ghostrider
06/23/18 04:07 AM
66.74.61.223
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More clans would react and demand to remove the threat to the home worlds. Not sure if they would go into council or just attack, as they are able to defend themselves without the councils ok.
Any sort of bombardment on the home worlds would cause a full retaliation of all clans. And go against the IS way of thought.
That is, the IS has been trading border worlds, for so long, they do not sweat it too much, as they will get it back in the next offensive in the area.
Swarming is against the clan codes, as one on one is the preferred way to fight. I misspoke when suggesting the clans would swarm the IS forces. I was thinking they would all rise up and hit them.
Once called dezgra, the clans are free to engage and destroy them as desired. Since the IS would be in the home systems, and attacking, that would mean the invading clans failed, and it is up to the home clans to do what the invading ones didn't.
Actually, the wiki has a list of comstar warships on it. It even says what time frame and even if WOB had them during the jihad. Jump ships. Well didn't see any mentioned.
The suggestion of using commercial jumpships was not saying they would send military units around. It was saying they may not have had to have as many jumpships as they could use them. And with just transfers of techs, the idea of comstar owning a huge fleet would have raised questions long before operation scorpion.
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Requiem
06/23/18 09:38 PM
58.175.193.140
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How would the Clans react to an invasion?
It all comes down to how good your attacking planning and intelligence is ……. and luck
(…. remember what Napoleon said ....”yes I know he is a good General, but how lucky is he….?” )
First you need to consider:-
Is this a surprise attack or did the clans have notice of the impending attack; (ie. what is their response time to the attack, which would then lead onto …)
Where they are being attacked (distance from defending forces garrison and the complement contained within the garrison)
Then you would also need to consider by what means they are being attacked ( ‘Mech, Infantry, Vehicle and Aerospace (bombing runs etc.)
Lastly who you are attacking – as each Clan has its own personality and this must be taken into consideration
Secondly you would need to consider:-
Did the attacking IS forces issue a Clan Challenge …. If they did so and attacked the Clans with their own rules and showing respect to the Clans …. How could they then be able to call for dezgra?
Third, what if you used you available Clan forces as your spearhead (Clan Nova Cat, Clan Wolf in exile etc) … if they are initially being attacked by the fellow Clan units then followed up with IS forces, what would they think then?
Possible the size and scope of the first wave could have confused them?
Possibly their IS Clans have switched sides?
Possibly the IS Clans are using the IS forces to conduct a Coup to become Il-Clan?
Could not attacking forces allow the defending Clans to ‘acquire’ fake radio traffic from multiple locations to confuse them as the nature of the first strike ….
Though in all likely-hood if there is only one local garrison they would defend, and if multiple garrisons would they not use their own Clan rules when determining the defence strength … for would not the IS use their own rules against them for as long as it is convenient for the IS to use them?
As for the Council …. Ask Phelan (Clan Wolf in exile) and the Khan and Sa-Khan of Clan Nova Cat …. They would have a good understanding of the people and the underlining politics of the Clan Council and as to their possible response … this would then not give the IS Operation Serpent forces an understanding as to what their (the Clans) next move should be … therefore you know what you enemies response is …. then you are able plan for a devastating second wave … there after though it is. ‘all bets are off’, as to the Clans response as the Council Chamber will become a shouting match as to what should be done next …. And it would be along party lines (Crusader Vs Warden)
As for rising up …. would not each Khan and Sa-Khan become pragmatic about the invasion … as per when Huntress was invaded … your world (or territory) therefore it is your problem – as I will look after only my worlds (and territory) … as the Clans are not known for working together to achieve a common goal …..
As for the response of Home Clans Vs. IS Clans …. Yes, yes they would view them as having failed …. and as they have failed would they not also view them as being weak … and if weak should not their territory (even their Clan) be absorbed into that of a stronger Clan …. So what I am suggesting is either a Trial for Ownership of a vital piece of land / factory; a Trial of Annihilation or a Trial of Absorption is even called for whilst the IS invasion is also taking place … for is this not the Clan way?
As for the size and scope of the Clan Fleet ….
Yes, if it was a small non-combatant force they would use a commercial transport … this would give them the appearance of being a common man ….
Though Comstar could have had a large Jump-ship fleet in comparison to the Great Houses – what if it was used as a non-military relief force (transferring vital food, medicine, doctors etc) throughout the IS …. This fits with their Quasi-Religious beliefs and would strengthen the common persons view of the benevolent Comstar holding the IS together … and would not the First Circuit want this image to be spread throughout the IS?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/24/18 03:27 AM
66.74.61.223
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Violating the challenge, like using multiple units firing on one clan unit, would get you declared dezgra. Most clans would have heard of the IS doing such things from the invading clans. The chance that they would accept is there, but not all that good.
