Requiem
07/27/18 07:17 PM
58.175.193.140
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A new Alt. History for Battletech
What if?
The Battletech universe is built around a paradigm of lost technology due to an almost constant war throughout the Universe since the time Amaris and the Succession Wars.
To me this is a very overly simplified statement.
Though prior to this every world was colonised to such as state as to make “said world” liveable – this would require industries established on the world – and over time these industries would grow. In addition to this every would would require its own spaceport (including a repair facility) as we now have airports – in addition every world would require its own social security infrastructure –government, administration, hospitals, schools, police (all those organisations that keep a modern society ticking along) – as well as the machinery to keep them functional (on every world).
Would not every world be looking at becoming self-reliant for their day to day necessities, with only luxury goods being imported.
And, how can you have a comprehensive workforce without a comprehensive education system?
For example, Medical Doctors, It is implausible to say you have just a couple of Universities spread throughout the Inner Sphere that teach medicine – would it not be more realistic to say ever hospital on every world has its own teaching department to ensure the minimal requirements of their world in question are adequately staffed (thus you are not reliant upon other worlds for your basic needs) even advanced obscure topics could be taught at these hospitals through pre-recorded educational supplements .
However for this “loss of technology” to be true “all worlds” would have had to experienced such a massive destruction to both their industries and their people for this decline to occur throughout all of the Inner Sphere.
Is it completely believable that every world and every teaching institution suffered a loss as to all their information as to turn back the level of societies understanding to that of a previous age?
In my opinion no, this is a little too unrealistic to suggest every world was decimated by war and every scrap of intellectual knowledge was destroyed.
Some Proprietary Knowledge contained within individual companies – yes I could see this disappearing. However, there still would remain a certain level of underlining technology that would not be eradicated, that could, with time, regain this knowledge.
And some industries such as medicines may disappear due to the destruction of their manufacturing facility (if there is only one said facility) though in all likelihood would you not have many manufacturing facilities scattered throughout the Inner Sphere? Thus requiring all of them to be destroyed for the knowledge to disappear? As would not every major industry have multiple locations spread throughout the Inner Sphere to cut down the cost and time of transport and storage, whereas if you only have one facility on one world.
Thus to destroy all knowledge upon one topic alone would require every world, and every person, with that particular knowledge to be destroyed over time.
To me this is a little bit too unrealistic considering the number of all the worlds and the education systems and libraries each world would require to ensure their work forces are adequately trained to ensure their self- sufficiency.
There may be some proprietary areas of knowledge that have been damaged but to consider a apocalyptic loss of knowledge to the entire Inner Sphere is a little too unrealistic.
Though for game to ‘commence’ this is what was decided.
Has anyone ever thought of establishing a year 3000+ universe with a Star League Era Technology base or even beyond this and going on from there?
Thus the devastation of Amaris and the Succession Wars were not as “comprehensive” as were originally described ….
Any thoughts on this topic?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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happyguy49
07/27/18 07:39 PM
196.54.41.50
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I think you are right, species-wide reduction of overall technology level is implausible; UNLESS IT WERE INTENTIONAL. I say that, because causing humanity to enter a technological dark age was ComStars entire raison d'être. ComStar's public face was 'neutral HPG provider', but secretly they worked for over two centuries to degrade humanities tech level and retard its technological recovery from war predations. Basically to make damn sure that humanity fell far enough into darkness that they would need salvation from ComStar (that's Blake's vision in a nutshell). If anything started to threaten this vision, e.g. NAIS, the creation of FedCom, any significant lostech discovery (especially stuff like the Helm core, the Tripitz, etc.) then ComStar immediately sprung into action to suppress it. Including murdering scientists.
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Requiem
07/27/18 08:15 PM
58.175.193.140
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Unrealistic and implausible also
How can one organisation have the ships, the people and the resources post Amaris to conduct a system wide purge of information upon every known and unknown world – whist at the same time destroying its underlining technological infrastructure?
