Requiem
07/13/18 01:02 PM
58.175.193.140
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In for a penny in for a pound ….
With the invasion of the Inner Sphere by the Clans in 3050 and onwards a major shift in how battles were fought was forced upon the forces of the Inner Sphere.
We have many major and minor occasions when Inner Sphere forces were required to adopt Clans ways to win ….
We have….
• The Draconis Combine victory over Clan Smoke Jaguar on Wolcott;
• The Federated Commonwealth victory over Clan Jade Falcon on Twycross; and
• The ComGuard victory on Tukayyid.
Then in the future we have others …
• Operation Bulldog;
• Operation Serpent; and
• Finally the great refusal upon Strana Mechty.
However I am at a dismay as to why there was never a minor refusal issued.
By know you are wondering where I am taking this post …..
OK, post Comstar / ComGuard’s victory upon Tukayyid over the Clans they were forced to suspend their invasion towards Terra for fifteen years. During this period first Clan Smoke Jaguar and then followed quickly by Clan Wolf, both introduced Provisional Garrison Clusters into the Inner Sphere to Garrison their worlds against the Inner Sphere.
The introduction of PGC can also be considered to be going against their original Biding that took place upon Strana Mechty prior to their Invasion of the Inner Sphere.
Given that the Draconnis Combine had an active spy network throughout the Smoke Jaguar / Nova Cat and even Ghost Bear enclaves – and they were also operating missions out of Wolcott – thus it is quite improbable this build up was not missed by either the DCMS or by DEST.
My supposition is thus, Theodore Sama, in his capacity of Coordinator would inform the Star League Council of this troubling event. This would then be acted upon – Brining the experience of Wolfs Dragoons as experts to the forum - could not the SLDF issue a challenge to the Clans as a whole, a Right of Refusal, as to the Introduction of PGCs into the Inner Sphere?
Considering it is Smoke Jaguars using ‘legal trickery” and semantics to get around their original bid to allow the introduction of these additional forces how would the others take it?
(The Wolves just accepted the legal trickery by introducing PGCs of their own)
Would it come down to party lines Crusader Vs. Warden Again?
Would they even contemplate such an offer by the SLDF?
Considering an Inner Sphere / SLDF victory would deny the Clans any additional reserve forces (PGCs) into the Inner Sphere and would in all account allow for a more comprehensive victory in the future rather than just one Clan?
Thus, in my opinion, this is an additional plot hole that was not considered and acted upon and if not why not given the vital strategic importance this would have provided to the forces of the Inner Sphere in the event of a victory for the SLDF?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
07/13/18 01:22 PM
58.175.193.140
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At the very least if the Clans did refuse the Right of Refusal could not the Inner Sphere / SLDF get an undertaking by the Clans that these Garrison Units are not to be utilized in any future invasion actions within the Inner Sphere?
That is to say the Inner Sphere could use their own legal trickery and semantics against them – as Garrison Forces they are there to keep the peace upon certain worlds – they are not allowed to be utilized as invasion forces - thus how are they allowed to utilized in the event of a challenge for the right to own a planet? Not allowed to be used or allowed to be used?
As their initial bid was the amount of forces – “the only forces!” - they declared they would win the war with the Inner Sphere with ….. so how are they allowed to use PGCs within the Inner Sphere … they would have to further define their use of them by utilizing legal semantics once again ….
Another slight victory to the Inner Sphere and the SLDF?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/13/18 10:20 PM
66.74.61.223
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Have you asked the actually developers if the 'legal trickery' of using garrison forces is correct?
I have yet to see anywhere in the books where the use of them is against the bidding.
The implied part of this is that they are not used in any current conflict, therefore not part of the bid.
Until you get it from the developers, putting up false information is part of the issue with the alt history.
And look at the time line. The wolves had the PGC's almost on station before the others even authorized their use of them. So the wolf acceptance is incorrect.
As a side note, I will ask that any non canon threads be marked as such, since people coming here need to know before they read the posts, it is not canon. It has been requested of others, and so far, all have complied without much fuss.
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Requiem
07/14/18 12:44 AM
58.175.193.140
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QUOTE: Have you asked the actually developers if the 'legal trickery' of using garrison forces is correct?
No …. I did write, “in my opinion” …. Comprehension is that this is a debate upon semantics and the legality of the situation
I am putting forward in my debate that …
…. In contending that a garrison unit can be considered part of the invader unit … and since it is part of an invader unit it is subject to the same laws and the same restrictions.
First Both Garrison Unit and Invading Unit belong to the same army and both have the same end goal … to reach Terra …. and thus become the IL-Clan …
Second, the bidding itself …. In a nut shell it says … form all the forces that are at my disposal I will only utilize “this much” of my available forces to achieve my end goal …. to reach Terra …. and thus become the IL-Clan …
Then let us consider what an Invader unit purpose is – it is to invade, engaging all adversarial combatants, conquering them, then to hold the land they have acquired, and in so doing increasing their conquered territory - then repeating the purpose until such a time as their end objectives have been met.
Then let us consider what a garrison is … it is a military unit, encamped within a strategic location, to protect that location that has been conquered from all adversarial combatants.
It is therefore a part of the original purpose of an invader unit, and it is part of the original army's total strength and as such it cannot be considered a separate entity
Thus yes, I can put forward the assumption that as per …. “in my opinion” … yes, I can call for trial of refusal upon this point as a garrison unit as it is part of the original whole of the army … therefore it is subject to the same Laws and Restrictions when bidding for an end objective …..