The fake messages is a good example of failure to follow the challenge. The time and place is set as well as the forces on both sides.
And your timing is messed up, as Huntress was not attacked at this time. So having it as an example to the clans is impossible.
Same with the Nova Cats and Clan Wolf. Those events took place after the truce was done.
The war of refusal between the Wolf and Jade Falcon came about as the Falcons claimed they were not bound by the truce, as they took one of the objectives.
If not for trying to put Ulrik on trial for treason, the refusal would not have happened. So there is alot that would have to change in this storyline.
The attack on the supply line may well have kept the invasion IS wardens in the clans. This may even cause them to side with the crusaders in at least the defense of the home worlds.
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Requiem
06/24/18 06:17 AM
58.175.193.140
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The chance for dezga due to the preconceptions provided by those Clans presently within the IS must be taken into account. Those who have strong Crusader tendencies would attempt to manufacture a situation or declare them dezga from any initial combat. However if evidence provided to the Council that shows they violated Clan Law for their own self-interests … what would then happen to these Clans?
So yes this could happen. However I do believe it would have been factored into the overall strategy for the first two waves within the Clan Worlds by IS Operation Serpent forces.
The Challenge rules have no provisions as to ‘captured’ communications, as you said they relate to time and place and the forces used … So, how can you violate something when there is no rule concerning it? If they acted upon a captured miscommunication that is their error, quiaff?
As for Huntress is this not an example as to how the Clans Council would react to an invasion?
Making it invalid seems a little wrong when it is used as an example as to how they would operate as a collective unit during an invasion by IS forces.
Can you expand upon the quote regarding te refusal war and why it is relevant, as this could still be included within the overall narrative as not everything needs to discounted.
As for attacking the supply lines this is supposition, as it is up to the writer to determine the narrative, it could be quite easily be said that upon witnessing Clan Some Jaguars authoritarian rule
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/24/18 11:47 AM
66.74.61.223
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The refusal war would not have happened at this time. So suggesting the wolf in exile would advise or assist in operation serpent if done during, or immediately after the battle of comstar and the clans is invalid. I would say using the other threads and times of what happened in the future can not be applied to the current time line, but that is false.
I do agree the clans would not assist each other being under attack, but it is more of all the clans would react at this point.
So the IS forces would have to deal with most, if not all, at the same time.
For the alt line, it may be possible to get the IS to do this strike, but in the canon form, I doubt the IS would send that many units into clan space to wipe them all out. Intel on what clans and all their forces was pretty non existent for home clans.
And without a the road map, taking supply depots along the route would not help any, as one of the first things any clanner would do is delete the jump points they did have in storage, once they realized the IS was going to invade.
Mechwarrior Trent, the 'traitor' to smoke jaguar didn't get it until after the comstar fight, the IS would not have it at this time.
So that is another thing that has to be addressed.
The fake comms would be considered a breach in protocols as the stage is set for the fight. By suggesting you have additional forces, true or not, may well cause them to void the challenge. There is no place for that kind of deception for a trial. Once engaged, tactical ploys are acceptable, within reason. And yes, that needs some defining. Reason for one, isn't the same for another. I need to think on how to explain it. Maybe someone else has an idea.
Now if you don't intend on honoring the batchall, then you don't worry about it. If you do, then all forces that will engage are already known, and the time and place is set. Not adhering to it, may cause the trial to be void as well.
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Requiem
06/24/18 04:35 PM
58.175.193.140
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Why is it so unbelievable that a Wolf / Jade Falcon war occurred prior to Operation Serpent War, this is not Canon it is Alt. History?
As for a timeline … why do I need Operation Serpent at the same time as Tukayyid …. Would I not need Com Guard forces within Operation Serpent?
As for ‘more’ of the Clans reacting … they would only react if their holdings are threatened or invaded …. Also this could be part of the plan to fight all of them at the same time … why do you need to just pick on them one at a time as they did with the Jags.
As for intelligence on the home world – refer previous notes regarding interrogation / raids by commando forces / raid by pirate and wolf pack forces – I am convinced the IS would have a fairly accurate picture as to the Home World Clans forces ….. As would they not require this information before any attack plans could even be formulated and the fleet even dispatched to the Clan Home Worlds?
Remember the original Canon had the exodus road map wiped from the Jump-Ships computer when it passed from one stage to the next ….
However,
As for a road map …. Yes there is one with supplies …. Question: how do you send a HPG signal from the Clan Worlds to the IS and Back again? … so there is a line HPG ships that are capable of sending and receiving at the same time and there is a maximum distance / coordinates within each ship, so why not follow the yellow brick road of HPG Ships?
OR/- the IS had a spy that gave them the exodus road …. Could they not also prepare of an invasion in advance and establish a forward base of operations with supplies for the initial part of the campaign. A supply base that will receive a regular supply drop to keep Operation Serpent going.