Would not the every Great House’s Security Apparatus get a ‘little’ bit suspicious after the first couple of cases …
Even one person caught and the gig’s up …. Comstar is brought before the Great House Lord and what are they going to say … oh, sorry about that … it was a once off …. And then the second and third persons are caught … then what?
Would they not go out go their way to protect this information (and by extension people) upon backup data cores?
Remember the Y2K Scare – the amount of redundancies / backups / hard copy of data files etc that was required then would also be required in the future don’t you think to protect this most valuable commodity?
Again to do this system wide would take a conspiracy of how many people, tens of thousands or are we discussing millions? And you expect all of those people to keep their mouths shut as to what is going on?
again this is too overly simplistic to consider all the knowledge throughout the entire Inner Sphere could be destroyed by one organisation .... and at the same time they are able to get away with it every single time for over 200 years ....
There is also the point of education in the military - how many technical manuals would they have upon every military weapon / weapons parts etc. -would not these explain how they are put together and how do you remove these?
Also consider a tablet today - how much information can be placed upon one of these today - so how much information could be placed on one at the time of Amaris - if only one survived and was discovered .... what then?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (07/28/18 12:23 AM)
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ghostrider
07/28/18 01:16 AM
66.74.61.223
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There is a few things that may be missing from this.
One being not all tech would be found on all worlds. Some may well be just farming worlds that don't require Pulse rifles and capital weapons. And not all worlds could be self sufficient.
Some were said to have no where to grow enough food for the colony with Hesperus being one of them. Food had to be imported.
The also could be said for ores. Either the deposits that were there ran out, as one of the scenarios has it, that the defenders have go guard a mine attached to a factory to keep it safe. The ores ran out.
And governments may well have made sure the colonies were not self sufficient, as it means you can choke them if they start rebelling.
I do agree that the tech level is a bit too low. As said in other threads, any League cache found would have some advanced tech in them. There is no reason, especially with the NAIS and other universities doing the research, could not have cracked such things. With Comstars raid on the NAIS during for fourth war, we know they were active in suppressing the tech.
There are ways to destroying information, given the world is turning digital even now. A system wide virus that wipes out part of the information, or just changes it enough to cause the item to explode, such as over charging it, is possible. Even sabotage the factories. I do agree it isn't likely they could do it to all.
They have 128 Gigabyte memory cards that fit into a smart phone for sale today. I think they would have something much better by then, even if it is just flash drives and such for copies. And it doesn't have to all be in one location. Simple research facility being found should have hard copy back ups hidden. If they place was never went thru, there should be something there. I mean why go thru the trouble of taking just that out of a cache. You would take everything you could starting with mechs if you have the space. Disassembling them if you have to,.
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Requiem
07/28/18 01:50 AM
58.175.193.140
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And how many colonies were self-sufficient by the time of Amaris – the period of time from the first colony in Late 2108 early 09 to the start of the Amaris Coup in 2766 – the maximum amount time ( 658 years) in which to colonise a world then expand that colony to fully functional world / society
How developed could a world get after that period of time or even a fraction of that time?
Yes some may not be self-sufficient, but how may are self-sufficient – hundreds?
So we are back once more to semantics of this and that …
As for the tech level being a bit low …. It is ridiculously low to a point that it cannot be argued as being credible … no in all rationality the level of technology throughout the Succession Wars and up to 3025 would have been on par with that of the Star League with only minor proprietary knowledge lost that were held within one laboratory / facility at the time of an attack.
As for a system wide virus …. one of the safeguards would be to isolate the data from any outside communication so I doubt that would work.
So therefore unless you had someone on the ground who went through every-ones smart devices you can never be sure you got them all – what if they were just turned off and not connected to the system at the time.