Whereas, If I am reading your post correctly … you are arguing that a garrison unit and an invading unit are two separate entities … and ….
Because it is not Cannon, ie. it is not written down anywhere …. therefore it cannot be true …..
Is that correct? Please correct me if I am wrong …
So therefore how does a debate move forward based upon this one and only statement alone?
Thus the only question that remains is if the Clans would accept the Trial of Refusal? - and if it was worded the same way as per the Wolcott Campaign or the same as when Focht issued his challenge on behalf of Comstar ... then in all likelihood, yes the challenge would be accepted.
As for putting forward a note of Non-Cannon – Comprehension again will show if it is Cannon or Non Cannon a note is not required if I add the phrase “ in my opinion”.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/14/18 01:00 AM
66.74.61.223
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Wolf Clan Sourcebook, #1842. Page 37 under the section of fourth wave.
The ilKhan did attempt to slow Clan Wolf by refusing to allow them to use the Provisional Garrison Clusters (PGCs) for occupation duties being handled by the frontline troops. He claimed that PGCs had not been part of the initial invasion bid. This was true enough, but these essentially administrative units are not traditionally considered part of a bid. He was challenged by the Wolf khans, who pointed out that the ilKhan had already authorized they use of PGCs for his own Smoke Jaguars.
Was this forgotten already?
Or was this made up and not in the book and page claimed?
I will allow the fact later printings may have changed this writing, as a few other books have had some information changed.
And there are more then a few times that the bid was altered when the attacker figured out they couldn't win with the forces bid. They lose face and more.
Using the PGC's for offense for crusader clans is almost as bad as attacking without bidding. The PGCs are solhama units in their eyes. Using them means you admit you are inferior. For using the face and honor to defend attacking the ship after turtle bay, it seems lacking in this context.
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Requiem
07/14/18 02:08 AM
58.175.193.140
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Question: In the military how can a unit that has been assigned weapons such as ‘Mechs be considered to be “essentially administrative units”?
As I was under the opinion that administrative units consisted of logistics, cooking, medical etc – i.e. all the non-combat support roles within the military.
So as these units have been issued with ‘Mechs and are still classified as warriors and do not perform non-combat roles (that of the medical caste or the worker caste etc) they cannot be considered to be ‘administrative units’ they can only be considered to be a line combat unit … and as such subject to the laws of the bidding process and again subject to the right of refusal.
This is clearly a lie on the part of the ilKhan of Clan Wolf as administration refers to non-combatants. Whereas a Solhama unit is still capable of military action using weapons of war, it does not matter if they are inferior, they are still classified as warriors, are they not?, and as such they are still bound by the rules of the bidding process and the Right of Refusal.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
07/14/18 02:40 AM
58.175.193.140
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Therefore I can now expand upon my original example of bidding from ….
Second, the bidding itself …. In a nut shell it says … form all the forces that are at my disposal I will only utilize “this much” of my available forces to achieve my end goal …. to reach Terra …. and thus become the IL-Clan …
To that of …
Second, the bidding itself … in a nut shell it says … from all the forces “and all the warriors*” that are at my disposal I will only utilize “this much” of my available forces and warriors* to achieve my end goal … to reach Terra … and thus become the ilClan ….
Note: * ----- All my warriors = All of those in front line units + All of those in Solhama units
And, how can the following be considered…. That an administration unit = A Solhama unit ?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/14/18 12:16 PM
66.74.61.223
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The body guards of elected officials have weapons assigned to them, yet they are not really considered soldiers. Granted, they tend to come from military back grounds. If they were soldiers, they would not be allowed into areas were meetings are going on.
U.N Peacekeepers are assigned weapons and are generally considered administrational units.
It Battle Tech, police forces are issued mechs and other weapons, yet are considered administrative units more then soldiers.
Though I do differ in the cooks, medical and such no being administrative, but other types of support branches. And they work outside military roles as well.
The definition of a line unit for the clans is an issue here. Front line, ie combat units, are omnis with bloodnamed warriors assigned to actually go into fights, not someone sitting around hoping someone attacks so they can gain some glory, as the PGCs are.
Anyone assigned or having weapons can be used in combat, even if they are not properly trained in the military to use them. The cooks in the military are still soldiers trained and will be sent into combat as needed. Same with medics and everyone else. Even the techs can and will be used when needed in combat, so with the definition given, there are no 'administrative' units in the military. Not even the general's secretary sitting in his office in the capital.
I guess another example of armed administrative units would be the MPs on base and off. They do fight when needed, but their main jobs is to keep security and arrest those breaking the law.
If the IS had known about refusals earlier, they could have challenged the clans alot sooner, and possibly avoided losing so much territory in the invasions. Once they did learn, operation Serpent and the destruction of the Smoke Jaguars happened.
Even challenging the clans to refusals on worlds already lost would/should have happened. Essentially, the clans ambushed the IS. Struck without much warning, using the fact the IS would envelope them with sheer numbers as why they did not issue any sort of general batchall when they first appeared.
This would be more of a point of discrediting their honor.
One last thing for now. Soldiers get court martialed and still remain in the military. They continue their jobs, but are not considered for promotions until they have served the penalty time they were served. This also goes to police that are on administrative leave after a verdict of any possible wrong doing has been judged. They are 'disgraced' yet serving as administration personnel.
