Requiem
04/08/18 03:38 AM
58.175.193.140
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Draconis Combine – Operation “V” (Vengeance – apt name)
Due to Clan Smoke Jaguar’s use of a warship to destroy Turtle Bay’s Edo City – an act of utter barbarity – if Theodore Kurita would not then his father Takashi Kurita would (Think of Takashi as WWII General Tojo and you will understand why he would enact this vengeance to preserve Kurita / Draconis Combine Honour) - order the majority of their Vengeance class dropships to a pre-arranged rendezvous plus aerospace assets (40 fighters for each + willing pilots) and he start plans for a ‘Kamikazie’ attacks upon clan warships / jumpships.
The ‘Honour’ of House Kurita would demand no less / Theodore cannot look weak in front of his command staff – the only thing he could do is direct the target to a single clan – Clan Smoke Jaguar.
Given the targets conventional munitions would not be enough, the decision therefore is to use thermo-nuclear devices (if you believe they do not have them, you are so wrong) – the use of which neither House Honour nor Theodore would be in a position to stop as this decision comes from the old Samurai mentality and would demand vengeance to censure the Clans in the use of such a barbaric weapon.
Thus time is used to assemble the fleet, assign aerospace pilots, fix thermos-nuclear weapons to each fighter and assign them to worlds in preparation for the attack order.
Operation V:-
With the start of the Third Wave House Kurita knows Clan Smoke Jaguar has attaked Albiero, Hanover, Jeanette, Kabah, Savinsville and Schuleyer – code words provided by Dest operatives (they also have Hanse Davion’s small HPG ‘box” technology to relay the information bypassing ComStar).
They also know Clan Smoke Jaguars fleet composition 4 warships and 30 – 40 Jumpships (the majority of which are on the front line)
Jumping in the Kurita forces will give the Clan little time to act – their arrogance will be their down fall – with the arrival of 80 to 120 aerospace fighters at each planet all with one aim to get close enough to detonate their warhead would prove very difficult to stop, even with a/a batteries and fighter screens (WWII pacific war).
Theodore Kurita ensures that any Clan Nova Cat vessel is transmitted a message informing them this is between the Draconis Combine and Clan Smoke Jaguar – and – they are censuring Clan Smoke Jaguar for their barbaric use of a warship upon a Kuritan City – thus giving them the right to retaliate using barbaric weapons – Thero-nuclear devices one hit or even a near explosion (say 1-2Km) would kill the ship due to the nature of the explosion.
By the end of the day all warships are destroyed together with the majority of the Jaguar fleet.
Clan Nova Cat –
They would not engage – their code of honour would not permit it – thus they would move to Clan Ghost Bear and inform them of the days events.
House Kurita’s Follow up:-
Clan Smoke Jaguar’s remaining garrison units / front line units would be hunted down and destroyed as they now have no escape off world – unless a commercial Clan Jumpship survived and was able to transport them out of the kill box.
Other remaining Clan Smoke Jaguar Forces could be absorbed into either the Nova Cats or the Bears – trial of absorption.
The entire Smoke Jaguar Zone will be shortly (a couple of months only) returned to the Draconis Combine.
The Clan’s Response to the use of Thermo-nuclear Weapons? – “A Grand Kurultai?”
Warden Vs. Crusader – with Clan Smoke Jaguar now effectively destroyed as a fighting force within the Inner Sphere. It is ‘hoped’ that the Crusaders would say this is a ‘Trial of Annihilation’ brought on by its use of a warship upon a defenceless city – one barbaric act that produced a second barbaric act.
Crusaders would demand a right of refusal based upon vote not going their way – end up Wolf Vs. Bear or The remnants of Smoke Jaguar (assume Wolf wins.)
However to ensure this does not happen again the Clans would need to reassure the Inner Sphere that all warships will be bid away upon all future assaults – unless warship Vs. warship. The only way they can do so is via Precentor Martial Anastasius Focht (ComStar).
Comstar informs the Clans, however, any act of barbarity by any clan / or their unit’s on planet will be met with the strongest reprisal by any IS House Unit.
Second Response – The remaining Smoke Jaguar forces launch an all-out attack upon Luthien.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
04/11/18 02:28 AM
58.175.193.140
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Does no one have an opinion as to the use of nuclear weapons upon Clan warships / units if they break the rules of war upon civilians at this stage of the clan invasion?
Requiem
Adelaide, Australia
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
04/11/18 04:57 AM
66.74.61.223
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Kurita has used nukes even after the Ares convention. It would seem like using them against the clans especially after Turtle Bay.
Now the forces you suggest they have. Where did this information come from?
Another perceived hole in this is the Nova cats. They would defend their territory, and not move to the ghost bears. From what appears in the little information about them, they have a feud going between the two. And the smoke jaguars had one with both.
There is also the likely hood of all the clans deciding the use of nukes against any clan was barbaric, and shows the kuritans have no honor at all. The initial shots were condemned by the other clans, but in their minds it is but one world. And the shots were non nuclear. So there is that issue to deal with.
As we know from the history of the trail of refusal, the clans did not stop or help the IS from basically destroying the jaguars. Since those forces only took but did not destroy the genetic repository on the smoke jaguars word, they did not feel a full out assault on the winners of that was needed. A nuke strike should, though I want to say would, cause the other clans to declare kurita dezgra, and remove all challenges, with a trial of annihilation from all the clans.
As a side note, it sounds like orbital bombardments were not unknown in the clans home worlds. The bids normally had warships in them even if they enemy did not have them.
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Requiem
04/11/18 09:31 AM
58.175.193.140
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Vengeance Class Dropship
Technical Readout 3057 – Dropships, Jumpships and Warships – just explains that each Successor State has access to these Dropships; no other book has actual naval figures for each successor state’s naval complements.
Thus as it is my alternate history I made the assumption that the DC would/could have access to enough Vengeance Class ships for this action (as well as enough nuclear ordnance).
As for the Nova Cats Defending their Planets – as per Invading Clans A Battletech Sourcebook (#1645) – the Nova Cats did not acquire planets until the fifth wave whereas Turtle Bay was in the first waive.
The question to be asked thus – given they have no stake (planets) in a nuclear war between the SJ and DC what would they do as they are only a reserve unit at this stage.
As for all the clans determining an order of exterminates against DC.
If they did so the DC would have to revert to first Succession War (Jihad) Tactics against all the Clans.
Hanse Davion would then also have to revert to the same tactics (in this situation he would have to preserve his alliance with the DC rather than letting the Clans mortally wound / destroy the DC – for once the DC is gone FC will be next (the problem of the 4th Succession War again).
The question would then be then – would the Warden Sympathizers especially Clan Wolf’s Khans allow the invasion to devolve into this type of warfare were the planets the Clans conquered include nuclear wastelands. Especial since their aim is to restore the Star League and allow them to redeem the morally corrupt inhabitants of the Inner Sphere (with a nuclear war they will never redeem IS citizens – it would be war to death forever and ever).
An additional question to be asked – would (politically) or could (militarily) the clans remain in the IS if both the FC and DC remain in the IS if both these two states initiated an all-out nuclear war upon the Clans given their limited number of warships and jumpships as the primary targets.
Requiem,
Adelaide, Australia.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
07/04/18 09:29 AM
58.175.193.140
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Does no one understand the importance of ‘face’ to a person of Japanese descent – especially when you are from a noble family?
So Now we have observed that Capital Missiles should have existed in the early invasion – with a Regimental Aerospace Combat Team the Draconis Combine, to regain their lost Honour should have pounded this ship until it was destroyed.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/04/18 06:37 PM
66.74.61.223
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As stated in another thread, the honor you are trying to use as a basis of your argument for retaliating against the clans has to be settled in the first succession war, when Kurita was the first to use nukes against civilian targets.
