Requiem
06/04/18 09:26 AM
58.175.193.140
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The 3050 Invasion of the Inner Sphere by the Clans included their overall aim to restore the Star League and allow them to redeem the morally corrupt inhabitants of the Inner Sphere.
However, we can see a great deal of the former (Restore “their version” of the Star League by force) however we never see any of the latter (Redeem the Morally Corrupt) in any of their works.
No Clan Leader attempted to open a dialog / propose a new way of thought / attempted to be a leader at all to anyone other than their own clan – I can say the majority of their leaders are quite hedonistic as to their view of how things should be.
We also note that many Clans made a point of finding Star League artefacts and preserving them for future true born generations.
We also know the Clans modified / supressed their own records of the former Star League so that it would conform to the new narrative they wanted their own people to adopt – the rules by which their society are governed. That is to say we all have a culture and cultural-norms are passed down from one generation to the next and are expected to be adhered to.
Thus I would like to ask the following – psychologically – how would a member of the Clan react when they find uncontroversial historical documents within the Inner Sphere that contradict with their pre-programmed view of what the Star League was meant to represent.
That is to say they stumble upon an egalitarian speech by Kerensky, for example.
Would they come to the same conclusion as Wolfs Dragoons and attempt to save the Inner Sphere or would they remain as Natasha Kerensky?
As we very rarely see a clans-person acting in a normal human manner …. As an individual.
Thus what I am attempting to say is this we have the Wardens and we have the Crusaders – two very different political and psychological positions – given that they both now are presented with the true meaning of what the Star League truly stood for – egalitarianism, fraternity, liberty, freedom, culture, artistic and scientific achievements – not the trappings of war ….. Why was there never anything written about clan desertions – and also extending this argument to its logical conclusion, why was there never a civil war between the clans?
As a Civil War between the two factions is the only true logical course of events between the two creeds – given that they both are Spartan communities in which the only way to settle an argument is when one side is dead and buried and the other triumphant in war?
Upon the return of Operation Serpent – would not each side be forced to reconsider their world view and act accordingly to their beliefs and not their programing?
Would not the story have benefitted from this – the writers resented the union of the FC – they gave them a Civil War to break them back to FS and LC – the Clans remain a too powerful a force within the Inner Sphere – why not destroy them also with a civil war at the same time?
A war over the very identity regarding who the Clans are:- crusaders (the warrior only) or wardens (the defender and the teacher) ….
There should have been a war to resolve this dichotomy …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Frabby
06/04/18 09:45 AM
79.224.69.23
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Clan culture collapsed into the Wars of Reaving along exactly those fault lines.
You could say that they were in a state of constant civil war, but it was regulated in the Clan fashion of minimal collateral damage for a long time. Everything they wanted, they could trial for, the military option was always present and often used among the Clans with little negative repercussions.
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ghostrider
06/04/18 05:54 PM
66.74.61.223
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The fact the clans were born out of the civil war the League forces had in the pentagon worlds.
Also the Ilkhan was that very leader you are suggesting never was. They directed the path of all clans, but did not get into how each clan would get there.
As for finding something the disagrees with clan history, they would view it as propaganda, or outright lies against their teachings. Generations were taught one way and one way only. There is no alternative teachings. Basically, they were brainwashed in their teachings.
The normal statement needs to be reminded, what is normal in the U.S.A is not normal in Saudi Arabia. The clans act normal according to their lifestyles. And they are all individual, otherwise blood names would not be something they seek out. The military doctrine has them following the discipline of following orders. Even outside military situations. Waste is not tolerated.
Did you not read how the destruction of the Smoke Jaguars came about? A clanner left the clans and became a spy for comstar to find the way back to the clan worlds.
And the concept of pirates does suggest some did rebel and was fighting against the concept of the clans. Not something you would think about, but it does happen.
Most of what you are suggesting was regulated with the clans own rules and laws. They fought to promote their views, yet neither side came out on top until the invasion. And then it was shown they were not ready for it. The brainwashing said you do not take the fight beyond the trials, and both sides had those that agreed in part with the other.
But this all goes to the fact the developers were trying to force new wars to keep selling books. Without war, what good is a war game?
Yeah I hate it, as it suggest money grabs. But they need to make money, and can't do it if they base the game time with real time.
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Cray
06/04/18 06:30 PM
97.101.136.19
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Quote:
Thus I would like to ask the following – psychologically – how would a member of the Clan react when they find uncontroversial historical documents within the Inner Sphere that contradict with their pre-programmed view of what the Star League was meant to represent.
They'd re-interpret it to mean what they wanted, or call it a fake.
Quote:
– and also extending this argument to its logical conclusion, why was there never a civil war between the clans?
Well...it's sort of hard to describe what counts as a "Clan civil war," but there are a number of activities that come close.
Some of the Clans have brutally suppressed their civilian castes for misbehaving and thinking they had an equal say in ruling the Clan. Lacking serious firepower, the civilians couldn't really wage their half of a civil war.
Among the Clans as a whole, there have been annihilations like that of Clan Wolverine. Depending on the source, Wolverines were accused of, basically, un-Clan-like behavior: not accepting Council decisions, supposedly using a nuke on a genetic repository, maybe being too democratic, etc. So, that's a situation where the Clans as a whole made a group effort to destroy one of their number.
Then there's the War of Reaving, which started around the time of the Jihad and led to the Clan home worlds ceasing contact with the Inner Sphere. That closely fits the description of a civil war, as it pitted large factions within the Clan home worlds against each other to "purify" Clan society.