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Requiem
07/14/18 06:40 PM
58.175.193.140
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Sorry, I disagree
P18. The Clans Warriors of Kerensky Book # 1709
When discussing Operation Revival during the pre-invasion phase ….”The bidding and the Trials to determine the participants were fierce….”
And in the Glossary section … P116.
Batchall … the attacking …. Unit bid among themselves to determine who will participate….
Then we also have evidence of the bidding process …. P.17- 18 Invading Clans Book # 1645
“The bidding for the right to serve as one of the three remaining invading Clans began in late 3048. The bidding process lasted for two full days and was conducted in three rounds. Those Clans who remained in the final round would participate in combat trials that would determine the final three invading Clans. Each Clan made a preliminary bid, then retired to study the other Clans’ opening bids. On the second day, the Clans launched into a fierce bidding war, each Clan mercilessly cutting away their excess troops in order to move to the final round. Clan Ghost Bear made an initial bid of twelve full OmniMech Galaxies with appropriate Elemental and Aerospace support”.
“Clan Smoke Jaguar emerged first from the bidding process by slashing their initial eleven-Galaxy bid to three …”
Therefore as stated before limits were placed upon the number of ‘Mechs and warriors from the warrior caste that were allowed to participate ….. the limited numbers that were allowed to enter into the Inner Sphere and be a part of Operation Revival ….
Remember the Clans are a stratified society based upon the Caste system ….
In the Inner Sphere there may be warriors that could be considered to be part of an administration unit. But we are not discussing the Inner Sphere we are discussing the Clans …
An administration unit implies that it is non-warrior caste by its name alone … P59. The Clans Warriors of Kerensky Book # 1709 …..”…a civilian administration carries out the day-to-day operations that allow the Clan to function….”
Thus by saying that these warriors were part of an administration unit is blatant lie … they, the ilKhans of each Clan, agreed to then numbers that were allowed into the Inner Sphere during the bidding process … and when faced with a 15 year garrison they broke their original bids and brought in additional forces …. And the lie they used were these warriors were not warriors they were administration.
But how can a warrior be not a warrior they are part of the Warrior Caste they are not part of a non-warrior Caste …. This is a blatant lie and in my opinion if the inner sphere had called them out, as was their right, then there should have been a Right of Refusal … allowing the Inner Sphere as the defender to dispute the change in numbers of their initial bid to that of an increased amount.
Therefore, there should have been a second Tukayyid - but this time it should have been SLDF Vs. the Clans and with the outcome the number of Clan forces allowable into the Inner Sphere
So in for a penny in for a pound, if the game demanded of the Inner Sphere to adopt Clan Battle tactics then they should have been allowed to dispute this very underhanded increase in forces …. Their, Clan Smoke Jaguar for example, bid was for three Galaxies only within the Inner Sphere any increase in this number, no matter how you classify them (Warriors are Warriors and the ‘Mechs they have are weapon systems) , is an increase upon their initial Bid. They therefore HAVE broken their bid and the Inner Sphere has the right to call them out on this point.
So why was the Inner Sphere Hamstrung yet again in favour of the Clans? Was this done on purpose or was this just a mistake?
We can say this is yet another plot hole in the Clan’s Invasion of the Inner Sphere and it should be noted for when a rewrite will be demanded – as there are too many mistakes – too many times the Inner Sphere is hamstrung in favour of the Clans. Getting it right requires a re-write as nothing else will satisfy …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/15/18 12:24 AM
66.74.61.223
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The administrative units I was talking about are real life units. The example was trying to show that there are armed units that exist even today that are administrative in purpose. It is not anything new, nor would be changed in the future.
The clan bids do not include garrison units and never would. They are needed to defend what is taken, weither in the IS or on the clans home worlds.
If that was the case in the invasion bid, then none of the invading clans except clan Wolf could possibly hold to that bid. And that would have been brought forth before the bidding for the rights even started.
The entire clan council knew they did not have enough forces in the clans to garrison every world in the IS. So by using this excuse, the entire invasion was a farce.
And as the book states, the clans consider PGCs as administrative units. In the alt, that is changed to fit the mindset needed. Suggesting it as a basis for nullifying the entire invasion and defending it as necessary as fact for pushing forward the alt history suggests the entire canon line is false.
If you really want to get into the use of non warrior forces, the use of commando units would violate this. They are cowards striking from the shadows, not someone that fights with honor. The use and defense of this tactic destroys all the arguments for the clans not having to bid garrison units into the attacking forces.
As the honorable DC uses them, doesn't that impinge upon their honor?
Or does that not work?
Read the alt suggestion of having the clans not invade the IS. Their little civil war starts and prevents the whole issue. That stops all the complaints of hamstringing the IS.
As for a rewrite being needed as nothing else will satisfy. Start with fixing the holes in the rules, then work thru the Star League. Once that is done, then the outcome of the 3025 era on is completely different. The FC should never have come about according to the concept of being first lord in all the leaders minds. The Steiners and Davions would never let the other even contemplate on being first lord according to what has been said in past threads. Start there.
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Requiem
07/15/18 02:45 AM
58.175.193.140
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QUOTE: “The clan bids do not include garrison units and never would. They are needed to defend what is taken, whether in the IS or on the clans home worlds”.