To get your revenge, you would strip entire areas of their forces in order to blindly strike out to find this one ship. One that could very well destroy any space force sent after it.
Turtle Bay was in enemy hands when this happened. The loss of face was already done, and the combine itself tended to move people off worlds they took, and brought them deeper into the combine, to avoid issues like rebellions. And they were not treated nicely, interrogations were normal for most.
Now. Where would your honor be at, if while chasing down a ship you have no clue on where it is at, you lose even more worlds as the defenders were missing?
This should have happened during the 4th war when the DC lost worlds to the LC and all those units lost trying to kill the Dragoons. There could be no rest until the dragoons were dead. Oh wait. That was missed. Yet the DC was not trying to kill the dragoons afterwards.
So make sure the fact that the Jaguars had taken the planet and did that after the DC lost it, plays into your revenge cry. It isn't like the DC wasn't brutalizing captive populations themselves.
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Requiem
07/04/18 08:50 PM
58.175.193.140
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When understanding the virtues that all Samurai should possess you will need to consider the following …
The Dictums of Purity and Honour
Giri (Duty) and Ninjo (Compassion)
From Nanso Satomi’s -Hakkenden
Loyalty
Filial Devotion / Piety
Duty and Obligation
Faith
Brotherly Affection
Sympathy and benevolence
Proper Form and Courtesy
Wisdom
Understanding the balance between Identity – Purpose – Fate
Tradition and Ceremony
Again understanding ‘face’ … this is a very real aspect and like honour is a state that can be given or taken away due to our actions and the actions of those whom serve under us or those actions within the main branch and sub branches of the family ….
Even in the far future of the Kurita Empire this must be considered … and must be acted upon like that of force of nature it simply is …
As for revenge … this is a too limited a definition or state of mind … too western a definition or understanding
As for stripping forces to blindly strike out … again this is in error … a supposition made upon unknown variables.
Look at WWII Pacific Theatre of Operations and that of Prime Minister / General Hideki Tojo for guidance and understanding.
Pilots …. at the Yasukuni Shrine …
Your understanding of Samurai Honour and face, as is that of the writers, is lacking … the ISF can find it and the DCMS can attack it … they have no choice but to destroy this ship … one way or another ... due to their actions at Turtle Bay.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/05/18 02:13 AM
66.74.61.223
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And the supposition that there are thousands of ships and fighters lying around ready to be sent out that aren't assigned to garrison duty is erroneous.
If there were forces to spare, then any invasion would always fail as these forces would pounce and destroy any force sent in. Even the sword of light regiments get assigned to protect worlds. They are not threatened like those on the border, but still on garrison duty. And it goes counter to all the implications of the game. No where does it suggest there are any extra forces to just send out. There are alot of areas, it is suggested, that to attack, you had to pull forces from elsewhere to do so. Even the 4th war had shown that one.
The definition of honor in the last post would mean that the FRR would never exist, as ALL, including house Kurita, would never have given up those planets. It is beyond a loss of face to have lost so many samurai to conquer them, then hand them over to those they fought to gain them.
Restating the first war had many worlds attacked by nukes. Which should mean the honor of the DC would force them to never stop attacking their foes. There could be no peace as the DC citizens were killed that way. Even the deep raids on Luthien could never be forgiven. Those were attacks on the lord of the samurai.
Especially when the LC assassinated the coordinator in the past.
And that works against the rulers as well. Purposefully harming your people for personal gains, such as starving planets so you can feast is dishonorable, and dispicable as well. So the sword bites in the other direction as well.
And suicide is normally the path chosen for those that fail. Disserting you post to hunt down someone is just as dishonorable.
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Requiem
07/05/18 06:25 AM
58.175.193.140
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Quote: And the supposition that there are thousands of ships and fighters lying around ready to be sent out that aren't assigned to garrison duty is erroneous.
Where did you get these figures from?
One Vengeance Carrier has 40 aerospace fighters – thus 120 to 200 fighters is 3 to 5 Carriers
An Invader Class Jump-ship has a capacity of 3 Dropships – thus 2 Jump-ships / or
A Star Lord Class Jump-Ship has a capacity or 6 Dropships – thus 1 Jump-ship
And this is used to go after one ship – the ship that perpetrated the Turtle Bay massacre.
So if we attach one of these RACTs to an elite anti-clan unit how many do you think the DCMS could put together 5 – 10 – 15 -20 or how about 50? as there are no records we are again back to guessing and what the game-master will allow in your game to go warship hunting and at the same time invading the periphery as a pirate raiding force.
Honour for a Samurai is extremely different to that of how a westerner would perceive it
First, get as many Akira Kurosawa films as you can and enjoy;
Second, start reading about the Tokugawa Clan; and
Third, this is difficult to find a book called Hakkenden by Nanso Satomi (if you can’t get this then go looking for the anime released in 1990 - 1991 by Geneon);
Also it would help if you have the ability to talk about this subject with Japanese senior citizen.
And remember Samurai equates to Draconis Combine not the Free Worlds League ….
As your points need to be refined …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/05/18 11:55 AM
66.74.61.223
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If you had all these units just waiting to be used, why would the alt history get to this point? They would be at war when the clans showed up, as they would be trying to expand the holdings of each nation.
Hell, the 4th war might still be raging if they had that many troops sitting around.
With that many fighters, you could shut down jump ship production in nations by blockade. Not hitting the facilities, but any shipments going to the factories. That alone would start straining any nation not able to retake the system.
And the FWL/DC were the only ones listed as making the Vengeance Carriers in objective raids. So it is unlikely to FC would have many to begin with, unless they were sold or were taken in combat. So that is something that would need to be addressed before you could begin your anti clan war. Wrong thread, but it just came to mind.
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Requiem
07/05/18 07:32 PM
58.175.193.140
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QUOTE: If you had all these units just waiting to be used, why would the alt history get to this point? They would be at war when the clans showed up …..
Writing military stories requires understanding the unorthodox as well as a deep understanding as to military tactics / strategies / procedures – all of which is currently lacking.
Again …. There are no real records regarding the air wing and Navy … As the writings are taken almost entirely from the point of view of the ‘Mech warrior is it any wonder everyone have issues regarding their Navy and aerospace assets.
As for creating a blockade ….send in the navy …. War in space as two navy aerospace groups clash …. So there are no blockades …. Consider the Navies throughout the world now – how many have carriers are there and how are these used politics / blockades ?????
As for how many vengeance carriers the FC have …. Supposition again … no records again …. So yes I can have my anti-Clan war …. You have your opinion and I have mine as to the scope of each great house’s naval assets as there are no records whatsoever all we can do is guess.
Just because the writers don’t understand how to write a good military novel we all suffer … you would have thought they would have used Pile’s; Richard Harding Davis’; or the historical documents of WWII etc. and used them as a template to write the Clan war etc.
Again my view of a second writing would be more enjoyable and a lot more realistic than that which is considered to be canon now.
Viva La Rewrite
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
12/28/19 06:07 AM
1.158.235.15
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May 3050 - the Jaguars razed the city of Edo using orbital bombardment from the Warship Sabre Cat.
Apparently at this stage the Clans were outraged by the Jaguars use of an Orbital Bombardment. Thus they were supposed to refrain from utilizing this tactic.
However,
In September 3050 – Zoetermeer - the Emerald Talon Naval Assault Star of Clan Jade Falcon arrived to take the planet. Emerald Talon were sent as the Falcons lacked any available ground troops. Positioning his ships above the planetary capital, Star Admiral Adrian Malthus threatened to bombard the world (in a bluff - as he was under orders not to do so). Seemingly with no other choice, Steiner forces surrendered.