There is no way anyone can make a blanket assumption that all the technology from all the worlds and all the people on those worlds that their unique information has been purged forever, the thought of it is laughable.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (07/28/18 01:51 AM)
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Requiem
07/28/18 04:35 AM
58.175.193.140
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As a possible re-write to the Original Battletech, in my opinion, this is the way to move forward ….
Thus if we dispense with the misconception of a system wide reduction in technology due to the almost constant warfare between the time of the Star League and the beginning of most novels (3000 - 3025) the question as to how the Inner Sphere changes needs to be addressed.
An initial overview would include ….
Star League Equipment:-
All houses will have access to all Star League era Mechs, equipment and many of their hidden R&D projects (that by now have been completed and integrated into society – not only for the militarily but also from a civilians point of view).
Military:
More of the following – a more comprehensive military with more advanced weapons / munitions etc:-
• Battlemech Units With advanced Weapons and sensory equipment;
• Power armoured Infantry;
• Armour units that work with the Power armoured Infantry;
• Aerospace Units + air-to-Air + Air-to-Ground + Anti Warshipship / Dropship Ordinance;
• Navy assets; (including Monitor ships and ships that transfer them from one system to the next);
• Space stations – early warning / command and control etc.;
• Satellites – that detect incoming Jumpships along the border then transfer this information to CIC Space Stations;
• BattleSats – guarding important worlds / space installations et al.;
* Ground based anti warship cannons;
• Hidden ship Yards – building the next generation of ships, etc;
However each Great Power must have their own Mechs (and the facilities to make them), Power armoured Infantry suits, Aerospace Fighters, Warships etc (that are not with other houses unless they acquired them through battle or capturing the world upon which they are produced)
Only Merc’s and those out in the periphery will have access to other Great Houses Machines that they picked up by ‘questionable’ means.
Worlds within the Inner Sphere
All worlds would needed to be provided with a classification rating as to their level of development ….ie.
A – A highly technological world (primarily a Capital world)
B –
C – Technologically advanced but still requires subsistence for either / or food and water
D –
E – Agriculturally based world – technological infrastructure low compared to an A / B planet
F –
G – Mining Enterprise Only (Frontier World) etc
H – Periphery based World – No Law whatsoever
I – Newly discovered virgin world (assessment in progress)
Commerce
Large Commerce enterprises – Large Jumpship Fleets etc.
Mercenaries:-
Probably down to three types ….
1. The corporate security force (anti Pirate force); and
2. The hired gun in the wild periphery.
3. The Pirate force willing to do anything for money.
The Difference between the Great houses and the Periphery
Think TV show Firefly – civilisation and the rustic wild-west or something similar to this.
ComStar – a vast communication network
Still running the HPG Net, however no longer acting as quasi-religious order. Consider them to be more of a UN between the Great Houses.
Attempting to bring an end to the Succession Wars that have flared up now and again.
Perhaps even …
a distributor of knowledge – they now set up all the government funded schools on all outlying worlds (though they must still abide by curriculum and book requirements of each great house);
Providing assistance with planetary development – administration, hospitals, basic infrastructure (power plants etc.);
Provide disaster relief;
Thus they are seen only as a humanitarian organisation ….. in reality though another great power vying for the position of First Lord.
Law
Given the atrocities committed in the previous succession Wars it is a good bet that the restrictions upon attacking commercial Jumsphips is in force; the use of WMDs has been outlawed (no nukes and no chemical / biological weapons / no orbital bombardments from warships); the current laws concerning civilians within war zones etc. and POWs are also in effect.
There are rules regarding war and how they are allowed to be prosecuted … all great Houses were forced to sign on to by ComStar.
Explorer Corps
Every great house has its own Explorer Corps and would be looking for new frontier worlds – hidden worlds within their area of control – new trade routes – new routes that will allow military units within other Great Houses Space “Undetected” and in reverse plugging holes etc.
As a beginning your thoughts? ….
For as a 'Space Opera' (as in all anime) is this not what you have always wanted in your game?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (07/28/18 04:53 AM)
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ghostrider
07/28/18 12:14 PM
66.74.61.223
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The is one very important tech item left out of this write up.