Quote:
Why was there never anything written about clan desertions
Many of the warriors found in the Dark Caste would qualify as deserters.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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AmaroqStarwind
06/04/18 07:44 PM
13.84.155.127
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They could always shift the focus to the RPG side of things, or to stuff dealing with other groups of humans in the galaxy. Or do more timeskips.
Or maybe they should stop trying to play it safe all the time, and take a risk or two. We were promised Aliens with the Explorer Corps stuff. Instead, we got a single book, because they wanted to play it safe.
When you don't take risks, things start to stagnate and fall apart anyway, which is what led to all of the stuff with the FedCom Civil War, the Jihad, the Wars of Reaving, the Dark Age... it's repeating the same things over and over because that's what they know will sell, but in the end a lot of that still gets lukewarm reception at best.
They should try something new, even if they don't think it will do well, because even if it seems super risky (and potentially controversial), it would at least show the fanbase that they have a willingness to experiment.
Discord: Amaroq the Kitsune#1092
Telegram: @Lycanphoenix
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ghostrider
06/04/18 10:48 PM
66.74.61.223
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The idea of shifting to the rpg side of it should have been done more then what they have. But the lack of it tends to have people ask why bother? Only thing that you need is mechs and skill to use them. Even vehicles aren't that big, though I could see BA being more appealing to the masses.
Hmmm. A civilian form of BA. One for the rich to use to escape assassination attempts. Illegal to own, but that doesn't stop the rich, criminal, or important people from getting and using them. Even use it to run the criminal empire... Hell they own battle mechs so why not?
The alien idea runs into issues of what do they look like? How did they develop things like lasers and FTL? Are they a single race, or an alliance of several? How do you deal with them, and once/if you do, what do you do with any that isn't killed, ie the females and children. That is a moral side I doubt the writers want to even touch.
The issue I have with most games that deal with aliens is they all seem to have cloaks. Which destroys games quickly as your forces will get them at some time, and it is bs that every one you get cuts out at the wrong time. Now a good camoflague might work, with it being a natural thing. But then use of armor would void it. Natural armor only goes so far, like a rhino hide.
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Requiem
06/05/18 01:15 AM
58.175.193.140
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Could there / should there have been a Clan Civil war in the IS post Operation Serpent - they had lost - the home worlds have virtually kicked them out - would it not seem plausible at this stage that one side would blame the other (Wardens / Crusaders) - ergo. war?
Could there have been a Dark Caste within the IS and if so could they have gone mercenary against their former breather-in?
As for civilians fighting back - Spartacus comes to mind as well as other insurgents (eg. Qunitus Various .... give me back my legions..... learn they ways then use them against them) - there are other ways of fighting that do not include weapon systems - poison comes to mind - when you look at the vast population differences between warrior and civilian if the civilians decide to revolt once and for all yes there would be mass casualties however could the military remain in power when their entire population is against them?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/05/18 02:56 AM
66.74.61.223
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The civilians fighting back issue needs to understand the brainwashing all the clanners got. And the fact the warriors could kill civvies and not get punished for it, especially in a riot. With that, weapons were not permitted in civvie hands. Punishable by death. From the start. Now courts needed.
Now for the kicker. Do you think they would stand a chance against elementals?
Even outside of their armor, they would still not worry so much about the unarmed, and untrained in combat normal population?
The civil war you want to suggest doesn't happen for several reasons. One is the writers. Though we know they don't like continuity in the history.
But it seems you miss one major point with the clans in this, yet point it out in another thread. They are not one big happy family. Every clanner and every clan think they are superior, and will not follow others just because they were told to. The Jaguars and Falcons were enemies which worked together to show up the wardens, but in the end, each would have betrayed the other to make sure they were on top. With this, how could you expect them to all gang up on the wardens?
Some were more afraid of being absorbed by the others, so would resist any actions that would make their enemies stronger.
With this, they are more likely to attack a weakened Falcon base, then help them wipe out a weak warden.
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Requiem
06/05/18 08:50 AM
58.175.193.140
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Plot-twist: Alt History on the Clans
Many totalitarian reshimes have/had secret organisations working against the state that controlled them, The Lyran’s had Heimdall and the Skye separatists, Kurita had Rasalhague and the Black Dragon’s – would it not also be too far a stretch to believe that the Clan’s had theirs. Therefore the following transpires ….
We know that the Exodus fleet were from the Star League Army and their dependants – the Star League was a very egalitarian state – the Clan’s military and people were cowered by Kerensky’s son (Stalin in all but name) – except for the Wolverines who were driven from clan space.
But what if a proportion of their population never left – they just hid in plain sight within the civilians of the remaining Clans.
Watching, waiting for the right time to strike – using the Clan’s own military industries to produce new weapon systems to combat the Clans – and at the same time finding and training likeminded people – who have one aim to over throw their oppressors and return the clans to their true roots that of the star league army they once were.
Thus over time they have amassed a huge stockpile of weapons and people all hidden away – all the highly trained warriors and the weapons need to fight this war.
With the Arrival Operation Serpent the fall of Huntress – Victor’s victory (trial of refusal) – at this stage the people see this as their time to rise up thus a full blown Civil War Erupts – Victor now finds himself and that of Operation Serpent within the Civil war – Deciding to help them as their pleas to return to Star League of old have won his support – Calling for reinforcements from the IS this time in approx. 9 months a whole new invasion fleet arrives from the IS to invade Clan Space ……. However in the interim wars breakout throughout Clan Space as this new hidden army fights for its very survival against their oppressors ….
(It has all the hallmarks of what the current writes like – a hidden army popping out to sow chaos – is it such a stretch to think the editors could have adopted this as their story line at one time?)
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/05/18 01:42 PM
66.74.61.223
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The scientist caste was working against the warrior caste in the clans. They had their own warriors as well as making genetic unions not authorized by the clan leadership.
