ghostrider
09/25/18 10:26 PM
66.74.61.223
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Sorry No, an academy education does not slow down the rebuilding process it has the opposite effect it increases the number of people that can be assigned – thus the rebuilding phase is actually reduced.
So you are saying that the limitations of the academies, does not hinder increasing the size of ones forces? Though only training there can be done for Aeropilots, fighter/jumpship/dropship pilots and crew, yet this does not slow down how many graduate each year?
Even with Theodore, which was not coordinator but Kenrie, could not convince the DCMS, much less coordinator Takashi to allow advanced mechs to only be in the hands of criminals. Don't care how you want to spin it, that is not going to happen. To suggest otherwise, means you don't understand how the combine works.
WOB had forces to take Terra, and that was done before the League was reformed. The fact the Prime Martial did not even attempt to take Terra back, as his focus was on the clans is part of the reason they held Terra.
however once orders are given must be obeyed.
This statement is funny in a way. The entire Ronin war in the FRR contradicts this. Those units died, but they did not follow orders. As did more then a few that fled the clans and other fights. There are alot of examples in the IS of units not obeying orders.
The entire SLDF will be needed – it is not about who likes who, or who trusts who – it is about forming a hammer and anvil upon which the Clans will shatter.
Still suggesting that WOB had to have their own votes and such? They could be like one of the marches in the FC or districts in the DC. Even the territories of the FWL. There is no reason to give them that much power. And to use your own defense. It would make yet another rival to the First Lord position.
Let's see. In your alt, the CC doesn't exist anymore. So the FC/DC would hold the majority vote on that, so no. WOB would not be allowed as their own entity. We know Comstar would definitely say no. The St. Ives compact and FRR would vote against it as well, because they need the support of the FC/DC. WOB could still be in the league, but not as a voting member, or separate entity as suggested.
One last thing. According to your numbers, the FC/DC had more then enough units to destroy the clans. The tech wasn't there, but they could have done it. The issue would have been the FWL not invading the FC. With canon the CC would be the bigger threat. You suggested they did not suffer the 3039 wars losses, and had the ships to perform this just after the truce started. So over 200 regiments, including some RCTs would be sent against the clans. Even splitting them up to 10 per world until they retook them, would be more then enough to wipe out the clans in the IS.
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Requiem
09/26/18 02:07 AM
58.175.193.140
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Academy training includes education for mech-warriors; aerospace pilots; drop-ship crew; and warship crews, they will also train the officer class for all the other branches and in all probability all specialized technicians.
Then there are the boot camps for regular infantry, tank crews and all the support elements.
From there the elite are transferred to Specialized training facilities – Special Forces / Commando training / Power Armour Training etc.
Unfortunately I cannot see any limitations as to an academy trained . The numbers however will be far in excess of anything the Clans could achieve.
So I still affirm within 5-10 years it is quite conceivable the Inner Sphere could graduate an additional 75 plus RCTs and 75 plus RACTs whereas for the clans this will take a considerably longer time frame of anywhere between 25 to up to 40 plus years (depending upon the numbers who survive their trial of position each year) to graduate the same amount of the Inner Sphere is able to do in this 5 to 10 years.
The Clan’s sibko education system is not geared for mass graduates it is geared to only accepting a very small number from each sibko unit (if that) into their military.
As for units that do not obey orders – have the WOB forces ever disobeyed an order? – no they haven’t, so why do you think they would during the Counter offensive against the Inner Sphere Clan forces?
Remember THERE IS NO FIRST LORD POSITION of the Inner Sphere – there is a delegation of members based upon democracy.
As stated before to have the FWL as a Star League member, so too must the WOB also be a member.
Sorry no the FC / DC do not hold the votes …. Membership would include …
Federated Commonwealth
Draconis Combine
Free Rasalhague Republic
Free Worlds League
ComStar
Word of Blake
Duchy of Andurien / Magistracy of Canopus
St Ives Compact
Each of which would have 1 vote.
