Hidden Forces – Hidden Manufactories

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Requiem
08/31/18 05:49 PM
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During the earliest days of the Jihad Blakist “hidden” armies strikes at Chaos March.

This is followed by the knowledge that five hidden worlds were established for the express purposes of manufacturing and maintaining Blakist’s military

My question is this – why didn’t all the Great Houses from the earliest days of the Star League onwards have their own? As such a policy of finding hidden systems for the express purposes of manufacturing and maintaining hidden military production facilities, and even hidden armies and navies does make sense?

The workers could be shipped in and shipped out as required.

As it not only provides each House with a tactical and strategic advantage it also allows for each house to retain a proportion their military industrial capabilities (due to their hidden locations) in the event of an all-out war for the express purposes of a second strike.

There would also be the assumption that hidden bases – either located on world or within space stations – were at the same time established for their House militaries so that they could strike their enemies form hidden star systems in the event of an all-out war.

So could there still be these hidden facilities / bases be out there just waiting for someone to find them?

And should they have been included in the game?

As the assumption of using “Hidden” systems was included in the game back in the war of 3039 when Takashi used hidden systems to strike at the House Davion’s forces, thus is this not the logical conclusion of this thought?

And if so why not include these hidden bases etc when re-designing the Clan Invasion etc. and for all future wars.

So is this a new dynamic theme to the game that should have been included?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
08/31/18 06:21 PM
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It is very likely they did have such resources made.
Since the idea of the numbers of jumpships and dropships seem to vary, this could be answered with the lack of them. No feasible way to keep them stocked with the few ships they did have. Other areas were needed more. So you build where you can keep the minimal amount of resources.

And hidden is an issue. The dark Nebula was known to the IS, though most thought if it did have something, it was destroyed. Given the destruction done in the succession wars, that would be understandable. Even a full strike may well have made it seem like these areas were completely destroyed, and no one bothered to check them out.

The stories suggests some manufacturing plants surviving on worlds that units find. Warehouses being the main one.

As the assumption of using “Hidden” systems was included in the game back in the war of 3039 when Takashi used hidden systems to strike at the House Davion’s forces, thus is this not the logical conclusion of this thought?
A lot of strikes were supposed to use 'dead' systems to jump thru to attack others. The FWL strikes on Defiance said that a few times. Deep raids into house territories use such an idea. Even criminals running from the law has used them. This includes people falsely accused as well as real criminals.

If you really think about it, the 'pirates' that were a problem during the League had to use 'dead' systems to do their strikes. If not, then it is very obvious who sent them. It only lessened people finding out. It would not stop it entirely.
Karagin
08/31/18 06:36 PM
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The whole hidden worlds and such is great, but someone would figure out that something is not right and start asking questions, because people want to know where things are made. Then there is that pesky need to ship parts to different places, and then food and such, but hey all of this was explained away via the Jihad novels and sourcebooks.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
happyguy49
08/31/18 11:15 PM
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Circa 3070 to 3150, if I were head of a great house or an inner sphere clan, or a CEO of a big war industry corporation, I flat out WOULD NOT site any endo steel/ferro fibrous factory, any kind of shipyard, battlemech/tank factory, HPG/black box factory, weapons plant, on a known planet, or even in an otherwise uninhabited star system. If it's not in a random unfindable spot in deep space, it is unsecure. Critical industry like that needs to be located in deep space, and segmented enough that it can be Jumped to another deep space location at short notice or even instant notice (for example, 9 hollowed out Mammoths or Behemoths worth of factory permanently attached to a charged-up Monolith.)

The Jihad showed how the pseudo-mystic proscription against targeting 'LosTech' is bygone. If even one bad actor stops respecting that social convention, (e.g. the Blakists) it doesn't work. So, all really high tech industry needs to be hidden, and unbound from planets or star systems, with locations constantly shifting to random deep space spots at random intervals.
ghostrider
09/01/18 12:14 AM
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There is an issue with that HG. Well several.
First. Getting supplies to it. Not just food, water, air and such, but ores, and if not automated, workers. Someone in that line would bound to get a bribe to just put a locator on it, or far worse, decide to take it for themselves.
If it jumps to a random spot, then you will not be able to find it unless you have a locator on it, then what's the point?
Someone will activate it or remove it so they can take it.