The rebuilding of the Falcons after the refusal war with the wolves deals with part of this.
And the 'hidden' army fighting the clan leadership was the dark caste, though how much power they had is questionable.
But if you want to use an invading army, the Wolverines (Minnesota Tribe) could return.
The story line about the formation of the clans was everyone was tired of war, so they allowed the experiment of Nicholas to proceed, and it showed promise. Where some would be cowered by it, most seemed to accept the changes. As with the story line, the Wolverines were driven out for reverting back to the anything to win, including using weapons that made the lands unsuitable for all.
The most likely event to set of the so desperately wanted civil war, could well be in the clan council. The Crusaders decide they had enough and just outright attack the wardens. Which in turn would splinter the Crusaders down the line, as it would show certain clans would not honor the agreements preventing the clans from becoming like the IS, and that would include removing the weaker ones. As it looks like the Reaving wars did that at a later time. It would not surprise me this came about because of the two more powerful warden clans left the clans, freeing up the crusaders to move.
The only real thing is the time frame it happened in.
With the factions, it could be said they were in a civil war their entire history, yet it was limited by their rites and following their doctrine.
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AmaroqStarwind
06/05/18 02:47 PM
99.203.27.32
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Quote:
The idea of shifting to the rpg side of it should have been done more then what they have. But the lack of it tends to have people ask why bother?
It could draw in customers from the Dungeons and Dragons, Pathfinder and Shadowrun crowds.
Quote:
Only thing that you need is mechs and skill to use them. Even vehicles aren't that big, though I could see BA being more appealing to the masses.
Hmmm. A civilian form of BA. One for the rich to use to escape assassination attempts. Illegal to own, but that doesn't stop the rich, criminal, or important people from getting and using them. Even use it to run the criminal empire... Hell they own battle mechs so why not?
Exoskeletons for everyone! 
Quote:
The alien idea runs into issues of what do they look like? How did they develop things like lasers and FTL? Are they a single race, or an alliance of several? How do you deal with them, and once/if you do, what do you do with any that isn't killed, ie the females and children. That is a moral side I doubt the writers want to even touch.
There's a solution to every writing problem. You just gotta find the right people and the right inspiration. You could also go the route of keeping certain things very ambiguous starting out, not only adding to the feelings of mystery and intrigue central to anything exploration-focused, but also giving yourself more time to flesh out the details and gather intelligence on what the players are most likely to respond well to.
And for moral stuff specifically, the writers could always handle things from the perspective of the aliens. Maybe the aliens have something that the humans want, and the humans have something the aliens want. Maybe the aliens mistake the human explorers as invaders at first, and react defensively, sparking a conflict by complete accident. Also, to delay the inevitable moral/ethical dilemmas, have the conflict end in a statement without a clear winner or loser. And if they want to get super immersive, perhaps all of these alien races have their own internal politics to deal with, since humans are not the only species that is split into multiple countries.
Quote:
The issue I have with most games that deal with aliens is they all seem to have cloaks. Which destroys games quickly as your forces will get them at some time, and it is bs that every one you get cuts out at the wrong time. Now a good camoflague might work, with it being a natural thing. But then use of armor would void it. Natural armor only goes so far, like a rhino hide.
Easy solution: Just make their technology roughly equivalent to what the humans have, worse in some areas and better in others, and only a few things being radically different. For instance, they might use Alcubierre warp engines as opposed to Kearny-Fuchida hyperspace jump engines.
In the case of cloaking specifically, just make it identical to existing human stealth tech. Just because they're aliens doesn't make them exempt from BattleTech's laws of physics.
Discord: Amaroq the Kitsune#1092
Telegram: @Lycanphoenix
MechEngine (Alpha) -- On Hiatus
The Scientist Caste has determined that time travel is dishonorable. |
Requiem
06/06/18 01:03 AM
58.175.193.140
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2nd Alt. History -What about a Clan Civil War by those forces in the IS – the Falcon Wolf war expands unpredictably to include all the remaining IS forces - each taking a side of either Warden / Crusader ….
The fall-out from this war would also be interesting to think about ….
Also what would happen if the new Army of the Star League came in on the side of the Wardens?
It would take a massive cultural shift in their current thinking …. But what if a new leadership came to the fore with the willingness to accept these additional forces …
What an interesting war this could eventuate …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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csadn
06/06/18 02:41 AM
50.53.22.4
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My personal favorite notions:
1) The Davions find that missive from Kurita Minoru to Kurita Jinjiro stating that John Davion was intended to succeed to the First Lordship should anything happen to the Camerons (p. 54 of the first edition _House Davion_ s-b), and release it; cue total insanity....
2) Someone unearths a book of Star League Property Law, and finds the section on "abandoned property"; then points out to the Clans "according to the laws of the nation you purport to uphold, you have no legal claim to the Inner Sphere, and haven't since Aleksandr left"
CF
Oregon: The "Outworlds Alliance" of the United States of America
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Requiem
06/17/18 06:23 AM
58.175.193.140
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Levity is unbecoming such an important subject ….
When a society is treated in such a way as that they understand the point of view of the subservient, this is how you will ensure a future civil war.
The view that there could never have been a civil war because the Clans citizens had been so indoctrinated over many years borders on the ludicrous.
How can a society remain in a subservient role from one generation to the next?
Are not societies a product of their history?
Are not the Clans a product of the Star League - Amaris – Kerenski – The Initial Wars that formed the Clans?
How can a society be considered to be formed with cohesion when the foundation is built upon nightmare.
Was not the initial decision that the Clans were to be ruled by all levels of society equally.
And when this egalitarian view was dashed upon the rocks and the Clan’s civilians made subservient to all the whims of their masters – that of the warrior class.
