Requiem
08/26/18 09:34 PM
58.175.193.140
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On 8 July General Kerensky gave his famous Exodus order and the huge force was assembled.
A total of nearly six million personnel, a third of which were soldiers and the rest civilians, were carried in 1,349 JumpShips, 402 WarShips and over 5,000 DropShips.
Mathematics
On Average each person requires 1.8Kg per day food and water – thus the Fleet would require 10,800 tons per day for food and water. (or was it all dehydrated etc.?)
Question how would their food supplies hold up for even a short period of time – 30 days = 324,000 tons of food and water alone. (unless dehydrated?)
Vitamin deficiency? Scurvy / sunlight etc must also be considered …
And what about herd animals to begin a-new (Chickens, Cattle, Sheep, Fish, etc.) and plant seeds for crops (Barley, wheet, rice + fruit and vegies etc.) – their food water / storage etc. (and Pets?)
Total number of ships is 1,751 – on average each ship would require to hold 3,427 people (initially)
Ships + Dropships is 6,751 - on average each would require to hold people 889 people (initially)
And this is not even taking into account some ships would have to be specialized – no / minimal civilians only – Scouting role – fuel – storage only
Question how would the air reclamation units per ship be able to cope?
And wat about everything else you would need to bring to begin resettlement on a new world – just contemplate the amount this would require ? So how do they fit in any Battlemechs at all?
Where do you expect to find a resupply along the way? A lot of this was taken on trust?
They were out there for almost 2 years before they reached their destination
What about shore leave if you found a habitable world – decision made by rotation – once down how do you get them back aboard ship?
Medical Supplies – new births – education – deaths – cramped quarters – violence due to the cramped quarters – Keeping law and order - animosity towards those living in better conditions in comparison to others - ie. All the little civil issues
Did Kerensky realize what he was getting into with four million civilians – herding a vast number of wet cats would have been easier?
Once you think about it I believe the number of Jumpships / Dropships required should have been way more than originally disclosed.
And what about Fuel requirements
Did anyone even think it through – once you get to a new home world there will be no place for any soldiers at all as everyone would need to pitch in to re-build society from the ground up.
How do you live for the first couple of years – around the dropship in tents? Thus no luxuries whatsoever
How do you process raw materials to manufacture houses and other buildings?
How do you know if the seeds will produce a viable food crop?
How do you determine who gets to live in a house first – there will be resentment by those who have to wait for long periods of time?
And the questions go on and on ….
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/27/18 02:16 AM
66.74.61.223
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Well to start off what kind of ships did they take? Scout jumpships? Monoliths?
Dropships. Leopards? Excaliburs? Mammoths? Behemoths?
It is possible they froze embrios of herd animals then use the canister technology to bring them to life. It would also allow them to make sure inbreeding wouldn't happen.
The air reclamation as well as shore leave and fresh food is all part of the same answer. Any world they could stop at and breath, could well have had food they could use as well as start pumping air tanks with the air. Fuel could be gotten from stars if I recall another post right.
As the Star League did have some information of the periphery, they could have known of a few locations, even a secret base or 4 that they stopped at.
Soldiers do help build their bases. Some are nothing more then manual labor, while others have more skills such as electrical and such. Mechs make a good power lifter for supplies and holding parts in place while welders do their work.
And that is not saying the civilians didn't have some skills as well.
Scraping a few dropships may well have given them the ability to use the resources to make heavy equipment. And that is not saying there weren't explorer dropships that didn't have the ability to start new colonies. I will grant you, they haven't been published, so that is lacking.
But I will say, there was references to dropships being converted for ore mining and processing.
It also doesn't say, they didn't just hook up some space factories to the ships and take them. But this last statement is guessing.
But it would make sense, they should be able to fabricate parts from things on the ships. They do on air craft carriers. Though don't think they smelt it on the carrier.
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Requiem
08/27/18 05:03 AM
58.175.193.140
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We can assume that with the Jumpships and the Dropships there would be a mix of all classes throughout the fleet – though the majority would be military vessels as they are coming from the SLDF.
The only option is large cruise liner Jumpships (similar to that White Swan Trans-Stellar Inc.?) – yet I have not seen a technical readout for this type of ship – or was there a cruise line Dropship the same size as a Behemoth dropship with all the mod cons?
This is the only things that makes any kind of reality to the story – but where are they now – were they all destroyed in the succession wars and with the resurgence of technology why haven’t White Swan and others starting rebuilding? Cost etc ?
