Requiem
07/25/18 09:21 AM
58.175.193.140
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The Draconis Combine decided to create Battlesats with an armament that included the NL55.
They stated they could produce 20 every three months – thus the ability to create NL55s in large numbers is a reality … for the Draconis Combine ….
and
The 3057 Technical Readout Pg. 38 … stated that …. At present, the Draconis Combine maintains the largest quantity of these …. Achilles Class Dropships…
AS I am not up on all the rules for Construction … etc.
My question is this - Could an Achilles Class Dropship – a dropship that may not operate in the atmosphere – be equipped (retrofitted) with an NL55 thus converting it from a Dropship to a pocket warship?
And, if possible, how long do you believe a retrofit of this size would take?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Cray
07/25/18 05:22 PM
97.101.136.19
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Quote:
My question is this - Could an Achilles Class Dropship – a dropship that may not operate in the atmosphere – be equipped (retrofitted) with an NL55 thus converting it from a Dropship to a pocket warship?
Nope. If you check Tech Manual, the only capital weapons that can be mounted on DropShips are capital missiles. Naval lasers cannot be mounted on them.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Requiem
07/25/18 06:42 PM
58.175.193.140
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Then my follow up questions ares this – what is the difference between a Battlesat and that of a Drop-ship such as an Achilles Class Drop-ship?.
A traditional Drop-ship is allowed into the atmosphere so I could understand why they are not allowed a Naval Laser due to their shear size and mass, however, as both a Battlesat and an Achilles cannot enter the atmosphere – thus they are both permanently in space – Zero “g” - Can this please be explained then?
As putting a naval laser onto an Achilles would be a simple engineering procedure? Linking it to the hull and connecting it to the engine
Could not this rule be needed to be revisited then? – Naval Lasers are allowed on Drop-ships if they are not allowed in atmosphere?
I am thus a little confused as to the underlying rule's thought process ....
Thanks
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
07/25/18 07:05 PM
58.175.193.140
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Addendum: In addition to a Naval Laser could a Capital Missile also be attached to the Hull of an Achilles as in the same way that you can attach a missile to an aerospace fighter?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
07/25/18 09:14 PM
58.175.193.140
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First Draft – In My Opinion as to if a “non-atmospheric” dropship could be retrofitted with a Naval Grade Laser / Gauss.
Does the mass of an object affect its speed in space
Ans (as per Wiki): “As long as we are dealing only with the effects of Gravitational force, the answer is 'No' .The mass of an object doesn't affect it's motion in free space. ... Mass only effects how much effect is required to change an objects velocity, and how much gravity it generates”.
However, in my opinion, retrofitting a Naval Grade Laser upon a “non-atmospheric” dropship should be restricted to its overall energy requirements, its Structural Integrity and Control Components / weapon limits.
If we take an Achilles Class “Dropship” as an example
Safe Thrust of 8 (8x6.5=52%)
Mass of engine = 4,500 tons x 52% = 2,340 tons
So how can we determine if an engine can safely be equipped with a Naval Grade Laser? and at the same time maintain its existing safe thrust?
To determine if the engine could safely utilise a Naval Weapon – divide the mass of the engine by 2
In this case 2,340 / 2 = 1,170 – this is the maximum amount of retrofitted Naval Grade Lasers + Armour that can be safely attached to your “non-atmospheric” dropship.
Thus in this case a NL 55 can be attached (at 1,100 tons + a maximum of 70 tons of additional armour + other equipment?)
Note a “non-atmospheric” dropship cannot go above this safety level without taxing the engine to the point it would explode – thus a rule should be looked at for this in the event too many Naval grade Lasers are attached.
The Structural Integrity of these Craft would also be the same as that of a Jumpship / Warship.
Should Control Components be added equal that of a Jumpship / warship and be factored into the total tonnage allowed when retrofitting a “non-atmospheric” dropship?.
Weapon Limits – Dropships can usually mount 12 – however with retrofitting Naval grade Lasers this is reduced to 9 including the Naval grade Laser.
Strategic Fuel Use – add the total mass of the craft and the new weapon systems = new strategic Fuel Usage.
Will having a Naval Grade Laser maintain its existing safe thrust?
No, when charging a Naval Grade Laser and firing it will reduce its safe thrust by 2
Thus our Achilles’ safe thrust drops from 8 to 6 whilst being online.
As a first Draft your thoughts?
And as for adding One shot Capitol Missiles - something similar to that of aerospace fighters?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
07/25/18 11:15 PM
58.175.193.140
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Therefore I think you can see where I am going with this – John Wayne, They were Expendable – ie. PT Craft of WWII
Squadron would consist of ….
1 Star Lord JumpShip – 6 Dropship Capacity
5 of my new Pt Craft – Naval laser to the Fore with 2 Capital OS Missiles one Port and one Starboard
1 Vengeance Class ‘Dropship’ and 40 fighter screening force
And even as a prototype this should be considered –
it makes tactical and strategically viable attack force from the point of view of the DCMS –
for the company that makes these Naval Lasers it makes for ‘Huge’ profitable windfall –
and how many engineers follow the first rule of engineering …. “If it’s not broken then don’t F____ with it!” …. How many engineers would like to tinker on a project like this
PS – after giving it due consideration – can you design it so that a battery is in between the gun and the engine (tonnage?) so that the energy taken from the engine is used to recharge the gun – therefore no reduction in speed when the gun is utilised (just a recharge time to use the gun again of ? seconds)
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Cray
07/26/18 06:43 PM
67.8.230.40
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Quote:
I am thus a little confused as to the underlying rule's thought process ....
Look at it from the perspective of writing a game where BattleMechs and WarShips are the kings of their respective battlefields. They won't be kings with a few sensible, realistic changes to the rules.
Quote:
As putting a naval laser onto an Achilles would be a simple engineering procedure? Linking it to the hull and connecting it to the engine
Nope, it's not hard and you can definitely do that in your home game. There's a lot of sensible things you could do in your home games. For example, conventional vehicles are unnecessarily nerfed to let 'Mechs have a fighting chance. Reasonably, tanks shouldn't suffer so many crits - they're not the units with all the exposed, complicated joints. And there's no realistic reason they should be banned from using DHS. Frankly, with their smaller surface areas, vehicles should have more armor points per ton, too. I'm sure you could think of other sensible improvements for BT's vehicles.
Speaking of simple game improvements, have you considered the rules descriptions of BT weapons? Most missiles and autocannons - per aerospace ranges and turn lengths - have velocities of many kilometers per second, even tens of kilometers per second. BattleMechs and tanks shouldn't be fighting on maps only a few hundred meters across. Their autocannons and missiles would have intercontinental ranges. Someone with an AC/5 should be able to scribble their name on the moon, not to mention endangering low-orbiting fighters and DropShips.
But is that reasonable for BattleTech's technology? The lowest ebb in the Succession Wars gave the Houses technology like the 24th Century, the 2300s. Given our advances today, wouldn't 2300s technology reasonably involve nanite swarms and maybe black hole cannons, rather than giant mecha and tanks fighting at 1940s ranges?
