ALT. History Operation Bulldog and beyond.

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Requiem
08/05/18 06:53 PM
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Politically, from the point of view of the Inner Sphere Great Houses, the removal of only one of the Clan Forces (Smoke Jaguar) is completely unacceptable.

Let me put this in context – WWII – The Axis Powers of Germany, Italy, Japan, then there are also countries that for political reasons who have decided to align themselves with their conquerors (Quisling, Vichy France etc.). The removal of the Jaguars, in my opinion, would be like removing Italy from the war - sending Patton to Fight Rommel in a tank Battle in Berlin – then declaring WWII over and allowing all the remaining Axis forces to remain in place.

Thus you can see the absurdity of removing just one Clan unit from the Inner Sphere.

However for game purposes, of which defies all logic, it was decided that just having 3 Great Houses and 2 minor houses was, in their opinion, was not a viable amount of combatants within the inner sphere. Thus the decision to include three additional great powers, that of the Falcons, Wolves and Bears, as well as minor Clans such as the Vipers, Cats etc.

Thus, again in my opinion, the removal of these Clan powers (with the exception of those who became part of the SLDF) from the Inner Sphere should have occurred before Operation Serpent should have been allowed to depart for the Clan Home worlds.

However this would disrupt the game designers plans for have multiple new powers with which new wars could be fought in the future.

Or would it?

What if these clans, once ejected from the Inner Sphere, rather than returning to the Clan Home Wolds established new fiefdoms within the Deep Periphery – that is each one of the Clans conquers either the Hanseatic League, Nueva Castile, Jarnfolk or established their own fiefdom.

Then you could have Operation Serpent .

And after that a new exodus into the Deep Periphery by the FC / FRR / DC to enlarge their realms establish new colonies – and as they expand outward they are engaged by the Remnants of these Clan forces. Or even these Clan forces could stage secondary Invasion Corridors and establish new enlarged fiefdoms of their own which now resembles a something like a new periphery state against either the FC or the DC.

Thus the writers get their new state powers to increase the number of combatants within the gladiatorial ring that is the Inner Sphere – The Inner Sphere obtains a new game scenario of Great Houses expanding their realms (that will result in border / world disputes when they are viable world or contain massive amounts of natural resources)

So, why create the Deep Periphery if it just becomes an area of space that is so underutilized within the game?

This scenario would have gotten the best out of both worlds – the game developers are happy and the players would have been happy.

In the future even these new FC / FRR / DC states within the Deep Periphery could have demanded their independence from their ‘overlords’ who govern them from within the Inner Sphere – thus you have Wars of Independence – and with New Stares being Created even more possibilities for new wars etc. These states also, may never join the Star League that could be still in effect within the Inner Sphere!

I can only wonder why the writers chose the path they did – expediency or being uncreative towards a limited plot development?

Thoughts?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.


Edited by Requiem (08/06/18 04:42 PM)
ghostrider
08/05/18 07:45 PM
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The analogy of WW II might be how you see it in your mind, but removing the Jaguars is more like taking out Germany. The Jaguars were a main force behind the invasion idea.
But as for the idea of what is available to the forces of the IS seems to be the problem with all of the questions and pushing the alt histories.

I will point out, you missed another 'nation' that started to show up in the IS, and that being WOB. In the alt, you don't have them becoming a power, but if you are going to slam the canon version, there is yet another combatant waiting to strike.
Also, discounting the Periphery states means you lose even more combatants, though most have not really played a huge part in the game, except to draw the SLDF away from Terra so Amaris could take over.
That could change with something like a unit like Battle Magic leaving the IS due to disgust of the leadership. They could very well change the research and making of, almost all weapons of war. With this, they could well create another minor to major house with one or more periphery states.

Now with the deep periphery, I would assume they made it as a place to expand once people got tired of the IS, or for adventures looking for new worlds or resources.
Another way to look at it is simple logic. The IS does NOT control the entire galaxy. There is more out there, and they use the scary term 'deep periphery' to invoke adventure and fear.

Now logically, why would the clans that lost their hold in the IS want to create a new fiefdom in the periphery? The have a solid base of operations in clan space, and would focus on rebuilding their war machine to even better heights.
Also, what would the other clans do if the IS had pushed all the clans out of the IS?
I would think they would react to the spin the crusaders put on the IS invading the clan home worlds, and get them all mobilized to hitting them before they got there. Operation Serpent would be in deep crap at this time, as it would be seen as an invasion of all the clans. But then that is the logic how I would see this.

Now another way to deal with the IS comes about when all houses see the Star League as a bad idea entirely. It is a political monstrousity that will never work. Only a full dominance of one house would work, and all give up the dream of running it. Now with all houses and even those minor ones all going to war, little states can survive as the bigger ones duke it out, ignoring the little ones until they do something stupid, like attack a main world. More and more worlds cede from their parent states, and band together, forming more nations. Basically making the FWL out of the entire IS and clanspace.
Requiem
08/06/18 01:33 AM
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As for my WWII comparison – I would equate the strongest military power with that of Germany, the one that “blitzkrieged” the furthest? Ie. The Wolves. And not the one who’s politically closest to that of Germany? Ie. the Jaguars. (ie. they are the WWII Italians)

As for the WOB – were they not with the FWL?, and at this stage they didn’t have a Nation Status rather just a business / military presence within the FWL?

And didn’t the WOB only become a combatant when the Star League fell apart? So as long as the Star League is still an entity the WOB cannot be considered to be a combatant.

