Requiem
08/09/18 07:03 PM
58.175.193.140
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Let us consider the Lyran Commonwealth in the years prior to 3150
The Lyran Commonwealth is at war against both Clan Jade Falcon and Clan Wolf
The rightful Archon Melissa Steiner has been removed in a bloodless coup by the military hign command and has been replaced by Vedet Brewer in 3141.
Fast forward 2 years to 3143, just prior to Clan Jade Falcon and Clan Wolf’s invasion of Tharkad. Vedet (together with his 1st Hesperus Guards) flee to the world of Alekseyevka, where he is granted asylum by Margrave Diego Widmer.
Melissa is quickly returned to her rightful position as Archon – she is however only given enough time to name her successor, Trillian Steiner-Davion, and then sacrifice herself to ensure Trillian and the rest of the Lyran leadership survived the attack on the Capitol. Melissa is thus assassinated by Clan Wold elementals.
Trillion is therefore the new Archon – in an effort to save some of the Lyran Commonwealth she decides to amputate parts of the Lyran Commonwealth - and neither Vedet or Clan Wolf have yet to be punished for their parts in the death of Archon Melissa Steiner by 3150 ….
Where was Loki …. Where was Heimdall in all of this?
Heimdall protected Katrina Steiner from Loki Assassins and later aided Melissa Steiner’s rescue from Kidnappers …. So where were they?
In not acting did they then agree with Melissa’s removal and Vedet’s investiture as Acting Archon?
Post 3143 and up to 3150 ….
Why is Vedet allowed to live, why has Loki not acted to assassinate him?
Why has the Lyran Commonwealth not acted against either Vedet or Clan Wolf?
Is the Lyran Commonwealth that beaten down that they simply cannot act?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/09/18 11:20 PM
66.74.61.223
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So someone outside of the Stiener blood line took over the LC, and there is no problem with that? Yet Peter naming Adam was?
Suggesting Melisa sacrificed herself, then saying she was assassinated contradicts each other. It is one or the other.
The rest of this, I can't answer, as it is beyond where I stopped buying materials, though I did buy a few dark ages novels.
But let's use some common sense.
As it would reflect on the government badly, if Vedet was assassinated, he would be immune to the LC doing so. It would create huge riots around the nation. As for him taking the throne, which should have been illegal according to the Adam Stiener thread, was bloodless. As I don't know if the military blackmailed her into stepping down, or what, I can not go further with facts. A guess would be, his fleeing from the battle was to protect the 'Archon' (himself) from being killed. Not sure why he would need to be killed for taking the throne, but his retreat should make sure he will never lead the LC again.
Another possible plot is LOKI agreed with the military, and could very well have prevented Heimdall from acting. Then again, what are they supposed to do when an invasion is happening? It isn't like throwing themselves into the bullets path would prevent her death.
As I am not sure of the facts around the assassination, I would have to assume they were not out head hunting. Though in the middle of an invasion, that would seem the most likely thing to be done. And for all war purposes, head hunting is a legal tactic by the military. Assassination would mean they were there outside of a conflict on the world to kill her. Big difference.
It is possible the LC can't do anything about the invasion as amputating parts of the LC was done. It is possible Trillion has no abilities to even begin to deal with this, and with the coup happening, trusting the military is not likely.
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Requiem
08/10/18 03:07 AM
58.175.193.140
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First, Vedet’s investiture was via a coup (the use of the military to overthrow the legitimate government to implement a reshine change). Whereas Peter’s naming of Adam was through a “legitimate” power transfer – therefore two different means of power transfer.
Sorry no, she did sacrifice herself … she knowingly stepped in front in order to save others, she gave the last full measure of devotion … the Wolves did not have to kill her, and yet they did … an act that can only be described as an assassination. (it therefore can be both).
As for Vedet he was in all intense and purposes the leader of a Coup – has the Lyran Commonwealth thus given up on juris prudence and the law? Rather than being assassinated would it not be better to get in in front of a court?