Point being: BattleTech makes a lot of conceits about being a future with giant, stompy robots. It takes cheese like "Mecha are practical" and "WarShips are cool" and sometimes warps the rules to keep them kings of their battlefields where players can have them brawl back and forth. Introducing a little bit of realism can quickly escalate to "poof, you're dead!" far future technology rather than fights between giant, stompy robots.
Quote:
Then my follow up questions ares this – what is the difference between a Battlesat and that of a Drop-ship such as an Achilles Class Drop-ship?.
The BattleSat is a space station. The Achilles is a DropShip. Different construction and movement rules.
Quote:
A traditional Drop-ship is allowed into the atmosphere so I could understand why they are not allowed a Naval Laser due to their shear size and mass
There are many atmosphere-capable DropShips much larger than naval lasers.
Quote:
, however, as both a Battlesat and an Achilles cannot enter the atmosphere – thus they are both permanently in space – Zero “g” - Can this please be explained then?
The point of the construction rules was to create unique and different vehicle classes. Capital-armed DropShips sort of moot the point of WarShips. Meanwhile, space stations are such easy target practice, especially for bearings-only capital missile shots and high speed closing engagements, that they're not endangering anything by carrying capital weapons. Capital weapons are almost wasted on space stations.
Quote:
Addendum: In addition to a Naval Laser could a Capital Missile also be attached to the Hull of an Achilles as in the same way that you can attach a missile to an aerospace fighter?
There are no hard point rules for DropShips. The few DropShips with bomb bay options don't use hard points. You'd have to hand wave hull-mounted missiles for your home game.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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Retry
07/26/18 07:06 PM
174.70.184.145
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Quote:
Quote:
, however, as both a Battlesat and an Achilles cannot enter the atmosphere – thus they are both permanently in space – Zero “g” - Can this please be explained then?
The point of the construction rules was to create unique and different vehicle classes. Capital-armed DropShips sort of moot the point of WarShips. Meanwhile, space stations are such easy target practice, especially for bearings-only capital missile shots and high speed closing engagements, that they're not endangering anything by carrying capital weapons. Capital weapons are almost wasted on space stations.
Isn't that problem solved rather easily by a gratuitous complement of AMS?
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Requiem
07/26/18 08:56 PM
58.175.193.140
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In House Creation: NOT CONNON: The Achilles PT Class Naval Vessel
The Achilles Class was originally designed specifically to engage targets in space and is capable of out-manoeuvring most heavy fighters and Dropships.
With the introduction of Clan Warships into the Inner Sphere the DCMS recognised an immediate need for a response to these Warships.
With the DCMS maintaining the largest quantity of these Achilles vessels, the decision was made to investigate if they could be retrofitted with Naval Grade Weapon Systems, as an interim weapon system, until their own Naval Fleet could be utilized against this new threat.
The Final Prototype was very promising, which, included a NL55 to the fore and with hard points established on the Starboard and port of the Vessel allowed each side of the vessel to be outfitted with either two Barracuda or two White Shark or two Killer Whale or one Kraken Capital Missile one shot missile(s) on each side. It also required reducing the overall armament complement of the vessel due to computers firing control computers.
The only limitation being these missiles, and by extension the PT Vessel itself, were now vulnerable due to these exposed weapons receiving a direct hit.
The Vehicle also required two large batteries, placed with the bay 2 fighter compartment, thus allowing for the NL55 to be utilized continually and without taxing the engine and reducing the speed of the vehicle whilst within a battle.
PT Class Naval Vessel – Upgraded Version
Type: Military Aerodyne
Introduced: 3052
Use: Assault Patrol “Torpedo” Vessel
Mass: 5,800 tons
Tech: Star League
Dimensions: (Unequipped with Missiles)
Length: 127 meters
Width: 36.2 meters
Height: 23 meters
Fuel: 300 tons (1,800)
Tons/Burn-day: 1.84
Safe Thrust: 5
Maximum Thrust: 8
Heat Sinks: 80 (160)
Structural Integrity: 17
Armour:
Fore: 29
Sides: 26
Aft: 19
Weapons:
Nose NL55
LW 3 ERPPC
LW 3 LRM-20 with Artemis
LW (R) ERPPC
LW (R) 6 Md Pulse Lasers
RW 3 ERPPC
RW 3 LRM-20 with Artemis
RW (R) ERPPC
RW (R) 6 Md Pulse Lasers
16 tons of LRM ammo
Optional Weapons attached to Hard Points: OS Missiles
Four Barracuda Missiles; or
Four White Shark Missiles; or
Four Killer Whale Missiles; or
Two Kraken Capital Missiles
Cargo: 122 tons
Bay 1: Small Craft 2 (1 Door)
Bay 2: Battery (1 Door)
Bay 3: Cargo/ Marines (1 platoon)
Escape Pods: 6
Life Boats: 0
Crew: 30
Notes: May Not Operate in Atmosphere
Thoughts?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
07/27/18 07:04 AM
58.175.193.140
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I had quite forgotten about the Bug-Eye …. Pg 124 and 125 Technical Readout 2750 ….Mass: 6,100 tons and contains a jump-drive …..
So as per the statement in for a penny in for a pound, whilst I sit here listening to Wagner – Kill the Rabbit, Kill the Rabbit ……
So if we say the DCMS found the SLS Mata Hari and have since been able to reverse engineer most its advance equipment then decided to take the Achilles Project one further step forward …
Making it Jump Capable;
The ability to mimic other jumpships; (Clan Jumpships?)
Advanced computer, optical and electronic systems;
A spy craft with radar absorbing properties; and
Put the OS missiles behind armour
Oh, what joy it would be to add these two vehicles together ….
Submarines any-one......!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (07/27/18 05:17 PM)
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ghostrider
08/11/18 12:34 AM
66.74.61.223
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Had a thought on why they don't allow capital energy weapons on dropships..
Some players would mount them on the dropships and do orbital bombardments on enemy positions.
Take out forts and military bases, while raiding the rest of the planet. Spheroids dropping mechs with a naval energy weapons fires the weapon before dropping the mechs.
On top of this, if dropships could mount them, then warships would be almost useless as the 'boogie man' of spacecraft.
Have a dozen avengers or some such sitting near jump points. Ship jumps in. Naval weapons take out enemy invasion before they get far away from the ship. No ground battle, no game.
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Requiem
08/11/18 02:09 AM
58.175.193.140
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On the whole I am of the opinion (if there were rules that allowed for retrofitting Dropships with Naval Grade Weapons) that a spheroid Dropship cannot be out-fitted with naval weapons unless you also consider the following changes to their performance ….
First, on the whole, they would need to give up their ability to operate within the atmosphere as this is due to two principles ….
That of ‘pin point loading’ for the smaller spheroid class dropships - as you would only be allowed one naval grade weapon –consider a stiletto shoe when you push all you weight through the heel’s stiletto which can cause damage to whatever is beneath it (though this is dependent upon the mass of the person that is above the stiletto) or a normal satellite rocket all the thrust goes through the vertical plane – You would thus need to place the engine directly underneath the Naval weapon (much the same as a Fortress Class Warship and its Artillery Weapon) to enable the craft to have enough thrust to get it from the surface of a planet to space.