The politics of the situation does not change – the WOB will become a member with votes from DC, FWL, DofA / MofC, St.IC and FC versus CS and possibly the FRR
No, I said at the end of the 15 years truce the SLDF will have enough forces to destroy / remove from the IS those Clans who do not join the Star league.
During the Clan Invasion – due to the destruction of the CC in 39/40 – the amalgamation of their realms, military industry complex and Jumpships into the FC the Jade Falcons and the Wolves advance within the Inner Sphere would not have been as far as the original Canon proclaimed, in addition their losses would have been more pronounced than that of the original figures.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/26/18 12:45 PM
66.74.61.223
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On the vote count, I see 5 against, 2 for. The FRR and SIC would vote as the FC/DC would, and Comstar we know would be against them. The FWL would voter for, and WOB has no vote. The DoA/MoC is more likely to be the second vote for.
So unless you are rewriting the house histories as well, it is not logical WOB would be allowed without some major gifts to the others.
Why you think the DC/FC would vote for WOB is interesting. The DC did not allow the WOB to operate in their territory when they went raided the one city. The FC would have seen the attack on Terra, as a means to distract Comstar, making it less likely Comstar would assist in holding back the clans as well as regaining their worlds. If no for Fohst, Comstar would have wasted troops trying to retake Terra. That would have screwed up the entire defense.
During the Clan Invasion – due to the destruction of the CC in 39/40 – the amalgamation of their realms, military industry complex and Jumpships into the FC the Jade Falcons and the Wolves advance within the Inner Sphere would not have been as far as the original Canon proclaimed, in addition their losses would have been more pronounced than that of the original figures.
Have you forgotten what you posted about this time frame? The FC/DC would not have gotten into their skirmish, nor would the Skye Rebellion have taken place. So all those troops lost or stuck on garrison duty would not be excluded from going after the clans. So there would have been a major change in the invasion from the sheer number of troops both could move against them. Not even counting the military production that may have come from the CC. The fact the troop counts would not be just over half before the war, compared to the clan invasion would have shut down alot of that history. The CC, without using nukes and other WMD, would have been overwhelmed, if the jumpship count was as high as you wanted it to. Dropping 3 or 4 RCTs on each battalion, could have been done. Granted, that would mean only a few worlds at a time could be invaded, so more then likely about 2 per would be right. Less losses for the FC.
You did say your alt wasn't hobbled like the canon version.
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Requiem
09/26/18 04:20 PM
58.175.193.140
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The vote would be five for the WOB’s admittance and possibly two against their admittance.
The WOB do not need to provide gifts, the vote is purely political and is based upon placating the FWL. Therefore, in an attempt to maintain the fragile reformed Star League both the FC and the DC would vote for their admittance.
The issue of who controls Terra is irrelevant as long as the supply of war materials remains constant.
As for Anastasius Focht, he has his eye on the larger prize – the removal of the Clans from the Inner Sphere – this is the reason why he did not attack the WOB to regain Terra. With the removal of the Clans from the Inner Sphere (The Inner Sphere is Safe once more) then and only then would he turn his attention to the WOB and Terra.
Thus the defence of the Inner Sphere is retained during the counterattack upon the clans.
As for the change in target for the war of 39 from DC to CC, by not having the Cannon war or 39 this changes the depletion numbers not only within the FC but also that of the DC military considerably – as shown previously to attack the DC required 75 RCTs whereas attacking the CC required only 30-40 RCTs – thus less damage was inflicted to the FC military and this has the follow-through of having more during the Clan Invasion (plus the FC picked up multiple mercenary contracts who stood down during the CC invasion).
It also has the same effect upon the DC forces – their numbers that were lost during the 39 war are now nil. Thus they also have a more robust military to repel the Clan Invaders as well.
And by the time of the Clan invasion ten years after the fall of the CC ….
Sorry, but leaving troops upon garrison worlds whilst the Clan Invasion is progressing does not make sense. The FC now has additional forces (not only from former CC units but also from retooling and increasing the production of weapon systems) and the ability to transport them rapidly to the Clan front line (with the addition of the former CC merchant navy).