Discounting Periphery States? …. Errrr, no, …. Have I not just made some of them a power to be reckoned with by turning them into a Clan fiefdom? How would you feel if either / or Clan Jade Falcon or Wolf was now positioned as a periphery power above your realm? – Makes for an interesting plot twist.

All they then need is industries to establish / conquer and convert into Clan manufactories to continue producing Mechs / Elementals / Aerospace Fighters etc - This could also be accomplished with the idea the Ghost Bears gave us. The introduction of a mass Exodus of multiple Clans into the deep periphery to establish their own fiefdoms that they then could use as a starting point for a second invasion corridor and the ultimate goal of becoming the il-Clan ….

Thus, in my opinion, the Deep Periphery could be considered to be the Wild, wild west of the Battletech universe – the only law is at the end of a gun ….. as it is initially being established …. Over time it would become civilized … then you would get your war of Independence …..

Whilst all this is going on, what is happening within Clan Space?

First, we have the Invasion by Operation Serpent.
Second, we have my Clan Civil War with the inheritors of Clan Wolverine’s Will (the Dark Caste) and the remaining Clans ….
At the end of which those clans that did not go through the ‘second exodus’ back into the deep periphery are destroyed – returning the Clan Home worlds to a Democracy built upon Star League principles.
Victor / Omika form their own state within and on either side of the Veil of the Protector (Caliban Nebula)
As per my previous Alt History Discussions.

QUOTE: Now another way to deal with the IS comes about when all houses see the Star League as a bad idea entirely. It is a political monstrosity that will never work. Only a full dominance of one house would work, and all give up the dream of running it.

As for the Star league, as previously discussed, is not a one person rules situation as evidenced by the woeful Cannon writing …. It would be a United Nations Security Council (without the Veto powers it currently has) … thus yes it could work if every state has an equal voice upon the council!

And even if there was a term of office, being the “Speaker of the Star League” – it would have no power whatsoever, it would be ceremonial only as giving power to just one person IS a woeful idea (as per the Cannon Writings).

Thus we are now back to the pre- Amaris days when the Inner Sphere will attempt to unite all humanity under one Star League Banner – Unification Wars Anyone with the Periphery States?

And in a war of reunification who would be the main antagonist army within the SLDF – WOB forces anyone?

Thus once conquered after a period of time and miss rule would lead to people resenting the Star League – thus we have in distant future wars of Independence

So with all that where would we be 3150 to 3200 at a minimum?

And it all has a reasonable plot line (not that the Cannonists would agree)
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.


Edited by Requiem (08/06/18 04:43 PM)
Requiem
08/06/18 02:14 AM
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And then next great war - say 3250 - you could even have a war of reformation – ie. the Star league has been corrupted from within.

Thus a couple of minor lords (From FC, DC, FWL etc) band together to overthrow the corruption and restore it to its founding principles.

This could even occur with the assistance of non-Star League Powers – The Free Deep Periphery States – Victor / Omika’s Realm – the Former Clan Realm etc.

Thus you now have a North Vs The South (American Civil War) going on ….

So will the Star league Survive its first 200 years or will it be destroyed reverting back to the old succession wars?

and in addition to all this - say 3175 - let us increase the KF Jump distance to 50 to 60 per jump with an advanced jump drive that will take at 100 years before complete transfer of all Jumpships / Warships have received this new Jump drive - In addition to this may I suggest a very rare mineral is required found only on a few worlds within the deep periphery - can we say many wars are thus fought over this valuable resource by everyone.

Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.


Edited by Requiem (08/06/18 04:21 PM)
ghostrider
08/06/18 07:21 PM
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I believe there is a flaw in the wolf blitzkrieg over the other clans.
Wolf did get the furthest but that did not have to do with the ferocity of the clan, but great planning and execution. Having supplies not only moving to the IS, but having caches already establish behind enemy lines.
Had the Jaguars or Falcons come close to doing so, they may well have taken a much larger chunk out of the stronger nations of the 3 hit.
The FRR was the weakest and being hit by two clans at the same time. They did not have the resources or reserves as the DC or FC. Not that they were a walk over, but they could not sustain the fighting like the others.

The issue I can see with the Star League is the fact few of the IS states agree upon what is needed next. The FC verses DC/FWL, and in canon CC, comes to mind when trying to get anything done with the League itself. Then add in a lord that changes from state to state in a few years. Each will undo what the others have, or promote their realms far beyond the others. As they should.
But that does not mean the other states will fund such things as battle stations built with their money on or within what is still enemy territory.
And the abuse of the position was shown with Sun-Tzu in the canon version. The lord will use league forces to force the others into a horrible position where they either break and fight the league, or lose worlds due to politics. The alt will have problems with logic though different from canon.

The range of jumpships should have been greater in the league time then current time. The supposed slide in tech should have affected them as much as normal war items.
ghostrider
08/06/18 07:30 PM
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A logic hole comes about when suggesting the clans would build a new realm in the periphery, instead of returning home.
They would start rebuilding on the clans worlds, then start expansion in the areas between them and the IS. Basically firebases to slow and store supplies they would need for the next push into the IS.
Again. Why would they bother to build in the deep periphery, when they had all the stuff they needed in clanspace?
There is no logic to try and restart there.

From the sounds of it, even beaten by the IS, the invading clans were still powerful in the clan homeworlds.
The industrial base there would not be ignored to build a new community in between the IS and them.