Did Clan Wolverine return with any of these with their Operation Switchback?
Maybe this story requires a little bit more info than we have been supplied with at the moment?
I did not know the Star League had Iron Womb technology for animals – I thought they came in around 2816 with the Clan Eugenics program and the exodus was 2784? (Thus 2816 was during the second exodus? – work that one out – as to how quickly it takes to establish a city / agriculture etc and a new army all at the same time you are making technological strides with artificial birthing chambers – stretching reality here to breaking point?)
Air reclamation sorry is not the same – there is only a finite amount of carbon dioxide / oxygen the reclamation unit can process - think submarine – and with over 3 thousand people per ship / 800 per dropship (where is the room for all these people? Plus all the equipment / prefab housing / machinery etc) - so once again multiple cruise liners?
Also once they leave a short distance out they will then be in uncharted waters – thus you leave it to luck to find water and food? As there will no longer be any SLDF bases at all….
I doubt anyone gave it any real consideration as to how much work it will take to colonize a new world and the time taken to achieve parity with that of worlds within the Inner Sphere that they left behind
Even reading some of the articles regarding the possible Colonisation of Mars I begin to question the timetable the cannon writers proposed –minimum 25 to 50 years to reach the same level of technological / agricultural etc. with that of a world they left behind in the IS sound more plausible. And would not have the Civil War / Operation Klondike severely damaged their technological ability the same as it did in the first / second /third succession wars?
and with Nicholas’ restrictions on jumping between castes this would have been a restriction to achieving parity (even longer in all reality to achieve parity with the pre Star League IS world?) .
Again was this point even considered when writing the history of the clans, as it appears to be glossed over from my readings?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (08/27/18 05:04 AM)
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Requiem
08/27/18 05:18 AM
58.175.193.140
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Additional Thought
Money
Where did all the money come from to pay for all the Exodus Fleets supplies et al
The Quartermaster Corp would have had to rob the bank to pay for it – so were was the oversight auditors and the JAG Corp during all of this – did they just turn a blind eye to it all?
Also everyone who when with the Exodus Fleet - all of their Inner Sphere bank accounts now becomes meaningless – so what did they do with their money / superannuation accounts et al – put it toward the Exodus / give it away?
These kind of transactions should have produced so many red flags to the government’s banking oversight bodies as multiple suspicious transactions. Thus every government should have known that they were planning on leaving and not coming back when all SLDF military personnel begin to utilise their funds in such a suspicious manner?.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Cray
08/27/18 05:42 PM
97.101.136.19
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Quote:
On Average each person requires 1.8Kg per day food and water – thus the Fleet would require 10,800 tons per day for food and water. (or was it all dehydrated etc.?)
Spacecraft consumables have rules in Strategic Operations, and allow for better recycling (less mass per day) with improved quarters.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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ghostrider
08/27/18 06:25 PM
66.74.61.223
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The SDLF had ships that still aren't in print. Far County has a Vulture class ship in it, that was the first misjump of the story. So it would lead that the SLDF would have some as well.
Part of the answer on where some of the non military are, could be, they were used to make the initial buildings/shops.
And surprisingly, the air scrubbers could have alot of replacement parts already on board some ships, or requisitioned during the time Kerensky was on earth, trying to keep the league together. That could well have also been a time, he sent supplies to specific points in the periphery or even deep space. This may have been done in the periphery wars.
This could even have extra ships that were not part of the known ships leaving.
Do I think so? Not so much as it sounds. But it is possible.
The lack of your White Swans, would well be because the Monarch civilian dropship isn't in high demand, why would they need something larger? There isn't a real call for it. So money would be a big possibility. And the clans would use them for other things, once they had sent down the civilians. No military need for them so use or mothball. I would think use.
The Iron Womb may not have been there at the time. I couldn't think of the cryogenic reanimizers name, and used the wombs name. We have that tech today, so it should be there. And the animals would be the basis of testing for the iron womb. Example would be cloning right now.
Not very imaginative with some of this. ANY world with a breathable atmosphere would well be used to fill air tanks to refresh air on ships that did not/could not make planet fall. And Mammoths did not need to house people. They were bulk storage, such as the tankers described in the jumpship and dropships books. Excaliburs, Fortress, and a few other infantry carriers could well be packed with non military people, as it sounds like they would have room, as the entire army didn't go with them. No real mention of the SLDF leaving ships for those remaining. Also, they had access to League passenger ships that are not in the books.