And then someone infiltrating the supply line will eventually find it.
Though I do like the idea of the permanently mounted dropships that are made into a factory. Might be best to randomly pick a spot to rendevous with your supplies, and have a lithium batter so you can jump back out quickly. It is still at risk, but a less risk the normal.

Any good intel gathering network will figure out items are coming from some where, and look to locate them. The workers are always a risk. It takes just one to be identified, then you blackmail/extort the person thru their family.
Or do like the do now a days and send out phishing emails and such. Some stupid person on the team would open them up looking thru personal accounts. Main ways hackers get into big systems rather easily.
Requiem
09/01/18 02:27 AM
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With the basic assumption that the base is secret comes with it that it is a self-contained system.
All air, food, water, ores, processing etc are automated / available.

The only thing that is not readily available is he people to run it – and they would go through a security screen first – as well as adhering to multiple security restrictions whilst at the secret base etc.

As for jumping in and out – you would have a navigator on bord who supplies the coordinates to the computer a couple of minutes prior to the jump – once the jump is successful the Nav. Computer automatically wipes the coordinates so that there in only one set of codes on board (and even they will have multiple intrusion countermeasures built into them so that any detectable hack will result in all the codes being purged from all the computers).

Thus the only problem is the spy – and every House has countermeasures when detecting / hunting them it is just the nature of the ‘great’ game.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Karagin
09/01/18 10:52 AM
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Nothing is self contained, and the idea that if it is, what good is it for your side? If you are using these worlds to build weapons, there will be a trail of merchant ships carrying the items to your main bases and units, if you are using it to recruit, someone will notice the odd fellows and as them were they are from, people talk.

And yes you can do a lot with a world or system, but somethings will not be in every system and so you will still need to ship in that one component and that could be what gives away your base.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
ghostrider
09/01/18 11:31 AM
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With the mobile base issue, people seem to forget one major issue with security. Having physical access to the system makes it much easier to hack. You can shut down remote access, but what do you do if someone replaces a chip or even a hard drive?
A pc can have the power drained from the back up battery, and not sure of the newer ones, but the older ones would reset things like on board passwords. You can insert the hard drive into another system that is using it's own drive for an os. That gives you the opportunity to use things like the old sector editors to scan thru the disk and modify it. Even just running some on the same program without all the security is possible. I would assume they have made security and hacking easier in the future.
This is why having a back up off line, so nothing remotely can access it is the safest way to make sure you have the correct information. Until someone physically gains access to it.

Planetary bases may well have the air and possibly good water being automated, though food, ore processing and such may not be available after the succession wars. If it was, more factories would be full automation, and skip the workers.
The only one that has any fluff saying it was fully automated, was the one building centurions, that Davion added Valkyires to the factory. They were worried it would fail, and before NAIS, there was no one that could fix it.
So the high tech people needed to run the machines may well be the weak point. Egos, when that needed, tend to think they are worth so much more then what they are being paid. One of the few ways around this is being the one that has the know how to work on your own equipment.

And thinking about it, you will have to arraign resource pick ups if you don't have it all in the location of said factories. This is assuming you don't own the entire process, and are diverting some of the output to your secret locations, and this would include having to own your own jumpships, which may well lead to discovery of the location if someone hijacks that.
Karagin
09/01/18 12:44 PM
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Nothing stays hidden, once someone notices things like hey these parts are made too well, since the last one last a few months and this one is now a year old and still working, or someone will start talking about this awesome planet they visited etc...sure a lot can be dimissed as "bar or space port" talk, but many listen that and pick up information from it.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Requiem
09/01/18 04:22 PM
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No matter where you place your hidden factory it will always be vulnerable due to either spare parts, food / water shipments, human gossip etc. – the point is to mitigate as many of these variables as possible though advanced security measures ie. if Lyran put LOKI in charge of security measures – and simple vetting of people and making sure people believe these newer weapon systems still come from the known production plant (packaging says it comes from Coventry so it must be from Coventry) etc.)

As for bases – mobile as possible so that they can strike and no one will see them coming.

This then leads to requirement of a new military unit – border security – their job will be to chart all of the unknown systems and to periodically visit them in to determine the presence of any “unwanted” guests.

Their secondary role however will also to include surveying each newly found system for resources.