This would require such a major retrofit as to require an entirely new Dropship to be manufactured.
Second, If you place the Naval Weapon into the side of the ship you would also need a second weapon (of the same Class) too off-set the original weapon’s mass and size being directly opposite the first weapon. Consider loading a cargo vessel with cargo containers – too many on one side and you will flip the ship you need equal weight on both port and starboard side to keep the boat floating on an level plane / even keel (this would also be the same for a Dropship) - thus you would need to go to a Mammoth dropship as this is the only dropship, in my opinion, that could have the engines to even consider doing a lift off from the surface of the planet to space with two naval grade energy weapons.
Third, due to the energy requirements of a Naval grade energy weapon for most smaller Dropships you wold only be able to have one weapon operational at any given time due to their energy requirements during battle for both the thrust and the weapon itself.
Thus on the whole all spheroids would, in my opinion, become limited to space only if you put single naval grade weapon on them.
Also of consideration, due to the size, weight and energy requirements of the naval grade weapon I also believe the Dropships would have to give up all other transport capabilities – thus no ‘Mechs and no aerospace fighters and only a small Cargo size.
This is why I chose an Achilles – Fast – May not operate in atmosphere - From its design specs it appears that it wold be easy to retrofit - In my opinion it wold make an excellent PT Craft from which you could easily retrofit with a single naval weapon and with the addition of had points OS capital missiles could also be attached.
Other Craft that I would consider for a PF Craft – though again this would turn them into non atmospheric 'dropships' are the Avenger or the Gazelle. - though in comparison their weapons would not be of the same size as that of the Achilles.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/11/18 11:32 AM
66.74.61.223
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Any ship would require a major refit for the weapons alone.
I am pretty sure the companies doing so, would distribute the weight evenly to all landing gear. None of the dropships in existence had had that problem. Not even trials. Granted, it is possible that it could happen, though not thought off, or just not printed.
To my knowledge, the ship has to be weapons facing down for an orbital bombardment. That means the tail for warships. Not sure about a dropship though. It may have to be in an orbit that requires thrust to keep it up. This is why I suggested the spheroid. They would always have the tail down when approaching a planet.
The balance thing is like mechs. If the planners know that only one weapon will be on one side, they move things to the other to balance out the craft.
The 35 ton panther would be a great example. as the ppc is 1/5 of the total weight of the mech. And it jumps.
I agree the Achilles would make a great craft for this type of work, as the speed would allow you to get into range fast enough to do some damage.
Another craft you might want to look at is the pocket warship Excalibur.
The refit guts the vessel's interior to mount eight AR-10 Capital Missile Launchers and two Kraken-T launchers, fed by an impressive 6,000 tons of capital
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tmr01750195
08/11/18 01:21 PM
76.121.197.44
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Hello all,
Going back to the original post:
1. What book was the BattleSat detailed in?
2. "My question is this - Could an Achilles Class Dropship – a dropship that may not operate in the atmosphere – be equipped (retrofitted) with an NL55 thus converting it from a Dropship to a pocket warship?"
Cray's answer of only being able to use Capital Missiles under Catalyst Game Labs BT on DropShips appears to be inline with FASA AT2 and FanPro/WZGames AT2 Revised.
Using FASA BattleSpace p. 68 has the following statement for DropShip construction: "Choose any weapons from the appropriate section of the Master Weapons Table, pp. 69-71." The Master Weapons Table ob p. 69 is annotated as Inner Sphere, p. 70 is Clan, and p. 71 is the list of Capital Weapons.
I think using BattleSpace a designer can legally use any Capital Weapon on DropShips unless otherwise nixed by a game's referee and/or players.
Tom Rux
Edited by tmr01750195 (08/11/18 01:32 PM)
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Requiem
08/11/18 05:06 PM
58.175.193.140
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To answer Tom Rux’s questions first,
1. Battlesat can be found in the 3057 Technical Readout – Dropships, Jumpships and Warships – under System Defence Stations Pg. 204 -205
2. As per the current rules retrofitting a dropship is not allowed – in house if your referee allows it is another matter entirely.
Though in my opinion once the Clans invade with warships from a military perspective you need to create a way of dealing with them asap as they have just become the biggest target on battlefield that needs to neutralized. Especially after the First Wave Incident at Turtle Bay – in which shows that the Clans do have an inclination towards orbital bombardment.
Therefore at this stage as a General on the battlefield your options become limited to 1. Aerospace attack with Nuclear Missiles; 2. Aerospace attack (Nuclear Bomb) Kamikaze attack if you are DC; 3. start retrofitting your existing dropship fleet with Naval Grade Weapons (as a stop gap measure before you can get your own pocket warships / full warship fleet online for a Naval War); 4. The Big-Wing Aerospace attack group using Vengeance Carriers and 80 to 120 aerospace fighters to pound the warships into scrap with bruit force alone.
Though I can only say the IS just got lucky the Clans never used them to their fullest during the invasion – if they had the war would have had a vastly different ending.
And on a personal note I am upset the writing of the invasion was of such limited imagination, with a little more thought the designers of the game could have opened the dimensions of the game to new heights if only they had given it a little more thought (or even cracked open a history book to WWII for inspiration).
Ghostrider in response to your post,
In levelling out either side of a dropship is not as easy as it sounds when you consider the smallest energy based Capital Weapon is 700 tons (NL35) to the Largest at 3,000 (Heavy NPPC) at these sizes it is not just a question of shifting the cargo around to get ship equilibrium.
For a spheroid Dropship you would have to rip a major hole in the side just to place it within the ship – and how many decks would you have to cut through and how many vital cables / air reclamation pipes etc would you have to move and how many rooms would you lose in inserting it – the size and scope of such a task would be incredibly difficult when you compare it to an Achilles retrofit .
This is why I looked at the Achilles – you could just create a bracket under the nose or integrate into the nose of the dropship and the establishment of hard-points for OS Capital Missiles could easily to be placed upon any of the rear compartments (as it looks like a box?).
As the Achilles is easier – thus quicker – you could thus mass produce these PTs to ensure multiple squadrons are activated for deployment in a very short time when comparing it to attempting a spheroid PT squadron.
As for facing down for an orbital bombardment, no, in space there is no up / down you can just rotate you craft through a 360 degree plane and engaging your weapons as you roll if you want – just align your heaviest naval energy weapon to the target on the ground and fire at will.
It is only Tail First when a dropship is entering the atmosphere for a ground landing.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/11/18 05:56 PM
66.74.61.223
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Facing down in this case is tail towards planet. I guess I made the mistake of thinking that was given.
It is only Tail First when a dropship is entering the atmosphere for a ground landing.
This statement is incorrect. Spheroids dropping mechs have to have the chutes towards the planet if you want the mechs to live. I mean it is possible to shot them out into space, but not advised.