And it all has a reasonable plot line (not that the Cannonists would agree)
This is basically what the writers said about those that thought their outline was wrong, or needed work.
They had the 'perfect' way of proceeding, and did so. I doubt they would admit otherwise.
Reasonable plot line? The alt has potential, but there are holes in the ways of thinking and making it happen.
Alot comes down to numbers. Saying they should have done this or that, yet not really knowing what they had to work with, then suggesting what they did was absolutely wrong is running the same argument backwards.
Requiem
08/06/18 09:44 PM
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The Star League represented as a United Nations Security Council does make sense – they rarely get things done, so why would the Star League be any different.

However, what would the Star League come together to discuss …to determine the existence of a threat to the peace of the Inner Sphere as a whole and to recommend what action should be taken ie. to take military action against an aggressor by forming a SLDF Unit …. and to recommend the admission of new members …. and to discuss strategies that will maintain peace and security within the Inner Sphere …

And that’s about it ….. the Star league Council is not a governing body (President) over everything within every other members realms …….the Star League cannot interfere with the internal affairs of its member states ….. it cannot interfere with each member states military

However, that wouldn’t stop them from demanding that Periphery States should also be a member … (at the point of a bayonet!) …. If you are not with us you are against us, mentality ….

When a crisis arises the council comes together and forms a coalition force, they then determine the overall commander and dispatch them with a guideline as to what is expected of them as well as an exit strategy (thus when the commander achieves the overall goals – the war stops the SLDF disbands back into its constituent states military.

Ie. The Clans Invade – a Star League Council Session is called – The SLDF force is assembled that includes forces from all the Members within the Star League – Focht is given Command – War ensures until final victory is ensured – during this time each member state contributes weapons, men etc to the war – Victory for the SLDF – Disband the SLDF – each unit within the SLDF returns to their home State.

They could even have a permanent SLDF force within my new wild west Deep Periphery – acting as the Marshalls / Cavalry as per the western films. But in reality hired guns for their individual states policies of expansion and grabbing the best planets for their corporations at the expense of the homesteader …. This is therefore one of the reasons the homesteaders will one day rise up in a war of independence ……


QUOTE: Why would they bother to build in the deep periphery, when they had all the stuff they needed in clanspace? There is no logic to try and restart there.

Why?
1. Provides the Clan with an advantageous Invasion Corridor;
2. Political – shows their strength above that of other Clans in that they are able to build and maintain their own fiefdom;
3. And most import of all – military logistics – planning and carrying out the design, development, acquisition, storage, distribution, maintenance, evacuation, and disposal of material. A shorter chain provides each Clan with a greater Strategic advantage than that of a long chain (ie. Napoleon into Russia and Germany into Stalingrad)

Thus the establishment of these new ‘Mech / Elemental / Aerospace manufacturing facilities + Naval Facilities within the Deep Periphery will provide each clan with a strategic base and an advantage when a Second Invasion Corridor is implemented to win Terra and the right to become the iL-Clan. As it was shown in the First Invasion – Long Supply Lines with just resupply / navy repair hubs in the Deep Periphery were soon found by the IS Fenrir units and this lead to supply issues which lead to their eventual retreat into the Deep Periphery to maintain Unit Integrity and maintain a supply corridor from the Clan Home Worlds)

(ie. if Hitler had allowed his Generals to retreat in some cases (Stalingrad / Tunisia) rather than holding to the last man and the last bullet Germany would have been in a far better position to hold off Allies attacks for a far greater time than that of holding ground you cannot resupply).

If there are holes in my thinking then tell me – they can be worked out – though as it goes I am still of the opinion this makes more sense than that of of the original Cannon writing and yes numbers do come into it.

However there are so many areas from the original writings that did not include numbers, that unless you assign numbers to everything and try to keep tabs with every battle and every production run that it would require a massive computer program to determine every facet of the game world, and who would want to do that?

No, sometimes you must suspend your belief to ensure the game moves forward – Military units – Battles moving forward and an approximate resupply numbers – any more than this and the game will become an accountants nightmare don’t you think?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.


Edited by Requiem (08/06/18 09:48 PM)
Requiem
08/06/18 10:31 PM
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So the main reasons why the clans retreated back into the Deep Periphery could be summed up as due to …
1. Logistics / Supply – with dwindling supply ships (capture of Merchant Jumpships) you have logistical problems – new pilots; maintenance parts; ammunition etc.
2. Lost Merchant Jumsphips was beginning to affect each Clan’s ability to transport your exiting military Dropships, thus their overall ability to prosecute the invasion was being compromised.
3. Increasing number of Commando / Insurgent activity – assassinations / terrorist activities began to compromise their bases overall security.
4. With the introduction of SLDF PT Craft / Big Wing formations / BattleSats – Clan Warships were beginning to be destroyed in numbers that began to worry the Khans.
5. With the introduction of 2nd Generation Inner Sphere Omni Mechs / weapon systems the Clans technological superiority over the Inner Sphere was beginning to diminish as Inner Sphere R&D teams were beginning to make strides with reverse engineered clan weapons (with the assistance of former Clan technicians – who were now working for the Inner Sphere)

Thus the decision was made to abandon the First Invasion Corridor preserve their existing unit integrity – fall back to a more defensible position – re-arm and reequip – establish a shorter Logistics Chain by transporting a percentage of each Clans population to the Inner Sphere’s Deep Periphery + Sibcos etc

Thus the Clans have learnt from the mistakes of the First Invasion and thus, when ready, they will open a second Invasion Corridor back into the Inner Sphere to get the job done right this time.