You are missing my point …garrison units are included in the bidding process … they are not a separate thing that can be brought in and out on a whim …. Evidence.. why did the Smoke Jaguar’s Khan get so upset at Clan Wolf’s khan when they introduced their PGS …. It’s outside the norm …. If it was the norm they wouldn’t have even disused it.
QUOTE: If that was the case in the invasion bid, then none of the invading clans except clan Wolf could possibly hold to that bid.
Pg. 18 The Clans Warriors of Kerensky # 1709 … “The invasion was expected to last until late 3053, divided into fifteen waves of ten weeks each (eight weeks of combat operations and two weeks of R&R)”
Canon evidence … The invasion was for ALL their forces (garrison + invasion force) to complete their objective to reach Terra and become the ilClan within 3-4 years only (a quick war – no need for garrisons) …you must remember the Clans opinion of Inner Sphere Warriors was so low they didn’t even contemplate that a 15 year pause could even occur … their opinion was so low they didn’t even contemplate a garrison force would be required (so the invasion wasn’t a farce it was just the clan’s hubris in misunderstanding the Inner Sphere’s Military – Only Clan Wolf had an understanding – all the others let pride and vanity blind them to the true military situation) … and this does not let them off the hook they bid for an amount and they cannot change it …they either consolidate their forces or leave admitting defeat … but in this case they broke their bid and brought in additional forces … thus the Inner Sphere has every right to call for a Right of Refusal.
Comprehension reading between the lines - Must I repeat myself again an administrative unit within clan terms is that of the non-combatant – a warrior is a warrior whether from a front line or Solhama unit – this is the Clan Khans lying in an attempt to maintain their prestige – for if they didn’t they would have been forced to relinquish captured territory back to that of the Inner Sphere – and their hubris, vanity and pride could never allow them to so. Thus they lied and broke their bid in an attempt to maintain their vanity … and no one said a word because to do so was to discuss a taboo subject … it just became self-censorship to preserve their vanity and pride.
How can you say Commandoes are non-warrior?
They may not utilize clan tactics but they are a-part of Clan history … were they no used in the Amaris campaign? And were not some of their blood names descended from people who-where once commandoes themselves? Just because they do not utilize these tactics doesn’t mean they cannot understand and appreciate them for what they are…
So again due to Clans pride, vanity and hubris they self-censored their breaking of the Initial bid in an effort to maintain their picture of self-superiority and everyone within the Clans just went along with “the program” even though in the depths of their hearts they knew they had broken the Bid and as such had shamed themselves in the process of doing so …. But no one would ever know as we all know the Clans are very good at re-writing history to fit their own perception as to what really happened and no one would even contemplate to bring up the truth as Clan truth died with the Wolverines.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/15/18 03:12 AM
66.74.61.223
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Where does it say garrison forces are part of the bid?
Not understanding the story line, I can see why the idea of the Smoke Jaguars getting upset with the wolves as the Jaguars were losing their race to Terra was happening. The fact they were forced to bring in their PGC's was a slap in their faces, as it meant the Jaguars were not the top dogs in the invasion, like they envisioned.
Canon evidence … The invasion was for ALL their forces (garrison + invasion force) to complete their objective to reach Terra and become the ilClan within 3-4 years only (a quick war – no need for garrisons)
This statement is a major contradiction of itself. No need for garrison forces, yet they were part of the bid?
Again. Where does it say the garrison forces are to be part of the bid? Not imagined or reading between the lines. Those say the garrisons are not part of the bid. The bid is attacking units only. Clan defense is more of a counter attack then not. Or reading between the lines suggests.
Where does it say the clans can not change a bid? They lose face as well as other items when doing so, but they have done so in the past. Victory verse what it costs is the big thing that stops this. They are allowed to bring down the forces equal to the last bid before the winning bid, but it costs them. It gets far worse if they break it entirely, but that has happened in the past.
Comprehension reading between the lines. So far, I have only seen one opinion to the clans cheating by bringing in garrison forces, it may be time to reread the entire history of the clans. The entire structure has been misinterpreted and misrepresented in the alt line. Arguing alt history, and suggesting it is fact does not work.
There is no where in any of the books I have seen, that has said clan administrative units are non combatants. Most suggest the second in command deals with alot of the crap the person in command doesn't want to deal with. The khans deal with alot of it themselves. They do have staff to deal with things, but the khans and SaKhans are very much part of this process. Saying they aren't is not understanding their ways.
A sneak thief planting bombs and stealing things in the dark of the night is a warrior?
They are glorified spies in the eyes of real warriors. They do things no real warrior would even contemplate. The cowards in the IS love to use them, as it means they don't have to actually fight.
Interesting about the truth and history. You forgot the main thing about that. The victors write history. The losers die. As for clan truth dieing with the Wolverines? Where did you get this information from? What source?
They died using nukes against the most holy of warrior grounds. The genetic repository. The most disgusting and vile thing that could be done to the clans. They may have realized the clan leaders were corrupt and started to form their own worshipping, but other then that, what truth?
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Requiem
07/15/18 06:47 AM
58.175.193.140
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Where does it say garrison forces aren’t part of the bid?
Except the logic I have already discussed …
Where does it say that they can change their bid?
Except for the Clan’s own rules ….
Arguing misinterpretation and misrepresentation …. ?
A Right of Refusal as to allowing additional Clan forces into the Inner Sphere other than that of the initial Bid is a justifiable strategy ….
As for the definition of a Military administration … as per the Wikipedia ….