Or is this to far out for imagination? Supposition has been the basis for a lot of the complaints against the writers so far. And still no hard numbers on how deep the SLDF scouted the periphery.
As some of this was done before 2000, and is a science fiction game, it is very possible they did not use hard numbers to figure this out. They threw out numbers and most didn't question it. It was there for entertainment.
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Requiem
08/28/18 03:41 AM
58.175.193.140
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First, the Vulture in Far Country was a Dropship Class.
During the age of the Star League could there have been cruise lines (as we do today) in all probability – I am under the assumption that yes there could be.
Could there have been other classes of dropships other than the Monarch that would be used to transport passengers in comfort from point “A” to “B” – again yes – and could there also be Cruise Liner Jumpships – again yes.
Plus during the great exodus from humanities cradle (Terra) to all the planets that were colonised – could there have been a specialised dropship designed specifically for colonists to colonise virgin worlds – again yes
And could these craft have been suborned for Kerensky’s Exodus – again yes
It is just that they have yet to be established within a Technical Readout – though hopefully they will be shortly
If we have Kerensky’s exodus path – then why do we not have a map to all the planets along that path that were used to resupply the fleets oxygen / food etc. as well as those that were found to be unable to support life?
Again if the Exodus Fleet was relying on finding a planet for your oxygen there is something wrong with your operational planning.
Plot holes due to pre 2000 writings … could they rewrite them to make them work now? Or just hope no one finds the problem.
Thought the issue of how Kerensky funded this mission should be considered – also what did happen to everyone’s bank accounts /all their assets should have been considered as well.
I would therefore assume each person was given a weight restriction / size restriction on what they could bring with them?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/28/18 12:01 PM
66.74.61.223
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As I said before, and will repeat again. Rule holes need to be filled long before they rewrite their history. Otherwise, you will have more show up yet again.
I also said it is very possible the writers/developers didn't really put into numbers what was going on, and just wrote it in to add to the story of the IS. Then when they did, their own rules and lack of thinking about a game that most didn't care about story line holes, would work.
I mean if you look at it, the entire line of Star League items then clan were made up after their stories were started. No units with better items were even mentioned in the 3025 era, except they performed better. No stats.
Again. Without hard numbers, we don't know how much of the current day periphery was even partially explored. The fleet could well have had the data they needed for the first few months, and had ships return to those places as O2 got low, while scouting other areas.
But then the question comes up on why go the direction they did? As the IS map is drawn, they went basically straight north/up/ and I suspect coreward.
With this, I think Kurita was the most hostile to the SLDF forces at the time. If nothing, the FS would have been the better route.
The issue of funds and people account left behind. No hard data on how many of those people had nothing left, as Amaris would have targeted known SLDF troops families. It could very well be then had the clothes on their backs, and only what charity gave them otherwise. Given that scenario, more then a few would say screw it and head out. Especially if their spouses or other family was going with their military commander. Money could well have been part of the Leagues funding, which could well have been within Kerensky's reach to do with as needed.
This issue could well solve the weight restrictions, as most would not have anything.
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Reiter
08/28/18 02:31 PM
45.48.53.140
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*waves hands as a rainbow appears between them*
Use your imagination.
It is science fiction with giant stompy robots measured in the size of buildings and ships that can warp through space instantaneous up to 30 light years, yet you worry about real life things to make sense....I hate star wars except for watching it one time as an action sci-fi flick and light sabers (to complex of a tool, to over power wielders and it is just fantasy fiction of "the chosen one" with blasters) would never exist yet people eat it up like it is a religion.
You don't need to think hard about everything Req, it only makes you question everything again and again further discounting things that are not even real in the first place nor has humanity even considered something as large scale as moving 1 million people or greater people off planet Earth in one go. It is unimaginable for the actual logistics, so use your imagination, BT is already using subjective made up stats for anything in BT, and questionable backstory that even you question yet quote it as hard facts. How is X = Y, when it neither actually exist? Lets ask Schrödinger
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Requiem
08/28/18 05:17 PM
58.175.193.140
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Thus all back stories can be plausible and implausible at the same time?
And yet when it comes to running your individual game you are expected to remain in the area of plausibility at all time …. accounting for funds for repair, ammunition, the ability to purchase new ‘Mechs etc. … that is the rules of the game and they are inviolate ….