Why would Hanse Davion just leave them in place whilst this invasion from beyond the periphery is raging? Remember he is the most lethal general and statesman the Inner Sphere has seen in hundreds of years. It is just illogical to consider that he would not respond to this threat in the most lethal way possible.
Hobbling? No, by going down the path of annexing the CC both the FC and the DC military is in a better position to restrict Clan aggression due to their increased numbers of RCTs in comparison to that if they were damaged if you go down the Canon war of 39.
Quite logical …. and in all probability closer to the mark of reality than that of the Cannon history.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
09/26/18 11:56 PM
66.74.61.223
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Sorry, but leaving troops upon garrison worlds whilst the Clan Invasion is progressing does not make sense.
Do you actually play the game? Why do you defend worlds during an invasion? Even worlds on the far side of your nation need to be defended against other houses, and don't even try to suggest there will not be unit commanders that wouldn't violate a cease fire if they thought the worlds they sought were undefended. And this isn't including pirates and such.
Also, you would have to have units on worlds that have just tried to rebel.
But the statement leading to this, is not having to keep certain units in garrison mode, as you could use some of those that were not destroyed from the war that did not happen in the alt.
So you are rewriting the house histories as well. Hanse was a statesman as well as well versed in war. There were more the a few things he did not push forward in raids that could well have netted him worlds and destroyed the enemy's units. It would have cost him some as well. The Galtor campaign being one. He did not try to destroy the combine troops sent there after the supply lines were reopened. Same could be said with the St. Ives Compact. It would have been easier to him to absorb it like he did Tikinov. And that runs counter to the destroy all for the sake of the First Lord position.
Quite logical …. and in all probability closer to the mark of reality than that of the Cannon history.
Not really. If you were running the nation, you would have lost far more then what the canon did. Sending out your forces without knowing who or what you faced, trying to rely on things that may or may not have been in place. And ended up handing the clans the IS, as your forces pulled off other borders would have had to turn around and retake those worlds, or face further invasions by those other houses.
And that statement is another attempt to say canon is wrong. Again. It is the developers game. They say the sun supernovas and destroys the entire IS, then that is what happens. Trying to suggest your version is the best, keeps people from taking your alt seriously.
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Requiem
09/27/18 05:20 AM
58.175.193.140
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In looking for the negative all the time realization comes in knowing that this is all that is known
We have been through this discussion before (many times) regarding unit disbursement during the Clan invasion …. With an agreement as to to the greater enemy and the introduction of a united Star League and a multi-faceted SLDF House units can be effectively moved around without any undue concern.
So, suffice it to say yes more units will be transferred from other garrisons to fight the greater threat of the Clans invasion – despite all the worrying about all the minor issues (they can be ignored for now and fixed later).
Question:- during the Canon story both FC and DC pulled units off their borders with other Houses. Did these other Houses?
a. Exploit the situation and attack their rival houses whilst they were off fighting the Clans.
b. Launch an all-out assault.
c. Do nothing
d. Exploit the situation for an economic gain only
Your answer is? ……….
So why change the answer just because of a preference for uber-clans rather than uber-FC and all things Cannon?
Errr … Hanse Davion is a statesman and a master tactician both on and off the battlefield.
As for Galtor he did what was necessary to win to go any further would have ended in a pyric victory.
As for St. Ives, they were a useful knife in the side of the Capellans – one that he could exploit at a later date.
In understanding the many possibilities it is quite easy to appreciate the devious nature of his intellect.
And no you do not have to destroy all to become First Lord – this is why unions are so important … “FS plus LC equals FC”
Did you ever think he may have wanted a St. Ives Liao to marry a second or third child of his – thus with the annexation of the CC you then have a legitimate ruler by blood and name ( …… with the Family name now becoming Steiner-Davion-Liao) – as a possible future plan to control the annexed Capellan region of space.
Making comparisons between the Canon and my strategy and coming to the conclusion that my strategy would incur greater losses is quite erroneous.
Please re-read my strategies as well as the requested technological developments that I requested in comparison to those that Canon just ignored and it is quite evident that my strategy would inflict greater overall collateral damage than that of the Canon (plus it is more fun for the players as an enlarged campaign than that of the original Cannon story).