Where is it written that Fake Coms are a breach of protocol? Book; Page No; Quote? … as this is a supposition again that I would be taking about unit numbers as I was discussing the overall purpose of the war – ie. to make the Nova Cats or the Wolfs the Il-Clan …..so honour is satisfied as to numbers in battle … it is about causing a mass destabilisation within the Clan’s Council Chambers when they are attempting to work out fact from fiction ….
So the Alt. History goes on … with the IS Clans are contained / destroyed the IS retaliates by taking the war to the Clan Home worlds … which will then end up with multiple wars within the deep periphery between the IS and the Clan Home Worlds and finally a drive upon the Clan Home Worlds to liberate them again (use WW2 as a template – Invasion – withdrawal – Battle of Brittan Stage – Africa – Italy – Russia Campaign – D-Day – drive upon Germany by two sides – ultimately Germany Collapses)
For is this not what the original template was to be, when you read the initial books and watch the TV series is this not what was planned before they decided to again become touchy feely with an enemy – The CC was to be destroyed and were not – The Clans were to be destroyed and were not – and as for the Jihad and the Dark Age can anyone really make any sense of this …. A WOB temper-tantrum and a blackout …. Very poor script development … it’s no wonder they never made the novels for the Jihad ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
06/25/18 03:52 AM
66.74.61.223
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The suggestion that the IS hits the clans in the periphery during the comstar fight, and continue to the home worlds is why I said the time line was messed up.
The refusal war and the other things were suggested, and only now they are added into the story?
To push it up, you would have to change how the clans came about forcing that issue. Which means time isn't there to get it all in motion. It started with the crusaders in clan wolf, then moved to the grand council.
So the IS forces would have to deal with most, if not all, at the same time. That statement should have covered hitting the clan worlds. Skimming the responses is starting to show.
It was stated the clans had HPGs on some of their war ships, and I would think they built some along the route. Now following a signal from the point you are at, and guessing where it went is a problem. Wiping out coords would be the first thing done in the event of an invasion. Well second. The first would put out a warning.
I would suspect they didn't write about the jihad as none of the writers had any units they cared for. It seems certain people were in charge of certain units for writing. Which is why they killed off alot of merc units. To avoid having to deal with the inventors.
Again, it seems points of clan honor and rules of combat are not understood. Fake transmission would suggest you are not going to honor the batchall as you have forces poised to strike outside of the ritual combat area. True or not, it is a threat that negates the trial. The fight was decided when, where, and what forces. Now you suggest more will strike elsewhere and can't figure out how this would break the challenge? Now if you did it while in combat, and only suggesting they were flanking or some such thing with units already bid into the fight, then it wouldn't go against the rules.
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Requiem
06/25/18 08:25 AM
58.175.193.140
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As stated before, an organized proxy battle between the Com Guard and the Clans will require the Clans to strip some of their new Garrisons of their military defenders. Therefore I would contend that with their reduced Garrison forces why wouldn’t the IS attack – and why wouldn’t they consider an attack throughout the periphery from FC space and DC space – linking up in the middle, with the aim of creating a buffer between the IS Clans and their supplies, that are contained within the Deep Periphery.
The only thing stopping them from this action is the Clan’s Warships – and as per previous notes IS Fighters will have access to Non-Nuclear Capital Missiles and big wings are also now being used (ie. Regimental Aerospace Combat Teams)
Stop thinking of my Clan Civil war and the Refusal war as the same thing, they are two separate wars that eventuated for two separate reasons … ok … I am not taking Canon from one area and inserting it into another time frame (as what would be the point of that?)
When reading the jihad notes isn’t it a bit depressing … might that be one of the reasons why it wasn’t written in a novel format …..
Again – Book, Page No, Quote and possibly an example why – where does it say I can’t accidently leak information? Just saying it is breaking the rules is not working.
As where did I say I was striking somewhere else? I said that the misleading info. is about making the Nova Cats or Wolfs the Il-Clan – how do you get from here to striking another location or to a flanking manoeuvre? IS forces are there and Clan Forces are there fighting so what’s the problem?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/04/18 03:00 AM
66.74.61.223
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In the wolf clan source book, it says that getting the troops to Tukayyid taxed the limits of comstars transportation section to the limit.
It doesn't say how many ships were used or what kind, but it does show they had a few, and not enough to move all of their forces. Technically, it could be figured out by finding the units and where they came from in the IS.
Granted, there was no mention of comstars warships being there.
Though I find it hard to believe they would not have them on station just incase the clans had bid them into the fight.
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Requiem
07/04/18 05:30 AM
58.175.193.140
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Having ComStars Warships on Standby would mean that ….