The ability to hit at ranges that aren't considered extremely short by today's standards. I wanted to say battle computers that were better, but they would/should make it easier to hit as well as better ranges.
Some suggestions to the list of tech/worlds.
A) This should include factory worlds such as Hesperus. They are the biggest but not only world that makes the high tech items required for war. They should also be producing civilian tech as well. Not all of the factory worlds would be in this category, as some will not have the access to the higher end items. The periphery nations would be an example here.
Clarification needed for H. Is that including the areas like the MoC, TC, OA, and such? As they do have law and order within their borders.
Another suggestion would be having the entire lines of streaks, ultras, lbxs, and such for weapons. The 2750 didn't have the complete lines in them, which wouldn't make sense if they were around the entire time. For the League, if you stretch it, they were just coming out with such tech, but didn't get it all done. But then that would suggest they were not as advanced as they were implied to be.
Granted, this would change alot of the history of the game, as raids would now be almost impossible, as the resources to get thru the defenses would require a full assault. And that would also mean less worlds actually changing hands, as the resources required to assault the worlds would be more limited, ie more in defense, less for attack.
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Requiem
07/28/18 06:19 PM
58.175.193.140
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Good Points,
Weapons Ranges - X3 or x4 times the distance they currently are at across the board as is?
I agree hi tech worlds like Hesperus should also be producing civilian items – such as Silicon Valley? A more updated - Personal Computers, tablets, communication / entertainment devices etc.
As for Periphery Worlds cannot we put a special double letter designation for them? H-B (Periphery but comparable to an Inner Sphere ‘B” world in technology etc)
Agreed – include streaks, ultras, lbxs,
As for satellites tracking the border – reduce their numbers due to complexity and cost – thus they are placed as an early warning device above Very important worlds only – thus allowing raids once more upon “2nd tier worlds” etc.
Raids would now be about speed, in-out, before your opposition forces mount an effective relief force and drive you out. (so as game master give your players a time limit before the games raid and if they stray too far ‘zap’ they will have to run a Naval force to get out)
I was thinking about the size of all armies – How about this as for existing year 3000 forces already written about …
‘Mechs Regiments, Amour, Infantry (RCTs etc)……. x2;
Take the number of Regiments you have 50% of these may be outfitted with Regimental Aerospace Units.
The biggest sticking point though would be Navy fleet sizes …
Going through the Wiki at approx. 2765 for each House / Periphery state and double the number they had then? So the DCA had 8 fleets – 1st fleet was 42 vessels so now 84 and so on …
Make sure each state also has a large No. of Bug-eyes, My PT and Submarine Class (say you stake the total no of warships you now have in 3000 times this by 25% and that number becomes total number of small ship Naval Craft – 1/3 to spy 1/3 to PT and 1/3 to Submarine class)
(plus if there is a huge discrepancy between one house and another they may be needed to be increased to a minimum of 75%-80% of that of their Neighbour – except for CC –which will be more like 50% of either FC / FWL though given their small size this will create a challenge in a rapid attack force if engaged.
So until clear game rules can be worked out for mass fleet action everyone will have to temper their mass actions with fleets to small engagements (for now)
Also I was going through who made what last night and I noticed that many ‘Mechs etc were made on Terra / Mars – so I decided upon a rule for when you make your House units – for every 5 Mechs made by your House you can “purchase” 1 Mech from Mars / Terra – so in a company of 12 – 2 is the maximum you can start with from Terra /Mars as Comstar is open for business when it comes to manufacturing weapons.
Do you think Comstar should have a small “hegemony of worlds” surrounding Terra – say about 10 worlds at the start of the game – payment in lieu of services rendered ie. building fleets etc.