And the dropship does not have to land after doing so. They could in fact, head back and grab another load of mechs.
As for the invasion of the clans, it was the writers that did not allow the warships to remain in a position like that. The part where the wolves bid away their warships was followed by the others.
I would think the developers knew there was no real way the IS could fight them at that time. And with the IS getting some warships going, the clans did not seem to bring theirs back. Granted the only warship battles I heard of was during the FC civil war. I think that wasn't all, but I don't remember seeing any others before that.
Well on second thinking, they did have warship combat when the IS forces were retracing the exodus path. The nova cats/smoke jaguars had one.
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Requiem
08/11/18 07:43 PM
58.175.193.140
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The use of a Drop Pod, where a Battlemech, can be dropped from orbit to the surface of the planet.
Or using specialized jump packs allowing them to exit a stationary (but airborne) Dropship and control their descent to the ground?
The wiki describes the pods as follows “The Drop Pod itself consists of an ablative and ceramic shell (the 'pod') that allows the unit to enter the atmosphere intact. The entire system consists of the pod, jets, parachutes, and flight computers (that enable the unit to land relatively close to the drop zone) and a cocoon of spun foam and a ceramic structure. At a pre-timed position, the pod explodes into five sections (with the possible benefit of distracting ground-based sensors), freeing the unit. The cocoon then melts away in the remaining heat. Once free of the effects of the Drop Pod, the BattleMech relies on jump jets, a jump pack, and/or specialized parachutes to land safely on the ground”.
QUOTE: As for the invasion of the clans, it was the writers that did not allow the warships to remain in a position like that. The part where the wolves bid away their warships was followed by the others.
This is the difference between a hack and reasonable writer … this action was a direct result of the Turtle Bay incident … so, how did the military of the IS know that the Clans were not going to utilize these vessels in a combat role ….
1. A hunting dog and an Ouija board;
2. The Clans directly told the militaries of the IS and they believed them;
3. Comstar acting as an intermediary informed the IS; (and how many questions would this lead to)
4. They were all sent back into the Deep Periphery;
5. They had to remain at the Zenith / Nadir Jump point and were not allowed in system during an invasion;
Because if they did / didn’t know and they accepted the information as a given would lead to repercussions by the military. Remember how you use you warships is a form of language in itself – (13 day Cuban Missile Crisis – Kennedy Vs. Khrushchev and Castro) – and because this was never explained and just taken as a given shows how a hack writes a book – in a more real setting you would have had an immediate and deadly repercussion by all the military of the IS upon the Clans Warships.
No Ifs ... No buts … No Maybees … there would have been a full and complete retaliatory strike upon their warships
QUOTE: I would think the developers knew there was no real way the IS could fight them at that time.
And my Big Wing fighter attack groups (RACT) and PTs hold no validity in reality … they did in WWII … why not here? Lack of imagination; lack of understanding historical battle-field doctrine or just hack writing?
It all comes down to what you have available at the time to retaliate with ….
Yes they did have Vengeance Class Dropships; Yes they did have vast Aerospace fighter groups; Yes they did have Nukes (though I am still hate having them in the game at all); Yes they did have Naval Lasers and they did have the capability of creating a Capital Missile and a OS Capital Missile Launcher in 3051 and yes they could retrofit a Dropship to carry them (despite what the rules say they can and cant do)
So the point is what?
I hold to my statement that I believe it to be very poor writing and plot development to the point I consider the entire invasion as idiotic.
Thus staring the games decline to mediocrity. (where no game store will hold Battletech stock for me and I have to get everything online)
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (08/11/18 07:55 PM)
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ghostrider
08/11/18 10:44 PM
66.74.61.223
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this action was a direct result of the Turtle Bay incident.
Stop and think for a moment. Who decided the Turtle Bay incident would occur to begin with?
The writers. They used it as a way to further the story by getting people upset with the Smoke Jaguars, and cheering the Wolves for bidding them away. It was planned out for the story line. Basically an outline of what is in the future.
This isn't like a group of gamers sitting around and making up a story as the game progresses. This is all planned out on how it goes.
No Ifs ... No buts … No Maybees … there would have been a full and complete retaliatory strike upon their warships.
Again with supposition of numbers that aren't there. Also the lack of understanding, you can not just pull units from other places and not suffer issues. Even if the main rulers would not take advantage, those lesser ones will. The FRR ronin fight tells you that. The Sky rebellion. More then a few others as well.
And that isn't talking about finding them, as comstar was not allowing that information thru, and they did move them around. So you might find them, or you might waste limited resources searching the entire invasion corridors without ever running into them.
how did the military of the IS know that the Clans were not going to utilize these vessels in a combat role.
Interesting that this comes up, yet during the discussion and even here the statements going on, suggest the IS knows everything about the clans and where everything is, but yet this isn't known? Some warships were pulled out of the IS. They novels and history books say that. They were patrolling the exodus route.
It all comes down to what you have available at the time to retaliate with.
I love that one. Contradicting yourself with in a few lines of text.
No Ifs ... No buts … No Maybees … there would have been a full and complete retaliatory strike upon their warships.
Now where is the no ifs, buts or maybe in the retaliate statement?
It is sounding like this attacking the writers comes from the game store owners not wanting to carry the line. Hate to break your bubble, but there were alot of stores that didn't carry it when it was very popular in the 80's/90's.
I think the game started the decline when they came out with the 2750 books, as the star league tech wasn't that great.
And when the put out a book that states it will be obsolete in a few months when the next set is due out.
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Requiem
08/12/18 12:34 AM
58.175.193.140
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Cannon History
Kurita escapes the prison with the aid of Yakuza
Incensed The Smoke Jaguars use a warship’s orbital bombardment upon Turtle Bay
Outraged by the use a WMD upon civilians the wolves declare to all the other Clans they will bid away all their warships from now on ….
So how does Hanse Davion / Theodore Kurita / Melissa Steiner Davion / Haakon Magnusson know this? How do they know that Warships will no longer be used for offensive capabilities – and can inform their military accordingly - and even if they do each Clan has an autonomous Command Structure (As per the Wolfs Dragoons debriefing). Thus even if one Clan informs them they won’t use them, how do you know this means that all of them will not use them?
All they know at this point in time is that a Clan’s warship turned its weapon’s upon an unarmed city – an orbital bombardment? How do they know they won’t do it again and again?
Politically and militarily what message does this send to the Leaders of the Inner Sphere?
If you step out of line we will do this to you?
So what is your response back to them?
How do you show strength and defiance (as this is your only next real step)?
You must begin counteroffensive actions against their warships.
The story line as given is about as believable as putting in a cat flap for an elephant house!
And again with the supposition of no resources – there are no records to prove it.
But that doesn’t even matter if you use nukes at this stage (much as I hate them) they could well have been used at this stage – so a limited number of fighter craft armed with two 5KT warheads each then what? (so the ide of limited resources stopping a retaliatory strike goes right out of the window)
However, back on track, militarily and politically at this stage there must be a retaliatory strike – to consider otherwise is to leave the world of reality.