Then further humiliated with the loss of the ancestral heritage … that of their last name I ask now how could so many suffer so much and still remain subservient.
Surely the spark of vengeance is lit …. vengeance that can only end in the destruction of the Eugenics program … the symbol by which their masters (like the Kings of old) use as their evidence as to their right to rule ….. for all time ….
Consider this with eyes wide open, free from the propaganda by which the warrior caste is viewed on its own ... view the society as a totality ....
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/17/18 04:36 PM
66.74.61.223
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The history says the initial civil war on the pentagon worlds was so horrible, most were ready to do what ever it took to get peace and remain that way.
A military dictatorship came about with a twist. Each clan followed their own ways of doing alot of things, with military fights being able to override decisions others did not like.
Now with being in the caste system for 250+ years, who is going to remember what it was like in the IS? Freedoms were handed down for generations, so the right to protest didn't exist. The military was within it's right to just fire on the crowds. Most avoided this as the crowds tended to do things like grow food.
Any sort of planning against them was dealt with in a harsher manor then the DC.
The clans do not follow anything we have today as they were isolated for that entire time. Most did not bring much with them when the SLDF left the IS. No room. So your photos and Trinkets were not taken with you. It was said they left some behind because the lacked the room for them. Teaching was done with specific history according to each clan. The left out alot of information dealing with the IS, except to make it sound like they were all a bunch of drunken bandits running amok in heaven.
The initial decision was all clans have a voice in the grand council. There was nothing set up, to my knowledge, that each caste was equal in how the clan ran.
From the way things look to be going, the civil war that happened to form the clans is missing from the data. The SLDF brought the same issues that the IS had, because of national pride and prejudice. They nearly wiped out the entire pentagon worlds, according to the books.
Maybe this might help. Think of the clans like a cult. That is how the people were brainwashed ages ago, and it continued, well it is still on going in the game.
This is not saying all like the idea of the clans that are stuck there. The dark caste seems to be the only real freedom in the clans, yet they are still following the main clan ideas. The warriors rule, and the others do as they are told. Granted, they may not have to worry about offending a warrior and being killed for it.
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Requiem
06/17/18 08:56 PM
58.175.193.140
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QUOTE: “The history says the initial civil war on the pentagon worlds was so horrible, most were ready to do what-ever it took to get peace and remain that way”.
I agree … but how can you build a society that is built upon a culture of what-ever it takes … a cultural norm that is passed down from one generation to the next?
QUOTE: “The initial decision was all clans have a voice in the grand council. There was nothing set up, to my knowledge, that each caste was equal in how the clan ran”.
Missing the point, Nicholas wanted a harmonious society between trueborn and freeborn (refer below)?
Book – The Clans Warriors of Kerensky No. 1709 Pg. 9-10-11
- “… remodel society by removing cultural bias … based on merit and ability rather than parentage. It is ironic that his descendants revised his intentions, espousing the superiority of select bloodlines”.
- “Nicholas created the ultimate meritocracy … declaring … If there is no unity, nothing can be achieved”
- “Nicholas Kerensky’s most brutal act … destruction of family units … encouraging fostering …”
- All of this for … “in the hope that trueborn and freeborn would form a harmonious society with no divisions”.
What did he get?
Book 1st Somerset Strikers Pg. 43 note this was written August 13, 3050
“…. What I have seen of the Clans … proves that their entire society is inimical to all the values and traditions that we hold dear. They have no concept of freedom, individuality, or self-determination. They classify people …..with the most stratified and class-bound societies. The Clans divide people into five castes: warrior, scientist, merchant, technician, and labourer. Each caste is ranked according to its value to society, as the Clans understand value, placing the warrior caste at the top of the ladder and descending in order to the labourer caste. Though this system appears to have the virtue of assigning everyone a definite niche in life, in practice it devalues everyone outside the warrior caste. ….. the value of each caste is measured solely by the worth of its function to the warriors. The labourers, who attend to the day-to-day running of society, are regarded as little better than livestock …. The Jade Falcons believe that anyone born or placed into a given caste is by nature suited only to that caste and cannot possibly function anywhere else. ….. Such rigid thinking, with no concessions to individual wants and needs make a mockery of the ideal of freedom held up by the ancient Star League ….”
Nicholas should have understood civil engineering … more philosophy …. more history …. When building a house on sand it cannot stand!
Clans are like a cult? … but even in cults did not people leave and over time regain their lives …. How many cults self-destructed due to their ideology? (Back to the Reaving War?)
What I am going to compare them to now may upset many people (sorry in advance –if you do get upset easily stop reading) but I believe this must also be considered as an alternate point of view ….
Were there not a group of people taken from one country (with no goods only memories) and forced to work in another country by violent masters imposing their will upon them … they do what they are told to do … did not these people retain much of their former culture through the transfer of oral history and did not many rise up to fight their oppressors only to be put down violently … did not many flee to safety only to return as part of a larger army to set their people free!
Why can we not make these comparisons between the Clan’s civilians and that of these people?
It is a much closer example of the Clan’s existing society than that of a Cult …. Or do you disagree? And why?
In my opinion this should have been the model by which the writers should have written the Twilight of the Clans …. ie it should have been based upon the American Civil War … from despair … hope and freedom and finally redemption ….
Do you agree?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/17/18 09:35 PM
66.74.61.223
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The issue with the clans comes from people's willingness to do the new system without much fighting to it. Or so the books history goes. I can't think of the book right now.
With the creation of the clans, Alexander was trying to create a society that is impossible to make. One without strife or conflict. The trials was supposed to allow the basic human nature to express itself without destroying cities and even planets. And before it is said, the fights in cities were forced by the IS, as they hid and defended from them.