And as for riots – could you really say he was the beloved by the people that they would riot for him – his cowardess by failing to defend Tharkad (The Capitol of the Lyran Commonwealth) would, you would have thought, have made the people despise him for taking his troops and just running away – as an Archon would stand and fight to defend his/her people.
Question how has Loki ever prevented Heimdall from doing anything without resulting to killing someone?
Both Loki and Heimdall had two years, two years in which to rescue the true Archon from Vedet and yet they didn’t – I can only say that once again the writers decided to ignore the inconvenient / suspend disbelief and write away without looking at or even contemplating about all the players that are on the field. Thus more hack writing by not understanding the universe and the players that are in it!
As for Trillian not trusting the military – there are always other options LIC, Heimdall, Personal Assassin, Mercenary Contract (Though a double blind) – though I will say this so far her term as Archon has been very disappointing, I thus cannot see her being in the position as Archon for long, that is unless she is able to change her entire personality.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/10/18 02:46 PM
66.74.61.223
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The riots isn't so much about the person themselves, though popular ones tend to get larger crowds going, it is more that the government would even sanction them. What is to prevent rulers from just killing anyone that disagrees with them?
I do have to ask. Do you think head hunting is an assassination?
This is a tricky question to answer.
I haven't access to all of LOKI's mission files, so since the question assumes they can't, I will suggest just being there, like guarding a person or facility that keeps Heimdall out with a shot fired is one such way. Even screening people do allow them into government buildings and such.
Then again Heimdall would defend themselves if Loki raided a safe house. If they surrender peacefully, no deaths are done.
And yes. Loki does have a history of killing people without authorization, so I am not defending them.
Interesting that it is a hack, and not paying attention to the players, yet only one person had said such things since I have been on the board. Well forcefully talking about it. Most accept is as a necessary evil and play the game with it.
And there is your hobbling of nations. Trillian is weak, therefore the LC is going to be cut up even more. Might even allow more smaller states to form.
By the way. What were the elementals orders? To take the rulers into custody, or head hunt them?
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Requiem
08/10/18 06:17 PM
58.175.193.140
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Governments sanctioning a riot?
QUOTE: What is to prevent rulers from just killing anyone that disagrees with them?
The rule of law itself, as well as morality you would hope as without this there is just anarchy.
QUOTE: Do you think head hunting is an assassination?
To answer you questing then if it is done in a military setting where two military leaders are on the board in a “mech / elemental suit where they have weapons to defend themselves then no I would not classify this as an assignation as it is a legitimate strategy.
However, when you actively plan and execute this plan to go after a civilian political leader of the state and kill them (rather than taking them prisoner) then yes I would call this an assassination.
There is a fine line between the two.
LOKI is a special operations unit, in my opinion they would be like combining MI5 with that of the SAS. Thus saying they can’t is a little bit on the ridiculous – I would consider them to be the shadow Pretorian Guard for the Archon so standing them down for two years shows a lack of understanding of one of the major players within the Lyran Commonwealth.
Heimdall are the loyal opposition their aim is curb some of the major excesses that LOKI are able to perpetrate when they are let of their leash (they could quite easily become something similar to that of a secret police – the Gestapo) and this is why they act upon their conventions to keep the Lyran people free from such a fate.
I wold have thought that the removal of the Legitimate Government to that of a Rump Government would have put them to the forefront of the struggle for a legitimate and free government?
So therefore I can only say the writers again did not understand at all the major players within the Lyran state – as in such a situation they would act to preserve the Lryan state and the Lyran peoples laws and freedom that had been quashed by a military hanta via a coup d’etat.
A politically week leader is not trusted by either the people or the military no matter how good intentioned they may be. What the Lyran people need now is if the spirit of Margret Thatcher / Elizabeth I could inhabit Trillian.
A Trillian with such a spirit would put them all on the run in no time at all.
However the writing / plot development is not that great so I am not expecting much when they finally get around to writing the next book.
QUOTE: What were the elementals orders? To take the rulers into custody, or head hunt them?
Unfortunately I do not know – I only know the outcome – but we can say that Elementals are like a Dagger once let loose their first thought is to kill,
We also know the disposition of the overall commander of the Wolves – Alric.
so if I was to make a logical deduction I would assume that Alric would have given them orders to kill rather than capture.