What I was thinking about with Comstar is making them the Bankers of the Universe – thus rather than taking over with Religion dogma etc – their aim now is to repossess / purchase the Inner Sphere and become the sole owners, thus First Lord in all but name. ie. they are now the ultimate mega corp on the board.
And as such they have their own security force and Navy!
Thoughts ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (07/28/18 06:30 PM)
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Requiem
07/28/18 07:39 PM
58.175.193.140
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Just another thought, what if ComStar, now the ultimate Corporation – in addition to the worlds surrounding Terra, they also owned worlds within each of the Great Houses (transferred over the years as payment for loans etc) and Worlds within the Periphery (their explorer corp. / mining / agricultural divisions laid claims (as fist to find these worlds) and have established Corporate colonies on these worlds – protected by their security forces)
PS: ComGuard – The Security force to ComStar - are able to purchase any type of ‘Mech form any of the Great Houses as well as their own forges - when establishing your unit – that is if you want to work for ComStar that is …..
Thoughts …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/29/18 12:48 AM
66.74.61.223
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Technically, comstar was a partial banker for the IS. The mercenary star, Galentia( I believe) used them to hold payments until jobs were complete, before Outreach took over. And all house deal in C-bills and their house bills, but hate dealing with other house bills, would be a logical extension of that.
The ranges are something that I would say triple at least, but that does lead to some issues as well. Keeping a beam focused on a single point from a distance like a klick might not happen, especially at speeds. We do know ballistics and missiles should have longer ranges. Might be a way to balance them back out again, though the gauss weapons might cause more issues with this. But this would basically destroy hand to hand outside of arenas. No reason to get that close anymore.
I could see Comstar requiring a few worlds around Terra to make sure they have advanced warning for others to attack them, but not sure if the houses would go for that. And if they did, it might mean only those houses on your side borders would be worth talking with, as like the FC would not have the common border near terra to work on.
But I can also see comstar having worlds outside of that area as well, such as lack of payment from houses at times, to getting resources for what they build.
Well maybe not whole worlds, but cities or stations in orbit to do business out of.
And with comstar being a seller of good, the concept of not having the League tech available goes out the window. They have it and make it.
But that does lead to one issue. After a while, they would be so rich, they could start taking over the houses with simple things like coms bans, or reduced selling of items. This should be done with exclusive deals like only advanced ammo being purchased from comstar, and not being made. Force all to use their services.
This may also push comstars dreams of running the entire IS thru a Star League set up. So dealing with that might be needed.
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Requiem
07/29/18 02:39 AM
58.175.193.140
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With ranges you need to balance the size of your maps / size of your figurines on the these maps (as I would assume no one wants to start from scratch in making new mech’s to battle with)/ Make a Hex too big and how do you put two in at the same time – and then you have issues of who is hit with what – and again how far can your weapons reach - unfortunately you need to suspend reality in order to ensure effectiveness of the game.
As for getting close – terrain may dictate that you have no choice but get that close to do battle – otherwise what is the point of having armoured infantry?
As for Terras little Hegemony of worlds, we could assume at the end of the Amaris Coup – ComStar Annexed these worlds when it was being established and no one batted and eye at this and ever since they have remained ComStars (and as such inviolate from attack)
I think it might make it interesting if whole worlds within the Great Houses and their industries upon these worlds belonged to Comstar (making them inviolate as well – and also trade free zones for commerce and weapon acquisition) – It could make for an interesting change in pace throughout the Inner Sphere for all concerned (especially if you were a merc. Requiring a new ‘Mech etc)
I would assume though that every Great House has legal restrictions upon the amount of assets / type of assets foreign entities may own / and becoming a monopoly (restrictions that prevent stopping fair trade) -within their State, so even ComStar is restricted in some cases – though this does not overly concern them at all given their overall net worth.
With the coming of the Star League, yes I think they (ComStar) would want to be the iron claw hidden beneath the velvet glove.
I now think I might need to reduce the size of each Houses Military Warship Navy rather than 2x it may be needed to reduce to 1.25X as at the year 3000 and then increase as the years progress (?).