So now the Inner sphere has not only experienced one attack, they have been threatened with a second attack by a second Clan – this time within the Lyran part of the FC.
The inner sphere now have confirmation with this second experience multiple clans will attack by utilizing warships at any time and any where …
And yet again, no one within the IS takes the threat of Warships seriously within the IS ….
Really … what would it take for the IS forces to take the threat of warships seriously and begin counter measures against them – for one to appear over a Capitol World and beginning a bombardment run!
This clearly shows a complete lack of tactical acumen when it comes to the games developers determining how the IS should respond to warships … sitting in the corner, eyes shut tight, fingers in your ears and humming loudly clearly didn’t work!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
12/28/19 02:21 PM
66.74.60.165
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The system was invaded by Clan Jade Falcon during the Invasion of September-October of 3050. Part of its Fourth Wave, Zoetermeer was taken by Emerald Talon Naval Assault Star. The WarShips orbited the planet and forced the survivors of the 10th Donegal Guards RCT & Alpha Battalion of the 12th Star Guards to surrender or be bombarded.[7] The Falcons targeted the world because there were rumors of a Star League depot. No such depot was found though.[1]
This is from the wiki.
Not sure where the positioning about the capital comes from, it isn't in this information.
But I will agree that clan Warships needed to be neutralized either by the IS sooner, or maybe the other clans starting to remove the dezgra clans that used them in such a way. Even in clan challenges, warships were largely ceremonial when other warships were not present. Honestly, the warships should have been kept out of the game for a while longer, as they were not really thought out well.
Tthe BS of not knowing the IS didn't have any is just that. BS. The reports for when the Dragoons were sending information back to the clans would have shown there was no building done by the houses they worked for, before they stopped reporting back. I find it odd that no other scouting forces from the clans were sent. Even Wolfnet stopped sending information back seems completely odd. I can see the warships escorting the invasion force to the IS, and being in a position to counter any that did show up, but to be leading the assaults? That is much like saying a normal, untamed fox will guard a hen house, but not mess with the chickens.
Now the idea of the houses not taking them seriously may not have been an oversight, but the writers still suggesting that there weren't the resources to do much about it. Mainly not enough fighter pilots to send to the front and still guard what needed to be guarded.
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Requiem
12/28/19 05:48 PM
1.158.235.15
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Look within the Sarna Wiki – ‘Sarah Steiner’ (Marshal of the 10th Donegal Guards circa 3050) – it contains the following information …. “Positioning his ships above the planetary capital”
What this shows,
First, even though the other Clans abhorred what the Jaguars did, decried the use of warships in such a manner … they are not above utilizing them for their own ends ….
Second, where is the bidding process … where is the honorable combat between warriors to determine the fate of a world … where is the sacred circle of equals …. The Falcons used deception to win the day …The Falcons have broken their own sacred rules regarding combat …. THE FALCONS HAVE NO HONOUR!
And yet no other Clan admonishes then for the use of deception in winning a planet … ALL THE CLANS HAVE NO HONOUR! … they have become that witch they hate!, but this is not surprising by this stage in their development the Clans military and their leaders are something Amaris and his forces would recognize as being very similar to their own … Nicholas' revenge upon his father is complete, the SLDF are now in body and soul belonging to Amaris and his ilk ....
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Now the idea of the houses not taking them seriously may not have been an oversight, but the writers still suggesting that there weren't the resources to do much about it.
Why would you have fighters and their pilots stationed in the rear in safety when the greater threat is the Clans Warships – they could just go from world to world unleash an orbital bombardment and in the space of less than a year every Great House in the entire IS will be destroyed – they have shown their willingness to use then now twice – and yet nothing is done to counter them.
There is no way the leaders of the IS would know of the Clans decision to stop using them.
So there is only one real recourse at this time - large scale aerospace fighter assault wings armed with nuclear tipped missiles.
To believe otherwise just shows the game developers complete lack of understanding.
Here, I can say the game became farcical – I can only hope that when they re-release the Clan invasion box they also re-write the invasion – as is, the story is a complete joke ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (12/28/19 05:53 PM)
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ghostrider
12/28/19 10:07 PM
66.74.60.165
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Why would you have fighters stationed in the rear? Have you heard of concentrated weakness?
You know. Where you leave your worlds under defended to not defended at all. How does that keep you people from revolting?
No matter what is happening in the front lines, you still need to protect as much as you can. Something that seems lacking in so of the posts.
And the issue may well be dropships and jumpships not being available to move said fighters.
Let's not forget that even having them, does not mean automatic destruction of the warships. You may well be sacrificing them all for surface or armor damage, and nothing more.
Now to saying the IS had no way to know of the clans methods, yet it is constantly suggested they know where the clans are at, and how to counter them due to the Dragoon meeting. So which is it?
Again. Pick one and stick with it.
Again with the only way statement. How about getting their own warships up, or at least having some anti ship weapons being built and installed anywhere they could to fight back. Oh yeah. That destroys the perfect response concept.
As a side note, if you want accurate war information, read the real books of the real world. This is a fictional game that uses magic jump ships to travel to stars up to 30 light years from their current position.
You want to say the game has issues. That's fine.
I am sure more then a few don't want to keep seeing your solution is the ONLY way to deal with it.
And one point you missed in the example of the Falcons vs the Jaguars use of a warship. The Falcons never fired, vs the Jaguars destroying an entire city.
No honor lost as some tactics involve meer threats to end a battle or force an enemy to retreat. Cry foul all you want, it does change this fact. Japan surrendered in WWII due to the threats of a continued nuke strikes against their lands. Wouldn't that mean the IS would surrender faster due to everyone thinking they will use the bombardments against all?
To be the first to Terra is the win. If the FC or DC folded due to the Falcons/Jaguars use of bombardments, then the ilclan could say if it is dishonorable or not. As much as it bites, the victors write history.
Also, it was said that if you have it, use it. Why isn't that the case now that it isn't the FC doing it?
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Requiem
12/29/19 01:04 AM
1.158.235.15
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I see we are back to the same arguments …. no credibility what so ever …
We must have all of our fighters guarding worlds that will not be attacked by any other Great Houses until after Tukayyid and the 15 year truce – Even though the greatest threat known to any Great House in the past 150-200 years has just arrived and has used their Warships now twice (once in the DC and once in the Lyran part of the FC) during their initial invasion and show no sign of not utilizing them in the future – yes, let’s just close our eyes and hum a happy tune and hope they just don’t use them again … great strategy …..
What about reserve units … the March Militias …. don’t they have fighter units? Can’t we put them on the border whilst the elite units go to war?
And, even though the amount of Jump-ships and Drop-ships utilized during the last succession war was three to five times that used during the Clan Invasion there must be a complete lack of ships available …
As for attacking a large warship with multiple squadrons – where every fighter has multiple nuclear missiles – laying a trap for them is relatively simple – the direction the Clans are moving is in a straight line after all it’s not like they have deviated since the second wave - as for the DC – Kamikaze!!
As long as we use an interpretation of what nukes do in the real world, and not the jumped up firecracker rules the game has come up with, all it will take is one 5Kt hit or even near explosion and the ship will be reduced to scrap.
Clan Methods – How quickly does the IS gain this information
First, there is the Meeting with the Dragoons on Outreach;
Second, there are captured Clan personnel during battle; such as when the 1st Somerset Strikers captured a Clan Warrior and she went through the rules with them;
Third, Commandoes operating within the rear with Black Boxes – so, how quickly will a Clansman last under advanced interrogation?
Pick the one that occurs first and stick with it …..