Military administration identifies both the techniques and systems used by military departments, agencies, and Armed Services involved in the management of the armed forces. It describes the processes that take place within military organisations outside combat, particularly in managing military personnel, their training, and services they are provided with as part of their military service. In many ways military administration serves the same role as public administration in the civil society, and is often sited as a source of bureaucracy in the government as a whole. Given the wide area of application, military administration is often qualified by specific areas of application within the military, such as logistics administration, administration of doctrine development or military reform administration.
So how do you get a ‘Mech Company from this definition? You don’t ……
Therefore yes we can say that the Khans are lying ….
A commando is not sneak thief …. They are the most highly trained infantry in existence with a military history second to none ….
When I look at the Clans I look at them from a theoretical perspective and being dispassionate allows me to see quite clearly their short-comings …. when reading about the Clans it is quite clear, in my opinion, that the last honourable and truthful Clan people were that of the Wolverines.
As for the use of a nuclear weapon upon a genetics repository … this is a political and social statement as to how far the Clans have fallen from their noble origins within the original SLDF to something worse than that of Amaris ….. have they not abandoned everything the Kerensky’s wanted of them?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/15/18 12:12 PM
66.74.61.223
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Step back a step and realize the right of refusal for the entire invasion is needed, not the fact they used their own ways of doing things to bring in additional forces.
Logic dictates you need forces to defend what you take. And to add to this, they may not have needed the forces to defends against the IS in their minds, they would still need them to defend against other clans and trials of possession. Additionally, needing more for bids of border worlds along their invasion corridors.
Logic has stated with some examples that the garrison units are sent in, not being part of the bid. If you actually read how bidding is done, they have alot of forces in orbit ready to invade several worlds. Those forces just don't leave the system when the bid is finalized. And if they fail, without a counter bid to avoid invading again, they try again later. Using a new bid and new forces.
So those people running the military in the front lines, as the clans do, can not be armed? Can not participate in combat, which is the sole thing that makes the warriors 'superior' over the other castes? The loremasters, being in charge of the history of the clans don't fight? The khans, star colonels, star captains and such don't lead their troops in combat? A few of them let others worry about tactics and supplies while they go off to fight, but in the end, it is their jobs to make sure the operations to run the clans is done.
A commandos job is getting in and out of a base without fighting. Firefights do occur, but that is not their primary job. They are more of assassins for head hunting, or destroying things outside of a real combat.
I do agree they are some of the best trained units in the real world, but this is a game where combat is wanted. Few want to play someone whos sole goal is to get into a base, kidnap someone, and get out without shooting something up.
Dispassionate? The rabid use of the 'ducks' and other things suggests otherwise. The statement in another thread said understanding them was difficult as they did not follow anything in the world today. Trying to demonize them to support the ideas wanted will not keep others from saying the view is wrong according to the canon version. The canon version is there to promote the writers making money, and keeping the game moving. The need for the FC to win at all costs is not dispassionate.
As said before, there are a lot of holes in the game. Forgotten tech. Rule changes that changed the game without being addressed. Even the sudden appearance of things that were not even hinted at, but screwed up the game. XL engines in hover craft was not really thought out well. 400 engines being max when they came out with the XLs is another. Super heavy units yet another, especially hover craft. Those are but a few. Construction numbers is another major hole. The destruction of units far out exceeds the numbers made, yet units are just pulled out of the air. But that is another conversation.
First off, Nicholas did not follow his fathers footsteps when he took over command from Alexander. They had two very different approaches to how to run things. The clans followed Nicholas's ideas and took them even further. So they did not abandon his concepts for them.
The idea of using nukes as a political and social statement is very disturbing. That is the very epitomy of removing freedoms from the population. It encourages those in power, and those with them, to dictate to all how they need to think and follow orders. Using them makes things far worse, as it promotes the likely hood of them being the preferred way to do any discussion.
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Requiem
07/15/18 07:30 PM
58.175.193.140
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When I take a step back I notice two things happening in the Cannon realm post Tukayyid ….
First, the Clans are rearming, fortifying their positions for war again in 15 years;
However, let us look at the Forces of the Inner Sphere – no new units – only new ‘Mechs and warships.
Ask yourself does this seem realistic to you?
So If the Inner Sphere are not allowed new units why should the Clans?
Is this not hamstringing the Inner Sphere one again? On purpose or by mistake?
My hypothesis regarding the Right of Refusal is an accurate and is an exciting sub-plot that could be considered ….In my opinion, It can be said that the clans acted in a political manner, rather than a military manner when it came to deciding the units for the Invasion of the Inner Sphere. Therefore now that there is a 15 year truce they are paying for their own hubris and political Machiavellianism.
So they lie as to the nature of their forces – say they are administrative – where in fact they are line units, so that they can adequately garrison their conquered worlds (and effectively covering up their previous political mistakes).
But this is noticed by the Inner Sphere, who challenge them on this point via a Right of Refusal – again this now brings it back to the political table and to the attention of all the Clans and all their warriors – they were defeated by the Inner Sphere ComGuard (but they could be said to be the closest thing to an Inner Sphere SLDF Unit – thus the shame when loosing is not that palpable) – now challenged by the Inner Sphere Barbarians, politically can you turn it down as saying no would be seen by the Home Clans as an act of a coward?.
Now, doesn’t this make for an interesting sub plot? Can the Inner sphere even win at this stage? Yes /no – they both make for an interesting narrative before that of the Grand Refusal within Clan Space.