Otherwise should I not be allowed to construct an Achilles PT craft?
If you expect one to adhere to the rules now, then you must also expect the other, in the past, to be true and accurate as well …
If a mistake was made in the past – own it – say it was a mistake and say rather than 1700 ships it was more in the figure of 6,000 – where many contained prefabricated factories / building / equipment etc and say that it only took two to three years to establish the primary city for six million – thereafter smaller communities were established for agriculture plus larger communities on other worlds were also being established from the manufacturing plants etc upon the primary location then shipped out – thus over time multiple colonies were established upon multiple worlds – ie a new believable backstory
Thus the fiction can become the believable otherwise …
As per Schrodinger it is both alive and dead at the same time – both plausible and implausible
Though as it stands more upon the implausible
This happens time and again throughout the game where we (the audience) are expected to believe in the implausible behind the scenes and yet are expected to live in the plausible realm.
You cannot expect this – it must then be all implausible or all plausible not let’s leave the plot hole and who cares – fix it! So that all can be plausible
I am quite tired of plots that have no reality in the plausible – the 4SW, Clans Invasion, Jihad, Dark Times etc and etc time and again plots are created where you just groan at the implausible and you are expected to believe in the cannon
And especially the Jags home world – no looting at all – get plausible !!!!!!!
Otherwise this game as it stands will not have a future as less and less will want to pick up the game as the contradictions will put people off the game.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/29/18 03:03 AM
66.74.61.223
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The issue with owning it, comes down to the fact this is the wrong board to bring it up to those developers. The official site is where you need to discuss this. I should have taken a few questions over there myself.
where many contained prefabricated factories / building / equipment etc
This statement is interesting, as you are talking about a military run operation with military ships and the SLDF army. They would or should have these materials aboard ships long before they launch. They would have been needed to build any base in the periphery states they were fighting in. Why would they not have it when they left?
A full fledged repair facility should have the materials to start up heavy industries, and some are aboard the very ships they would take with then, ie an overlord.
The gamers are supposed to take what they like and use it. If you don't like or agree with the story line, stop buying those items and get what you need/want to run your campaign. A lot of the questions here need to be answered by those that created the 'holes'. Go there to get the answers, as alls most of us can do is give possibles.
And with our current technology, the idea of FTL drives is implausible. Fusion engines that are moble are not available.
So saying you are required to believe it, well, this should answer part of that.
Also, there are some examples of ships being overloaded with personnel, that would tax the cleaners. Most are from their base to their target, but that may well be multiple jumps from their start point. The one I can think of right now, was only jump point to ground, and that was the Grey Death Legion novel.
A few others suggested fleeing units did the same thing, only jumped out of the system. It made it sound like they left for Galantia, which was more then a few jumps from where they were.
Thinking about it, the weights and such are set for safe operations, not how long they would last overloaded. I have not seen anywhere where they actually deal with that. They do suggest units can be broken down and stored in cargo areas. I would guess that means extra air recyclers in ships that would normally carry units like mechs, while they are stored on Behemoths and such. They did move tens of thousands, maybe even 1 million troops at a time to fight in the periphery. They had multiple fights going on at once as well. It isn't that far out there, that they had experience moving such a large force with limited supplies.
Returning to terra to fight Amaris, when the houses would not do anything to help comes to mind.
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Requiem
08/29/18 05:31 AM
58.175.193.140
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Yes military units have engineers and the ability to establish cities.
However, what they do not have is the ability of a large engineering corporation and what they bring to the equation – miners, large scale metal fabrication, advanced electronics manufacturing (Civil and military) etc – ie. everything that makes a society work in addition to all the necessary and unnecessary employment opportunities …need to be considered.
As going from building a base and keeping your weapons ready is a far cry from building a fully functioning city (society).
And given the limited number of Jumpships and Dropships that went with the fleet they will require manufacturing in large quantities to ensure the cities are established quickly – ie. Power, Sewage system, Housing (bricks), agriculture, horticulture, aquaculture, transportation, hospitals, schools, clothing, shopping malls etc. that need to be established to ensure a healthy society …
And given the time line in the books this appears to have been created “overnight” when you consider how quickly it took to establish a Eugenics Program in Clan Space, and then being able to establish advanced R&D for Weapons manufacturing, including new “Mech Design that were manufactured …. Rather than civil engineering projects etc.
The writing appears to be a little unrealistic … their ability to establish everything and them move forward is way too quick.