Though with the Civil war that will erupt upon the Clan Home Worlds many of the Clans will Cut themselves loose from their Home Worlds, as it / when it becomes apparent they will loose to the combined forces of the SLDF and the remnants of Clan Wolverine. Thus they will secretly transport all their remaining people + any forces that will join them (Via trials of absorption) and they make their fiefdoms in the Deep Periphery into fortresses from which to preserve their culture and to wage a war of vengeance from.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
08/07/18 01:54 AM
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From the sounds of it, the fiefdom was to be done without going back to the home worlds. And honestly, making anything but munitions closer to the IS isn't really smart.
At that time, you risked the IS getting ahold of your tech, and factories to boot.
Since it is needed to have this poorly placed factory set up, otherwise the periphery forces won't find anything of worth except few depots which would be guarded beyond normal after a few are taken, it stops any further plans to continue with the Fenrir. So basing it on that idea is doing the same thing the canon writers did. Make things fit the end result, even if it doesn't make sense.

The idea of major aero forces would be seen by the clans and they would counter with their own. The Snow Ravens would push out more pilots, and maybe even in desperation, the other clans train their failed warriors to fly them. So that turns the idea back on the IS. Which the clan fighters are still better then the IS. Now they would have made ships more anti fighter, as well as alot of ams systems to stop the nukes. On top of that, all standing orders to remaining warships is to destroy any unidentified ships jumping into the system. Immediately. Even jump ships. Remove the threat entirely.

Going back to the egos, and wanting to rule it all, why would the house that has the most power, want to settle for being first lord? According to what was presented in the past, a full surrender to them would be the only thing to go for. No having the other nations say no to what ever. You want full domination of all. Anything less would not do.

Now a huge hole I can see in some of this, especially Victors sudden forces is time and materials. It is proposed that someone fleeing the IS, would be able to do what the periphery states have not been able to do since the original League attacked them.
Build a force capable of threatening a nation of the IS.
The periphery states have factories, people, resources and money to do so, a whole hell of a lot more then Victor would at this time.
And some of this would be the issue with the clans doing so initially after leaving the IS.
As it appears, a fully created nation would evolve in less then 5 years. Those numbers do not add up.

And before it goes into some supporting him to do so, very few, if any, would risk losing their place by supporting an exiled leader like that. Seizure of all properties would be the end result as well as execution of those doing so. Especially if Katherine is running the FC.
Requiem
08/07/18 03:00 AM
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QUOTE: that idea is doing the same thing the canon writers did. Make things fit the end result, even if it doesn't make sense.

Sorry if I disagree by logistics is a very big part of being an effective military force.

In addition these military manufacture sites will be guarded by the the entire Galaxies, whereas Depos were never guarded by anything close to this.

Thus you would need a full invasion fleet to get to them – and who says the inner Sphere were the only ones to have BattleSats and Ground Based anti Warship Guns etc!

QUOTE: You want full domination of all. Anything less would not do.

As for the establishment of the Star League …. Remember the times in which the Star League was established with regards to the Clan Invasion …. It had become a “we either hang alone or we hang together” sort of arrangement ie. it’s better to work with the devil you know than subjugate yourself before the devil you don’t!

So again the establishment is a done deal considering the time you are in and the wars current progression / outcome to date.

QUOTE: Build a force capable of threatening a nation of the IS.

How long were you thinking before the clans tried a second Invasion Corridor? 2 years?

Sorry to burst your bubble but I was thinking more along the lines of 20 to 30 years – Thus They have time to Re-establish a new Clan Words – Build new Factories and cities – New Tanks for the Children etc– and mass produce the Sibko on a scale that has never been dreamt of before so that when the second invasion Force goes in they will have twice the mechs, four times the aerospace, and ten times the elementals at a minimum more Jumpships, Dropships …. And we will rename all the current designations of all the units to reflect their new sizes from Star to Galaxy and beyond ….. we will devise new tactics to deal with the Bing Wings and The PT Boats etc ……… wewill crush the Fenrir Units ………..HaHahahahahaha!!!!!!!! (evil Laugh)

We are the Sword of Damocles above the Inner Sphere ………..HaHahahahahaha!!!!!!!! (evil Laugh again)

QUOTE: And before it goes into some supporting him to do so, very few, if any, would risk losing their place by supporting an exiled leader like that. Seizure of all properties would be the end result as well as execution of those doing so. Especially if Katherine is running the FC.

Sorry, disagree again, people will surprise you every time when they are led by a valiant leader in what they will or won’t do.

But then again I am a bit of an optimist and I believe people will help you and not act for their own base needs / wants and desires.

Except when it comes to Katherine, she is a unique case, and she will always put her needs first …. And as a future Lord of the FC and a member of the new Star League Council I could see her hand (“iron claws”), behind the scenes with the WOB and starting the War of Unification within the Periphery.

She is just the first in a string of people who will attempt to use the Star League for their own ends – a problem that will be needed to be fixed by 3250 when I have my star League Renaissance (and the war required to get it there)

So I still see a bright future for this new Battletech Universe 2.0 – it will provide the games with a more robust game zone than that of the Current Cannon. As the Current Cannon Appears as if you need a score card and an Ouija Board to work out many of the alliances and who’s alive and who isn’t – The Cannon of 3150 is lost in its own complexity … so good luck in working it out ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
08/07/18 11:31 AM
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What was done when Germany invaded Russia? Russia moved it factories much deeper into the territory to avoid the enemy from taking it. Now why would you waste the time and effort building a factory the enemy can take or just blow up easily?

