknown or not in the IS area. There is nothing to even suggest this with the launchers half weight. It was said it was manufacturing tricks that allow it. Yet the IS has the Smoke Jaguars facilities, not only manufacturing but research information. So they should have the designs and how to make this stuff.
The bs of cost is just that. Bs. The IS would start working to make those weapons, no matter the cost. Even a warship price tag would be paid to equip all your units with clan tech in the next 10 years. Elite guards first, then spread.
I will have to reread the clan book to see if the normal weapons, which technically, the clans would have tossed as they had League tech to begin with, to see if they have the minimums still.
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Akalabeth
05/10/18 06:07 PM
75.155.167.106
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Quote:
The improvement over time has happened. Otherwise clantech would not exist.
As mentioned that was before Randall got involved.
It's interesting to note that the UAC and LB-X series for the Inner Sphere, as presented in the Tactical Handbook, are actually for the most part better than what they ended up being in the FIeld Manuals. Tactical Handbook is 94, Randall is 95, changed weapons came out later.
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ghostrider
05/11/18 03:53 AM
66.74.61.223
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The stupid thing about the er lasers is there is no extra weight for any except the IS large laser.
You almost have to ask how this is, and why it wasn't done sooner. The research all the tech companies that built the lasers had to have been researching longer ranges and/or more damage.
As for the clan pulse laser. Without going into story lines of someone getting all tech out there, most players that use IS mechs before clan Diamond Shark started selling them, is the fact, you didn't have access to them unless you killed a clan mech that had them.
Well those of us that play in the canon story time line.
And a few of us actually play with mechs that aren't the uber powerhouses that go around. It is more fun to actually have to think while playing, not just pump alpha strikes hoping it all hits. The original marauder and warhammer come to mind. Couldn't keep firing both ppcs at once.
I can understand the designers didn't want the ppc to be over powering the others, so a minimum range was put into it. Now in a game of armored combat, why the hell would you go into physical contact range?
It's more fun that way. Until you lose initiative or shut down. And using the mechs a little more consistently meant you didn't have a thousand back ups. So there was no changing out the mech from one combat to the next.
Like everything in life, there would be some changes to things like the minimum range, otherwise the er version should have the same. And that isn't taking into account of the new variants.
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AmaroqStarwind
05/11/18 12:08 PM
108.255.82.176
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Changing the Extended Range PPC to have a minimum range like the normal PPC, and then taking all of the Inner Sphere ER weapons and letting them produce the heat of their non-ER counterparts once they are within standard weapon range would make things more balanced against Clan energy weapons.
I also dislike how technology didn't improve past the Inner Sphere technology base in the Empires Aflame continuity, even with the Star League / Terran Hegemony merging into the Terran Supremacy and becoming the most powerful (and pissed off) interstellar superpower in existence, and still being around by the year 3090.
I mean, seriously. In an alternate timeline like that, you would think that they would at least have advanced to the equivalent of Interim Clan Tech, if not the equivalent of full Clan Tech, since the Succession Wars didn't happen.
In the canon timeline, the writers need to disengage whatever Galaxy-wide Anti-R&D-field they have set up and allow technology to actually advance in a semi-realistic fashion. And to be fair, they do have a couple unsugarcoated examples of obsolescence:
- ATMs -> iATMs
- Standard PPC -> Clan Large Pulse Laser
- TSEMP Cannon -> RISC Repeating TSEMP (it's two tons heavier, but that's not a big deal because you no longer have to carry two of them)
- LB 20-X AC -> HAG-20 (except for the part where Gauss weapons always blow up, but we already have a solution to that in the real world...)
- Swarm LRMs -> Swarm-i LRMs
- One-Shot Missiles -> Improved One-Shot Missiles
- Dead-Fire LRMs -> MRMs (Sort of: The LRM-5 is lighter than the MRM-10, and Dead-Fire SRMs still rock)
- Improved One-Shot MRMs -> Rocket Launchers
- Rocket Launcher 20 -> A pair of Rocket Launcher 10's (sorry, CGL, but you kind of walked right into that one)
- The existence of the Floatation Hull, Damage Interrupt Circuit, Heat Sink Override Kit, Enhanced Imaging and other weight-free modifications.
- Actuator Enhancement System versus Targeting Computer, for those light mechs that carry big guns, as well as those mechs that carry weapons which either can't be aimed or don't receive any bonuses from Targeting Computers period.
- Any mech that has enough room left to carry TSMs. Even if the mech doesn't normally have heat issues, heat sinks can be turned off. And there is also TSM-X if you are Heat Neutral, don't care about increased movement speed, and just want to beat the frak out of other mechs.