1. They have moved them from the periphery to the middle of the IS – thus in all likely-hood they have been seen and documented by IS forces;
2. If they are with the Comstar Fleet – again - in all likely-hood they have been seen and documented by IS forces;
Thus those IS forces intelligence agencies will be asking of ComStar some very uncomfortable questions – especially regarding construction and where they have been for the past 250 years etc.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/04/18 06:01 PM
66.74.61.223
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Timing may be the key here. Operation Serpent was using comstar warships to get to the clans home worlds. Yes, it is more in the future, but I want to say they had seen them before that time.
I want to say when they were deploying the mechs across the IS, they also shown they had warships.
And to be honest, for the houses to make their warships, they were using comstar to build the engines for them. How would they know that, if they didn't have working factories and experience doing so?
The shipyards around Mars would be a good guess.
Some of those questions are easy to answer. Most where mothballed until recent times. And that would be the truth. Not all, and not sure of when they started reactivating them. Could well have been before 3025.
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Requiem
07/04/18 10:36 PM
58.175.193.140
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The knowledge regarding warships construction and engines I believe comes from A Focht – post Scorpion he could have leaked the information to the IS Great Houses.
Plus he could have given their engineers access to the Martian Shipyards – not only for education purposes by also for assistance with manufacturing is my guess.
And yes they could have has a fleet mothballed and ready to go at a ‘moments’ notice – they did have hidden worlds – who knows what they could have had in orbit around these planets and from when is also a mystery.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/05/18 02:47 AM
66.74.61.223
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The Suffren warship in the 3057 book tells of comstar building warships up until 2949. Yet no one ever seen their warships before they were used to stop the clans?
There is one of the big holes in the story line.
The Fox warship was started in the design phase in 3050. They had to have the specs for the engines to even begin to proceed with trying to even design it. Yet this before comstars fight with the clans. 3051 the plans were finalized. So the IS knew comstar had the ability to build warships at that time. The fact they controlled the ship wrecking yards in the Sol system should have told them, some mothballed ships would well be hidden there.
The comstar only Magellan jumpship was an armed jumpship that was in the IS for a while. The fluff says most of their dropships and jumpships had HPGs on them. The fact they are armed, should have sent red flags up. And the fact it was in service since 2960 has a big bs written all over it. Yet the 3057 books is the first anyone has heard of it?
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Requiem
07/05/18 04:37 AM
58.175.193.140
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Comstar’s Magellan Class Jump-ships that were in service since 2960, and at the same time were armed, however this did not become apparent to the IS Great Houses until 3057.
Google the German auxiliary cruiser Kormoran – a “merchant” raider of WWII – for all intense and purposes a merchant vessel that could at the drop of hat become a military cruiser once the disguise is removed.
So therefore what you have is a merchant Magellan Class Jump-ship that is also a raider once the disguised panels are removed /opened to allow the weapons to fire.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/05/18 11:32 AM
66.74.61.223
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Where did the information that the houses didn't find out until 3057 come from? It isn't the fluff under the Magellan.
Since the design is something other houses didn't use, they would be very intent on finding out not only who owned it, but any capabilities once found. As they were probably used to move comstar forces around in the 4th war, the 3057 time frame sounds off.
As for warships, there had to be at least rumors of them being spotted moving around the IS. Hard to miss them. Pirate points and such could lessen the likelihood, but not stop all of it. Someone was bound to see and get information on it.
Killing all that did, and had information is possible, but not that feasible.
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Requiem
07/05/18 08:19 PM
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The Magellan Jumpship
Page 100 Technical Readout 3057 – Dropships, Jumpships and Warships
In it it states that ComStar Introduced them in 2960 – Commissioned by Primus Adrienne Sims
Thus they most likely had a big Comstar Emblem emblazoned on their hull – making them inviolate ….
Sorry they were not used as a transport – capacity for only one dropship upon the Jump-ship – she is a deep space exploratory vehicle going 600 days and 2500 light years before refuelling.
So therefore yes the IS Great houses most probably knew of them but not their underpinning technology of how they worked
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/06/18 12:38 AM
66.74.61.223
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Supposition as to them not being used as a transport?
No written thing supporting this, and to be honest, why would comstar need a jumpship to move even 3 dropships at a time?
Especially when they were just transporting precentors and their guards.
And I do agree that they were deep exploratory ships. Most likely looking for the SLDF trail. And the emblem would not make them inviolate from attacks. You just had to make sure they didn't call out. I am sure a few pirates took some. Well besides the weapons fighting back.
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Requiem
07/06/18 02:14 AM
58.175.193.140
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Supposition …. Would you use a vehicle that was designed specifically for space exploration (and has only one docking collar) as a common transport vessel? … Me, only unless whatever it was transporting was of extreme importance to Comstar.