Again it is NOT the developers game, it everyone’s game – each of us has the right to tweak the games story to fit our narrative and to find new paths so that it can be more enjoyable to us as individuals and Groups.
Again and Again if you want to run my suggested Alt game good for you … if you want to stay with the cannon then also good for you …. Each of us should have the freedom to explore the universe and just have fun in our own way.
Frankly, I do not care if I’m not taken seriously .. just keep an open mind and if you believe this alt history wold be fun to run then just give a go.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
03/14/19 02:29 AM
58.175.193.140
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The Plan – Capture – Colonize – re-educate and convert into clan citizens.
When invading the Inner Sphere from Clan Space the invasion plans would have called not only for an invasion by the Clan’s military it also would have also necessitated the clan’s civilians to also be utilized during the invasion.
By assuming the control over any captured Inner Sphere planet’s civilian government, provide security for Clan Warriors and to provide an example for what was expected of their new Clan civilians.
Otherwise how could they have assumed control over planets that had populations in the millions or even higher.
Fear alone does not work!
Thus when invading the Inner Sphere the entirety of each invading clan’s civilian population would also have been transported into the deep periphery prior to the invasion and with each planet acquired a percentage of the clans population would then be transposed onto each newly acquired world.
Though the question then must be asked as to who is colonizing who – the Clans repressed civilian culture Vs. the Inner Sphere’s more liberal culture of the Steiner’s or the rigid class of the Japanese Kurita would in all likelihood end up converting the Clan’s citizens to that of an Inner Sphere culture.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/15/19 11:39 PM
66.74.60.165
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It seems the basic thoughts of the clanners is forgotten. They really had no concept of anyone refusing the perfectly correct ways of the clans. Well most in power anyways. For them, the clan ruler is supreme commander of all, and you did as you were told. Honor and discipline made sure of that.
Along with this, they believed the IS civilians were just waiting for someone to remove the leaders of the IS houses.
Only a few realized that was not the case, and a few went to extremes and started killing their own civilians as they started rebelling against them.
Bringing in the civilians would go against most clans ideas, as it would remove the ability to bring in war supplies, even though most thought the 15 waves would be enough to destroy the IS.
Most never dreamed the IS would provide any resistance, and the fact comstar was able to stop them with the proxy fight, destroyed alot of their beliefs that they were invincible.
The idea of the Japanese civilians would covet being part of the clans would be true if they were all fanatical about the system. But that is far from the case in the 3000's. Even Theodore wasn't the model leader along those lines. The warlords running the districts being varied, but some being almost completely against them being loyal to Lutien, while expecting all those under them to be faithful zealots to their rule.
And that didn't exclude the occupied, or taken worlds. Even their own civilians revolted from time to time. Not something that follows in the footsteps of extreme loyalty.
The military would be destroyed if they did. Suicide is expected from those that fail the lord of the lands. Any lost territory would prompt those involved to repent for their failure.
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Requiem
03/16/19 05:06 AM
58.175.193.140
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And this is why the original invasion story is a joke ……
The clan’s gathered Inner Sphere intelligence was completely in error …. they proceeded in capturing planets, leaving an under-strength garrison that in no way could secure a planet in the millions and in no way could even protect their own garrison from a commando raid …..
What if (as per an Alternate story line) they all had the bear’s civilian transports, and it was agreed that for those Clans that that won the right to participate in the invasion would take the majority (95%+) of their civilian dependents with them to re-colonize the inner sphere ….
– as how do you expect the warrior class and their technicians to re-educate an entire Inner Sphere world to their better way of life?
– whist at the same time protecting their warriors encampments
– providing all the services necessary to keep the war progressing (ammunition, Clan Hospitals within the IS, food, and over time ‘Mech/aerospace/elemental production facilities are established and are made operational etc).
– Having a Clan police force would be seen as reducing the chance of a civilian insurrection.
- transferring sibko’s to the IS thus producing replacement personnel quickly and having them transferred to the front with all due alacrity.