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Again with the only way statement. How about getting their own warships up, or at least having some anti ship weapons being built and installed anywhere they could to fight back.
Question – what about my suggestion of placing Naval weapons onto dropships – ow, yes the rules don’t allow that – you are not allowed to create PT craft and how long exactly does it take to build a warship, even a pocket warship? – ow, yes the games developers didn’t allow the IS to have any …. When the invasion started ….
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I am sure more then a few don't want to keep seeing your solution is the ONLY way to deal with it.
We have yet to receive your strategy? Please advise ….
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And one point you missed in the example of the Falcons vs the Jaguars use of a warship. The Falcons never fired, vs the Jaguars destroying an entire city.
Question – how did the leaders of the IS know that the Falcons wouldn’t fire – would you call their bluff when just 4 months prior one of the other Clans turned a city to wasteland killing and destroying everything in it – remember they are parked over the Capital City (how many millions of people live in the Capital?) and they are using these people AS THEIR HOSTAGES to gain your compliance – so what do you do?
Taking hostages – threatening to use an orbital bombardment as sanctioned by your Khan (when it was decided by all the Khans just prior to this to never use their Warships in this fashion again) is NOT a loss of honor? – REALLY????
Does that mean I can take Clan civilians as Hostages and I haven’t lost any honor – so taking hostages within the game is now a completely legitimate strategy, thanks for that ….
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Japan surrendered in WWII due to the threats of a continued nuke strikes against their lands.
Sorry but this is historically inaccurate – the bombs didn’t force Japan to surrender, Russia declaring war and invading caused Japan to surrender – the idea the bombs worked is pure propaganda. Read the Japanese texts regarding their meeting of their Military and Civilian leaders that was conducted after the US used the second bomb (as there wasn’t a meeting after the first bomb was dropped).
If WMDs are used (of which orbital bombardments would fit into this category) would any countries leader who has access to WMDs of their own would not use them in retaliation?
If you were a Great House how many millions of Nukes would you have? – also wouldn’t it be poly that every RCT had a permanent complement of nukes on hand just in case?
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To be the first to Terra is the win. If the FC or DC folded due to the Falcons/Jaguars use of bombardments, then the ilclan could say if it is dishonorable or not. As much as it bites, the victors write history.
I am sure the home Clans would have something to say on this matter – if you cannot win by using the rules as laid down by Kerensky himself then you have shown you are not worthy. How many would challenge for the destruction of the cheat! It has happened in the past where individuals / Clans have been caught braking the rules…
Quote:
Also, it was said that if you have it, use it. Why isn't that the case now that it isn't the FC doing it?
Sorry please explain this sentence on its own doesn’t make sense …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
12/29/19 03:53 AM
66.74.60.165
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Oh damn. If you were in charge of a country, you would be invaded within 2 minutes of believing your neighbors won't invade. And even IF they don't, the game has things like pirates and raiders that strike when they think they can get away with it.
Each clan is separate from the others. So the greatest threat is a bit overblown. Technically, the houses could have made a deal with the clans to let them use worlds and just hit Terra. But they didn't have this information. And as said before. The clans did not have enough soldiers to do a full invasion. How would one clan do that?
A fact you might be missing is simple. Why would the fighter pilots agree to kill themselves trying to take out a warship? Just normal fighting one is bad enough, but now you want to waste the fighters, which you don't have enough of to begin with, to take out one ship. This would leave a lot, if not all your worlds open to invasion, as you wouldn't have any fighters to defend with.
laying a trap for them is relatively simple
Wasn't it said that laying a trap for a warship was near impossible? Now you can do it on a whim. Wow.
It doesn't matter if the IS knew the Falcons would fire or not. As the rest of the clans were the only ones that could say anything about their conduct. They did not fire. So they did not cause themselves any major disgrace. They may have been viewed badly for using this tactic, but then the weak world surrendered instead of fighting and dieing like a true warrior would.
Does that mean I can take Clan civilians as Hostages and I haven’t lost any honor – so taking hostages within the game is now a completely legitimate strategy, thanks for that ….
Hmmm. Assassinations, commando raids... Isn't this down the same road? And honestly, the clans wouldn't really care much about you taking their people. Bondsmen are that very thing. And since they were taken, the people would be looked down on and ignored.
An after thought. What would you consider the populations of worlds taken by the clans, as you suggested they needed to be retaken immediately? The IS had no idea of just what the clanners would do. So this may give you some footing. Those worlds are now hostages to the clan that holds them.
Edited by ghostrider (12/29/19 04:13 AM)
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ghostrider
12/29/19 04:11 AM
66.74.60.165
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If you were a Great House how many millions of Nukes would you have? – also wouldn’t it be poly that every RCT had a permanent complement of nukes on hand just in case?
No. It would be completely stupid to have every RCT with nukes. What do you do? Take them to an enemy world and possibly lose them if you have to retreat quickly? Or someone rigs just one to blow. You lose all around it.
Leave them in the base? What happens when it is raided. Or worse. The commander decides to use it on someone he doesn't like. Maybe the civilian govenor upset him. And you risk having a lot of nuked worlds, as they would be the first thing used to prevent the enemy from gaining ground. Even just wiping out a base would be justified to some.
The saying, if you have it, it will be used.
I am sure the home Clans would have something to say on this matter – if you cannot win by using the rules as laid down by Kerensky himself then you have shown you are not worthy. How many would challenge for the destruction of the cheat! It has happened in the past where individuals / Clans have been caught braking the rules…
The home clans could say nothing, as they all agreed the first clan on Terra will be the ilclan. The one that rules over the rest. How they do it isn't judged as harshly as you think. It is possible though very unlikely, the home clans would have the forces or pull to call for a trial of annihilation. They lost the bid to even enter the IS.
It was stated that the IS (FC) should use nukes and such against the clans, yet the clans can't use their weapons to the full extent?
Now there is an outrage that they did use some tactics that would be considered dishonorable, but then the whole invasion came from the Jaguars distorting the truth of the IS, when they capture the Outbound Light. The clans have their own ideas on honor. To take a world with no losses would be considered the greatest tactics known to clankind.
The FC should never have come about. Plain and simple. They should have been destroyed in the 1st succession war. Start with the bs that they weren't.
I like the FS over the other houses. But this is a game.
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Requiem
12/29/19 05:57 AM
1.158.235.15
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Each clan is separate from the others. So the greatest threat is a bit overblown.
If two of the Clans have used Warships against ground forces within the IS, and all of the Clans have warships, on the balance of probability can you trust the enemy that has invaded the IS not use the greatest weapons they brought with them when they have already used them twice?
As the ruler of one of the Great Houses can you even take that Chance?
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The clans did not have enough soldiers to do a full invasion.
And yet when each Clan’s Khan was bidding on Strana Mechty they believed the force they had assembled would do the job. They were just too blinkered by what they believed the barbarians of the IS could accomplish against their genetically enhanced warriors.
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Why would the fighter pilots agree to kill themselves trying to take out a warship?
The same reason fighter pilots go to war in the first place.
So, how many do you believe it would take to kill one ship? With high speed and agility – 18 fighters should be able to take out one ship not a problem – so no it would not “leave a lot, if not all ‘of’ your worlds open to invasion” – so who is going to invade? Do you believe the Periphery will invade or how about Pirate Kings will invade and set up their own realms …. BS
Setting a trap for a warship is achievable …. Especially if they bring them into orbit together with the invasion Drop-ships – because if they don’t what do you think the IS aerospace fighters will target first – the Clan’s Drop-ships – with a one shot how many will be killed off due to the area affect of the warhead, if they are too close together, with one detonation within the middle it is possible all Clan drop-ships would evaporate into gas particles!