The building a force capable of threatening an IS nation wasn't about the clans so much as Victors little area to try and take the thrones for his little family. Though in some aspects it could be used with the clans.
With the clans, you would have to throw out their repulsion to waste. They have the factories on the home worlds, why waste the time and resources building something in the periphery? To have supplies closer to the IS seems to be the thought. As I said about a munitions plant, I could agree with that.
The forces each clan has guarding what was based on them thinking they would win the war quickly. Had they planned it properly, they would have had more units guarding depots, which they started doing after they got stopped by comstar.
I would like to know where you get galaxies guarding a factory at. Even with hostile clans around them, they didn't do that in the home worlds. Granted, I would suspect they were immune to attacks directly. Trials of possession would be fought away from them.

So you are going to have a second set up like the SDLF leaving the IS? Following the canon writings, but this time Victor being the one they head out with? You don't see the logic hole here?
Alexander Kerensky was a very popular leader of the Star League long before they thought to leave the IS. He had the resources available to take what he thought was needed, including population needed to run everything, including farming, mining, wood harvesting, then scientists, techs and such to run it all. They all left at once and no one that would try to follow knew where. A simple pair of the 'big wings' would be enough to wipe out Victors retreat, and you know Katherine would order it.
ghostrider
08/07/18 11:44 AM
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I will say initially, I don't think the clans have many anti warship batteries done up. They were set up for honorable trials to claim the prizes, and were reluctant to even damage them. But they would build them once they found out the IS could stop them.

The statement of taking out the CC applies here. It was said only full destruction of the CC would satisfy Hanse. That would include removing Sun-Tzu and Kali. Then it was said that he would not allow anyone that wasn't named Steiner-Davion to rule nations. So that would mean removing Candace. And the idea of her taking over command of the CC was out of the question. Yet that very thing would have given the FC more votes in the future League.
Though it still doesn't make sense on why you want to rule the UN, instead of domination of the entire world. But then it sets up logic holes that you would do it one way, then change it to suit something else.
Given the fact in the alt history, the CC was destroyed, and the FC had all these new units and resources the CC had, why do you think the FC would lose so many worlds or even need the others to beat back the clans?
I mean that is why the CC had to die, isn't it?

Given what we do know from the canon version, why do you think the others would not call for a head hunting(assassination) strike against Katherine? She destroyed alot of lives of some very powerful people, not excluding her own siblings with killing their mother. She is the Amaris in the making.
Wait. That follows the same line as the canon writers did.
Requiem
08/07/18 07:17 PM
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I don’t think this is a Russia pulling its manufacturing facilities back kind of situation.

If your current Logistical support system is no longer adequate (as per Stalingrad and Tunisia – due to a very long supply chain) you need to re-think how you are doing things, you need to shorten the chain – make the chain more defensible.

As they were in an over-extended position they need to consolidate their position before it collapses – thus they retreat into a highly defensible position outside of the Inner Sphere and into the Deep Periphery .Thereby making it very difficult for the Forces of the Inner Sphere to pursue them at this time. However at the same time they have created a ‘Sword of Damocles’ that is now hanging over the head of the Inner Sphere, a sword that can strike deep with a second Invasion Corridor .

Thus the concentration of force and resources (Logistics) both preserves combat power and ‘guarantees’ a far greater chance of success for a second Invasion.

They have also realised at this stage that the war will not be over ‘by Christmas’, the War with the Inner Sphere could be anywhere from one to two decades in length unless they re-evaluate how they are to conduct the war. That is rather than a war of conquest of territory to that of a war to destroy their enemies’ ability to conduct war. They would also realise the way the Inner Sphere forces conduct war (though thoroughly shameful) would require the Clans to re-evaluate how they operate – this would also include how they guard their facilities due to how the Inner Sphere conducts war.

Ie. In the beginning the Inner Sphere had to adapt, however, now the roles have reversed and the Clans must adapt as their minimization of damage / trials are not honoured by the forces of the Inner Sphere.

As for Katherine – remember the time period and the position she is in at this stage.

First Victor and Katherine’s mother has not been assassinated.
Second, Katherine and Mellissa and even possibly Yvonne are to be the Regents of the FC whist Victor and his fleet leave for Clan Space
Third, Politically Katherine must be seen as a pro Star League
Fourth, why send fighters when one assassin could do the job and cover his/ her tracks to make it look like Victor died in combat with the Clans?
Fifth, with the death of Victor on the Battlefield – she is automatically the heir to the throne and how long will her mother hold onto power? At this stage all she needs to do is nothing – be her normal charming self – be seen as the darling of the media – be seen to care about all the people of the FC and she will be loved by all the FC as their First Princess (a First Princess with very sharp Caws though hidden from the eyes of the public).

As for the CC, they had to die at the time to elevate the FC above all others - yes the C would have ended ip with a larger military – No Sun Tzu and Kali did not die but were sent to their Aunt on St. Ives – Yes a Davion and a Steiner were given half each of the new FWL March /Terran Corridor by this time – and yes you could have even had a war whereby the DC uses Sun Tzu to invade the Terren Corridor and at the end of this Kali kills Sun Tzu for this.

So by the end of the Fist Clan Invasion No worlds have been lost – borders have been re-established to that of the Pre-Clan Invasion.