And yet I have contradicted myself … sorry no …a redistribution of available forces upon the assumption that someone might to this or that is not how you conduct a war.
What is your main threat deal with this then once it is dealt with you can then return and deal with minor issues.
QUOTE: the IS knows everything about the clans and where everything is.
Errrr … No …. What is known is what our operatives on the ground can get us … unit numbers … unit locations … timely information regarding re-supply …. Who is in command … which unit hey belong to …. Whatever our commando units can obtain etc.
So how does a decision from the Khan of the Wolves get to the leaders of the Inner Sphere?
They just broadcast it in the hope that it will be believed?
And how can you even trust that this decision be honoured by all the clans … as if a trial of position is enacted will the new Khan abide by the decision of the old Khan as to the use of an orbital bombardment? (again knowledge of this is supplied by Wolfs Dragoons)
No answer?
What a dangerous policy to follow … What good does it do to be scared of the minor threats and keep IS forces within their allotted bases on the border if they do not deal with most dangerous threat right in front of each Great Houses Military forces …
Lions for Lambs? … no military doctrine / history as well as political doctrine / history would allow a leader to just sit on their hands in this situation and do nothing while the Clans have the ability to use an orbital bombardment at any time during the war for any reason …
If the Clans decide not to use Warships – then they must be removed from the Inner Sphere.
If not then the forces of the Inner Sphere must take them out.
This is the only logical militarily as well as political course of action at this stage.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/12/18 01:40 AM
66.74.61.223
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That may be why comstar started building the warship engines for the IS, though they had stalled the FC ones for the Fox corvette. To help remove the clan warships.
But with that, I do not recall any battles between the clan warships and comstars, even after comstar fought against the clans. It is possible when they invaded clanspace, it happened, and I didn't read it, but comstar had the warships to remove the clans from the IS. Well atleast the ones here. They could always bring up more.
And the books state why the IS didn't just mass drop units onto clan worlds. But canon history doesn't fit your universe, so it has to be wrong. The books said the IS had no idea where the clan warships were at, so any sort of counter offensive would be difficult at best. The idea of losing the soldiers and units to even clan dropships was a real threat. They could not leave front line worlds underdefended, and trying to blindly strike out wasn't an option.
The argument of what was available is where this all start going wrong. The canon writers made it so they didn't have the resources you want the IS to have. You said you didn't need to ask them directly, but so far the entire argument on your side comes down to saying they had more then they did. There is no real foundation to stand on with that, as everything in the game suggests they did not have the resources to do as you want.
And the argument of how few forces the clans had in the IS, and how the IS could overwhelm them goes to not knowing things at the time.
As it may not be printed, it is possible someone (Phelan) could have gotten word to someone he knew to relay that message. Hell, he might have even told the one FRR planetary leader that they stopped the warship use.
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ghostrider
08/12/18 01:46 AM
66.74.61.223
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So the CC could have waved their magic wand and removed FS forces from their nation? I mean no one would stand for that. Oh wait. There were a few examples of having attacks on nations and not be retaliated back. Use your history lessens from both World wars. More then a few got bombed and couldn't do anything about it. Especially when they didn't have aircraft to stop it, and being land locked meant no ships. Anti air would work to a point. But then this is more the try to get support for the rewrite, as canon doesn't fit your view.
The entire IS has history that by your statements could never have peace. ALL sides used nukes to take out units and worlds on all fronts. So there would be no way to forgive that. So the SW's would not have stopped more then it took time to restock the war machine.
As one of the quotes go, only the living cry out for vengeance.
Check out sub capital lasers. They do fit on dropships, though were introduced by WOB. I don't see a reason they couldn't be bumped up in time.
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Requiem
08/12/18 03:05 AM
58.175.193.140
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How does it help the FC / FRR / DC ‘now’ if it will take another five years to complete a single warship for the Home fleet?
As it is not about what ‘canon’ writing – it is about what is a ‘believable’ progression when writing a story as the Clans actions will have consequences – A leads to B which leads to C not A goes straight to D and we will just ignore all he middle stuff as we just don’t want that to happen at all.
QUOTE: But canon history doesn't fit your universe, so it has to be wrong.
I cannot believe the story as written, the holes in it are big enough to walk an assault class ‘Mech through them!
To those who believe fine … but I cannot suspend reality to believe such a badly written scenario.
QUOTE: … and trying to blindly strike out wasn't an option.
If Hanse Davion could direct the 4th Succession War upon multiple fronts how can it be that his intelligence apparatus is so reduced in their capabilities during the Clan Invasion when the Front line is only (approximately) one tenth the size?
Resource management – there is no evidence? Only assumptions …..
So how does the Inner Sphere of 3050 with little to nil resources go to the Inner Sphere of 3055 / 3058 / 3060 Technical Readouts ability in such a short period of time if there are no resources whatsoever back in 3050 to build upon?
QUOTE: And the argument of how few forces the clans had in the IS, and how the IS could overwhelm them goes to not knowing things at the time.
Question, how many jumpships does each clan have? Target these first and how effective is the Clan Military then? (and yet another plot hole)
Phelan? … he is a bondsman of Clan Wolf and has been indoctrinated into their Cult, so how does he go about sending a message - and would anyone believe him even if they did get a message from him?
Levity? …. And the point is …. what?
Using Nukes is one way forward (I hate to admit it) but it is not the only way forward – once utilized against Clan Warships and their ejection from the Inner Sphere how quick would they be in returning as do we now have the Iron Curtin Scenario of 1950's onwards M.A.D. if both sides continue with the use of Nuclear Weapons.
I cannot believe in the canon story it is ludicrous in the extreme … all the way from the Initial Invasion forward to 3150 … the only sensible course action would be to rewrite it all!
Maybe then the game’s products and miniatures would return to the game stores shelves.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/12/18 12:26 PM
66.74.61.223
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The 5 year delay is part of the process. It took the FS decades to remove the DC from its territories in the 1st war. And all militaries need to hold off until they get what is needed to counterstrike. Defensive measures being the main thing you can not stop. It took the U.S. how long to get into the real war in WWII? Why not attack right afterwards? Lose even more of the little you have left by not knowing where the enemy was? And that would include Hawaii and even parts of the west coast, while losing what ships you have left.
I have yet to see any sci fi story not have holes in it. Especially ones based on games. Even the alt histories have a few holes in them.
If Hanse Davion could direct the 4th Succession War upon multiple fronts how can it be that his intelligence apparatus is so reduced in their capabilities during the Clan Invasion when the Front line is only (approximately) one tenth the size?
Really? Hanse had alot more knowledge of what was going on where, as well as one side of the conflict well planned out. The DC side was the only thing that had some unknows in it. And he knew his forces could take on even amounts of a known quantity of the enemy. Fighting the clans, they had NO knowledge of how many forces they had available to them. And you know one on one with the clans is NOT going to work.
So sending out a force of three RCTs to a world, only to find out it is the main staging area for the next set of attacks, and they have 5 galaxies there. So your elites die from this. The BS of them knowing where the enemy is at doesn't work.