Why would Comstar need a Jump-ship to move even 3 drop-ships at a time?
Lets go back to what Comstar is and what they do in the IS – a quasi-religious order that upholds the values of the Star League.
Including such things as …. An ethical and moral humanitarian institution ….
Doctors without borders – Three Overlord Class Hospital Ships to assist wold be appreciative – especially within the periphery
Unicef – Food Relief – Famine Relief – hence bulk food carriers.
Disaster Relief – Engineering Vehicles to assist with Damage / repair etc.
Project assistance - Engineering Vehicles to assist with building water purification facilities / schools etc.
Greenpeace – Can you imagine a ComStar Zoo – animals throughout the IS and beyond?
All this and more to keep the true mission of ComStar hidden from the masses – also to maintain peoples good will towards them – also the reason behind why so many people from all throughout the IS with to be part of their Cause to return the IS back to that of the Star League
This is why the people would believe why they need so many Jump-ships to help save humanity via all the good works they do.
As for being inviolate … within the IS yes it would … in the deep periphery and beyond is another matter. But they do have a HPG so news can be sent home as to whom are attacking their ship / what ships are attacking them / and where – a good starting point for an investigation
They would also be looking for other things other than the Exodus fleet – lost human colonies (technology they possess?)– new worlds – resources to be exploited (this would also include food, water, metals, diseases, medicines etc.)
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/06/18 12:50 PM
66.74.61.223
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The rescue operations would well have some of those resources on worlds, as travel time from a world to jump point, then jump, and travel to new world would be too long. Local governments would have rescue operations done long before comstar got into a system.
And a single dropship like a mammoth could cover a large chunk of that, but again. The government should have the resources do deal with it.
What it looks like, it would be switzerland being the one to send help to china following a major earthquake.
Now the costs of keeping fleets sitting around doing nothing. This would cause them to avoid having ships in service that wasn't being used on a pretty regular basis. Yes, they can rent space to others, making it less costly, but I doubt they would do so. Too much risk of someone infiltrating their ship and stealing tech. Even just copying or photographing it.
Now. One dropship while exploring the periphery? That is not really enough to search much in a thorough capacity, as it should be. Supplies for the jumpship is what the jumpship will use, not those attached to it. So the dropship would need its own food, water, spare parts, on top of shuttles, vehicles, mechs and other things they would need for a search.
Not that it would be needed if all they were doing was charting the jump points, but it is something that seems to be missing.
And Greenpeace would be against having animals in zoos. They are more to keep them alive and in their natural environments. But it is something others might do.
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Requiem
07/06/18 06:57 PM
58.175.193.140
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Kellies Heroes, …… “None of those negative waves Moriarty …..”
Rescue operations:- example … post Typhoon … takes how many months to repair a city? Example … Forrest Fire … this could also take months to put out depending upon its size? Example …. Earth quake / Volcanic activity …. Again months ….?
How many countries send in advisors / experts to assist other countries when they find them-selves in a crisis? – if they are close by why not send them in? - also Comstar could have them spread throughout their HPG facilities thus they may require from time to time new equipment, would they not, and how do they get their new equipment? Drop-ship?
Also Comstar cannot be compared to Switzerland for resources – they would have the same resources as any major House … so the European Union to help China might be more accurate.
Their fleet are not sitting around doing nothing … helping humanity is a full time job as we have a proclivity for getting ourselves into extreme problems….. that requires assistance to get out of this problem.
The One Jump-ship and One- Dropship policy – again we do not know how many of these ComStar have – An Unknown Variable again – as for the one Dropship – this would be a survey craft outfitted with geologist, botanist, zoologist + drill rig crew to get core samples + hunting crew + long range aircraft + photographer etc etc. all the people required to complete a dedicated planetary survey.
As for Food – the Jumpship specs came with 400 tons. – and depending upon their drop-ship type this could be increased again….
Errrr … Greenpeace 3025 could be into preserving animal species through zoo sponsored breading programs / education programs … as hunting could have done what to the local numbers …. How about putting a forum forward ….or even a suggestion for a new game …. Greenpeace “circa 3025” has hired your mech unit to guard the endangered animals on “ …….” World – they a quite similar to our Dinosaurs ….your adversaries …. Local big game hunters / poachers who go out in their mechs to hunt them then take them back as a trophy kill / medicinal qualities (like bear paws, rhino horns etc) … also the local wildlife could also pose a threat to you and your mech ….. remuneration good … you could be also saddled with an expert or two as well as a camera crew …. Fun and games ……
So no war, but an interesting battletech game ….. or wouldn’t this interest you?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/07/18 12:11 AM
66.74.61.223
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So the local militia would do nothing to assist in dealing with a natural disaster? Wrong.