- Using an Interface Cockpit, since you no longer have to worry about a Gyro.
- The Full-Head Ejector System when combined with a Small Cockpit. Because the Life Support is harder to hit, the Ejector has increased reliability.
- Watchdog CEWS -> Nova CEWS
- (Clan) Partial Wings on 20-ton and Ultralight mechs, saving the weight of two Jump Jets and three Heat Sinks
- Compact Heat Sinks when you only use the heat sinks provided with the engine.
- Heavy-Duty Gyros -> Armored Gyros and Armored Compact Gyros
- Clan LRM-5 w/ Artemis IV FCS -> Streak LRM-5
- AC/5 and LB-5X -> Streak LRM-5. This also extends to larger autocannons, just use more launchers.
- Ultra AC/5 -> Two Streak LRM-5s.
- Small and Medium Chemical Lasers (on Mechs) -> Small and Medium Lasers with amplifiers.
- Standard PPC -> Light PPC w/ PPC Capacitor.
- Clan Small Pulse Laser -> Two Clan ER Small Lasers.
- ProtoMech AC/2 and ProtoMech AC/4 -> Streak LRM-5.
- ProtoMech AC/8 -> Large Chemical Laser, unless you're using special munitions.
- Autocannon Tracers -> Incendiary Munitions (until they blow up).
- LB-X Cluster versus Ferro Lamellar VTOLs -> Flak Rounds. Yes, a regression in tech yields better performance in this specific instance.
- Stealth Armor -> Void Signature System (Null Sig isn't quite obsolete because it doesn't require ECM)
- Heavy Ferro-Fibrous Armor: Just use Clan Ferro Fibrous. You don't save that much weight using Heavy FF.
- LRM-10, LRM-15, LRM-20 -> Two, Three and Four LRM-5s respectively.
- Conventional LRMs -> Semi-Guided LRMs.
- Conventional AMS -> Laser AMS, if you have the heat sinks for it.
Changes I want to see:
- ER Pulse Lasers shouldn't be so heavy and bulky, or inaccurate, they're just Clan X-Pulse Lasers, and while X-Pulse is a third party modification that just pumps more power through the laser, an ER Pulse Laser is supposed to have been designed a lot more carefully and elegantly. That means that X-Pulse is, technically speaking, better workmanship! So what the frak happened here?
- The Laser AMS should have been reduced to a half-ton at some point because of the invention of the Micro Pulse Laser.
- Streak Launchers should eventually be Indirect Fire capable, like iATMs are.
- The Inner Sphere should eventually reach Interim Clan Tech levels.
- Autocannons need to stop being so crappy. All Autocannons, not just standard ones.
- Semi-Guided / Narc / Artemis compatible LRMs should become standard, really.
- Since Void Sig is a thing, the slightly inferior Null Sig can stop hiding under the guise of lostech now.
- Since iATMs are a thing, regular ATMs should become an Inner Sphere weapon, or get upgraded from integral Artemis IV to integral Artemis V (equivalent to a Prototype Streak Launcher).
- Light Ferro Fibrous armor, Light Fusion Engines, and XL Gyros should become the new Standard Armor, Standard Engines and Standard Gyros for Clan mechs.
- Since Ferro Fibrous Armor is everywhere now... The technology in Acid (AX) SRMs can eventually be improved lose their weight and accuracy penalties, enabling them to enter more widespread use. Especially since Ferro Fibrous Armor (and Ferro Derivatives) is everywhere now.
- Why don't the Clans have a safer-but-less-effective version of Enhanced Imaging yet?
- Why isn't there a Light ECM or a Light C3 Slave?
- Why isn't there an Extended Range TAG?
Things that can be done now:
- Retro-Streak SRMs can be used a lot more often now that Streak LRMs and iATMs exist, and they can act as a force multiplier for AMS.
- The Ostscout IIC can be dropped from 35 Tons to 30 Tons by switching the 385 XXL and 11 Improved Jump Jets out for a 330 XL and 11 Standard Jump Jets (and it does have enough Walk MP to do it). This also saves enough weight to put some actual firepower and extra armor on it. If you're feeling really ballsy, you can try an XL Gyro as well. And of course, switch to Double Heat Sinks, with an engine that expensive, Single Heat Sinks don't help that much.
- If you have sufficient unused critical space and don't have any weight left over, even after using Endo Steel or what have you, try putting TSMs on your mech. You'll thank me later.