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/29/18 05:35 PM
66.74.61.223
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I though more of just adding hexes to the range of weapons, not messing with the size of each hex.
Though the novels have written about two friendly mechs being in the same hex, as they helped one of them up. Or maybe it was in the next hex, close enough to touch it. I don't know.
The point of having armored infantry is they would replace normal infantry for the most part. Raids in them would be much easier from halo drops to actual pick ups. Jets on the armor would allow air pickups, as the shuttle holds position as they jump into it from the ground. Also, an armored trooper is less likely to be worried about crowd control, as a normal weapon, such as a knife would not penetrate the armor. Small guns would do some damage, but probably end up killing someone else from the ricochet. And the suits sensors would find the person alot faster then eyeballs. Heat sensors would see the barrel of the gun sort of concept.
They would still be in on assaults, with sneaking up to the enemy units and surprise attacks on them. Not as easy as just waiting for the enemy to advance on your position then hitting them.
One more tech that was brought up and was forgotten. The baffling materials used in the buildings in the MAC adventure pack. I do think keeping it rare is a good thing, but since that pack, nothing has ever been done with it. Not really ecm, as once the building fires, it remains 'visible', but without advanced probes, you don't find it unless you see it with your own eyes. I think this is more of the computer recording the location of the building. Not sure how it would work with the AP that came out with league tech.
The navy is a bit touchy. It could be said they are always needed to get into a system, and any fights would result in some destroyed units. Others would say they would disengage and flee before that happens. Given the time it takes to make them, and all the wars that have happened, the numbers may well be below the initial reports. Thinking things like ores, and even the jump drives would slow them down in production.
Which would make me wonder how Comstar was building them before the 2900s. The germanium would be a very large clue on that.
A wild, but not very well thought out idea, would be comstar would have complete control over the jumpships produced in the IS. All buy from them. But that limits some ideas and issues you could use to get an adventure going.
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Requiem
07/30/18 07:20 AM
58.175.193.140
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Yes I agree infantry amour create advantages and disadvantages depending upon when and where they are deployed.
MAC building materials …. Add it to the list of equipment plot holes that was used once and forgotten about.
With Navies – given their destructive potential - I would believe they would conduct themselves like the Navies of the Wold do now – Keep to their own lane / be slightly provocative / though they do not engage each other unless a state of war has been declared, then it is all bets are off! (WWII – Navy battles throughout the world) – as if they did engage each other this would be used as a pretext for a declaration of war.
Fortunately for us, no Great House would allow Comstar the monopoly over the creation of all Jumpships (and by extension Warships and maintenance thereof) – if this was the case Comstar would have already won as without Jumpships in one form or another how could the universe even operate?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/30/18 11:21 AM
66.74.61.223
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I do think some further information about the navies not firing on each other is needed. As raids did happen, it would be likely the raiders would have warships involved if they had them. So fights would happen between them outside of declared wars. Even today, there is a few exchanged between navies of the world. Granted it normally isn't sink every last ship on either side, but there are some casualties.
And most would use the excuse of 'navigation failure' on why they were in a restricted zone.
If comstar was not the super corporation looking to sell to anyone with the funds to buy, I agree the houses would not allow comstar to build all jumpships in the IS. With making them the greedy corporation, I could see them controlling most of it. And with them building and selling jumpships, all houses could have the jumpships they want/need. Even minor ones.
The monolith is a very expensive one to own and operate, but for some, it would be a blessing to have. Only need one crew to move an regiment of mechs using unions. Having it operate on a route to major worlds only would help remove the need for 9 scouts doing the same thing. Or 3 invaders.
Warships. Well maybe the League versions, with the house versions being in nation builds.
As I said. The thought was a wild one.
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Requiem
07/30/18 06:34 PM
58.175.193.140
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SOP would be that, Naval vessels do not engage each other unless they have been fired upon first.