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ghostrider
08/12/18 12:42 PM
66.74.61.223
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So how does the Inner Sphere of 3050 with little to nil resources go to the Inner Sphere of 3055 / 3058 / 3060 Technical Readouts ability in such a short period of time if there are no resources whatsoever back in 3050 to build upon?
First. There is no where it says there were no resources. It is said they didn't have the resources for what you propose.
Second, the facilities as well as the research to build them was not yet complete at the time. As increasing war production takes time, it may well be the 5 years in the future before you have the 2 dozen jumpships as well as dropships to move the amount of troops needed. The IS was not prepared for the clan attacks. They were set up for IS attacks.
Question, how many jumpships does each clan have? Target these first and how effective is the Clan Military then? (and yet another plot hole)
no hard numbers. They say what each clan had for the invasion forces, but not how many they had entirely.
Now. You start destroying jumpships, and you set off things that you don't want. The clans did not destroy yours, so starting that cycle would also get other nations in the IS started on it. And with taking out the jumpships, what is to prevent the clans from bringing in more warships? Not only to protect their ships, which also means more fighters coming in, but to carry the dropships themselves? No intel available to the IS on those numbers.
Also such attacks may well cause them to give up their honor fights, and just start bombing everything military, while dropping galaxies on worlds. The IS doesn't know how many forces the clans have. For all the Dragoons knew, they were building from the moment they left for their mission into the IS.
Simply sending a message along Kell Hounds information net to say anything. Phelan was not brainwashed so much as agreed with Ulric that the crusaders needed to be stopped. Given his troubled history with government officials, the military approach appealed to him. But not being able to send it would mean your commandos wouldn't be able to. So plot hole there for the alt. Not many, would have access to a black box, and to be honest, they would destroy them to avoid them falling into the hands of the clans. As done in history.
But this is far from the Achilles subject. Again. Check out the sub capital weapons. Karagin had used them on one of their designs, and posted it. The time frame is the issue, though as I said. No reason why there could not have been a research facility the League left behind that was working on it, and couldn't finish it before the civil war. Hence, the houses got ahold of it, moving up the intro date for it. And making it something the WOB didn't have a monopoly on.
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Requiem
08/12/18 05:53 PM
58.175.193.140
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An Intelligence Organisation during war conditions …
Initially you have many unknowns;
Over time you build multiple channels of information gathering processes from – insurgents upon captured worlds gathering and transmitting information (including pictures of people/ number of forces on the world etc) – the military unit that engaged the Clan Forces (personal observations and computer battle ROMs from ‘Mechs etc.) – Commando raids – captured clan personnel (now Bondsman of the FC) and captured data cores etc. – Photographic evidence (long range pictures of the Clan Fleet);
In addition information operatives are imbedded upon all worlds – they gather and transmit information
This information is then given to the data crunchers and historical analysts (warships from the Star League) – Jumpship Types (the number of Dropships on each) – Fining out / estimating cargo for each Dropship type – all this information is crunched and this gives you an estimation of available forces;
This is then refined as time / information gathered – and is then refined even further when Wolfs Dragoons decide to assist the Inner Sphere and provide massive amounts of information upon the Clans from Historical, Military, How they conduct War and use their Trials etc. Clan society traits including their Stratification of Society, cultural traits etc.
At the same time Psi-Ops and other military intelligence organisations begin to paint a picture of the enemy and they supply information.
All of which is collated into a final reports based upon all of this massive data
And as time increases many of the unknowns are reduced.
So after one to two years there may still be unknowns – but, however I would say not that many (but again we are back to assumptions as the books / technical manuals etc failed in providing a document that shows how over time each state gathered and began to understand the enemy.
Also with the re-establishment of the Star League FC / FRR / DC begin to share information – again reducing many of the unknowns.
And, again mass information is transmitted via the Black Boxes from the men and women on the ground.
All of this will give Hanse a very good picture over time as to what is out there and where it is – thus counter attacks upon rear worlds and in the Periphery and the Deep Periphery do become a reality.
Also mass commando raids / assassinations / kidnapping of non-warriors are a reality upon any captured world as the Clans do not have a dedicated security force.
All of these factors were never considered in the Canon Writing – this is why so many people believe the entire writing is laughable.
Going from a 3050 to 3060 technology base requires a massive industry base at 3050 from which to build upon to get you to 3060 – again semantics and no proof.
As for no hard numbers of Clan Jumpships – have a look at each clans wiki notes as to their invasions – each clan’s number of Battlemechs, Elementals, Aerospace, Dropships, Jumpships and Warships are a given.
The Clans consisted of:-
Clan Wolf – 807 Battlemechs; 1610 elementals; 582 fighters; 2 warships; 82 jumpships; 242 dropships
Jade Falcon – 972 Battlemechs; 2235 elementals; 584 fighters; 20 warships; 12 jumpships; 140 dropships
Ghost Bears 12 Clusters (60 Trinaries) 2 Warships; 27 Jumpships
Smoke Jaguars 8 Clusters (40 Trinaries) 4 Warships; 38 Jumpships
Steel Vipers 7 Clusters (35 Trinaries) 1 Warship; 13 Jumpships
Nova Cats 9 Clusters (45 Trinaries) 14 Warships; 23 Jumpships
Once you start with an anti-clan unit in the Deep Periphery / Periphery
Then combine it with Big Wing assault groups you begin disrupting their supply routes – supply numbers etc
It takes 5 months to travel from the Clan Home Wolds to the Inner Sphere – how quick could they adapt?
Again we don’t know because there are no hard numbers only speculations upon what forces exactly each Clan has remaining within the Clan Home Worlds.
However, we do know if each Clan divert too many forces from the Clan Home Worlds to the Inner Sphere they then open themselves for a Trial of Possession.
If the Clans drop their Honour and start dropping Galaxies – the Inner Sphere will retaliate by dropping Nukes and again we are back to a Jihad situation.
So again the game is very poorly written to enable any creative changes – Thus it is up to each individual gaming group to decide how they want their universe to proceed forward.
As long as it sounds plausible and can be backed up with a degree of probability in my opinion run with it – as long as you are happy with your game, run with it.
Phelan – Kell Hounds information Net – HPG Message via Comstar?
My Commandoes have Black Boxes so no problem there – just bypass Comstar entirely …no plot hole
Again post Interdiction upon FS during 4SW / Post Operation Scourge – these would have been made in mass numbers to think otherwise is ludicrous (another plot hole).
As for my Achillies project – you need to understand R&D during a war and how this would affect producing new weapon systems especially when considering it is just a retrofit – as this is for my Alt history the group has allowed them in early – any other group can make up their own mind as to when they can come in as well as when a version 2 or even version 3 could be considered.
So again semantics rule the day – just allow each group to make up their own rules as to introduction – just let them have fun in their own universe – Cannon doesn’t have to adhered to every game – Cannon should only be considered as a guide not the rule.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/12/18 07:20 PM
66.74.61.223
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So with Comstar blocking intel reports, the information magically gets transmitted by telepathy?
