Clan technology in the IS

Pages: 1
Requiem
06/05/18 12:56 AM
58.175.193.140

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Another point that was never considered …

To maintain a battle-worthy army you must have supplies – to repair existing damage; ammunition; pilots – the military industry complex.

Question: would you allow your supply lines to remain at a six month travel time from Clan Space to the IS or would you establish new production facilities within the IS?

I would assume we would all agree that, based upon efficiency alone, you would decide to build these facilities within the IS.

Thus freeing up many of your fleets jump-ships.

To build and run an industry however would require a highly educated and trained workforce …. Therefore the clans would need to educate IS individuals. (individuals and teaching equipment that can be smuggled off clan held worlds)

Also consider that of Operation Serpent – even though the books did not say they returned with vast amounts of data cores – in reality we all know that this had to have taken place to close the technology and hence military superiority of the clans over the IS.

Thus there is now IS trained in clan technology and the data cores to go along with it within the IS.

Why did the IS never achieve parity with that of Clans in some areas?

Did not the IS rout the Jags – what industries did they leave behind for the DC to exploit?

How many raids would the IS forces conduct into IS Clan territory to accumulate this knowledge?

This is another plot hole – I would have assume that over time the level of weapons technology would have become closer and closer until one day they were almost even?

Thus there should have been IS weapon’s upgrades every 10 years (3060, 3070, 3080 etc) closing the gap between the clans and IS as IS scientists gain a better understanding of clan technology and slowly implement this into their existing weapon systems.

However the game continues to perpetuate a vast difference between the two when there are multiple occurrences for IS forces to gain an understanding of Clan technology?

Why could we not say that by 3100 – fifty years after the initial invasion – IS and Clan weapon systems – ‘Mech/ aerospace / elemental power armour manufacture – and Dropship capabilities were not almost similar in all specifications …. As within those 50 years the IS stole / extrapolated / reverse-engineered all that was needed to gain the Clans understanding of their weapon systems…

Warships …. Though, I may agree might take a little longer ….

Thus new weapon systems with the same manufacturing rules by 3100 onwards – with only slight differences between the two….

Your Thoughts?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Karagin
06/05/18 01:14 AM
72.176.187.91

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
The issue with Clan weapons in the Inner Sphere is this, there would be LESS crap then we have now. Let me explain, back in the original TRO3050, way back when the Unseen where around and FASA wasn't worried about things, they state that the Inner Sphere could indeed make Clan tech weapons, BUT the cost and materials were hard to justify the need to doing so, now we all know if there is a need to build something better or copy the enemy to get ahead nations will do that, no matter the cost etc...but not in Battletech or FASA's take on things. So that is the reason we don't see IS versions of Clan tech.

Now we do known the Dragoons, yes those pesky Dragoons and their dog too, had the ability to make Star League tech weapons and SOME Clan tech items. SO this says to me things weren't as hard as the ComStar TRO3050 made it sound. Again we should see a Davion ER PPC that is almost as good as the Clan ER PPC but it might just take up 4 crits vs the normal 2. However, note the coma aka the pause, GAME BALANCE will be the next thing we are told why the IS won't or can't have Clan tech as norm. I am sure many around here will quote that as the SOLE reason, and while that is a good reason it is one that sooner or later needs to be removed and things leveled enough to keep going.

Also many of the "new" Inner Sphere weapons that came from The Tactical Handbook and then MaxTech and then mess of the Dark Age stuff was all set up to draw in new players and to keep current players looking forward to new stuff, and while some were good, some kind of meh and some plainly silly, paint guns and such, they were added to keep things new and different. Which is fine, but they didn't add anything to the game slowed it down.

Logically the Inner Sphere should have pushed the Clans out of the arms race since the Inner Sphere wasn't afraid to go for the odd ball weapon or ten, where as the Clans didn't want to go certain routes because it went against their tactical and strategic thinking. Now this is muddied once they start facing the House armies and the idea of total war, where the Inner Sphere doesn't hold back with using all kinds of weapons and tactics and thus forcing the Clans to rethink things. Yet the SETUP of the Clans as written keeps them on a stasis and static level. They won't change unless they have no choice.

We should be seeing lighter engines, better armor and all kinds of tech pouring out the Inner Sphere and while we did see SOME things with the Word Of Blake and their temper tantrum, it wasn't what one would have expected, same with the War of Reaving in the Clan Homeworlds.

Overall things should be at a higher level for the Inner Sphere in many areas then they are and the Clans should not be getting a lot of improvements since there needs to be a forced changed to why they are doing to stay with their background, again something that isn't always followed to the letter unless the PTB want to put the breaks on the Clans or the Inner Sphere.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
ghostrider
06/05/18 02:47 AM
66.74.61.223

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
This set of questions was asked a few times, but not in the direct fashion.
Why the clans stuff is lighter, better, yet even in the 3100 era, the IS has not closed the gap.

Building factories isn't the big issue with the clans. Not initially, as they thought the battles would be short and the IS would crumble just because the clanners flexed their muscles. The ghost bears solved the question of trained personnel to run the factories. Bring them in from the home worlds.