As for raids, this is why you have the SEALS? Small / highly equipped – in /out very fast to achieve an objective …. As for warship …. Either a submarine class (due to its camouflaged profile) or a blockade runner (due to its extreme speed)?
As for engagements today … a shot across the bow to heave too ….hunting pirates / brigands
But when was the last warship engagement – Bay of Tonkin (Vietnam) / Fork lands (but that was a War)?
Even today Navies contain transports (for marine units inc. armour etc); supply (fuel / food /everything to keep them afloat) and tender ships (fix those that need fixing) – thus they will have them in Inner Sphere Navies.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/31/18 12:41 AM
66.74.61.223
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Actually, North and South Korea had an engagement that sunk a ship within the last 5 years, maybe less.
I want to see a sub used to bring in a raid from another star system. Then see it get back out.
The game raids tends to deal with mechs being dropped on worlds, then picked back up to get out. I don't see that ending as the preferred raids for the IS.
If it does, then your armored infantry becomes the main focus of battle. Easier to get a shuttle in, halo drop, pick up and sneak back out.
More then a few raids have dropships and fighters engaged with each other, I don't see why a warship on close patrol around a target world would not engage such a raid. Having a warship escort the raiders for a very important raid, like Hesperus would happen. What would happen when the two meet?
The defender allows the raiders to strike?
The attacker retreats since they were found out?
Unless there is a major difference in the warships, like a battle ship verse a frigate, they are going to fire at each other. Just no way around it.
It may be the thought of after the clans engaged for the extra warships, while I am thinking 3025 and before. Where raids were big to keep the enemy guessing.
During this time, warships complicate things.
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Requiem
07/31/18 06:30 AM
58.175.193.140
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The objective’s location, the objective itself, the defending forces, terrain, entry and exit plus others will determine the forces used upon a raid – what will get the job done as efficiently as possible – in / out?
As for when attacking Hesperus – nothing less than a fleet to fleet action would be required, don’t you think?
And if a raid was detected by a warship you can bet they (the warship) will engage with lethal force …and if lucky enough the raiders will have to ‘bug-out’ asap.
Without warships, SDS, satellites etc. raiding was a much easier occurrence … with technology comes with it the requirement of an advanced intelligence organisation to manoeuvre around advanced technology safeguards, and the use of advanced electronic countermeasures.
So yes, advanced technology and advanced warships will always complicate the game from its origins back in 3025 ….
If this is a good or bad thing it is up to each gamer and how they enjoy playing the game …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/31/18 02:03 PM
66.74.61.223
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Actually, there has been raids on Hesperus that did not have fleets with them. The Hunter tank in the 3026 TRO talks about one such raid.
Though this is another hole in the continuity of the game. Only after the clan invasion, did they start suggesting you could see the jump signature outside of a short distance from the entry point. Older scenarios and even the novels didn't have that in there.
I was thinking the raiders may well come in with a warship escort. But then this all deals with having capital weapons and such before 3050. It would have changed alot of the history. The CC may not have been in the poor condition it was during the 4th war. Hell, the 4th war may not have happened, as each system may contain the firepower to take out invading warships.
And with that, jumpships would not be off limits to destruction.
There would be more of the special forces style of strikes, as they would be needed to sneak in and take those defenses off line to avoid large losses.
So it becomes more of an infantry game at that point. Powered armor with stealth capabilities comes to mind. Even the old League sneak suits.
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Requiem
07/31/18 07:19 PM
58.175.193.140
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Raiders could come in with an escort ship, however in all probability this would mean their target is also guarded by a warship.
With warships, SDS ad advanced technology, yes, it could change history – or – battle history is just included into existing history (Alt. history?) ie. during the 4th Succession war multiple naval engagements take place in which the Capellan Navy is forced to retreat (due to high losses) this in turn causes many ground forces to retreat due to the battles taking place in space, we therefore have the same outcome.