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It doesn't matter if the IS knew the Falcons would fire or not. As the rest of the clans were the only ones that could say anything about their conduct.
Really, so all the IS House Lords must just stand still and take it right up their <censored>!
Unless all the Clans communicate their intentions how does the IS understand what is really going on …. Remember the Cuban Missile Crisis in this situation Kennedy and Khrushchev are not talking … no back channel communication here at all to stop nuclear Armageddon! – and they are still no communication during a second attack … the only rational cause is to hit hack as hard as you can and with the biggest ‘stick’ you can find.
They have the Jump-ships, Drop-ships, Fighters, pilots and Nukes … let’s see if the Clan’s Khans will stand still and take it right up their <censored> when their invasion fleets are hit with multiple nuclear strikes!
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…but then the weak world surrendered instead of fighting and dying like a true warrior would.
So if this was reversed and a Clan unit was on the surface they wouldn’t surrender when their capitol is threatened with an orbital bombardment by the IS?
So now Bondsman = Hostages …. That’s interesting … one you capture in battle and decide they can now work for you, the other they are being held as security for the fulfillment of a condition – they are in no way going with their hostage takers to work for them.
One more question why does the IS always have to take the point of view of the Clan society norms and practices.
This is half the problem if the Clans are unwilling to learn and understand the IS societies and in not understanding this will lead to cultural misunderstandings and war followed by the Clans glowing in the dark.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
12/29/19 06:54 AM
1.158.235.15
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Sarna Wiki ….The Amaris Lancers …. They would later take ten thousand civilians hostage, and use them to prevent the SLDF from using artillery and aerospace strikes against their positions ….
One step closer …to becoming the decedents of the Amaris Empire Armed Forces ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
12/29/19 02:01 PM
66.74.60.165
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History of the IS has had each nation use nukes on each other. The only real difference between a warship and a nuke is the nuke can only be use once. Now if they had millions like you suggested, they are far worse then warships.
Also, the clans started skipping worlds with large forces to take as much territory as they could. So with that, they broke their own traditions. I do agree the warships should not have been used outside of the jump points, or maybe not even enter the IS. But you need the big threat to bring the houses together.
And yet when each Clan’s Khan was bidding on Strana Mechty they believed the force they had assembled would do the job.
This statement is false. They were not bidding to do a full invasion, but to go from the edge of the IS and take Terra. This is a huge difference. This may be part of why understanding isn't there.
Any soldier goes into battle with the hope they will live thru it. That hope is why they fight so hard. Knowing you will die no matter what.. look at what the Japanese kamikazis did. They splashed their planes instead of running into the ship. They are not robots programmed to die on command. For someone that spouts human nature, you sure miss a lot of things.
Now it was not said the pirates and raiders would invade, but they would start havoc all over you worlds, and without forces to kick them back off, they may well set up an empire in your space. And that isn't saying much for revolutions that would happen if you didn't protect them or speedily remove any force that did take the world.
Also, your figure of 18 fighters should be able to bring down a warship with ease is off. Maybe the old Congress warship. But that does have anti fighter weapondry. The sheer armor on most of the rest would stop most of their attacks. The fighters would probably run out of fuel before they could break thru. They have issues with dropships. Warships would be far worse. And this is assuming the warship is by itself and has no fighters of their own.
Bondsman in their forms are prisoners that are forced to do as their master says until they test out to become a warrior. Non combatants would remain forced workers forever. With knowing your family member is one of those on the clan ships or in their base, are you as likely to attack it with full force? Do you really think a noble or government official would allow the military to fight as they need to, in order to take out a clan force? That means risking their family. Not very likely.
Another point with this. With the exception of actively assisting your captors, would you prefer to do as they say, or deal with being a full fledged prisoner. Remember that the clans do interrogate prisoners. I doubt any of them would want that again, or maybe a partial brainwashing effect takes place.
Part of that point of the hostages, deals with other IS nations. The DC was known to remove the populations of worlds to put their own loyal people in, and move said hostages deeper into the Combine. So the clan way of life is so different from the IS, but they haven't done anything more then the houses have done to each other.
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Requiem
12/29/19 07:08 PM
1.158.235.15
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Now if they had millions like you suggested, they are far worse than warships.
Hardly … in any nuclear exchange they would be utilized rapidly and continually and upon every world where combat is ongoing – and then upon every world where the military industrial complexes reside as well as where the military will need to divert their limited number of Jump-Ships to ensure humanitarian aid. This is exactly the same strategy to which the Navy will be required to do.
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…. you need the big threat to bring the houses together.
Yes … these ships are the biggest threat on the block … and during a war what do you do with the biggest threat? You take it out will all due alacrity … just look at the WW2 Royal Navy Vs. Kriegsmarine …. Bismarck, Tripitz, Scharnhorst, Prinz Eugen, Admiral Graf Spee … all iconic names and battles even to this day! …. So how do you deal with a situation where the Clans are the only ones with a navy? … there is a massive inequality here! …. So either warships are removed entirely from the invasion (which is highly unlikely); The IS has begun building and have their own fleet of Warships prior to the invasion (would make more sense); or you allow IS big wing / Drop-Ship PT craft into the game armed with Nuclear ordinance (as a stop gap measure until the IS are able to build pocket warships – however this will take how many years?) – So make a choice and stick with it – just sitting there and doing nothing when there has been two incidents involving Warships (one in the DC and the other in the Lyran FC) is not a response any IS Leader would contemplate – so unless there is a media gag about both these incidents, and within both realms, wouldn’t the people and the Aristocracy of both realms become riled to their leaders inaction – fear of what the Clans could do – just park a warship over your world and annihilate their Capitol – especially if your world was in the path of the Clans onslaught – how many worlds populations would be clamoring to be relocated out of the invasion corridor at this time?.
These are the true human issues that were never discussed by TPTB, and in all likely hood will never be discussed (in my opinion they do not know how to do so). As when the Clan conquer a world the population of every world just rolls over and does nothing – even upon worlds where there has always been a desire for independence which leads to an almost constant insurrection – So, what ever happened to the Free Skye Movement?
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They were not bidding to do a full invasion, but to go from the edge of the IS and take Terra. This is a huge difference. This may be part of why understanding isn't there.
Sorry, but this statement is very accurate, they bid for a specific purpose (to reach and conquer Terra) and by the half way mark they discovered the IS forces were far more competent than was originally believed and even the addition of the reserve Clans were not enough to establish the final push to Terra – so, they needed reinforcements from the Clan Home Worlds and at the same time they do not want to be seen as weak by doing so – so they do what every leader does in such a situation – they cheat with the idea of garrison units (as they do not form a part of the original bid!) … and every invading clan goes along with this rational as they are in the same boat … and yet TPTB forget entirely about how the Home Clans should have reacted to this politically … There should have been a trial by the Home Clans Objecting to this …and thus a circle of equals …. For if the Home Clan’s objections are held above those of the invading Clans, doesn’t this mean that additional Home Clans should be allowed to invade to become the il-Clan – whereas the invaders are fighting for their reinforcements and to keep additional Home Clans out of the IS?
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Any soldier goes into battle with the hope they will live thru it. That hope is why they fight so hard. Knowing you will die no matter what.. look at what the Japanese kamikazis did.
Sorry but this is inaccurate … a Kamikaze pilot went willingly to their death …. It was the highest Honor to do so … they splashed their plains because they either missed or were shot out of the sky …. are there any records showing your assertion? please provide web address ...