So again suspend reality and just go with the illogical
Another huge plot hole ….. again
So, if the writers can do it why can’t the gamers do it also? What specialised RD Projects should the gamers be allowed to develop that are not within Canon?
May be there needs to be a book called Battletech R&D for each gamer group to customise their world …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/29/18 03:23 PM
66.74.61.223
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How many of those experts you mentioned were already part of the military?
Housing and power could well come from grounded dropships. And brick is probably not as abundant in some areas as wood.
Along this line, what skills did the family members have? And those that went with him that did not have anyone in the military.
As for overnight, how long was the planning for this? Did he have a contingency in place while fighting the periphery states?
Were those under him have the idea before they had to use it? I would think some had it as a back up plan as the houses were not supporting the military.
I would suggest you deal with house rules sort of thing and not say the writers are screwed in the head because you don't agree with them. Without hard number or facts, this is all conjecture.
Also, this is a sci fi game. Prototypes, like better, more efficient air cleaners may have been working, but the costs of refitting older ships with them may have prevented it. But newly made ones could well have them. Even military troop transports for moving larges units in one ship could well have been done. Not written, so this requires imagination.
And it is likely they took a few liberties to get it done. If you look at almost any game, there is issues with it when you run the numbers. This is meant for quick game play, not setting up a real trip to Mars.
As a side note. It is interesting that the worlds they settled on had things from Terra, such as black widows, which the Widowmakers name came from. Those extremely large ones.
Bears? They formed on other worlds? Not likely. Yet the Ghost Bear was found.
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Requiem
08/29/18 05:31 PM
58.175.193.140
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Engineers are considered to be small part of the military – consider the SeeBees in WW2 in comparison it was 0.1%
Yes Dropships would form the initial nucleus of any construction effort. However, ultimately it is about construction materials – raw materials to finished product and the process / machinery to get you there that is ultimately required to be undertaken.
How quickly can any unit accommodate this?
In all reality housing and all other service buildings would take decades before it could be considered complete.
As for civilians – total cross section of the community – this would then be audited before leaving to ensure they at least have minimum numbers – and would also explain why Kerensky’s soldiers kidnapped miners for the exodus (to ensure they had the numbers) – so personal freedom was lost from word one?
However, this also proves the lengths Kerensky would go to – the initial immorality/ illegality of exodus – from dereliction of duty –theft – embezzlement etc.
How many times does this game have plot holes that do not make any sense whatsoever and how long had the game been running – can’t you assign someone would take a look at an issue and create a revisionist piece. They could then just slip it in stating that due to the destruction of records at the time we believed it to be 1,700 Jumpships, however when going over the records now we have found that the correct figures was more in the line of 7,700 and we (ComStar) believes this to have been a typo at the time, you could have even given the archivist a “Nobel” award (or something similar) and then just slip in a piece of information in the secret history of the Clans stating it took 50 -75 years before the initial cities (societies) were considered to be of a satisfactory initial level of service for the community.
How hard is this?
Remember – bases are usually not created from the most robust of materials (prefabricated pieces were made by companies who’s bid was the lowest to get the job). In comparison to what a city is constructed from (mass steel, concrete, brick, stones)
Also Nicholas brought back handmade stone masonry for his hall of khans – a very labour intensive job? Especially when you consider all the statues glorifying his warrior caste were created by hand.
As for air filters – have a look at the construction rule book – the personnel on a ship is increased 15-20 times I doubt they had that in mind when you created the air filters – 2-4 times I could understand but upwards of 20 times I do not think so.
QUOTE: This is meant for quick game play, not setting up a real trip to Mars.
Initially yes, however over time the BT universe has grown where the gamers have demanded a realistic understanding of events – how many times have there been discussions as to why a war can / can’t proceed due to the number of resources available? Case in point my idea of Invading the Periphery / Deep Periphery during the Clan Invasion – this is just the logical extension of that debate.
Either we have a universe we can understand or we just ignore the multiple plot holes.
Believable of Unbelievable
Case in point the biggest of them all – the trip to Jaguars home world and not bringing home a technological souvenir – if this was done correctly should the IS be close (Closer) to clan technology by 3150 as to be almost negligible and maybe in some areas the IS could be in advance of the Clans?
This would also have multiple future repercussions - as this have changed the entire dynamics of the game by 3150 and would have changed many of the future wars with Clans?
So, is it right to leave this plot holes as is? Or do we need to correct these mistakes?