I was using the cult as an example of the brainwashing that was done. The warriors were supposed to be the elite of humanity. They found out the hard way, they were good, but not the ultimate warriors they thought they were. The civilians found out not all worlds were paradises, and seemed to realize the rumors and whispers of what freedom is, caused issues that later blossomed into the civil war scenario.
Gonna have to look up the name, but the Kurita leader on Tancradi had said about sending is good into the clans would destroy them. It looks like it did.
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Requiem
06/18/18 06:42 AM
58.175.193.140
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QUOTE: “The issue with the clans comes from people's willingness to do the new system without much fighting to it”
Book – The Clans Warriors of Kerensky No. 1709 Pg. 12 – ….the people’s willingness to become clans?
- the use of “The Coursing” and “Thamzing”
- “Nicholas Kerensky would do anything to ensure his new society’s survival. Brutal situations called for brutal measures. The individual – at least, the non-military individual – would be far less important than the clan”.
- “The sheer brutality of the postliberation months prompted some within the Clans to revise their opinions of Nicholas. While they agreed that the warlord should be punished, torture and degradation went against everything they stood for. They feared Nicholas would become another Adolf Hitler, Mao Tse-tung or Stefan Amaris ….”
- “Nicholas feared (probably correctly) that his grip on the Clans was slipping, and flexed his muscles as ilkhan against the main opposition to his authority: Clan Wolverine.”
Rather than calling it a ‘willingness to join’ would not other more interesting words correctly describe the people’s‘willingness’ to become part of Nicholas’ great social experiment …. such as coercion through terror, violence and victimisation ….
Alexander…… don’t you mean Nicholas?
Suppressing the basic human nature …. Have you heard the story of the two wolves that are within all humans, one evil and one good … and you are who you are due to which one you feed ….
Which one do you think the clans feed?
QUOTE: “… the fights in cities were forced by the IS, as they hid and defended from them”.
Question … how much restraint was used by these Clan warriors to not follow the IS forces into the city … none! … no restraint whatsoever, so their willingness to preserve society / cities / people …. now can be said to be a non-issue … can it not be said that a more accurate statement of the Clan warrior is that they would do … ‘anything’ …. to win.”
So now the Clan’s civilians are brainwashed? ….. not likely …. investigate abusive relationships and the signs that this is occurring … this is closer to the point ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
06/18/18 08:38 AM
58.175.193.140
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Second Thoughts … History that could be used as a comparison when understanding the Clan Society …
Have a read of how and why the Magna Carta was established – this is the most important document in the known world as to the freedoms it provides all. That of the disputes regarding the Dukes and that of the King …
Then look at how the serfs were treated by their lords (taxes, controlling their movement, controlling how and for whom the work for etc.)
Then consider how the Guilds perpetuated the class system, through their guild master and the payment of the honorarium to the Lord of the area. The Guild restricting members and through the use of Guild laws restricted everything you did throughout your working life …
Given time and the knowledge as to the clauses this document contained and we have the “taxation” uprising of the peasants … (over time the uprising of the Clan Citizens)
Given time and the rights given to merchants we begin to see some of the freedoms we now take for granted ….. (a golden age of Clan people who have returned to the egalitarian values of the Star League)
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/18/18 12:40 PM
66.74.61.223
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And where do you go if you fail or even succeed? Unless the entire system rose up, which some were happy to be where they were, at once, you would have alot of dead caste members. There wasn't a threat that you and your family would die, but a promise. At least the Jade Falcons did it. Not sure about others like the Ghost Bears. But then they were not as harshly treated, so it may be they wouldn't have the issues.
As for the warden/crusader thoughts, this would be more likely. The egotistical clan khans, would definitely decide their thoughts were the only proper ones for the clans, but that would stop them as well. No matter how good you think you are, taking on multiple clans at once was not going to happen. So even if you stomped out the wardens, you had to deal with the other crusaders to be on top. Much like the piranha principal. So you slowly expanded, as that meant the others would be losing ground.
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Requiem
06/18/18 06:02 PM
58.175.193.140
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QUOTE: “And where do you go if you fail or even succeed?”
Forward ….. much like English history …. Richard (the Lion-heart), his brother John (whom had the Magna Carta forced upon him) …. To the freedoms of our society that we have now ….. how about converting from a military force to that of a merchant - trade … a return to the Star League? …. Is this not the ultimate goal of the game?
This will require multiple wars to get there though as many will attempt to take control and will need to be put down …. Etc.
I did make the point they would not be alone when they rise up (much like the American Civil War) …. The IS will stand with them Operation Serpent to start off with …. So taking on multiple Clans at once … not a problem … and would not the wardens be more likely to support the uprising of their ‘serfs’ against the Crusaders?
Quote: “the Jade Falcons did it” and “…. “so it may be they wouldn't have the issues”.
It?
Issues
QUOTE: “The egotistical clan khans, would definitely decide their thoughts were the only proper ones for the clans, but that would stop them as well.”
Ummm …. No …. Egotistical leaders are more likely to ensure their edicts are enforced, no matter what, and no matter what the cost to the people they are supposed to leading …. Stalin and oh so many more? Does not Egotistical mean a lack of acceptance of the Law of the land – it becomes my (the leader’s) way only …. And no one can object, at all …?
Ah yes, the Piranha Principle ….. very much like that of the Domino Principle ….
So you believe the Crusaders win …. Fighting the IS, those Wardens Supporting their ‘serfs’, my idea of what the Dark Caste should be and that of the Clan people themselves.
Remember we are trying to say that ‘the story’ should be modelled upon either the English History (Magna Carta onwards) and/or the American Civil War …..