For capturing would go against everything he believes in – as no quarter is asked for and none is given.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/10/18 09:01 PM
66.74.61.223
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And what if Loki agreed to the attack? Maybe even helped it along? Lesser things have happened in the past.
Also, who would risk having their jumpship confiscated, just for one person or even group? Even the military would be lothed to do so without a very large taskforce to get in there.
I see the lack of a simple logic here. It is better to have a puppet on the throne, then to do it yourself. The target is the throne sitter. You do as you like and they get the blame. Not much for the power players in the shadows.
Again, they did as they wanted to with their story line. They may have a very good reason for doing so, or maybe have a chart on people's quirks and roll randomly to find out how the next ruler is. I don't work with them, so can't tell you. Not understanding their own universe? Sheesh.
Unfortunately I do not know – I only know the outcome. This is what I thought. How can you say assassination when you don't even know what their orders were. They could well have been there to remove Vedet, and found Melissa.
And the fact Alaric is her grandson has no part in this? Katherine teach him that it is ok to kill family on a whim?
And then, not push for the LC to surrender to the wolves?
With free passage, he would be able to land on terra quickly and deal with the forces guarding it, instead of having to fight everything between his area and there.
Even more with strategies in other threads, the LC supplying him with munitions and even possible units wouldn't even be thought of?
Where is the logic in that?
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Requiem
08/11/18 04:00 AM
58.175.193.140
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QUOTE: And what if Loki agreed to the attack? Maybe even helped it along? Lesser things have happened in the past.
The question then is, “Would all of the Loki cells on Tharkad and those who are able to return to Tharkad (within the two years) agree to the coup d’etat by the military or would they act to restore the legitimate Archon?
Yes lesser things have happened – yet I am not convinced – I still believe some of the cell groups would have acted to restore the true Archon with the two years of her incarceration.
A simple 007 mission in – out, transfer her off world – hey presto government in exile … followed by a civil war again?
And yes I do not think they didn’t know the Battletech Universe, if they had it wouldn’t have been another poorly though out plot.
QUOTE: And the fact Alaric is her grandson has no part in this? Katherine teach him that it is ok to kill family on a whim?
Character mix up here, Alari’c grandmother was killed by his mother how many years ago prior to his mother taking the Lyran Alliance from the FC prior to the Civil War prior to the Jihad etc……
This is the daughter of Adam Steiner … no relation whatsoever ….
And the issue of what the orders were are moot – the deed is the thunderous and it ended in the death of an Archon …. A point that the Lyran people will call murder and they will call it an assassination!
Alaric has yet to breach the Republic fortress and he is yet to arrive on Terra and face the Republic’s forces so that battle has not yet occurred.
As for LC supplying him with munitions – no he would just take it – as for units and Mechs – 1st they would hae to test out as they are bondsman second I though the clans despised IS Mechs – a loss of honour – so why carry around second rate IS people – as bondsman – who may betray him at the first chance they get, they are not Clan they are LC remember.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/11/18 12:26 PM
66.74.61.223
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I was thinking of units as being mechs, vehicles, and such, but soldiers could be considered as well.
Taking munitions may well suit him if he had a pirate mentality, but the lack of armed resistance would go a long way to getting to terra with all his forces intact.
Now if he didn't see that as a good thing, then there is a hole there.
Also, those that have lost their rides, may well consider the loss of honor using the IS units, but could gain glory and honor by using them to destroy the enemy with an inferior unit. I know they are much like IS pilots. Use anything they can get their hands on.
I don't see anything there about the possibility of them being sent after Vedet, and missing him. It may well have been the movement to protect the others that got them to fire. Self preservation does exist in the clans, though they normally aren't too worried about it.
I can not really say what was going on with loki, but give out some possible things. The leaders could well have ordered all units away from the capital, as to allow them to continue their work elsewhere. Even the risk of getting people inside may well have been to much risk for them.