As for forces in orbit – are these forces not part of the master bid – whereas those sent down to the world represent forces of a sub bid for an individual world? The totality of the forces though doesn’t change?
So again logic does not come into the master bid – they thought the war would be over in 3 years max – they did not even contemplate that a garrison force would be required only an invading force would be required – they then bid based upon a political not military expectation – they bid to defeat the Home Clans from taking part – as the prize was too great that of becoming the ilClan (therefore it could be argued that greed blinded them) – this was the drive in deciding which forces would be allowed into the Inner Sphere. This makes absolute sense when you look at it.
Your idea of what a commando is capable of is lacking – suggest you read SAS etc history – they do the job everyone else thinks is impossible – in their early missions they created their own gun vehicles – crossed the African Desert – Found Rommal’s Air Bases – and promptly destroyed them – fast machine guns and explosives – in-out.
Suggest you read of their exploits on D-Day (especially their Chaplin who was driving one of the Gun jeeps on the day!)
Thatches use of the SAS – embassy captured by terrorists in London – she sent them in.
Today – anti-terrorist and anti-cartel forces
Tomorrow – who knows what they will be asked to do – but they will do it because they are the elite!
Quantifying historical facts requires being dispassionate – two words – Moral and Compass – have you ever considered the moral compass of the Clans? Can they even be said to have one?
PG 70 The Clans Warriors of Kerensky # 1709
When discussing Clan Blood Spirit ….“They believe that the other Clans have abandoned the way set down by Nicholas Kerensky, little caring that THEY TOO are guilty of abandoning Kerensky’s vision”.
As we have discussed previously Nicholas’ dream for the Clans is a very long way away from the reality that we find today.”
This is a theme that is discussed throughout many of the Cannon books there was supposed to be political and social equality between the castes – but the warrior’s never allowed this – suggest you read a book entitled ‘Animal Farm’.
And, Yes the idea of using nukes is very abhorrent … but in this case it was the only way to wake the Clans up as to the horror they were about to unleash upon humanity …. Scientists at Trinity creating the atomic bomb comes to mind ….. this is just another Frankenstein scientific experiment that has produced another nightmare Jeanie – that of eugenics - that should have been stuffed back into the bottle!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/15/18 10:35 PM
66.74.61.223
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All forces in orbit were part of the initial bid. Otherwise, they would not be there. Cutting down forces to reduce waste, and get a more glorious victory proceeds from there.
Refusing reinforcements and not refusing the invasion is much like trying to fix the barn door after the horses get out. Once learned, the trial of refusal should go against the invasion itself. The reinforcements doesn't stop the invasion.
Not sure why that isn't sinking in.
Refer to samurai honor with the commandos. A samurai does not skulk in shadows to complete a mission honorably. That is for honorless thieves. Ambushing is a valid tactic, but not run away after it is sprung.
But then warriors only use mechs and possibly elemental armor in the game.
How did the Wolverines use of nukes wake up the clans to the horrors they were about to unleash on humanity?
Except for orbital bombardments, which the IS does quite often even in the future, ie the civil war, the clans did not do more then the houses did after an invasion. They had their laws, and they had their punishments. Harsh, but no more then the DC or CC for that fact. Even cases in the FC were like that.
Eugenics is not the evil it is being made out to be. If it was, then cloning is far worse as well as people picking features for their children. Genetic matching, gene splicing, and a few others comes to mind. It isn't quite the same things, as the clan eugenics do this before incubation, not afterwards. Making the best possible warrior they can.
Not knowing who your parents are, helps a soldier stay focused, as they don't know who is or isn't their parents. Wether those orders are right or not doesn't matter. Those giving them are the ones to be judged if they are right or wrong. Soldiers obey.
Personally, I think they all need to think for themselves, but in a military run society, doing your job is all there is. The rest is just filler.
And to answer the abandoning the vision, all clans think only they follow the vision set out. To think otherwise, would be admitting you are not the best.
We are the greatest, or we are absorbed into another nation/faction.
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Requiem
07/16/18 01:46 AM
58.175.193.140
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Refusing Reinforcements requires a trial against those Clans in the Inner Sphere.
Refusing the Invasion requires a trial against all of the Clans, including those on the Clan’s Home Worlds.
The Inner Sphere can only do so much at one time – or why was Tukayyid even fought? Could we not have just skipped to a Trial of Refusal to stop the invasion for good then?
So it appears the Inner Sphere forces must have a proximity to that of the Clan forces that they wish to battle with and with a specific aim in mind.
Again your understanding of Samurai is lacking …. Samurai are not all honourable …. But the DCMS does have commando units and that of the DEST units.
As for the Walverines …. They believed at the time that, first only a major jolt to system could change public perception and Second (and more importantly) that the eugenics program was evil …. Thus by using the nuke they were rejecting everything the Clans had become, in an attempt to show they should return to their SLDF roots … however the Clans were too Cowered by Nicholas to act …. Thus in capitulating to him they sold their noble birth-right (the SLDF) to that of something dark and evil (The Clans)
The Clans and Rose coloured glasses? Eugenics are that evil when they divide humanity into the powerful who rule and the powerless (who serve in an almost slave like existence).
Your view upon an automaton soldiers is …. Interesting,
True strength comes not from the physical but the mental – might does not make right – as when you advocate might is right then this becomes the argument of the bully on the school yard.