For me a rewrite is required to vindicate the truth of the issue.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/29/18 11:28 PM
66.74.61.223
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Ok. Step one. Alexander, not Nicholas was in charge of the exodus. The facts about this statement is more then a few years after the initial building of the pentagon worlds.
Also Nicholas brought back handmade stone masonry for his hall of khans – a very labour intensive job? Especially when you consider all the statues glorifying his warrior caste were created by hand. When did the jaguars build their namesake?
Step two. 3050 was copyrighted 1996. The newer stuff is to give some information on what happened. Originally, there was no information about the Wolverines nuke issue. So by saying that is a hole, that is one huge example of the lack of information given to the players. Post release fix? Possibly.
Things not making sense. Might be an inability to imagine things, as well as specifically looking for things that do not fit a particular style of thought or wants.
You want issues, how about the tc/pulse laser issue. That should never have been released without the restrictions of not being able to use the specific targeting. This very much changes the basics of the game.
This would also have multiple future repercussions - as this have changed the entire dynamics of the game by 3150 and would have changed many of the future wars with Clans?
Is this a set up for the next war? Some left behind got into power, and restarted the clans after the reaveing wars?
Now think about what is written. If they had taken the tech, then the future wars would not have happened, so their making more money of the same idea dies. Same with the civil war idea when the FC would take over the other houses. The Star League would be a hinderance to that.
Granted, I have stated before, it is stupid for the IS to be so far behind the clans after this strike for more then even a decade. They had the tech and plans as well as know how to get it done. Even during the war, they would have samples and at least upgraded the league tech with more range/power, or lighter items. 100 years later and still nothing?
Name one movie that doesn't have a plot hole. Do we rewrite them to fill them in?
Fix the rules first, then remake the history with the new rules in place. Alot of history would be changed with some of them. And as they had a monitor ship guarding Tharkad in the novels, yet no ship yards to remove the jump drive and replace it with larger engines during the civil war ring a bell here? The natural aptitude for mech gunnery being banned yet several of the big names in the books had it? The idea that mechs can do summersaults in the air ring a bell? There are alot more issues that are still out there with the rules and some things not in the main books, as they made sure they died with those books. Otherwise, it causes a major issue with the main story line.
Sensor baffles on buildings were left behind, yet stealth armor came about? Hmmm.
Guided infantry missiles left behind, yet streaks came about? Hmmm. This one being in the first mech warrior RPG.
Edited by ghostrider (08/29/18 11:30 PM)
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Requiem
08/30/18 08:10 AM
58.175.193.140
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Every civilisation has an origin story to prove that they are special and the Clans are no less a culture.
So, what are the virtues that theirs are based upon - What is the mirror of the Clans?
Seeds of violence, a Journey of one man imposing his will upon the masses that are beneath him (which are objectified in his view and all future views) even to the extent of one brother manipulating the other, killing as an object measure, which will lead to war, fratricide and megalomania – in other worlds a complete betrayal upon which their original ideals that they held dear is sacrificed upon the alter of war.
Not a good standing point from which to build upon.
Then the dehumanising of your enemies, whilst at the same time, proclaiming the victories and virtues of your warriors.
Using an ally as an object lesson no to go against the leader.
What does this tell us, it tells us the ethical priorities of a culture – it represents what the culture holds dear – the justification for their violence inflicted upon their enemies?
Their modus operandi are constant war, taking what they want and using non warriors as a means to an end?
So did they have to kill to ensure the continuality of their reshine?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/30/18 05:10 PM
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Military discipline was supposed to avoid the corruption of the government. But as with all governments, once corruption starts, and it will start, it is difficult to fight it, even if you see it in time.
Given the war game this is, as well as the story of them leaving the IS, it would seem to have been the best solution for the time.
What you describe happens with alot of social structures.
Rich start thinking anyone that isn't is a slave for them to do as they want.
Same with the intelligent structures. Communism. Capitalism. Socialism. Every form of government has the built in flaws that will eventually lead to the same type of corruption.
This isn't something new.
Human greed causes systems to fail. Even more then mentally unstable rulers, though they increase the speed that others want to change/stop the current ways of doing things.
I think being killed quickly is more humane then starving to death.
But then dictatorships are far worse. At least the military one doesn't promote so much of the personal abuse of subject like a dictatorship does.
So the war gamers thought to make a military for future combat with the IS, and sell more books. And it worked.
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