It could well be, some cells did try to free the archon, and failed, or were stopped by Heimdall without them knowing what they were up to. Or reverse.
If you think about it, since Melisa stepped down, it could well have signaled loki to obey the new archon. No fight, so acceptance would be seen.
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Requiem
08/11/18 06:34 PM
58.175.193.140
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The Clan’s attitude has definitely changed from the Invasion days if they will use anything they can get their hands on don’t you think?
Yes self-preservation exists in all of us … however so too does the recognition of the consequences of action committed, with a dead Archon at the hands of elemental, no matter how it was committed (that is unless she was in a ‘Mech at the time), the Lyran press would call it murder … and they will call Alaric and his wolfs assassins. However, if she was in a ‘Mech – they would have glorified her actions as a valiant stand against the enemy of the Lyran people and she would be buried with all pomp and circumspect …..
Loki agent do take orders I would agree, however they are also highly trained intelligence operatives who have a mind of their own – thus they could consider an order to be illegal and act as per their conscious.
And considering it too hard to get done – I cannot believe this – there is always a weak spot that can be exploited.
If cells were stopped then this should have been included in story … it gives you a perspective as to what is going on in the background … excluding it just makes for a hack writer.
And she didn’t step down by her own free will it was a coup – the military using force
This is not a justifiable action – have a look at the old black and white film “7 days in May”
Or read some of the quotes from the film
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0058576/quotes
Thus providing the writer a good template for when you begin writing the story.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (08/11/18 08:32 PM)
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ghostrider
08/11/18 10:55 PM
66.74.61.223
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The Clan’s attitude has definitely changed from the Invasion days if they will use anything they can get their hands on don’t you think?
This is completely false. They have warships and nukes on the home worlds. They did not use them on worlds after Turtle Bay. The IS on the other hand used them more for this then the clans did.
So she was shackled and taken off the palace floor like a criminal? Or did she address the nation saying she would step down, without telling them the military had a coup?
What should be noted is the fact Vedet didn't summon the forces to retake Tharkad. He was in charge and left the capital world in enemy hands. Even if he did not lead them, it would be an imperative. Otherwise, the military would suggest he blackmailed them into supporting Vedet.
Oh. Another thought came up. Since Tharkad was owned by the enemy, and with the clans being the gods of everything, they could well have gotten into the Loki HQ, and got the information they needed to stop all agents from getting to Tharkad, including ships they used, call signs, codes, channels, names real and cover, as well as a few other things. Even laying a trap for them. Even a simple conspirator in Loki could well have gotten them the access needed.
Imagination is a wonder full thing. Great story lines if you actually think beyond hating the way the story is going.
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Requiem
08/12/18 01:08 AM
58.175.193.140
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First, post-coup that was led by Vedet and the military command upon Tharkad at the time, the decision was made to lock her away.
For a leader to run and give up his capital without a fight … remember what happed to Pompey Magnus when he abandoned Rome to Julius Caesar without a fight!
No the military high command who supported Vedet would all stand before a court of enquiry on a charge of Treason, in my opinion.
No if Loki’s building / proprietary information would have been under threat there would have been a failsafe – all information purged … building self-destruct initiated.
Being logical and understanding reality also helps when you realise the story has lost the plot.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/12/18 01:54 AM
66.74.61.223
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There is no logic in this as there isn't hard numbers to back it up. Implications is the only thing we have. As you refuse to talk to the developers to find out what they had, this argument runs on assumptions on your part.
I have tried to bring up things that might have been, or possible. Only things like gutting the FS economy by conscripting the jumpships for the 4th war says they did not have alot of jumpships.
Some how, that statement isn't getting thru. Joining with the LC would have helped there, but they were not much for giving each other assets. And with Katherines pulling the LC out of the FC, she took all of the FS jumpships that were ferrying troops to the front, had put a hard limit on what the FS could do. That is in the books.
Victor himself said he couldn't get the jumpships to even attack Katherine for that.
But again, no hard numbers.
So until you get them, stop saying the developers and writers needed to do things your way, as you have only your vision of how things go to argue from.