Though I still believe Jumpships would be inviolate from attack – dropships on the other-hand, not so much – and that orbital bombardments would also be off limits.
Yes, I agree, there will be more special forces style of attacks.
Though as for a game of infantry – no, sorry but I disagree – all aspects of the military will have to be utilized (air, land, sea and space) to win the game depending upon how you are running it – there will always be a place for ‘Mechs on the battlefield as a general of our army we just need to recognise when and where to use them to achieve our overall goals.
Thus it all comes down to how we each like to play the game.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
07/31/18 11:21 PM
66.74.61.223
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Warships and SDS system WILL, not could, change history. You would need far more ships entering a system to successfully invade it.
To my knowledge dropships are always considered a target. Well maybe those still docked to a jumpship might not be.
With warships, the need for jumpships drops. They start getting relegated to commercial use. Or reinforcements. Also, the numbers in the IS would be far greater then the canon implies.
This would be based on more star craft being built, meaning jumpships would be built faster and more often. And as a side effect, the costs to buy them would come down, as they are not as sought after as they are in the canon game.
Unless you are going to use generic rolls to see if your infiltration team takes out the CIC for the SDS and other defenses, you are more then likely going to need to role play the spec ops trying to secure, or defend such facilities. Mechs are large enough targets, the SDS would target them like aerofighters. So orbital drops would be out of the question, even if you could get the pilots to stay stationary in order to drop them. Easy targets for stationary things.
And orbital bombardments being illegal? Like nukes, chemical, and biological weapons weren't, but still used. Punishment of those using it is the problem.
Now take an asteroid and move it into orbit to store supplies in it and ooops. Damn gravity took it down on top of the largest enemy base. Oh well. It wasn't large enough for the job anyways.
Once systems have enough defenses in them, roving patrols of warships on the borders would start happening. So if you could, you would have your own warships accompany the raiders to make sure that didn't happen. And either side that did not fire would have their leaders replaced immediately after the battle, if they survive. No ifs.
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Requiem
08/01/18 02:21 AM
58.175.193.140
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If you want to keep Cannon history then Warship battles are established to reflect current history – for Alt. History – just run the game and see how it all comes out.
There will always be a need for commercial jumpships within the navy, as very few warships have the capacity of dropships that some of the larger jumships are capable of transporting large quantities of dropships. Plus there is also the cost factor, that of between a commercial ship and a warship.
I would therefore assume the Commander of the Battlemech force’s dropship and his aid de camps dropships would be the ones attached to any warship – thus making the warship the flag vessel for operational requirements.
Punishment for a war crime … today we have the Hague … in the distant future of the Successor Stares, however, we would have Comstar and Terra. Being an independent, and humanitarian corporation that embodies all that the Star League Stands For, in the event a war crime is committed, it will be investigated and all parties will be held responsible within a court of enquiry within the Hauge on Terra, and those found guilty will be disciplined accordingly.
Thus Comstar fulfils one of its duties …. And if one of the Great Houses wishes to “opt Out”, their HPG’s will also “opt out” (interdiction).
In my opinion Comstar wold be more than happy to enforce the rules of war upon the Great Houses just as they also enforce the laws upon any mercenary units within the Inner Sphere.
So no, in my opinion, orbital bombardments – mass drivers etc. would all fall under the perview of a war crime … and will be investigated accordingly …. And those responsible will be punished accordingly.
For which Great House has the political clout to go against Comstar when it comes to an issue of mass murder?
The question each Great Houses defensive capabilities due to warships and SDS thus comes down to the game-master once again as we all have no idea as to production numbers (except for DCMS Battle-Sats and that is at 20 ever three months – which will add up to a very high number over time).
Though as for private ownership of a warship – don’t count on it unless you stole it – and were able to get it out of the Inner Sphere and Into the Periphery asap – otherwise it wold be hunted down and destroyed as a rogue ship within friendly space …. So, good luck in pulling that off!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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