Question: How many Pirate bands are out there? And how many would poke the bear? – and all over your realm? … sorry,but this statement has never worked … even during the succession wars you never read about pirate raiders or worlds demanding succession – they never were and never will be an issue / threat! – I know the “Chaos March” – get a grip this was one of the most stupid inventions of the TPTB – if a situation like this arose it would have been slapped down in two seconds flat – and yet why would a world declare their independence when they are surrounded by superpowers and they do not have any forces to defend themselves whist at the same time, unless they are self-sufficient they are completely <censored>! … this is a complete load of BS
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Also, your figure of 18 fighters should be able to bring down a warship with ease is off. Maybe the old Congress warship. But that does have anti fighter weaponry. The sheer armor on most of the rest would stop most of their attacks.
If you are utilizing conventional weapons … yes …. However, if you utilizing one 5Kt nuke not so much – one hit or near hit and the thermal energy released will melt (turn into gas) any human made material – or have we created a warship that can travel through a sun now?
Fighters per warship – excluding those with an attached Drop-ships and with their complement of aerospace fighters
Vincent – 6
Essex – 6
Lola – 6
Aegis – 18
Congress – 6
Black Lion – 18
Sovetskii Soyuz – 18
Cameron – 16
Potemkin – None
Texas – 40
Mckenna – 50
So if you match you attack number to be in excess of the Warships capability, there is still a very good chance of just one getting through with just one missile (in reality this is all it would take!). However I would also like to add the following, the Clans came into the IS with a set numbers – would they then restrict their front line forces numbers because they fear the IS may attack a warship? Thus isn’t it more probable they would have only a skeleton number of aerospace assets per warship?
And let us not forget the IS has access to Vengeance Class Drop-Ships – That’s 40 Fighters each (and let us not argue about numbers – nowhere is it written anywhere as to the numbers each House possesses – thus it is all semantics!)
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Bondsman in their forms are prisoners that are forced to do as their master says
i.e. SLAVES
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With knowing your family member is one of those on the clan ships or in their base, are you as likely to attack it with full force?
DC attack – yep not a problem – they die for the glory of the Dragon.
FS – yes, this may pose a problem.
However for a clan to do this they are knowingly utilizing the tactics Amaris used upon the SLDF (refer to my post above)…. So, what is the chance of that occurring – get caught or informed upon and DEZGRA! – would any Clansman even obey the order to taking hostages – Sorry, but I cannot see any true Clansman within the invasion going down this path!
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With the exception of actively assisting your captors, would you prefer to do as they say, or deal with being a full fledged prisoner.
1st Somerset Strikers and the episodes regarding the Concentration Camp – I would be in there with them! – Those who trade safety for security will soon find themselves with neither!
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The DC was known to remove the populations of worlds to put their own loyal people in, and move said hostages deeper into the Combine
Consider the logistical necessities of this statement – so, not whole populations – just the ringleaders and their families is a more plausible scenario . Also, every House would have this policy. However, as for the Clans this would be a case by case choice – The Jaguars would just execute them on the spot, the Bears and Cats – who knows, I have yet to read any judicial response by the Clans as to a captured worlds society – again I doubt TPTB know how to write this into a book.
I also find it amazing how everything must be taking to the absolute worst case scenario, there is no other scenario that can be possibly be considered to be a viable strategy …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (12/29/19 07:09 PM)
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ghostrider
12/29/19 09:00 PM
66.74.60.165
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Having nukes being used continually and rapidly is a good thing? And you think that humanitarian aid is possible on those worlds? And it was be a limited amount of ships?
Large units of aerofighters isn't the issue, but stripping worlds to make them is. Needing dropships and jumpships to move them means stripping worlds of them as well. There is no build up here. Just response to a threat. If they had started making wings of fighters over a decade, I can see that. But to just yank them from worlds... That is a big issue.
And if you really look at the whole clan thing, they were made to be stopped. Limited numbers of warriors, with an ego that wouldn't let them use numbers, even if they could. With long supply lines. Even with the warships, they were made to be beaten.
Suggesting what the clans would do, and not understanding how they actually think is causing issues here. The home clans would become a little more active in pushing for all of them to be able to hit, but think about it. If they did, the LC/DC/FRR would be obliterated. There would be no time to build or even come up with strategies to stop them. And with the first nuke used, they would destroy all means to strike back. Meaning jumpships would be taken out as soon as they are found as well as the facilities that make them. PURE LOGIC. Happened in all the wars fought in earth. Find their ability to wage war and hit it as hard and often as you can. The clans were safe for a while from any sort of retaliation to their ship yards. So they nerfed the clans to avoid this situation. Which would have been the logical response.
And again. The PGCs are not cheating, as they are part of the history of the clans, they do void any challenges if they become offensive during the fight. But again. This does not support the argument that canon is wrong.
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ghostrider
12/29/19 09:11 PM
66.74.60.165
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Sorry but this is inaccurate … a Kamikaze pilot went willingly to their death …. It was the highest Honor to do so … they splashed their plains because they either missed or were shot out of the sky …. are there any records showing your assertion? please provide web address ...
For someone that loves to spout history, you seem to forget things that don't support your ideas. During the later parts of the war, where Kamikaze attacks became the norm, the pilots were WELDED into the cockpits, so they could escape. So willing pilots had to be trapped into their cockpits? Several historical shows have talked to those very pilots and they explained what was going on.
Otherwise, the entire attack wing over Hawaii would have sunk every last ship in the harbor, as they would have ran their craft into the ships.
Question: How many Pirate bands are out there? And how many would poke the bear? – and all over your realm? … sorry,but this statement has never worked … even during the succession wars you never read about pirate raiders or worlds demanding succession – they never were and never will be an issue / threat! –
So you have not actually read the history or stories of the IS, nor seen the adventure packs. Pirates have always raided the IS, even when the states were not at war. The fact that Phelan was pirate hunting those that hit the FRR when he was captured is what? Just something I made up? That same band raided the LC/FC as well. And there was no war going on at those times. Hmm.
As a side note, the Federation of Skye threatened to pull out of the LC during the 4th war, when they started being counter attacked by the DC. Part of why the LC agreed to end it, as the Interdiction against the FS portion made coordination hard if not impossible.
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ghostrider
12/29/19 09:25 PM
66.74.60.165
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The number of fighters assigned to each warship is fine, but each warship has dropships with it... So that figure is wrong. Also, what makes you think they don't destroy the dropship the fighters are launching from, taking out your wing of fighters? As you suggested in another thread, the sensors on those warships would see you before you got close.
would any Clansman even obey the order to taking hostages – Sorry, but I cannot see any true Clansman within the invasion going down this path!
So all of the people taken to the reeducation camps for comstar was all comstar personnel? None of the clan warriors, mainly elementals didn't take them knowing what Comstar would do with them? And the commanders were even more in the dark? Not at all likely.
There is a major problem with your idea of the Combine. There are more then a few that did not believe in Bushido, or follow it. Those that did were a smaller amount then those that didn't. But then you would have to actually read the books to see that. Wolves on the border shown that as well as Heir to the dragon. The Black Dragon Society didn't adhere to it, as they opposed the coordinator, and didn't martyr themselves when they failed. They sent others to do the dirty work. Ooops.
there is no other scenario that can be possibly be considered to be a viable strategy …
This is the impression that comes out every time the canon is wrong, and your vision is the only correct one. I don't disagree that the story has faults and needs work. I do disagree that yours is the only way to right it. It is based on information that is available to the player, but would not be known to the characters in the story at the time it was being done. But some how, that point is missed every time.
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Requiem
12/29/19 10:45 PM
1.158.235.15
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Having nukes being used continually and rapidly is a good thing?
Then which weapon system can be used by the IS circa 3050 to take on and destroy a Clan Warship?
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And you think that humanitarian aid is possible on those worlds?
Yes.