Or .... a warrior does not need a mind, just a good strong body ......... quote from Megatron, Deceptacon.
True strength comes from fighting for those you love and that which you care for …. Diminish this and you will end up with automatons who only care about winning at any cost – the cost in people’s lives are immaterial to that of winning …. Keep that up and the pyres of their victims will grow exponentially ... until they are stopped by force!
Having been in the infantry myself I can tell you obeying everything is not correct .. you must think for yourself at times …. When you come across an illegal order you must in all conscious refuse that order …. or you will quickly find yourself at a war crimes trial.
A point that is hammered into you during basic …
I know they don’t have these war crimes courts in the Battletech universe …. But ethics and a code of morality still do exist!
As for the vision …. What I was attempting to remind you about was Nicholas’ vision for the Clans – yes he wanted strong warriors where damage to civilians was minimised – BUT – he also wanted political and social equality between all the Castes, the warriors were not meant to rule on their own, they were meant to work together as one harmonious society – all castes equal – each caste having equal political power – each caste serving the other – the sum of the parts being greater than the whole.
However, what you ended up with is a dystopian society where warriors rule and everyone else is subservient to the whims of the warriors.
How goes the thoughts on a Clan's Moral Compass?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/16/18 03:06 PM
66.74.61.223
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Tukayyid was fought to stop the clans from possessing Terra. The fact the rest of the IS benefitted from it was a side note.
Thinking it was to give the IS breathing room suggests a flaw in logic here. Comstar wanted the chaos and breaking down of the IS and clans. They wanted to take over, and with solidifying the IS as making the Star League was working towards, would have destroyed that goal.
A side note here. Comstar knew about the trials and their rules. The rest of the IS was still in the dark about most of it. So issuing one was not possible at that time.
The Wolverines decided that the IS ways of ruling where the best, and fell into the pattern of the corruption that caused the Leagues down fall. The clans way of doing thing mirrored it, but went along military lines, not political. The did what all will do when they want power, but lack the ability to get it without threats. Resorted to nukes. They could not fight the trials to show that is wrong, and could not show it was being perverted. A few other clans seemed to share this idea, like the Nova Cats. Yet they did nothing to support the movement to stop the slide.
Military rule is supposed to keep honor and discipline to counter the corruption that eventually destroys all forms of government. Those corrupt people get into power and destroy the safeguards.
Eugenics are that evil when they divide humanity into the powerful who rule and the powerless (who serve in an almost slave like existence).
Interesting statement, as that can be said about using economics. Those that rule make it so those that can't even compete become slaves as they either work for those in power, or die starving becoming criminals just for existing in the society the rich own.
The soldier would be the warriors needed to do what must be done. Having them lead would be a problem, as they will be less compassionate in orders. Those issuing the orders are the problem.
And no. I do not think they should be automatons. They need to think as well, but their lies the second part of the problem. Who teaches them what. That can be said with normal soldier now. Hell anyone can be told falsehoods and made to believe them.
Condemning the system because it got corrupt is normal. But the issue is, all systems become corrupt in time. Someone wanted power, and got into a position to make it happen. The military system isn't all that bad, but how people in power use it is.
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Requiem
07/16/18 07:43 PM
58.175.193.140
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QUOTE: Tukayyid was fought to stop the clans from possessing Terra. The fact the rest of the IS benefitted from it was a side note. Thinking it was to give the IS breathing room suggests a flaw in logic here.
1. Who issued the challenge?– Anastasius Focht
2. And who was Anastasius Focht? – Frederick Steiner
3. And who was he bidding against? – ilkhan Ulric Kerensky
4. And which political group did he belong to? - Warden
5. If the battle was a proxy war over Terra – a battle for the right of possession - then why was it only for short period of time, 15 years? - The bidding started at permanent then counted with 1 year and we ended up with 15 years .
6. Can’t you see both parties, Anastasius and Focht, knew the possible outcome from the start and both allowed it to happen in order to save the Inner Sphere from the Clans ie. give it time to rebuild, rearm and refight.
7. Politics – The wolves never wanted this invasion - thus he sabotaged it!
8. Politics – Anastasius wanted to save the Inner Sphere – and by asking for time –he got it
9. Ask why was the reward for victory time in years? ownership but for limited time only?
As for understanding trials / clan rules – remind me when did Wolfs Dragoons explain these to the Leaders of the Inner Sphere – and how quick would this information have taken to be disseminated to all their Military Units? (remember ComStar cannot look like they are assisting the Clans – political backlash!)
QUOTE: The Wolverines decided that the IS ways of ruling where the best, and fell into the pattern of the corruption that caused the Leagues down fall.
Not at all, remember what Nicholas’ forces are up to – by any means necessary – the mass executions / purges of civilians etc – The Wolverines compared him to his father, Alexander, and believed they had another Amaris. Thus the acted to separate themselves from this ….. “Amaris”.
Nicholas believing his political power base was faltering used this rebellion to destroy the Wolverines …. And in so doing regain and increase his political power over all the Clans …. Ie. his rulership as ilKhan (acting like a petty dictator).
The big picture – Nicholas was acting the tyrant – he was fearing his power base was slipping – Wolverine declaring independence – what is the symbol of the Tyrants power – a genetic lab. – what method would destroy this tyrants symbol utterly sending a message of freedom to all the Clans – a Nuke – The Tyrants power base is restored along with the destruction of Clan Wolverine
It is more fun to read behind the lines.