Or do you want to reverse these wars outcomes?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/18/18 06:28 PM
66.74.61.223
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You do realize operation scorpion was also against the IS?
They were going to shut down all HPG's. Not sure if they planned to back that up with military strikes or not.
That is when, I believe Focht shot Walterly.
The main issue with the clans civilians revolting is time away from real freedom. They were all taught to distrust, even hate anyone in the IS. This has been taught to generations of people. Same with their place in life.
Other then the dark caste, any that rebelled had no where else to go. Most were still on the home worlds, where news of what is going on, never reached the IS.
Only the clans had the HPG's in that network. There was no hacking into it, nor was there any indication, other then hitting the Jaguars, about how the population was treated. It was all hear/say up until that point. Same with the clan civilians. The IS was a paradise. They backed the military so they could go in and claim these euphoric paradises for themselves. The merchants might try to sneak in information, but the military would be sure to execute those they found of doing so.
So an egotistical leader would not want to enforce his ideas on those around him? They had the lower castes locked into their lives, now it would be time to show other clans they are wrong. My clan is the only one that is right. The other clans would not accept someone that has went against the system. You are dezgra when you do so. Otherwise you risk your clan having issues. So again. Where do you go? Or run to if that helps?
Should be modelled tells me the understanding of the clans still isn't there. You are basing their response on something on earth, yet their culture is completely different. Maybe the year travel time isn't sinking in. Could be the lack of any one speaking out about the conditions living long afterwards is missing. Or the fact generations have been taught that this is the way life is. You don't like it, then insult a warrior. They will end your life rather quickly. Most would put you on trial and show the others your treachery to the clan.
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Requiem
06/18/18 07:46 PM
58.175.193.140
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QUOTE: “The main issue with the clans civilians revolting is time away from real freedom. They were all taught to distrust, even hate anyone in the IS. This has been taught to generations of people. Same with their place in life”.
Sorry this dog don’t hunt …. Can I go back to my above argument regarding a group of people taken from one country (with no goods only memories) and forced to work in another country by violent masters imposing their will upon them … they do what they are told to do … they were all taught their place in life …. And yet they did rise up and they did bring down that abomination ….
As for no-where else to go ….hidden world … if it is good enough for WOB then it is good enough for Dark Caste ….as for news …. When Operation Serpent arrives could they not have hijacked their inter world communication and forced through a message of liberation …. This message could have reached many worlds it is possible …
Also what about the merchants … Diamond Shark … could they have smuggled back information as to the Clans in the IS / how the IS people Live / unsanctioned goods (such as films / TV serials etc)…. an unvarnished and truthful account … then you just let rumour spread the information throughout all the clans … as one copy of a TV show becomes thousands spread throughout the clan population on the back market …once seen will give people ideas they never had before?
Egotistical … what? ….yes, all Khans want to dominate all the other Clans …
Would not accept them? ….But this is what a Khan is, this is their basic psychological profile … case in point The Bears Khan, serfs you no longer had the right to vote … all Khans, I must prove my martial superiority over my rival …. Send in a Galaxy … trial of ….? This is the quintessential egotistical Clan Leader ... they run rough shot over everyone else’s opinions ….. requests … life … without a care in the world. (Serfs no respect whatsoever - warriors are the only ones they would listen to ... )
Oh yes ‘Show Trials” …. Yes this worked out so very well for Hitler (post Valkyrie) and Stalin (all the time he was in power) …. Another reason why Clan Serfs hate warriors …. So we are now back to calling them “Ducks” or are they the Clans with elements of “ducks” added at their inception?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/19/18 12:34 AM
66.74.61.223
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Were there other countries around to run to? Help them? Even apply pressure on the abducting country to let them go?
As said before. The story line has the entire SLDF so tired of war, they were willing to do anything to stop it. As there has not been any instances of a colony on even mars, so after 250 years of isolation, normal psycho analyzing isn't possible.
A bee hive might be something to compare it too. Each person has their place in it.
Some do not like the choice, but there isn't a labor board, or union you can go to in order to fix it.
A few do rebel and join the dark caste. Which in the books suggest is much larger then the clan leaders thought in the invasion.
Hidden world. That assumes you can just jump a transport and go where ever you like. Jump ship required. And that doesn't include knowing where it is. If you do, then it isn't hidden.
And once you get there, you pray that someone else has it set up so you can live there, as starting from scratch is not easy, and you do need some knowledge to make things work. Techs might know how to fix a fusion engine, but not how to build shelter or farm Hunting is an option if you got out with more then just your cloths.
The Camanche Cabaleros actually says Chandy Kurita, the person who hired him sent back such good with the Diamond sharks for just that reason. Novel, yes. Supposed to be canon, but that is questionable at times.
The dominate line sounds much like the FC thread. Hanse would rather destroy the CC, and gain the prestige of having done so. Well in the clans there is no political first lord. It is the Ilkhan that gets to tell all the rest what to do. The only reason why he couldn't in the invasion was too many would oppose him just to make sure he didn't try it with them.
The clans do no go out of their way to kill their people for nothing. They do so in response to the civilians doing something they are not supposed to do. As for wiether it is believed they have a good legal reason or not is up to the clan leadership. Except for the Jade Falcons, I really don't know of any other clans repeating that. And it was in response to a revolt type of scenario. They demanded rights, and the Falcons shut them down. Harshly. Using the real world assholes is getting old. If you don't comprehend the clans, then step back.
Show trials? It isn't that someone had the wrong hair color. It is the person violated the laws that all know would get them killed. Capital punishment is valid.
Wither we think littering is a valid reason or not, if the laws everyone lives by says it is, then you do not litter.
Otherwise you could say the entire world is like them.