As Fenrir forces return the Inner Sphere (people and corporations) begin an exodus into the Deep Periphery - chasing the dream of wealth / new life etc. as knowledge as to the many new viable worlds becomes known – plus the FC assists these people / corporations as they are expanding the size of the FC – pus they are beginning to establish a military presence in the Deep Periphery, a buffer stare between the Inner Sphere and the Clans.

Thus a new exodus begins. ( and with it the wild, wild west)
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
08/07/18 10:54 PM
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The periphery has had the feel of the wild west. Most smaller nations, even individual planets had it going for them. The deep periphery will soon become back water worlds for the FC/DC. They the term has to be moved further out. There isn't any real reason why the normal periphery couldn't be the wild west.
Though resources would bring in big corporations, and the governments to help protect them. And yes, the big companies will try to make the governments pay to protect their properties. Some will have a few security forces, but the main fighting will be military.

This is more of NOT making mech and weapon factories in the periphery. But as happens with ideas like this, real world examples seem to be the only thing that even allows contemplation of it.
The long supply lines will happen, but that is why you increase the jumpships and dropships to haul the supplies. More and faster. Better designed defenses around supply bases, but you still run the risk of an orbital bombardment. But it is better to lose a depot then a factory with a depot and all those people trained to run the factory and such. And honestly answer this. Do you really need new mechs made closer to the enemy? Or just ammo/armor that is being used?
Replacements will be needed, but not at the cost of fast building factories, only to find out they were not able to guard them in the periphery. But that is the logic I do see.

It does run into issues of supply and demand, but fighter stations in orbit are the best idea here. Faster response times, as no need to climb out of atmosphere to engage.

One warning about changing the ways the clans think in regards to the IS not responding honorably to trials is needed. As they become more likely to have the IS ignore or worse, grant then violate them, the clans would drop all ideas of an honorable fight, and possibly start using those very tactics back, like your nuke idea, only making sure the leaders worlds are targeted. Removing Defiance Industries makes it that much easier to destroy the corrupt IS. That would be thought of all manufacturing plants.
So you would actually start off the 5th succession wars, with the clans being involved.
Requiem
08/08/18 02:35 AM
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Initially yes there would be long supply chains. However over time these supply chains will be reduced to nil as the fighting within Clan Space Intensifies and the inheritors of Clan Wolverines Will and Operation Serpent fleet inevitably crush the remaining Clans on the home worlds.

Though, those Clans who remained in the Deep Periphery and remained out of the Clan Home-world War have built a new society by transferring their people and industries into the Deep Periphery. (Foresight on things yet to come?)

Therefore, they have built the infrastructure (etc.) to keep their new society moving forward.

Now as for battlefield logistics, it is about everything from the smallest to the largest.

With the correct application of understanding logistics it will increase the fighting capabilities of the Clan Forces and provides for a greater chance of success for when the second Invasion commences. (As for the Clans Winning is life!)

By the time of the Second Invasion, in 20+ years, they will not leave their rear practically undefended when going to war they will garrison them in a similar way as that of the Inner Sphere forces when they garrison theirs ….

Over time the Clans will adapt …. Fist, by a new code of war in that their honourable ways of trials etc is to be utilized just between those units who have a Clan Heritage … when fighting an IS unit they will no longer use these tactics as they are unworthy.

Ie …. Adapt …. Overcome … conquer (survive)

For me going full Jihad / First Succession War kind of defeats the purpose of the game – thus Nukes are limited to Naval engagements only?.

But why can’t you call the games existing nukes by another high explosive name – as they have been reduced in power to such an extent that it is already practically not a nuclear weapon.

Thus you could in all intense and purposes remove WMDs from the game completely … they shouldn't be utilized with the game at all!.

By utilizing nukes etc. it just becomes the land of the blind. "and in the land of the blind the one eyed man is king"

These WMDs turn a fun game into something without meaning and no fun at all …. If you want a 5th Succession War then make your own universe but for me I want something else something like the way it once was back in 3025 etc

As the game was originally written and not the darker universe the current Canon writing has devolved it into.

So we take an area of space that is completely been underutilized and start with a land grab – followed by those who want to take everything away from the homesteader backed up by the hired gun … so yes I am creating another area of space that could be considered to be a new wild, wild west … and these are followed by law and order and the church to reform society … and a political desire initially to be part of either the FC / DC / FRR … this over time will wane and the old desire is replaced with a new desire of independence …

Somewhere in the middle of all this you have your second Clan Invasion ….

And all without it devolving into anything as idiotic as a 5th Succession war (Jihad in all but name)
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
08/08/18 03:13 AM
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Nothing is said about the FWL looking to expand in the periphery.
And the implication to what is here, is to expand all towards the clans home worlds.
That moves the fighting along, but also removes some logic to it.
They would expand in all directions, just an emphasis on the clan route.
Though I would think that would be more of a set of military forts with munitions being made then full fledged colonies until the clans are taken care of.

Human nature would have the clans start looking for a way to beat the greater numbers of the IS. The restriction to using nukes to naval combat is fine with a game master that will not let it degrade. As this is a suggestion to others, there will be some that will start a nuke fest.
It doesn't affect your campaign, but it opens logic holes like the canon does. If you are really trying to keep them closed, then something else needs to come about.