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Large units of aero-fighters isn't the issue, but stripping worlds to make them is.
Difference of opinion based a lack of supporting information –
First, FC use of drop-ships and Jump-ships during the Clan invasion can be said to be significantly less than that of the previous Succession War – so how can there be an issue of transporting large numbers of aerospace fighters to the front lines – thus establishing Big Wing Attach Units;
Second, there is no real evidence as to the number of fighters produced by the FC and the DC over any one year in addition to the total number of fighters within each Houses TO&E – thus we are back to the same old situation where everyone is guessing – however we do know every House can manufacture fighters and we do know every house is going through a period of expansion – as evidenced in the number of new ‘Mechs and land vehicles being produced. So why can’t you extrapolate this over the fighters as well?
So how many can be manufactured from the end of the war of 3039 to 3050/51 when Big Wing Attack Groups should start their offensive against the Clans Warships – my bet more than a couple of Hundred to even 500 for the FC alone – it just comes down to what they are willing to order and how much this would cost – but as we don’t have the FC financials for that ten year period we are again at a loss
Third, there are many Military Colleges thought the IS that produce pilots – if there aren’t enough fighters why educate them to become pilots?
Fourth, we do know military units do have fighters attached to them - just because TPTB focuses everything to that of the ‘Mechs does not mean that they are even more rare than that of the ‘Mech back in 3025.
20 Year Update the FC had 250+ Regiments – so are you trying to say many of these never had air support?
Plus wouldn’t the majority of major Space-stations and space-ports have aerospace fighters attached – customs – ensuring Drop-ships don’t deviate an land who knows where – also wouldn’t these fighters be also attached to the local Reserve Units / Bush Fire Units to act as reconnaissance?
In all reality there must be far more fighters within the IS than that of the number of ‘Mechs available!!!!!
So putting together 5/6 Big wings of 40 fighters each for both the FC and the DC shouldn’t be a problem (Nt: the DC should also be able to establish many Kamikaze Units in addition to this)
Really I don’t see the problem. So, you can say they don’t have the numbers; However I can also say yes they do – prove it! – book title- page No. – supporting written evidence please.
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The home clans would become a little more active in pushing for all of them to be able to hit, but think about it. If they did, the LC/DC/FRR would be obliterated.
Disagree, first they Invading Clans have to loose the battle – then with attrition warfare, cutting their supply lines – increased partisan activity within the Clan Occupation Zone – the entire IS shifting to a pure war economy as the US did during WW2 – then there is the massive issue of Clan’s Sibkos and how may graduate each year to become warriors – so, yes, it is highly doubtful the Clans could sustain such losses over a long period of time – over time their Loss Depletion Rate will become too great for them to sustain the war, it is either retreat or die for those Clans remaining in the IS!
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And with the first nuke used, they would destroy all means to strike back.
Do the Clan’s even possess an intelligence apparatus within the IS that is that sophisticated that it is able to find every hidden nuclear bunker repository? Are they even able to ensure they are not sent to the front line?
No more than two to three months from the second Warship incident within the FC (Lyran Space) before the first retaliatory strike is sent out within FS Space – as for the DC my prediction is they should have already started theirs by this time period.
The game is now based upon Aerospace – ‘Mechs are now sidelined …..
This is the PURE LOGICICAL situation when one side is the only side that has Warships and the other side only has nuclear missles available – if you want this to be changed then both sides must have access to naval grade weapons upon ships so that both sides can engage each other, this is the only way out of a Nuclear Armageddon scenario (Cuban Missile Crisis) that was established by TPTB by allowing only the Clans to have them!
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And again. The PGCs are not cheating, as they are part of the history of the clans,
Does any game allow for extra units to be added? Say a point system game – you are each allowed 2000 points, however one of you is being thrashed – so that person who is being thrashed is then allowed to bring in who knows how many points units to win the day? How does that hold to the original rules – the initial bid, they found out it wasn’t enough – and they cheated! If you play Clan stick to bid or give up playing them! Or rewrite the entire game to explain why they allowed to cheat ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
12/29/19 11:19 PM
66.74.60.165
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The concept of the number of fighters being built and having huge amounts of them are the problem here. If there were huge numbers of fighters, then units would not need to give up theirs in order to be used in another system, as a few stories have suggested.
Now. The suggestion that they should have built up the large numbers to counter the clans means time warps or seeing the future. At the end of the 3039 war, other then replacing what was lost, a huge expansion was not forseen. As a player with all the information, you are taking future issues and suggesting that the old story line should have countered it long before it was even playing out. Not sure why this fact is being missed. When 3039 war was done, did you know the clans were coming? The in game line is where it's at. Not the future is known, so counter it now.
20 Year Update the FC had 250+ Regiments – so are you trying to say many of these never had air support?
RTCs had built in air support as well as some of the other units used in assaults. But others did not. Hence the term Regimental Combat Team. The definition and stats are given for them. If all had air assets then the term is not necessary, and there are a few regiments that state they did not have air support as they were pure mech units. Now. There were some unattached air units.
I don't know why you think there are more fighters then mechs. A fighter regiment is half of a mech regiment in number. If the fighters were more numerous then invasions and raids would be far less likely, as the defenders would have the ability to shoot down dropships. As a few scenarios in the books say a simple unit of 4 fighters plus 3 leopard dropshisp went to meet some raiders in orbit. An overlord was considered enough fighters to launch raids. So that suggests the defenders didn't have regiments sitting around.
From the response, you didn't understand the concept of the home clans getting involved in the invasion. That would mean the home clans would be sending in their forces to hit the IS, with those already there. That is why the LC/DC would get obliterated. ALL the clans would be invading. And it would not be in the small corridor the initial 4 used.
The clans only need to know where jumpships were being made and wipe them out. That, as well as taking out the operating jumpships would give them full superiority to jump between systems, meaning each world would be on it's own. As I have not heard of any new ship yards being built the information they have, or could gain, should be enough to take them out. The lithium batteries should be charged so they jump in, wipe out the manufacturing plants, and jump out, before the defenders can respond. Not the clans honor route, but it would be enough to stop nuke attacks from being sustained.
Also, suggesting canon nukes are better then they are is an problem here as well. The alt is fine, but saying canon is the same thing is wrong.
I guess you haven't played some of the adventure packs where one or both sides have reinforcements on the way, and can bring them in on the turn rolled. So yes. There are games that do allow them. As for you picking what forces there are, only the MAC one has that and it limits to just one lance from the Barton's Regiment.
And you are still missing the points of the PGC. They are defending worlds, not taking them. The bid is for assault, not defense, unless a challenge is done to the defender. Something the IS didn't know about until after the Dragoon meeting. Oh wait. They didn't use future information before it was supposed to be available. Hmmm. Maybe that is why the poor choices made were done so.
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Requiem
12/30/19 02:34 AM
1.158.235.15
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as a few stories have suggested.
Which ones? and which time periods do they relate to? as I don’t remember any such stories ….
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At the end of the 3039 war, other then replacing what was lost, a huge expansion was not forseen.
… and for the past how many centuries have these succession wars raged … so what you suggesting is that Hanse Davion (the greatest military mind of his generation) as well as all the other Houses will just sit back and replace what is lost for well over the past eleven years … time to come up with something a little more realistic and plausible! …
Let’s consider the most rational and logical cause of events …. 4th Succession War …. Followed by the Capellan’s fall War (where the CC no longer exists – they have now been absorbed into the FC) …. And the FWL have just gone through a civil war to determine whom the next Captain General will be…
And let us also consider the Canon history as well …
Then let us ask one question - How many times more powerful is the FC compared to the remaining Houses combined?