Rebuild time and getting there with supplies as soon as needed, is a far cry from each other. The only advantage comstar would have, is knowing what is going on before the receiving end does.
A world that does not have some capability to deal with natural, and unnatural disasters is a new colony, or one that is very limited in what they can do, IE a world were all people live inside domes and environmental suits. And still they have something on hand.
The lack of numbers is why the idea of scouting the periphery quickly is an issue. Simple jumping out of a system only to have someone jump in a few minutes after you are gone is very likely when searching for some one or some thing. Only fixtures on worlds, or permanent stations would suggest there is something there.
And there is no real scanning the system to find where a force came in at. Scanner ranges are not that long, and that isn't adding in ecm, or even materials that are difficult to detect.
So when it is suggested there are so many that you can just send out fleets into the periphery without knowing your destination, remember this. No numbers. For an alt, you make them up. Defending it like that is how it has to be is the issue here.
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Requiem
07/07/18 04:35 AM
58.175.193.140
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Your world view is little slanted towards the negative …. of course the militia would assist, but if you were offered additional assistance would you turn it down just because it comes from ComStar – from either those on world or off-world, supplies that could be there in a month or more to provide additional medical / technological support?
With Jump points – have a look at the size of these …..
Reconnaissance in space is also about detecting communications … cypher decryption … and conducting a planetary survey – how big a fire / burn paten does a drop-ship leave behind when it blasts off the ground to obtain orbital flight?
Reconnaissance is also using your commandoes back in the IS to hack Clan Computers to see if a digital fingerprint can be found as to the location of their bases … remember even though they may have deleted it it does not mean that it cannot be reconstructed.
As for Fenrir’s fleet numbers let us start with 12 – Strawberry 1 to Strawberry 12 – this is achievable by any stretch of the imagination – what did you think I was going to send out 50 to 100 Ships??????
So it is achievable to establish – it has a clear mandate – it has a capable crew and maps – it has the best information we can provide – it has the ability to communicate back to home base with the aid of black boxes – we have the ability to have a reserve RCT and RACT unit on standby in the event it will be required in the future – plus it has the ability to slow or halt the clan invasion by denying our enemy replacement parts and personnel whilst at the same time increasing our own militaries efficiency upon the battlefield – it is an acceptable risk given we are at war and are currently loosing – thus something has to be done to change this now – only a fool would say no it is one of the only ways left for the IS to achive victory … so go …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/07/18 11:35 AM
66.74.61.223
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The black boxes, according to past posts, can only send so much. Not sure if this is an assumption or not. I don't remember seeing information on it like this. Also in another post, it was suggested planetary leaders would have one to continue to run if a coms blackout occurred. Then it was suggested it couldn't be used as such.
Contradictions are part of what makes the canon version get holes in it. The same is happening with the alt version.
The Fenrir fleets you are sending. What ships are they using? The monolith with all overlords or vengeance carriers?
And you are just going to hand them over to pirates?
The training in human psyche should tell you most would take the ships and run. Start pirating in another location.
And even getting those resources up, means denying your own forces the use of them.
The IS needed to do more to stop the clans, and could have, but didn't. The chose to sit back and deal with the threat like a succession war. You lose border planets to gain time to counter attack. Then you hopefully take them back. Tried and true method, for the FS and FC. Not so much the CC.
As said and agreed with, in a stand up fight, the IS loses alot of resources. They can still do it with sheer numbers, and this isn't talking about the mechs. The books suggested large numbers of vehicles would change the fortunes on the field. The issue is getting them down when attacking.
For your alt, what you suggest is fine, but it does not fit the canon information. Comparing the two is like saying Sri Lanka is a super power, because they just upgraded their forces.
Yes, that is extreme, but without the numbers, attacking others running on the canon side because of implication in the story, and the excess of the alt can't be done.
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Requiem
07/07/18 09:37 PM
58.175.193.140
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Re the Black Boxes – use the Sarna wiki search engine.
My Alt. History suggested leaders and military units should have them as a back-up – Canon just ignored the equipment hoping it would just disappear.
As for a Fenrir reconnaissance attack force – example – Strawberry 1
One Invader Class Jumpship
One Vengeance Class Dropship ( Fighters 40, Small Craft 3)
One Overlord Class Dropship (‘Mechs 36, Fighters 6)
One Triumph Class Dropship (Cargo 3,260 tons, Vehicles 8 Light, Infantry 4 Platoons)
(Crew is entirely FC volunteers – there is only one ex-pirate person who is acting as the Captains guide / assistant – and they have been vetted)
We are working on a hub and spoke arrangement here also with only one Fenrir Assault Attack Force in the wings that can be called upon if required – when security / the target is too great for a recon unit alone to penetrate)
Thus a RCT (minus the majority of the infantry) and a RACT
All Strawberries are linked into a communications net via their Black Boxes …
So again not a problem – why, oh why, are we going around and around the same merry-go-wheel regarding your points as to why is wouldn’t work?