Given it is an alt, moving up the time tables on when capital missiles are done for the IS, or even reducing the size of them to be used on dropships and fighters is possible, though a bit of a stretch.
But this is supposed to be a sci fi game. Star Trek has photon torpedoes on their shuttles. I don't see why they couldn't make a smaller missile for fighters in BT. Still haven't seen the range of the alamo missile. The PPC may well be the way to go, if the range is too short for the missile. It can be hooked to a TC making it even more likely to hit. Normal Gauss rifle would work as well. More then a one shot wonder.
Requiem
08/08/18 04:42 AM
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The FWL ….

Yes they would be looking to expand into the Periphery also. However, they could be said to have an easier time of it as their partners would be assisting with many of the issues an exploration would be encountering.

So the still united realm of the Duchy of Andurien and the Magistracy of Canopus assist the Free Worlds League to expand both of their realms by fining new planets to colonise. Though with the absence of any major competing force (That is unless the Taurian Concordat get involved).

QUOTE: They would expand in all directions, just an emphasis on the clan route.

First, Fenrir have been throughout the sector making it easier to colonise this area of space first (ie. there is a map of habitable worlds etc);
Second, by having a map you make it cheaper to colonize:
Third, by colonising this area of space first hopefully you are creating a buffer state between the Inner Sphere and the Clans Home Wolds in the event of a second invasion.

Having the colonists run into the new Clan fiefdoms would make for a great back story – as many would have thought they went home and are now being battled by the Taskforce Serpent, so it would come as a surprise to find them within their own fiefdoms ….

And yes there are Arrow IV air-to-a-air type missiles in existence + others

Though as for Human Nature … human nature meet house rules

Plus this could be where an exploration group encounters a ragtag fleet being led by the BattleStar Galactica searching for the 13th Tribe of Man as they are fleeing the Cylons ….. Oops sorry about that wrong story …. But we do need another hidden army to threaten humanity (as we have had ComGuard, WoB, Clans) so who’s next?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
08/08/18 11:50 AM
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Just a note on the clans. Making a fiefdom would be diverting from their perceived path of Kerensky. It is about the greed of the IS to have a personal area like that.
Plus they would be more wanting to rule over all the other clans, ie a mini innersphere at the home worlds.
So wasting the resources on that might stop this entirely. Outside of an alt setting.

A question that needs to be asked about the Wolverines.
They went out of the IS towards the Outworlds Alliance. Just curious on why they would head back towards clan territory, as they were under an annihilation order. They knew they would be swarmed by those clans left, so having their main colony(s) near there doesn't really make sense.

We know the clans would search the areas near them, if not for possible resources for the future, if nothing else.
Requiem
08/08/18 05:56 PM
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The “perceived path of Kerensky”?…. They, the Clans, had already deviated away from what was the desired path outlined by Nicholas … the Khans and Sa-Khans at this stage only care about combat prowess, the perception (real or otherwise) of strength and winning at all costs.

Like Vietnam the Clans cannot comprehend ‘loosing’ in battle to the Inner Sphere, whom they have objectified as a people as something less than themselves, ie. barbarians. That only though force of arms will become the something of use to the Clans, as vassals / workers for the Clans, who like their own people require a strong and firm grip on power and who are directed each and every day to becoming a positive member of society.

And just like Vietnam they will send in more and more troops as this would be seen as the only way forward to ultimate victory. Thus it is not a stretch of the imagination that they, the Clans, would establish forward combat bases for a second invasion front.

With a long logistics chain comes with it the inherent weakness that it can be attacked during transport (WWII Atlantic – where German submarines sought out and attacked allied submarines). Thus the only viable option is to rebuild armaments manufacturing centres – training facilities etc. – reduce the size of the logistics chain and maintain security and cohesion for the second invasion of the Inner Sphere.

This is not a matter of wasting resources by establishing duplicate manufacturing facilities – one within the Clan Home Worlds and the other within the Deep Periphery Fiefdom – this is about obtaining a military advantage going forward.

So let’s consider this from a different perspective …

To transfer supplies from the Clan Home Worlds to the front lines takes five to six months – this would require multiple merchant jumpship fleets consisting of hundreds if not thousands of Dropships to maintain their forces within the Inner Sphere Invasion Corridor Operational Zone – So we are not looking at two or three fleets, in reality we would be looking at something more along the line of ten to twelve fleets each containing a minimum of 100-200 dropships (at a bare minimum) to keep their forces within the Inner Sphere prosecuting the war as they rotate too and from the Forward Operational Zone. However with the establishment of forward manufacturing sites these fleet sizes would be reduced to a very small fraction of those initially required.

These jumships / dropships that were initially utilized for logistics transport to and from the Inner Sphere can now be repurposed to other duties (back within the Clans Home Worlds or as a new fleet to transport their military to more battlefields at one time than was able to be accomplished during the initial invasion).

Repurposing the Clan Merchant Fleet for a second Invasion Corridor will provide them with tactical / strategic advantage that they did not have during the first Invasion of the Inner Sphere.

As for the Wolverines ….

Remember there are two different Wolverine groups in my Alt Story arc …

First, the Clan Wolverine who fled the Clan Home Worlds after being framed by Nicholas for a War Crime they did not do, that of using a nuclear weapon upon a genetic repository (ie. Nicholas ordered it to be utilized so that he could hold onto his political / military power base by any means necessary);

So therefore they are still out there, somewhere hidden away ….

Second, those insurgents within the “Dark Caste” who are actively fighting against the Clans and their society – their aim is to re-establish a Star League Democratic Government, by the people and for all the people – and not just for the Warrior Class alone who are currently the only people allowed to control the Executive Government.