There would be little, if any, means to get the information out, even if ROM missed that cell or person. The shadow war may have ended, but indentifying agents never ends.
Ok. We are talking canon story line on why they didn't go on the massive offensive. Drop the garbage of the commando raids, black boxes and things like that. If you want to continue using it, talk to the developers that have those numbers. They know what was where and how much. Otherwise, there is no basis to your argument on what should/could be done. The black box idea is speculating they mass produced them, which doesn't seem likely. And even with that, teaching all how they work, as well as handing them out to all agents means a double agent will get a working sample to their real bosses. Something the limits exactly who even knows about them.
The numbers of forces listed is what the invaders brought with them. What is so hard to understand that. It is not a full listing of what the clans have. And even with that, how does the IS know what they do have? Oh yeah. They don't know the clans would use orbital bombardments, but they know exactly all forces available, even those still on the clan worlds.
Think and use reality logic here. Not contreived and wishful thinking to try and twist things to suit your need.
When during the entire time of the clan invasion did the IS use nukes? It was not even considered. Stop putting in things that aren't there. It does say the IS would do as they have done in the succession wars before hand, and wait a while before trying to retake the worlds.
Using unknown information to say the writers did this or that wrong, then try and make is sound like the alt is the only way to go is what has been done for a while here, and it's time to call that out. If you don't have the numbers, then don't put any in. Supposition is where your ideas fall apart saying the writers screwed up. I know they did on a few things, as the changed the rules to allow new enemies to be bad guys. But so far, almost everything you have said about the story line uses information that isn't there. If you are going to present alt time line, then stop saying the canon one is screwed up.
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Requiem
08/12/18 11:33 PM
58.175.193.140
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Understanding human nature (psychology), tactics, history, sociology as well as understanding the major characters involved as well as the TO&E of all militaries involved does provide an insight as to what each player is capable of …
First let us consider
The FS has undergone an Interdiction by Comstars own manufacture and the FC is involved in a covert war with them – How, as the leader of a vast empire, do you mitigate Comstars power over your realm? You Have the technology, the ability and the time to manufacture vast quantities of boxes – This is simple mitigation of risk theory used in OH&S – to say otherwise is ludicrous.
Even in todays military we have advanced recon (special services) units – to say they are not also utilised in the future is again ludicrous.
WWII, The Cuban Missile Crisis as well as others have proven that when pushed into a corner a leader of state will look at utilising these awful weapons of mass destruction. Have you read Castro’s communicates to Khrushchev during this period they make for a frightening conversation?
Basic Strategy – in which the Canon story completely ignored – when a frontal assault does not work consider using flanking manoeuvres / attacking the rear / attacking supply a convoy – these tactics have been described in battle texts since writing was invented.
There is no written proof as to the limited number of Dropships / Jumpships / Aerospace Fighters etc that would stop the formation of either my Big-Wings or Fenrir groups. If you want to check some-ones memory from 30 years ago go for it … but I am sticking to what I know about tactics when faced with a superior force.
The clan mentality form psychological standpoint – arrogance and hedonism are not a good starting point … especially when you consider their history on how they were formed and how they currently live…
What should have been allowed into the game – Sniper Anti Clan Rifles as well as retrofitted Dropships etc.
The Japanese mentality as to what should have occurred post Turtle Bay a reprisal attack (loss of face and honour)
The requirement of removing warships from the board asap from an IS standpoint
Do I need to go on and on …. The cannon writing is woefully ignorant as to the possibilities as well as to the requirements a war lord of Davion or Kurita are capable of doing … they would go straight for the neck …
It lacks all reality.
Yes there is supposition on my part but I still affirm that I am closer to how the war should have progressed than that of the original Cannon writers.
The Cannon writer’s overall aim was to inset additional “Great and Minor” houses into the IS as soon as possible to alleviate the fix they had written them-selves into with the formation of the FC and the 4SW only. It lacks all credibility.
Can anyone say how the Cannon writers set up the Star League in any universe would be considered to be acceptable by any of the major houses etc?
Can anyone say the removal of just one clan from the IS (Jag’s) is politically acceptable to the other House Lords?
Can anyone say that whilst on Huntress the forces of the entire IS would not loot the place clean for every scrap of technology they could get their mitts on?
Again and again the understanding and writing of basic strategies and tactics used in the cannon are sub-par.
I for one want to establish an alternate to the Cannon – something that I can believe in.
If others want to use it or ignore it fine by me … I just hope it gives them ideas from which they could make their own universe …
As I have yet to be convinced the current cannon has any legitimacy based upon tactics, etc … this is an alternate universe after all. We do not have to blindly stick to the canon writing as the one and only history that can never be altered.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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tmr01750195
08/13/18 03:01 AM
76.121.197.44
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Hello Requiem,
Quote:
1. Battlesat can be found in the 3057 Technical Readout – Dropships, Jumpships and Warships – under System Defence Stations Pg. 204 -205
Thank you for letting me know that the BattleSat is found in TR 3057 and is the System-Defense Station. I was hoping that the station was the one being discussed, but I had to be sure.
Quote:
2. As per the current rules retrofitting a dropship is not allowed – in house if your referee allows it is another matter entirely.
In TR 3057 there are a number of Inner Sphere DropShips that have been upgraded to Star League Tech. Of course the rules for Crystal Game Labs, FASA AT2, and FanPro/WKGames AT2 Revised are clear that the only capital weapon system that can be installed are the AR10 launcher and missiles.
Quote:
Though in my opinion once the Clans invade with warships from a military perspective you need to create a way of dealing with them asap as they have just become the biggest target on battlefield that needs to neutralized. Especially after the First Wave Incident at Turtle Bay – in which shows that the Clans do have an inclination towards orbital bombardment.
I agree that once the Clans brought in their warships catching the Inner Sphere by surprise and the the Inner Sphere commanders would have to figure out how to take them out.
IIRC the Clan involved restored to the planetary bombardment because the planet's defenders failed to play by the Clan's rules of warfare. In general the Clans are even more reluctant to flatten a world using orbital bombardment than the leaders of the Inner Sphere and ComStar. IIRC the Word Of Blake is more than willing to use orbital bombardment.
Quote:
Therefore at this stage as a General on the battlefield your options become limited to 1. Aerospace attack with Nuclear Missiles; 2. Aerospace attack (Nuclear Bomb) Kamikaze attack if you are DC; 3. start retrofitting your existing dropship fleet with Naval Grade Weapons (as a stop gap measure before you can get your own pocket warships / full warship fleet online for a Naval War); 4. The Big-Wing Aerospace attack group using Vengeance Carriers and 80 to 120 aerospace fighters to pound the warships into scrap with bruit force alone.
I agree with suggestions 1, 2, and 4 as counters that an Inner Sphere Commander of a system under Clan attack is going to try. However, the Clan has more experience handling warships and will be attempting to counter the Inner Sphere maneuvers.
Suggestion 4 only works if the Inner Sphere Commander was able to get a significant number of refitted DropShips into the system before the attacking Clan arrived. Of course that would mean that all capital weapons can be used, but under the existing rules they can only mount Capital Missiles.