QUOTE: And even getting those resources up, means denying your own forces the use of them.
So your great plan is this ….
QUOTE: You lose border planets to gain time to counter attack. Then you hopefully take them back. Tried and true method, for the FS and FC. Not so much the CC. and They can still do it with sheer numbers, and this isn't talking about the mechs. The books suggested large numbers of vehicles would change the fortunes on the field. The issue is getting them down when attacking.
You do realize your plan is that of a WWI General sending the troops (in large numbers) out of the trenches – walk across no man’s land – then attack the enemy trenches- all the while the enemy is using machine guns on your troops … how did that work out? … Verdun, Somme, Pozieres, Ypres etc
This style of fighting is not working and when something is not working you have to try something new and creative ….Can’t you see this is one of the major plot holes of the entire Clan Invasion by always using the tactics of the past and never changing the IS forces you are losing the war, and badly, have you never read about the mad English Officers of WWII and how their innovative tactics caused major upsets to both the Germans and the Japanese – Read about the Origins of the SAS in the desert and the Chindits in Burma.
FC - How is the counter-attack plan going … two years in and all you’ve done is fall back …with only one counterattack world attempted and even then if the Clans attempt to retake it in all probability you will be forced to evacuate. A head-to-Head plan does not work in this case … you have to think out of the box and not be limited by being in the box …. where is the clans most vulnerable? .... strike there ... they are most vulnerable with their long chain supply runs and the number of jump-ships within each of their fleets ....
Case in Point – Rommel – having to keep them on the beaches on D-Day – in this case in space or marooned on a planet with no available transport (Jump-Ships) – the Big-Wing Vs. Clan Warships / Jump-ships engines (as repair in space would take how long?) … thus giving you time to organise a counterattack.
This is exasperating ……. Why the fall-back always to Canon this and Canon that …. What I am suggesting is a rewrite and allowing people to make up their own minds as to which is the better game. By allowing a new group of game developers to rewrite and fix many of the existing plot holes and hopefully make it better and more realistic.
There can be a mark 2 Battletech it just takes the willpower and drive to make it a reality ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (07/07/18 09:42 PM)
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ghostrider
07/08/18 12:47 AM
66.74.61.223
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First. Why bother with an RCT? Use normal mech units with armor attached. Only one batt of mechs going, so the rest is useless. Leave them to guard borders and respond to attacks. Maybe even send them out to attack.
With this alt in mind, no one knew at the time the omnis were not all the mechs owned by the invading clans, as well as not knowing how many forces where there. They could have had full nova galaxies guarding worlds, and the omni strikes was only the attacking elite. Without knowing the exact forces of what you face, saying this or that will work is all guess work. Reading the books and seeing what the clans had and used, is a far cry from doing the fights at the time it came out.
The lack of numbers at the time, as well as no intel is where the big plot hole in the alt line comes into play.
None of the houses knew their were four clans invading with 2 reserve. The Dragoons did, but didn't say anything until the break in the war for voting for a new IlKhan.
For the alt, you can have the leaders crap dark matter.
Suggesting the entire writing of the game is wrong, just because it doesn't match your ideas, is the key here. No numbers means your basis for them being wrong has no substance. The writers knew, or made up what they wanted to. It is their universe. Saying it is wrong is the problem.
How long was it before the FS kicked the DC out of their territory in the first war? If I recall, they only did so in the second war. So two years in nothing.
Without the clans stopping for the election, and comstar beating them, how many worlds would have fallen as you waited until you had intel on them?
To defend against superior tech, numbers is the only way to slow down an attacker to find out weaknesses. Not a good thing, but look to the eastern front in WWI. It will eventually wear out the attacker, but it is not going to be light casualties for the defending forces.
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Requiem
07/08/18 01:51 AM
58.175.193.140
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Why bother with a RCT? – Tactical flexibility when attacking – you don’t know what you are going to find and on what environment the base is situated on thus a RCT will provide their general with a tactical flexibility when engaging the Clans.
Yes the IS does not know what is hidden in the periphery (deep or deeper). This move is a calculated risk in a deep strike reconnaissance … even if you didn’t know what is in the void you would still go, because your home and family is on line.
Again with the lack of numbers and intel? …. Again that Dog don’t hunt!
Steel Vipers were patrolling the supply lines connecting the Clan home worlds to the forces fighting for the right to lead the Inner Sphere (P. 86 Invading Clans)
Clan Nova Cat …. Won the right to participate in minor actions with the four primary invading Clans (P. 109 Invading Clans)
Question – where did I suggest the entire writing is wrong – what I am suggesting is that it needs to expanded upon to make what was into what it should be …… being a Critic allows you to have an opinion upon others work … have you never critiqued a book and an authors work?