Those that I have named as The Inheritors of Clan Wolverine’s Will …..

It is these insurgents who rise up with Operation Serpent to overthrow the tyranny of the existing system and re-establish a Star League Government and society (Liberty, Fraternity and Equality) - And thus doing away with eugenics, the caste system, fostering etc …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
08/08/18 06:22 PM
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Nice to see the explanation of the insurgents not being clan Wolverine. It sheds a lot of light on more then a few things.

Evolution of what Kerensky wanted is much like what goes on in an argument. One side thinks only certain things will allow growth, while the other thinks it's a bad idea. As victors make the rules, the path went off to make those in charge of the military close to gods for everyone to work for.
And which Kerensky was the path to follow?
Alexander's warden path?
Or Nicolas's crusader path?

Mech factories would not be a bright idea in between the IS and clanspace. Munitions and armor would be.
With the numbers of ships needed to move supplies, the clans already had them working. Wolf was smart enough to deal with local sources for things like food, instead of having to ship it in, like the other clans were doing. That allowed for more things like ammo and replacement pods.

And still the mentality of the clans leaders is missing. They do not make a personal domain just because. Now if the 'fiefdom' was actually an extension of clan space, then it might fly.
By the time WOB hits, is it very possible that attitude changes. But right after the invasion, they would see a personal domain as wasteful IS corrupted thinking. Might be a military complex making items verse actually colonies is the issue as I see it.

Then it would come down to does each clan make their own? Or do they make a community one that all use?
Requiem
08/08/18 07:51 PM
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Who said anything about a personal fiefdom?

What I am suggesting are multiple (though they could be attached to each other) systems that each former 1st Invasion Corridor Clans retreat into to preserve the integrity of the whole Clan’s Forces.

In addition to these you could even add additional Clan Forces from other Clans from the Home Worlds – say two or three (as new Trials are conducted to determine who also can be included for the Second Invasion of the Inner Sphere) .

OK I take your point, how about I change my initial assumption then as to the reason / date for the establishment of the fiefdom?

Changed approach - let us say this then – The new Fiefdom is an extension of the Clan Home Worlds for those Clans that have proven their worth and have been allowed to participate in the Invasion Itself – It is a Colony for all intense and purposes - and was being established during the initial Invasion – Clan Diamond Shark discovered multiple systems that could be easily colonized due to agriculture, mineral wealth etc – plus their proximity to the Inner Sphere would also allow for excellent training facilities / manufacture of ordinance etc. – thus the decision was made by the Clan’s Council to utilize these worlds as a stopping off point before reaching the Inner Sphere itself - and to initially include the manufacture of ordinance and Warship / Jumpship / Dropship repair facilities etc and that of a personnel way point for Warriors / Technicians etc before they are sent into the Inner Sphere.

These worlds were never found by Fenrir Units during the First Clan Invasion War.

With the Clans retreat from the Inner Sphere the decision was made to hold the line at these new colony worlds. It was also decided that these colony worlds would become a Clan fortress (Tip of the spear) and with it the production facilities for ‘Mechs / Elementals / Aerospace plus Sibko training facilities would also be established – thus turning these Colony Worlds into fully functioning Clan Worlds. Hence additional personnel were sent to these worlds from the Clan Home Worlds to advance their development.

With these changes do you think I am getting closer to the mark? Going from a Colony Worlds (agriculture, mining etc, ordinance manufacture facilities) to Garrison Worlds (that would then include manufacturing 'Mechs / Elementals / Aerospace) as well as training facilities etc.

Thoughts?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
08/08/18 09:42 PM
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What if these clans, once ejected from the Inner Sphere, rather than returning to the Clan Home Wolds established new fiefdoms within the Deep Periphery – that is each one of the Clans conquers either the Hanseatic League, Nueva Castile, Jarnfolk or established their own fiefdom.

Have I not just made some of them a power to be reckoned with by turning them into a Clan fiefdom? How would you feel if either / or Clan Jade Falcon or Wolf was now positioned as a periphery power above your realm? – Makes for an interesting plot twist.
Both of these statements make it sound very much like the retreating clans would have their own personal 'fiefdom' as well as suggesting they did not return to the clan worlds, but started their own personal holdings in the periphery.
These come from your first two posts in this thread.
The first one is why I thought there isn't the resources or the time for the clans to rebuild before heading back in.
Rather then returning to the clan home worlds. That isn't 20 years later. That is not going right after leaving the IS.
Requiem
08/09/18 02:02 AM
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The definition of ‘Personal’ is belonging or affecting a particular 'person' rather than anyone else – Therefore the way I have taken this statement is belonging to the Khan not the Clan.

That is after their ejection from the Inner Sphere the Khan assumes total control, and as such has no fealty to the Clan Home-worlds, therefore establishing his/her own ‘private’ area of space the same as that of any pirate.

Even if it is just after their ejection – they conquer – they establish bases – they use their HPG transmitters to call ‘home’ – they request a relief force consisting of all necessary people and equipment and over time they establish a colony – then after further time these worlds could be considered to be on par with the worlds within the Clan Home-worlds with regards to technological development / Industries / Agriculture / Mining and Processing etc.

Or/-

The colony was already established and with the influx of military units the worlds are garrisoned and turned into a copy of any world within the Clan’s Home-worlds – men, machinery, technology, industry etc. …..

However you want to take it, it will make for a good story and it will establish a good future war with the Clans once more …

And is this not what you want in the Game?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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