And during the video game where you are part of the forces invading the clan worlds, you in fact fight inside one of there factories. You don't destroy it.

And as with alot of things, the developers made some awesome enemy with advanced tech, but didn't want it spread around. Eventually, this will be the case. And as other threads have said repeatedly, the IS WILL start making clan tech.
As Karagin said, no matter the cost, they would do so. It was said before even if it is only the elite units getting it, it will happen.

The Arc Royal Defense Cordon is a good example with the Wolf in exile clan. No way the Kell hounds and other units in that area would not be taught how to make and keep maintained the clan tech.

I don't think the reasons for it being lighter is from too much materials but just how it is done. The er modification does not add weight to the lasers, but it does the ppc. Yet the clans are lighter. Might be because the lasers themselves are lighter.
The flaw in the odd materials comes when repairing the weapons themselves. The IS can fix the clan missiles launchers, yet if they were of odd materials, these fixes should add weight and bulk to the units, or not be able to fix them at all. Since they weight half is why I used this. ALL clan weapons would be unfixable in the IS without the proper materials. And there were no such things in the depots the IS got from raiding the clans.
Rotwang
06/06/18 08:12 PM
94.226.248.136

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Well there is some method to the madness. There is a huge gap between conceiving or even building a working prototype and actual industrial production. The Successor States were barely done rebuilding a workable industrial base and development capabilities by 3050.

The Successor states never had the facilities to produce advanced tech other than relic Star League production facilities, that's a substantial gap you need to cross and it's not easy. It takes years to figure out all this new tech, build factories and figure out the logistics required.

So it would not be unrealistic to assume that the Inner Sphere would be finding it really hard to emulate Clan tech at a time where they would be struggling to implement Star League tech and it would not be unreasonable that they wouldn't be able to make all but the simplest systems for several years. Reverse engineering can only get you so far, it doesn't always tell you how to make something in detail, it can yield vital clues, but unless you get your hands on the manuals and critical information you can start to build the infrastructure to produce parts.

I'll give two examples from real life. Aerogel and carbon nanotubes. The first examples were discovered decades ago and yet other than certain advanced applications made at a huge cost in a number of select fields, neither has been mass produced and become available to the general public. The advantages of these materials like insulation, weight and tensile strength would help tremendously in building better houses, stronger cars etc, but even though we know of the material it's yet too complex and uneconomical to produce them on an industrial scale right now and probably for the foreseeable future.

On the other hand we're pretty much pushing 3150 in the timeline and a century should be ample time for the Successor States to have made a serious effort in catching up and they should be able to produce many basic pieces elements with relative easy and the more advanced components at a slower rate and higher cost, but the gap should be closing because while reverse engineering is not an easy way to produce a whole new generation of mechs, it doesn't take a century to make a good effort.

OK we can throw in the Jihad for throwing a major spanner in the works and the Republic's enforced peace probably had a deleterious effect on development, but it's hard for the designers to keep on justifying the technology gap as if Clan tech was made from unobtanium, unicorn tears and the hopeful dreams of children harvested by the goblin people of Zeta Reticuli XIII with handmade dreamcatchers ...
ghostrider
06/07/18 03:03 AM
66.74.61.223

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Part of the problem with these examples are those making sure such materials stay out of range of everyone. It would destroy established companies to have something that works better then their stuff is.
The insulation factor. The government would be using it to secure their bases with it, if it is as good as it seems.
The drug companies are a good one to show this. The cures for alot of diseases could very well be done and ready, yet they will never release it. It would destroy them as they would no longer make the drugs to cover the symptoms, which bring in trillions.
Do you think with the better, stronger insulation that is fireproof, and would increase the strength of a building is something they want?
Built in obsolidity. They want you to replace their product occasionally, so they can make more money. If you didn't need to, then they would be out of business after a while.

The issue with this comes down to the writers not following their own implications. The coming out of the stone age isn't really there. They had the tech for ages, but since the developers were not prepared for the future, did not have the foresight/hindsight to make things flow. All houses had league tech for years. EVERY league cache had to have some advanced tech in them. You see in alot of the novels and even their own history saying they found the caches. The plans and a working model of the devastator mech is one such thing. The 4th war where the CC had the goliaths from a cache they found, and even the HPG fax machines were found by Katrina Stiener in a cache in the periphery when she was running around as the red corsair.
The dragoons and Cronstan's Irregulars is another such example. It states they found alot of the caches the clans knew about were raided already.
Now when the memory core was decoded, the IS just happen to have the factories in space for endosteel and ferrous Fiber, as well as other things that were still around from the league era?
And there were hints other such caches were found, but the Helm one was the largest.
In Rhonda's Irregulars, they used the advanced weapons they found in a few caches. They made it sound like they raided a comstar garrison, but they had the stuff already there.
And yet, the way the history was written, not a single high tech item was found before the helm core? Laser ER tech is circuitry. Like the fax boxes, yet they couldn't copy the ER tech? Something is very wrong there.
Pages: 1
Extra information
1 registered and 100 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  Nic Jansma, Cray, Frabby, BobTheZombie 

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is enabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Topic views: 3304


Contact Admins Sarna.net