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Requiem
06/19/18 03:37 AM
58.175.193.140
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Quote: “Were there other countries around to run to? Help them? Even apply pressure on the abducting country to let them go?”
Suggest a history book ….this is an indictment upon the education system ….
People were tired of war therefore they traded their humanity for their security? …. No I don’t think so … remember there was once a war called the 100 years war …. people fight for their liberties they don’t just say I’m tired who cares the war goes on and on ? (Ireland ring a bell or two)
As for being isolated for 250 years … therefore not understanding …. What about all the explorations conducted by Ships under Sail …. How often did they find lost communities … even now a lost tribe may be found in the deep jungles of South America, therefore yes it is possible to psychoanalyse them.
Remember there are people who undertake training in either cultural or/both social Anthropology and the books are not, repeat not, canon….
Comparing people to bees (drones + a queen) and how is this even relevant?
Can anyone make an assumption as to when the hidden world was established? … it could have been during the Wolverine incident … a railroad to freedom … they could have established all the bases etc and a hidden means of transferring people to this world(s).
Why make assumptions about me …. cannot I have a mind of my own that came to a different conclusion?
I have yet to read anything that has disputed my analysis so far – so if you disagree tell me why you disagree from an analytical perspective …
Show Trials …. history book again…..it is where the state puts you on trial before the cameras … then to be shown to the people … to remind the people who is in charge usually on jumped up charges / a kangaroo court … where the verdict is predetermined and usually ends in capital punishment ….
QUOTE: “Wither we think littering is a valid reason or not, if the laws everyone lives by says it is, then you do not litter.”
Remember the American alcohol prohibition?.... it is illegal to get a drink … that went well for the entire American Society, didn’t it? … Organized crime etc
Remember what Thomas Marik said, “When laws are hollow and they cannot support the human spirit they must be disregarded!”
A truth now as it was written then…
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/19/18 11:43 AM
66.74.61.223
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You brought up the point of castes being equal, then losing their rights. So they could well have agreed, and found out later, they were lied to.
Other then stealing weapons, how is a rebellion supposed to fight? They need a steady supply of weapons especially ammo, and we are not talking the bulky tanks of today. Mechs are far more able to deal with revolts. Firebombs and crowbars just don't do much to mechs. There is no one that will supply them with those items. And each clan would react according to their leaders. A compete revolt in all the clans timed at once would not happen.
It seems being millions of miles away from any other civilization has not sunk in. No one visited them except for the comstar explorers which set off the debate for invading the IS. ALL of them were taken by military, and I doubt any, other then the scientist caste knew about them. No way for them to pervert the masses.
The prohibition would be a good example if it wasn't a fact, you would die for doing it. Not sure about jails in the clans as I haven't seen references to them. The brig being the only thing, and that being military.
I would think they have something to hold those that break minor laws.
The one post said conceiving a society like the clans was difficult. It may be, because there is no real world example to run with. All rebellions have the safety net of the people being able to flee. Or get help from others. Even foreign fighters coming in to assist. There was none of that in the clans.
It would be like saying all who own a gun will use it to commit a crime.
A colony on mars would have people's freedoms given up so all can survive. Revolting is possible, but where do you get supplies? After a few generations of this, it becomes accepted.
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Requiem
06/19/18 06:55 PM
58.175.193.140
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Unless Nicholas kept his plans for the Clans a secret, even from his brother, then yes the Clans Citizens did know that Nicholas’ original intention for the Clans was violated by the second ilKhan of all the Clans as well as all the Khans of the Clans at the same time …
Just like the WOB, a hidden world(s) together with hidden R&D and production facilities? …. Stealing weapons would be very difficult, however taking a copy of memory core and sending it on to their cell leader … then it slowly finds its way to the hidden world for implementation in their weapon production facilities is plausible ….. therefore they are preparing for a future war with their oppressors …. Also there should be warehouses on the Clan home worlds full of weapons …. Would you expect a clan warrior to transfer these from production to storage and who transfers them from the warehouses to the warriors bases? …. A labourer (thus they have access for either a terrorist explosion of Clan Weapons as well as stealing if they are quick enough during the first couple of hours of the Civil war …. Denying you enemy weapons, make yourself stronger …..)
Being millions of miles ‘has’ sunk in … again cultural / social Anthropology – psychology – and even historians – archaeologist would have an understanding of the Clans…… it is not a stretch of the imagination – they have retained many of the basic truths that we all hold within us …. Remember President Kennedy’s speech … we all breath the same air, we all love our children … the are many truths that underpin all societies, they do not change from one society to the next … they simply are.
As for perverting the Clans (don’t you mean using propaganda – have a look at one of the most early form of this and perhaps the best as it is even used today as an example as to how propaganda can change the masses perceptions of leader – Leni Riefenstahl’s Triumph of the Will) … This occurs post invasion of the IS, as we do need Clan Diamond Shark's merchants to return home with their contraband to ‘pervert’ the Clans.
As for laws … don’t forget the lashings in public …. beatings for just being in the wrong place at the wrong time ....
Remember though … yes, all who own a gun will use it to commit a crime is a misnomer … however, all who own a gun do have the ‘potential’ to commit a crime …. The gun gives them the ‘power’ to possibly commit a crime through the use of violence as they do have a weapon now…..
Just because you are isolated does not mean you just accept it … hate is one emotion that is passed down from one generation to another … have a look at many wars …. Many of the reasons they give, as an example, is because such and such did an atrocity in the 13th Century thus we must get revenge for this act of barbarism … today!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/19/18 10:26 PM
66.74.61.223
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So the khans of the clans performed a coupe? Sounds familiar. Those in power seized it, and for hundreds of years were the only one to say what was history. Brainwashing the masses?