It is their universe. They make and break the rules as they see fit.
Tell them that on the official board. Maybe they might fix it. Doubtful, but possible.
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Requiem
08/12/18 03:51 AM
58.175.193.140
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The Archon is Dead, Long Live the Archon ….
The LC cry for vengeance upon those that have wronged her so badly …. Both Vedet and Clan Wolf …
Now is the time to deal with both rather than cutting up the LC in a futile attempt to keep a part of it together …
Now is when the LC needs an Elizabeth I …
However the new Archon is Trillion and it is early days …
What I would like to see is a return to the Steiner fortitude of that of 3025 …what is required is a rebuilding of the nation’s military into a strong professional army and in vast numbers
However given the current writers fondness for all things Clan I have little hope ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/12/18 12:15 PM
66.74.61.223
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So the combine giving up worlds to the FRR was completely wrong?
Then the FC giving up worlds as well, even though they did not do so to avoid the enemy coming thru the border?
Hanse giving up worlds to the St. Ives compact was completely wrong?
Or allowing worlds independence, like Outreach or Northwind?
And by that way of thinking, worlds will not be traded as a condition to ending a war. The way you are suggesting this, the succession wars would/could never end. They would bleed themselves dry, and still send units into combat. Even if it is just using swords and rocks.
Every combat known to mankind will always have people vowing for revenge. Someone has to lose someone to end the conflict.
I do agree there would be something done, even just the demand of those responsible would be there.
And sadly, this is the type of situation that would lead to radical elements in the military as well as those like Loki to use the banned weapons.
It is unlike the LC would be able to pin down the Wolves to deal with them, or worse, attack and lose some many more forces, they are even more vulnerable to attacks.
But then nothing was done to the Arc Royal Cordon when it ceded. Granted the rejoined when Katherine was removed, but that is still something that would have gotten a military response. Katherine knew that would become a nightmare, as she was trying to look like the diplomat to solve issues without the military.
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Requiem
08/12/18 07:06 PM
58.175.193.140
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Yes, individual worlds have been traded as a condition to ending a war, or provided their independence to gain a valuable alliances with third parties (St. Ives , Northwind Highlanders, Wolfs Dragoons).
However when you give away the number of worlds that were transferred to Stone’s Republic or the “Wolf Empire” then you should begin to wonder about the sanity of your leader.
Just remember that an unjust peace will lead to an unjust war (Treaty of Versailles)
As for the use of banned weapons …. no ….. for Vedet would be a garrotte and for Alaric would be a 50 Cal. Sniper Rifle if I had my way … but the writers cannot kill of major characters that easy.
How can you compare a situation during the Civil War (Arc Royal Defence Cordon) with that of 3150 (“Wolf Empire’)? These are two different times and two very different Archons and political / military situations.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/12/18 07:41 PM
66.74.61.223
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The undefended worlds of the LC were about to be swamped by Alaric's forces.
To prevent the core of your nation from becoming a waste land, giving up worlds resistive to your rule should be a no brainer. But what is mine will always be mine mentality will not allow someone to see otherwise.
That is also what gets you beaten badly in war. Knowing you care so much for something, the meer threat will lock your forces into position and allow the enemy to run amok in other areas.
That explains the whole reason for the alt history. To avoid the FC from losing anything.
Kind of sad in a way.
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Requiem
08/13/18 12:24 AM
58.175.193.140
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So from Pax FC to Pax Clans I am not surprised most of the writers are now pro Clan above everything else.
But in the real world – Winston Churchill or Philippe Petan?
It is so easy to just give up but a true leader fighting against insurmountable odds …
Knowing what you care for does not make you weak on the battlefield … it gives you strength when you are surrounded by darkness ….
Locking forces into position ……… again …. No, the last leader who came close to this was Alessandro Steiner and look what happened to him in 3007.
No its kind of sad that the writers again took the easy way out for their characters … with just a little bit more oomph the story could have been way more believable ….
But again the writers want a Clan Empire near Stones Empire so we can have a war between the two … so we will suspend belief and write it this way …. Yay we get another mediocre novel ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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