Isn’t it a little possible that this makes for a more logical invasion strategy than the one that was provided to us as cannon?
By having clan civilians within the Inner Sphere at the same time as the Invasion army it solves many of the issues that have been demonstrated to as an error within the original story.
- long supply lines;
- sibko replacement personnel and the time taken to transfer them to the front line;
- garrison security;
- world re-education and conformity to clan principles;
- re-supply issues from ammunition to ‘Mechs etc;
As it has been shown that each wold could only have approximately 15 Mechs / 10-15 elementals / 2-5 aerospace fighters as a garrison force otherwise over time their forces would be severely depleted by where they finally ended the invasion
Plus it does provide for each clan the opportunity to produce more living space for their dependents and what about transferring consumables / food etc back to Clan Space as I doubt they were able to take enough seeds for all varieties of food during the exodus – so now is the chance to fix this situation – Clan civilians can send back many new varieties of food and livestock thus improving the welfare of civilians upon the clan home worlds.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/16/19 03:53 PM
66.74.60.165
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It may make more sense, for the alt.
But here are some things to consider.
As you are changing the basic ways the clans do things, I can see it backfiring dramatically.
If the freeborns and even trueborn families were out from under pure military rule, what is to say they don't follow the IS ways and revolt against the military? Encourage or even engage in the commando raids as well as give out the secrets to hitting the warriors easier and less likely to be punished?
Also, removing their base population causes issues with other clans moving into their territory under the pretense of making sure the bandit caste, or even civilians don't get the idea they are free to do so. Even seizing factories and such, could very well cripple the invading clans. The idea of destroy a hated foe, as well as showing the rest, they were the wrong clans to send would be a strong basis for doing so.
I seriously doubt the sibko issue would be moved from the home worlds. The genetic materials would be too much at risk in the IS, as well as the space would be needed for military equipment.
Building factories in the IS may be risky as well. Losing the world to the IS would give the houses access to clan technology at it's source. Not just the finished product but the ways to make it. Some tech could be done thru research, but the lighter missile launchers? That is definitely something the IS would love to learn. The compact things like XL engines and even heat sinks could change alot of how the war would go.
The issue with security forces comes from not knowing just how much the clans had in reserve. It may well be, they had more then enough to cover the security, but that would go against the prevention of waste. Why have hundreds of PGC's when the only threat was other clans?
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Requiem
03/16/19 11:53 PM
58.175.193.140
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Yes, clan civilians may revolt against their overlords …. However, could clan warriors even contemplate such an action by their helots?
In my opinion they are too blinked to even contemplate that such an action could occur.
There could have even been an agreement between the Clans …. that whilst away “upon the crusade” their landholdings would have been secure within clan realms and to attack whilst away would be considered a breach of their honour.
As for the genetic materials …. Yes they would never leave clan space … but the children within their sibkos are another matter entirely. Placing a sibko school within the Inner Sphere can be considered a possibility.
As for building factories … these could have been built within the deep periphery or within the Inner Sphere as the Clans are still quite blinkered as to the ability of the Inner Sphere forces …. In all reality isn’t it more believable that the clans consider themselves quite invulnerable to an attack by the forces of the Inner Sphere thus any factory they establish will be quite secure against capture?
Thus why not build factory complexes that could keep the “crusade” moving forward and a faster pace? as is this not the goal - the race to Terra - First Place is "Il-Clan" and any advantage that could be obtained to ensure this is a good thing?
As for security forces – the number of military units that were allowed was a fixed amount (that is until they cheated by saying they could have other non-front line forces) …. However police forces are civilian (non-military) and as such do not come under any of the amount each clan determined to invade with … thus they could secure their bases as well as securing the indigenous population of each world captured.
By adopting this idea it opens the clan space to the commerce of the Inner Spheres goods
It also allows for a more comprehensive invasion story …. Not only can you discuss the issues of the warriors upon the front line but you can also now discuss the civilians and how they adapt to their new neighbours.