So, when the next succession war comes if the FWL, CC (if they still exist) and the DC DO NOT start an arms race starting 3039 the chances are that the FC will just annihilate them all by the end of the next great Succession War. Just replacing their numbers, as at 3039, WILL NOT stave off the inevitable – these’ three’ houses have but one chance - to build as many units as possible and hope and pray they are able inflict (as per the first succession wars) enough damage where the border remains constant for the whole (just a change in a couple of border worlds).
This is the IS reality, circa 3039, maximize your military industrial complexes output as well as your academy / general enlistment (The Draft) or by the end of 3050’s the FC will be the only Great House Remaining.
It doesn’t take a prognosticator to see that this is how the IS is moving. To suggest otherwise - it just doesn’t make any sense (reality).
Question – what would happen if you sent in a unit that didn’t have air support to one that did? Air superiority has been required since WW1 - an interdiction is required. To believe you would send your forces in without the ability to counter the enemies air superiority is beyond ludicrous – how many worlds would have conventional fighters / conventional bombers? All they need to do is gain enough altitude so that your weapons are out of range and they can bomb you with impunity – yes this really makes sense!!!!!!!
Sorry, but the assumption you would only give some of your units fighters and others none at all just doesn’t work.
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I don't know why you think there are more fighters than ‘Mechs.
D-Day WW2 …. Rommel was correct …. “we must hold then to the beaches for if they gain a foothold ….” And for the Battletech Game … this is in space before they are able to enter the upper atmosphere … and this can only be achieved with aerospace fighters ….
The question is, …. who gains air superiority? And where is the quote to prove your assertion as to aerospace fighter numbers?
And even if you didn’t have the numbers up to 3039 – you have eleven years to rectify this!
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ALL the clans would be invading. And it would not be in the small corridor the initial 4 used.
The Clans are all about superiority, correct? Thus there must always be a winner and a looser … this means if the Home Clans win the argument there must be a second round bid to determine who will assist those Clans already at war with the IS and those Clans who must, again, stay at home – so not all the Clans but an additional number of Clans. And remember how long will it take for them to arrange the challenge … fight the challenge … and if the Home Clans Win arrange for their units to be sent to the IS – 6 months there one month to battle – one – two months to arrange your units and supply requirements – six months to return to the IS – so 13 / 14 months at a minimum – a lot can happen in that time period for the IS Clans.
And what if Trent was part of this so that when he returned ComStar now had the exodus route? What would happen if the IS opened a second front upon the Clan Home Worlds? They have the ability to do it ….
With regards to taking out the IS Jumpship Ship Yards … where is it written the Clans engage in scorched earth tactics? Again this is something Amaris and his forces would contemplate not the descendants of the SLDF – for if this was correct wouldn’t they have done it with their warships prior to / first wave of the invasion - or how about when The Falcons attempted to take Coventry? Sorry but this assumption again does not hold water.
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So yes. There are games that do allow them.
So when the Clan invasion game was released, did the adventure pack at that time allow for the entire Clan army for each Clan to call in reinforcements at the scale they did – or should it have been limited to the previous bid?
So does this mean the IS can call in reinforcements of those units that disappeared from the 20 year update book and were never seen in the next Great House Book? It’s only about 150 Regiments for the FC that’s all – no biggie!
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And you are still missing the points of the PGC. They are defending worlds, not taking them.
Really? So in the future they are never / ever allowed to engage in conquering worlds? get real they were used for conquering worlds …. To believe otherwise is again unrealistic.
It is quite clear that TPTB clearly did not understand the Clan Invasion – this is why it is now up to the fans to fix the many, many problems throughout the scenarios they created ….
Questions –
How many ‘Mechs / elementals on average did the Clans assign to attacking a FC RCT?
What would happen if the RCT used its ‘Mechs as bait and then used all of their fast attacking vehicles in a pincer maneuver to get in behind the Clan’s ‘Mechs and attack in one massive wave upon their rear, whist at the same time use all their support vehicles and artillery to lob in mass LRM strikes, plus you provide all of your infantry with support weapons capable of even killing an elemental?
That’s three regiments of vehicles all hitting the Clan’s Mechs at the same time.
For some reason I can’t remember reading this occurred – that is until Wolcott.
TPTB must have forgotten they were even there ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
12/30/19 05:24 PM
66.74.60.165
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I believe the invasion of Towne by the Black Dragon Society had a single Stuka as the sole air defense for the world. There are a few others that I can't remember where at this point. I want to say a few of the worlds Davion invaded in the 4th war had no air defenses.
… and for the past how many centuries have these succession wars raged … so what you suggesting is that Hanse Davion (the greatest military mind of his generation) as well as all the other Houses will just sit back and replace what is lost for well over the past eleven years
Now this shows that you forget that the military does not have an unlimited budget, or probably don't understand economics in general. X amount for the military means when rebuilding, you don't get to spend more then that without other departments ripping into you for ignoring them. I mean why bother rebuilding anything, including the factories that produce your war toys? To increase military sizes, you need to spend even more. But I know this reality doesn't fit in with the perfect scenario. So instant buildings of all military assets, including warships and no price limits... Wait. This isn't the alt, being as it is ragging on canon... So I guess there is more behind the scenes things then shown.
Again. The assumption that there are enough units to give all the regiments the resources they want is there. Oh wait. That means that there isn't the huge stockpile of equipment just lying around, waiting for pilots, as suggested. But then there is no numbers printed except where they do say how many mechs are made in the IS and that they can barely keep up with losses due to raids... Hmmm. More evidence that mechs don't pop out of the rulers butts. The League was hurting for resources before it fell the first time. Why would there be a huge influx 300 years later with planets being blown apart. Well with the exception of the unlimited budgets the houses have to rebuild not only the infrastructure, but to produce unlimited equipment for all. Sound about right?
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ghostrider
12/30/19 05:45 PM
66.74.60.165
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Air superiority is measured in what still flies. It may well be just one fighter, or a dropship. And that does not dictate a automatic wins for those that have them. Raids and some invasions have been done without having air superiority. But then actually reading the books would have to be done, and that would have prevented this discussion in the first place.
11 years to build up forces for a conflict with an enemy no one knows of... Sounds like knowing the outcome of the next war in advance, and fixing the problems now. 3029. You know the FS/LC will invade the CC/DC. So you are saying they should have known this and had been building up their forces to counter it in 2950? This is exactly what you are saying.
The home clans winning the debate may not end in an agreement with who goes next, but all deciding to save their forces and just have all that can, hit the IS. It has already been shown that the 'strongest' clans couldn't do the job, and probably said the IS doesn't honor the Batchall, so they need to be punished. No bids. No fights to see who goes next. Just a full invasion to rid the clans of the dezgra IS.
So in a tactical sense, you would think that an invader would not take out ship yards once you started nuking their forces? Make sure you couldn't do that again and again? Now add that to what would happen if they found your homes. That's right. Only the FC can react like it's the end of their lives. No one else could.
It is quite clear that TPTB clearly did not understand the Clan Invasion
This statement and the inability to realize a lot about the clans shows you are not understanding the whole clan invasion. As you are the only one saying it is completely wrong and saying your version is the only one that makes sense shows thru.
The initial invasion was set for 4 clans plus one in reserve. Then it changed to 6 clans with more in reserve. Wait. That means the WHOLE invasion was changed. And the clans can bring in additional resources, means the bid before they won. The PGCs are garrison clusters. To be honest, the writers could have had all the clans use all the forces, but chose to nerf them to allow the story line to advance to defeating the clans. Something that seems to still be missing. So the story didn't end with the clans taking Terra. If nothing else, they failed to give the clans the knowledge that taking Terra would not stop the war. Terra is not the center of the IS forces.
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