The cell idea runs on the condition people actually know how to set it up. I seriously doubt that information was allowed with anyone not in the warrior caste. Being the lack of education into such things, the likely hood of them being able to find, build and get others to a hidden world don't look like an option. Resource being diverted would alert the high command, and they would accompany all shipments afterwards. If nothing else, they would be looking to where it was wasted at, and fix the issues.
The removal of family names counters part of the love our children. The sibco set up destroys that completely. There is no real love there, just duty. Some caretakers might get attached to certain kids, but they will test out, or flunk out. No other options are allowed. Aidan Pride was a bs fluke in this theory. No retests for anyone else, why would they do it for a trueborn that flunked out then poised as a freeborn? In the Jade Falcons no less.
Pervert is pretty accurate. The items sent were luxury items. You could use them for propaganda, but they would do the job without saying anything. No lies. Just indulgence of things that were not available.
With your view of the clans, do you really think someone would risk doing anything that might attract attention of the warrior caste? More then enough people would sell you out for a better position. It happens, even in history. Home grown militia come to mind. Even nations suffered it in and out of war. Collaberators will do what they can to survive. Traitors to the cause.
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Requiem
06/20/18 04:57 AM
58.175.193.140
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Coup? … in the form they went against the wishes of Nicholas yes. However, Nicholas incorrectly established the Clans internal rules by allowing each Khan the freedom to do what they wanted. If there were established correctly they must have created a government made up of an equal number of members from each one of the five levels of society and a Constitution / Declaration of Independence etc. by which the rules are known, by all, and for the benefit of all, therefore no one level can dominate the remaining – it would require a consensus …. Though what we do have is a totalitarian government …. By the warriors and for the warriors only!
Cells …. Remember the Clans were established by the SLDF … I would assume those individuals who-where within the intelligence branch of the SLDF would know, and they could have passed this knowledge along ….
Hidden world could have been established by Clan Wolverine … they could have established an egalitarian education system ….
During a war it is quite easy to divert resources, you would be surprised – a misplaced decimal point here; a misplaced resupply batch there – on paper it all matches but in real life? – did anyone remember reading anything about Auditors attached the Clans “Quartermaster Corp”, with no auditors good luck in finding out if resources are being diverted?
QUOTE: “The removal of family names counters part of the love our children.”
No, No, No, No,No …..
(You do realise that when you are talking about a state sanctioned program of destroying a child’s bond with parent and a parents bond with their child you take the state’s identity straight back of that of being a “Duck” again?)
The first time you pick them up / see them …. That is when that they are now and forever apart of your soul ….
Sibcos are for warrior children …
Fostering is for everyone else … therefore, yes, they are ripped away from their biological parents … thus they are psychologically scared for life …. Some have even said that removing children and placing them into care is akin to being placed in a concentration camp! … Remember the term nature Vs, nurture… if not look it up
Family Names, have a though as to what this means, have you ever created an ancestry list?….. do you have a famous family member or is you family is attached to a famous historical moment – I do …. On one side we go back to a famous English Naval Vessel and on the other my ancestry also includes Scottish and Spanish …. Consider what do you have? … with no last name you can forget all of that …. They are an identity of where we came from, they assist in identifying who we are ….
Exercise … close your eyes … ask who you are when you remove your last name … all previous ancestral identity … depending on the age of your siblings … remove all knowledge as to them as well (to the date you are fostered out. thereafter) …. Then school … who are you when you do not have a last name only a number …. How are you treated / who are you etc? … what does this teach you about identity?
To remove your identity is an evil bordering on the concentration camps – it may not kill you – but it does kill your family identity … your connection with the past … and it is ongoing from one generation to the next to the nest … so what are the Clans?
This is also a tactic that the resistance could use recruit more members … provide people with a comprehensive ancestral list … going back to the war with Amaris … identifying which unit your family was attached to … the grief, joy, and rage when provided with this information … they would soon be life-long and dedicated members of the resistance …..
Is it any wonder I believe the Clans should be destroyed totally leaving nothing but their history behind?
Yes people will seek a better life even if that means acquiring contraband … the warriors and their agents are not all powerful … it is conducted in the shadows / within black markets … warriors will not know where this is done (that is unless they a tipped off by a rat) …. This is how it is done now … this is how it is done in the future … case in point the speak easies of the prohibition period of the Americas … and we all know what happens to a rat when it is caught!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/20/18 02:31 PM
66.74.61.223
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Only Freeborns deal with their children. Trueborns are vat made. No contact with their parents when growing up, so that portion of love our children is not there. So trueborns tend to not understand a family unit.
As for your alt, the Wolverines can be the 'heroes' of the day, but in the canon world, the wolverines were said to have left the IS on the Outworlds alliance side of the IS.
I agree the sibcos are a horrible way to grow up, but suggesting the children were ripped away from their parents is not correct. Most trueborns aren't supposed to know who their offspring is. The don't even know they have some in alot of cases. Genetic material that is given to the scientist have to prove they are worth before the scientists are supposed to start forming children from it. From a moral stand point, this is cruel. But for a society that is isolated and trying to produce the best warriors possible, they do as they must.
Now. Take your family names and see where that gets you. You start having issues as someone thinks they have the right to command because they were Alexanders love child or came from the Kuritan blood lines. That forms a major resentment when they are not in charge. So yes. You have to go this route to destroy the clans in a civil war. Without it, you lose a major component of why a civil war would start.
The issue is how everything started. The people gave up their last names, and the leaders erased the history of the families, so only how you look would suggest where you might be from. Only blood lines had their history kept. That does remove alot of egos as you can not prove you were the love child.
Is it right by most standards of peoples morals? Not really.
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