Then if a world if found that would require colonisation due to its abundant wealth – Just like Bletchley Park (Enigma WW2) LOKI is to provide a believable cover story so as to not break the real reason as to how / why the system was only just recently discovered.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
09/01/18 05:51 PM
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Unless all the parts are used in secret, then it really isn't worth the time, effort and money to hide factories. Sure, they can be raided and even destroyed, but that is possible when in a 'secret' location as well. Or worse. Taken by the enemy and all things going to it are taken as well.
And thinking along this line, what do you do about security/defense?
Use the regular military? Hire private security?

Granted, you can get around this some, by having factories in plain view that make the same parts, and just mix in those coming from your secret plant. But any intel organization worth anything will find inconsistent numbers, like the factory they see only makes 1000 left knee actuators for a mech, where do they get the other 1000 they put out?
This is very true when only one company makes that specific part.

So anything that has any public access/needs will cost to much to hide. The Blakists were doing it all for their own people, but I still find that odd that Comstar didn't find out thru their spies. Or even have seen their ships jump somewhere that wasn't watched.
That is a question as well. No one figured out the money they made was not going to their 'worlds' or in any banks/accounts that not a single person could find? And how long where they doing this?
CrayModerator
09/01/18 06:15 PM
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Quote:
During the earliest days of the Jihad Blakist “hidden” armies strikes at Chaos March.



No, they didn't. The Blakists' expansion of the Protectorate was underway before the Jihad began and involved no surprise or hidden armies..

Quote:
This is followed by the knowledge that five hidden worlds were established for the express purposes of manufacturing and maintaining Blakist’s military



The five hidden worlds added little to the Blakist's military strength. I mean, that's spelled out explicitly in canon.

Jihad Secrets, p14:
"And finally, there are the mysterious Five Hidden Worlds,
though they seem to have contributed little but outré technology
and Gabriel’s WarShips. If these were meant to be manufacturing
facilities hidden from the wrath of the Clans, they have not made
their weight felt because virtually all of the Word’s military
strength—even that donated to the Protectorate—can be
accounted for from better-known sources."

Requiem, you've been told that before. Why do you keep repeating internet rumors like they're canon?
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
Requiem
09/01/18 09:02 PM
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As per Sarna Wiki Pages ….

Sarna Wiki – Jihad

“During the early parts of the war, the Blakist "hidden" armies hit former Chaos March worlds in the vicinity of Terra.”

Sarna Wiki – The Five

“The Five became centers of weapons research and construction. When the Clan Invasion struck, they were turned into secret fortress worlds from which to wage war on the Clans, but they had no standing army that could have been deployed as early as the Battle of Tukayyid in 3052. They only began to build a vast army following the Master's decision that the Clans had to be destroyed, and this would become the army that ended up fighting the Word of Blake's Jihad against the entire Inner Sphere instead of the Clans in the end.”
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Karagin
09/02/18 12:03 PM
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Seems we have conflicting information and yet when I pointed out the information given in the books normally comes from ComStar sources I am told it's correct and cited page and verse. Odd.

Can we admit that the Hidden Worlds idea sounded cool and was muddled like most of the Jihad in the rust to bring the MechWarrior Click game into the BT universe?
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
ghostrider
09/02/18 03:54 PM
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•While the existence of the Five is Canon, significant portions of the background about them originates from unreliable in-character testimony and from so-called Canon Rumor sources which complicates and clouds their true history, at least until later sources are released to corroborate or dispute them.

Interesting how someone misses the text at the end of 'THE FIVE' article. It also says the one person used to work for the company but no longer does as he put in his information. Which is missed as well.

Honestly, there could be a lot of worlds that fell off the grid. One of the five was bioweapon wiped out, and COMSTAR, not WOB started up productions there. Same with the other 4. It was Comstar's doing that allowed those worlds to fall off the grid and stay off it. If not for controlling he coms network, they would not have been able to do so.

But then again, Duchy of Andurian had a 'secret' ppc factory the FWL rulers didn't know about. They mention it in the Dragoons history, as it was one of the worlds a failed civil war had the person controlling only a few systems. But that could well be their intel network had people making sure that information didn't get to others.
Karagin
09/02/18 04:24 PM
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The idea that more then one world fell of the charts is something I am using for my group and a short story.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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