[quoe]And on a personal note I am upset the writing of the invasion was of such limited imagination, with a little more thought the designers of the game could have opened the dimensions of the game to new heights if only they had given it a little more thought (or even cracked open a history book to WWII for inspiration).
FASA, like other game companies of the time, had several game lines being produced at the same time. Each game in production had new material being churned out that had to meet a deadline. Then the fans where sending in suggestions on how to improve the game. The end result was glossing over or skimping on details.
Quote:
Ghostrider in response to your post,
In levelling out either side of a dropship is not as easy as it sounds when you consider the smallest energy based Capital Weapon is 700 tons (NL35) to the Largest at 3,000 (Heavy NPPC) at these sizes it is not just a question of shifting the cargo around to get ship equilibrium.
For a spheroid Dropship you would have to rip a major hole in the side just to place it within the ship – and how many decks would you have to cut through and how many vital cables / air reclamation pipes etc would you have to move and how many rooms would you lose in inserting it – the size and scope of such a task would be incredibly difficult when you compare it to an Achilles retrofit .
This is why I looked at the Achilles – you could just create a bracket under the nose or integrate into the nose of the dropship and the establishment of hard-points for OS Capital Missiles could easily to be placed upon any of the rear compartments (as it looks like a box?).
As the Achilles is easier – thus quicker – you could thus mass produce these PTs to ensure multiple squadrons are activated for deployment in a very short time when comparing it to attempting a spheroid PT squadron.
Yes, there is more work in modifying a spheroid DropShip than an Aerodyne DropShip. However, strapping a capital weapon to exterior hull still requires work in making the fittings to attach the weapon to the hull. Next the weapon is easier to kill since it is not enclosed in armor.
Another consideration is heat dissipation which is already a delicate balance using standard weapons.
I do not recall any information on how long it takes to construct one hull, however my understanding is that there are a small number of ship yards that are capable of building new hulls. I very much doubt that there are enough yards to pull in all the existing hulls and have enough capital weapons on hand to stick one on each hull.
Quote:
As for facing down for an orbital bombardment, no, in space there is no up / down you can just rotate you craft through a 360 degree plane and engaging your weapons as you roll if you want – just align your heaviest naval energy weapon to the target on the ground and fire at will.
Game mechanics have been over simplified for play ability, however the defenders will be trying to take out the ship so there should be maneuvering to avoid being destroyed.
Tom Rux
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Requiem
08/13/18 05:07 AM
58.175.193.140
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Thank you Tom Rux for a great read,
Can I ask a question regarding my Achilles PT Variant ‘Dropship’ – Rather than Building a hull within a space ship yard, could you not build it in multiple ‘sections’ on the ground so that its almost modular – ie. remove section of outer wall , reinforce the structure, include all necessary cabling etc. to control he release mechanism of the OS Capital Missile, then just attach the new outer hull with “claws” to hold the missile in place whilst in transport – then like the missiles on fighters now they are ‘pushed’ a couple of meters from the hull before their rockets ignite (reducing the need to dissipate the heat as the rockets ignite)
Could this be completed at almost any ship yard once you have trained the dock workers - thus you might even be able to get a production line mentality to it (completing it in large numbers)
Or do you believe a new "yard" should be established (adjacent to any existing yard) to allow for a production line to be established.
Your thoughts would be appreciated.
Requiem
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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tmr01750195
08/13/18 12:24 PM
76.121.197.44
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Thank you Tom Rux for a great read,
Before going further I need to be clear that my understanding of the BT construction process is based on my military background starting by growing up as an Air Force brat and ending in a twenty year USN career as a member of four submarine crews, one surface ship, and several shore facilities. My Dad was in the Air Force and he taught me to follow a process from the start to finish as written. The USN reinforced the training, especially when serving on a submarine. Failing to follow a procedure the worst case is that the submarine has one more dive than surface.
Other thoughts occurred to me as I drifted off to sleep. The suggested upgrade to the Achilles is by mounting the capital weapons on the hull's exterior which I feel could also be applied to Spheroid DropShip. Of course the same issues apply as with mounting them on an Achilles.
During the same period I realized that installing capital weapons on a hull's exterior would probably cause issues with the hull's maneuvering thrusters.
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Can I ask a question regarding my Achilles PT Variant ‘Dropship’ – Rather than Building a hull within a space ship yard, could you not build it in multiple ‘sections’ on the ground so that its almost modular – ie. remove section of outer wall , reinforce the structure, include all necessary cabling etc. to control he release mechanism of the OS Capital Missile, then just attach the new outer hull with “claws” to hold the missile in place whilst in transport – then like the missiles on fighters now they are ‘pushed’ a couple of meters from the hull before their rockets ignite (reducing the need to dissipate the heat as the rockets ignite)
Yes, one could use ground based modular construction methods to manufacture components to do the conversion. However, space vehicle assets would be needed to get the parts from the ground to the the orbital site. In a system not under attack this may be a possible solution provided there was enough trained personnel and other assets available to accomplish the task. Of course this would divert resources needed to build the new warships and other assets to replace units lost in combat. Then there is the need to repair damaged units and to keep existing units supplied with everything needed to fight the enemy.
Reviewing FASA, FanPro/WKGames, and Crystal Game Labs single/one shot (OS) launchers material they agree that the launcher is set-up to fire one salvo at same tonnage and generates the same amount of heat when fired at an increased cost.
IIRC missiles mounted on modern combat aircraft on wing/fuselage mounts use gravity to separate them from the aircraft by a certain distance before igniting the motor. Wing-tip missiles appear to either pushed off the mount or have the mounting pins retract before motor ignition. Regardless, most of the shows and video clips I've seen show some of the flame of the motor washing back on the aircraft for fractions of a second after being released.
Using the suggested method would in my opinion need to have rules drafted to take into account the complexity of ejecting the one shot capital missile away from the hull.
One-Shot systems are available only to missile systems IIRC.
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Could this be completed at almost any ship yard once you have trained the dock workers - thus you might even be able to get a production line mentality to it (completing it in large numbers)
Looking at Television programs like Impossible Engineering one needs to first set-up the machines needed to construct the modules, ensure that the process can be replicated without any major interruptions, have a large enough personnel pool to both train some in the new process and maintain production of other materials needed economically and militarily.
A system that is not under attack could probably make this work provided that there is still enough personnel to maintain new construction and ship repair/retrofits. Having your infrastructure being pounded by the enemy would see, in my opinion, the same results as what happened during WW II. Then there is the time needed to get everything done before the first hull slides off the ways.
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Or do you believe a new "yard" should be established (adjacent to any existing yard) to allow for a production line to be established.
Building a "new yard" anywhere is going to divert personnel from existing yards and construction new assets, like warships, and repair/refitting of existing units. Time is once again another factor that needs to be taken under consideration when putting this option into action.
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Your thoughts would be appreciated.
Requiem
Hopefully my thoughts are making sense as well as being helpful rather than being a pain in one or more body parts of choice.
Tom Rux
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