Two years is nothing? …… Your understanding of military intelligence is lacking …. Keep studying and keep reading
You do realize when you are talking about numbers as the only way to slow down an attacker you are going into the WWI tactics of Attrition Warfare – the process of wearing down an opponent so as to force their collapse through losses in personnel, equipment and supplies – Can you really see this tactic as defeating the Clans?
Yes we won though is cost us 2 Billion people to do it …. Yay us!
You seriously believe WW1 trench warfare tactics will win?????
Invading Clans P. 110 under Learning Experience ….
Clan Nova Cat ….
• Discovered the importance of secure, well-planned supply lines by watching Clans Smoke-Jaguar and Jade Falcon falter at the end of the first wave for lack of materiel …
• Clan Wolf sure ahead in the third wave by virtue of an extensive, innovative supply system of supply. … a system of scrounging supplies from occupied worlds
It went on to add … When a lack of ready supplies forced the invading clans to slow their assault …
So, yes as written by your Cannon writers the Clan suffered as a result of a lack of supplies … thus if a dedicated team worked to slow this even further what then?????
You must ask yourself why was this point never expanded upon … again poor writing … this could have been expanded upon and made into a great sub-story.
So my plan to restrict Clan supplies does have validity - a pity it was never acted upon by Battletech Version 1.0 - though that will be fixed in Version 2.0
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/08/18 03:09 AM
66.74.61.223
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Trench warfare is needed when the enemy invades your lands, and you have nothing other then numbers to do anything. Not like you have a choice.
The wolves made forward depots. Actually so close to the front lines, the other clans were nervous any sort of counter attack would have access to them. Scrounging for parts? Do IS parts work in clan mechs? Some things like hip bearings and such, but the weapons and we know the armor, isn't likely. Ferrous fiber armor of the clans should not work with IS ferrous fiber. Yet there isn't anywhere it actually says that.
Units, other then RCT's, do get trained in tactical flexibility. With a single battalion of mechs, breaking up an RCT doesn't make as much sense as training a batt to do the same. 8 light vehicles isn't good for much but moving troops around and supplies. Against clan mechs, they die quickly. So this is all mech action. The RCT is trained to use the other branches efficiently. This would be a waste of their talents. Ok. Typo with the Triumph. The stats given are for the Fury. Cargo is right for triumph. Vehicle load isn't.
Might want to check out the succession wars, where the DC invade the FS initiating the 1st war. And occupied more then a few worlds for decades. So based on that fact, 2 years is nothing. And at that point, the DC was very happy to eliminate any that resisted.
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Requiem
07/08/18 03:49 AM
58.175.193.140
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QUOTE: Trench warfare is needed when the enemy invades your lands, and you have nothing other then numbers to do anything. Not like you have a choice.
Yes, yes you do have a choice, you always have a choice ….. sacrificing good people upon the alter of war will get you nowhere …. Remember war is as much concept as conduct ….and … a warrior shrinks not from Duty but neither does he revel in death.
Poetry suggestions:
1. For the Fallen by Binyon Laurence (1869); and
2. Epitaph on an Army of Mercenaries by Housman, Alfred Edward (1859-1936)
Fixed emplacements do not work against the clans ….. RE: During the FC Civil War – The Jade Falcons Invade the FC …. The Book Operation Audacity … Sharon Bryan on Melissia …. And the outcome was ….. ‘bad’….. for the LC?
As for Clan Wolf’s scrounging parts yes it does say that P.110 Invading Clans in re to their Logistical Augmentation Program.
As for the RCT – this is Fafnir’s support unit not the reconnaissance unit ….
As for the Triumph so I missed typing in Bay 1 – 45 Heavy Vehicles …. Bay 2: 8 vehicles – you require a very fast and flexible reconnaissance unit that does not fight - in out sensor scan of the area only type of job this is what I put in here – the other 45 Heavy will provide the tactical support necessary.
Again – you cannot compare the length of time from one war to the length of time to another war – it is quite counterproductive … it takes as long as it takes to win that is all that matters…case in point the 100 years war -re the English Succession.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (07/08/18 08:04 PM)
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ghostrider
07/08/18 08:13 PM
66.74.61.223
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I would love to hear how being on the defense, you have a choice of defending yourself
How and where you may fight may very well be out of your hands.
Either fight, even trench warfare, or surrender.
It is that simple.
So surrender is preferred when attacked?
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Requiem
07/09/18 12:42 AM
58.175.193.140
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Please go to my new tactics post -
In particular I suggest that you research the following WWII Elastic Defence (also known as Defence in Depth).
Plus there is also a running defence strategy.
Or do you want the Spartan 300 only?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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