Discord: Amaroq the Kitsune#1092
Telegram: @Lycanphoenix
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ghostrider
05/11/18 05:24 PM
66.74.61.223
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Makes you wonder why missile launchers don't have artemis and the like already built into them removing the weight and extra crit.
If the League lasted until 3039, the tech levels should be higher then the clans. They started out with the higher tech and had the backing to really do research.
Part of having the advanced tech in everything, should have happened with the League. The caches people are finding should be the old non tech having units that were retired, as installing endosteel in a unit, is not worth the effort, when you can build a whole new unit from the ground up.
Not sure if the TSM would have come about if the League was still around by that time. Or it may have been better.
As with missiles, I would think they would have figured out the standard ones were a waste of time, money and space, and went with a larger missile. One with guidance as well as range. Maybe even a larger warhead as well, making say a single larger missile might do the damage of a full 5 pack, with only say 10 missiles for ammo per ton.
But then that removes having to get into physical range to use alot of them with any sort of efficiency.
It is funny that no one in the IS thought to push more power into a laser. The idea of a capacitor for the lasers like the ppc has is a very valid idea.
The example of the chemical lasers and the amps. I thought they wouldn't need it as the fusion engine is supposed to put out the power so they didn't need amp. ICE's needed them. Could you expand an explanation on this one?
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AmaroqStarwind
05/11/18 07:35 PM
108.255.82.176
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On ICE-powered and Fuel Cell powered units, an amplifier increases the mass of a weapon by 10%, but that is still much less than the mass needed for ammunition.
However, on vehicles and ProtoMechs, you literally need enough heat sinks to dissipate all of the heat produced by firing all of your energy weapons in one turn, or you can't mount those weapons at all. Ammunition-based energy weapons don't produce heat on vehicles and ProtoMechs, including Chemical Lasers.
Also, Large Chemical Lasers on BattleMechs produce less heat than regular Large Lasers.
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Telegram: @Lycanphoenix
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Maurer
05/15/18 06:34 PM
45.48.53.140
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Quote:
The thought came up that the erppc has no minimum, yet the regular one does.
With the new abilities to use a lower power makes me wonder, why they haven't been able to get the normal ppc to 'focus' under ranges of 90 meters(3 hexes)?
The reason a normal PPC had difficulty shooting at targets under 90 meters is due to a Field Inhibitor built into the weapon. Sci-Fi reasons as to why the Field Inhibitor is needed is to prevent the PPC from damaging itself from the high thermal and kinetic energy of the "man-made ball of lightning" often describe in the books. Realistic reasons was for balance reasons, an energy weapon with a long range and no ammo logistical needs. As for why the ER PPC doesn't have the minimum range...probably an added benefit from the new technology that boosts the range. My opinion is that they wanted the ER PPC to be a "technological marvel" with heat as the only down side and no one wanted to adjust the stats on BattleTech stock weapons without causing more problems or pissing off a whole bunch of players.
Edited by Maurer (05/15/18 06:35 PM)
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ghostrider
05/16/18 12:21 AM
66.74.61.223
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I would agree with that, except the clan's normal weapons use one less ton and one less crit to a minimum of 1. And with the story line being over 100 years in the future, with the clans being here over 50, there was no advancement in normal weapons.
Been too lazy to look up if they removed the minimums from the clans versions.
As I said before. I could understand some advances not happening because the IS lacks some special elements to do it. But this isn't like high tech things, such as Missile launchers being half weight.
I know it comes down to the developers actually figuring things out, that after even 50 years of research and having examples of ppc that don't have a minimum, something should be done.
Then again the AC issue can be used with this argument.
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Maurer
05/16/18 05:57 PM
174.210.18.254
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Most likely the reason for no advances in stand weapons is from a manufacturing stand point: The weapons work. Any change to the weapons would create a new type of weapon, hence why an AC-2 round manufactured at the start of Clan invasion would still have the same characteristics as on made 50 years later. Now if you made a new round shoot farther, most likely that new round won't work in older A/C-2s and would require designing a new A/C-2 gun to shoot that new round.
A more realistic comparison would be comparing a Model T to a standard passenger car such as a Toyota Corolla or Nissian Sentra. The more modern cars might be faster, more efficient, and have different technologies in it, but it is still a car: 4 wheels, a body, engine, and steering wheel.
"Captain! We're completely surrounded on all sides." - Kiff, Futurama
..."Excellent, then we may attack in any direction." - Zapp Brannigan, Futurama
"A fool fights a war on two fronts; only an idiot defends on one." - Fusilier
Edited by Maurer (05/16/18 05:58 PM)
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