WHAT IF – What if Clan Wolverine didn’t destroy the lab with a nuke – What if Nicholas was up to his old “by any means necessary’ actions again, in that he needed an ‘enemy of the people’ so that he could re-establish is power base and control over the remaining clans as ilKhan – thus what if he had used the nuke and framed Clan Wolverine.! When looking at if from this perspective it all fits –
Nicholas in an attempt to retain his power over all the Clans as ilKhan used the Wolverine Crisis … and the nuclear attack …. To justify his call for a Trial of annihilation ….he increased his control as ilKhan …. This is what an “Amaris” would do to retain his control and power …..
This puts a whole new spin on the origins of the Clans ……
The remainder is an interesting read, however discussing politics in a non Battletech framework is not allowed. Thus I believe I cannot reply.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/16/18 10:47 PM
66.74.61.223
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I don't know for sure, but I am under the assumption the time limit was to give comstar more time to find a way to stop the clans.
Not knowing the battle was for terra, shows a huge hole in understanding the entire set up.
It was done to prevent Terra from being hit like it was during the Amaris civil war. Though canon has WOB taking it, so it was still out of comstars hands.
Actually read what is written in the books, not put in things that aren't there. The clans would never agree to a permanent stop for Terra. Focht knew this, as he studied the clans and their ways. Keeping comstars base out of the clans hands was the only reason the first circuit agreed to it. Once learning their goal, was when comstar started working against the clans.
Ulric knew the other khans were not up to the fight, but were starting to adapt.
The only way it was a foregone conclusion was because the writers needed it.
Now I don't remember seeing the clans were doing anything necessary to win. The trials were limiting things so the couldn't just bombard or nuke each other. Where this came from I would like to know.
Mass executions happened with I want to say three clans. The Falcons came after Nicholas was dead, with clan Widowmakers death resulted from the death of Nicholas.
The Wolverines started to think those in power should do what they wanted to, and got upset when the others said they had to ALL follow the same rules. They violated the agreed upon laws of the clans by allowing their people to move between the caste. This set off the events that ended up with the nuke being set off. The Snow Ravens got ahold of one of the nukes and it went down with the fighter carrying it over the Ravens repository.
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ghostrider
07/16/18 10:52 PM
66.74.61.223
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Now explain the Amaris comparison? Nicholas had control of the forces thru hereditary means. He did not usurp the power from anyone else.
Mad with power? Possible, but forming the clans was the only way he seen they could prevent the pentagon worlds form becoming the permanent mini IS. The civil war was already destroying them. With the destruction of all in the fleet looking like it would happen, most were willing to go along with the plan of the clans. Those that were in the main fight were so badly shaken, that even if they did want to resist it, they couldn't. And that is IF they wanted to resist it. 20 years of constant fighting, and getting to the point of nothing working tends to get people ready to do what ever to get peace and safety.
And if you want to argue about the formation of the clans, that actually started with Alexander. They were cutting down the size of the fleet by only allowing the best to continue to pilot the units, with having a back up for each just incase of someone dieing. Or did this slip the perfect plan?
The reading behind the lines is why the whole concept of the clans eludes understanding.
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Requiem
07/17/18 03:31 AM
58.175.193.140
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The limit was to give ComStar time …. So the Inner Sphere just got lucky? …. Would saying that Focht’s master plan was insightful and devious in its execution …. Be a little more accurate?
Reading from the books and then reading what is underneath them that is the true key to understanding … as sometimes what is not said is the thunderous ….
So again the writers put themselves in a hole and the only way out was to suspend your belief in reality.
QUOTE: ….. slip the perfect plan?
No, it just doesn’t have any relevance here.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/17/18 04:45 AM
66.74.61.223
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Honestly, the IS did get lucky. Had the clans not wanted Terra, and just started taking over the IS, then the deal for the fight would not have happened. Comstar would have sat back and enjoyed watching them all beat each other senseless.
What you see as true understanding, is what I say is putting in facts that aren't there. So far, only one person has come up with this understanding and it isn't the people I talk with.
This whole thing seems to boil down to nothing but your vision is right for the canon universe. If your group plays that way, then fine.
Ragging on how the developers did what they wanted to, is getting a bit old. Logic does not work with the game.
The books and even the clan invasion was enjoyable for me and the groups I played with. Rule issues were the problem, not what happened in the story line.
But then we role played on top of the board game. So rescuing our fallen, or even breaking out of prison when we fell happened. Taking out the clans happened as well. Superior numbers? Not really. a company verse a binary. So 2 mechs. Big number superiority there.
No relevance that Alexander started the eugenics style training?
Only the best kept riding mechs, and it was all Nicholas's idea to do this?
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Requiem
07/17/18 07:24 AM
58.175.193.140
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QUOTE: Had the clans not wanted Terra, and just started taking over the IS, then the deal for the fight would not have happened. Comstar would have sat back and enjoyed watching them all beat each other senseless.
In all likelihood everyone within the Inner Sphere would now belong to one of the Clans as all house units would have been destroyed and their ruling families executed.
Though we can now enjoy a war in which the Clans attempt to take over the Periphery States …. Won’t that be fun?
My vision is right for the Canon universe … how many times have I expressed a wish for a re-write Version 2 then to allow each person (or group) to make up their own mind as to which game setting they want to play in – Version One – Battletech Original or Version 2 – Battletech now with a more appealing, dynamic and logical history.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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