Partisan forces could now include not only those from the Inner Sphere but also those from the Clans civilians – you could speed up the scientific revolt - have it occur not only upon he clan worlds but also within the Inner Sphere
The Reaving War – could be Clans against their civilians – with the new SLDF attempting to assist them and guard them against the warriors of the Clans (similar to the UN Peace Keepers?)
This could make for a unique Alternate History for those who like to conduct their war games within …
For me this does make for a unique new setting to consider the future from …
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/17/19 06:34 PM
66.74.60.165
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The clans thought everything in the IS was so inferior, that to even attempt to use it was beyond wasteful.
In the alt, it could well be the clan leaders would allow their civilians to get out from under their rule by moving them into the IS.
And that would also make the idea of being immune to the normal trials of possession that happens in the clan home worlds.
This could also allow the leaders to consider wasting materials by building factories outside of clan space.
The waste of moving the sikcos closer could also be done in an alt environment as well.
This does change the basic training of the clans leaders. Which would require a far more extensive change in their history.
The 'cheating' of using pgc's to garrison worlds was planned for already. They are never bid in, but are used when the prize is taken. There isn't anything in the bid about how much supplies you are going to use, or even limiting the direction you will come from. Even changing mechs in the units that will participate has been done. Vlad using a Timberwolf when they took Phelan is a good example of that.
The issue that seems to be forming is hobbling the clan forces, as the writers did with the IS forces for the invasion.
The issue with the SLDF defending the civvies in the Reaving War is distance and time. But with the changes already being made in the history, the Reaving War would not have come about. The SLDF would slowly neuter the clan warriors ways of doing things, so taking warriors from other clans would not be likely. Either all would rise up against the SLDF or a civil war would come about, with the hard core clanners against their bretheren as well as the SLDF. Much like crusaders against wardens, more then falcons against other crusader clans.
As a side note, it is likely the clan leaders knew the civvies would revolt if they got away from the military, as the Dark Caste would be the example. But again. This would be different from clan to clan, such as the invasion garrisons were.
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Requiem
03/17/19 10:11 PM
1.158.130.13
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Thanks ghostrider for the great read …. Very much appreciated.
For an RPG game this would add a new dimension to the game that many (I believe) would find interesting.
The gradual change of the Clan civilians would also be interesting
Some would come to desire an Inner Sphere way of life;
Some would cling to the clan way of life (hating everything to do with the Inner Sphere); and
Some would just go with the flow (as it were).
Yes, I agree when designing this new Alt Universe I must be very careful not to hobble the Clans or the IS forces.
Though I would find it very interesting to consider how the Jade Falcon’s civilians would react to the Lyrans and the Smoke Kitties to the Kuritan’s way of life.
Culture shock by all concerned, initially, followed by a growing admiration and respect … maybe / maybe not?
and the spies on both sides would have a difficult time of blending in ….. which could even lead to even some comical moments if you set it up correctly due to a misunderstanding of cultural norms.
as for the historical component of the game …. revolution / crack down by the warrior caste must be considered …. But there must be other scenarios, such as information gained by the Clans being sent to the great houses …. Resistance forces both pro-house / clans forming an alliance against the warrior caste … shadow war with rival spy agencies ….
An example of a new RPG game’s mission – a what if as it were could be considered ….
If you put sibkos within the IS – what would happen if IS forces started capturing entire sibko schools of children and were able to get them out of Clan space and hide them upon one of the great house’s many planets – rescue mission or consider them to be bond's men and women?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
03/18/19 01:21 AM
66.74.60.165
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there is one more category of civilian outlook. Those that hate both sides. They don't want IS ways, but want to get out from under their overlords.
Being shown there is a major difference in life then they experienced under clan rule would change alot of how they are dealt with. There is no doubt about that.
The comparison of the way of the warrior should appeal to the crusaders some, but might be taken as an insult to clan honor. Play acting so to speak. And we know some of the warlords would disgust the clans.
The falcons. I don't think they would find much worth praising in the Commonwealth, as social generals run things, with mercs being used by the FS side of it. Though some units may actually gain their acceptance.
I would think spies from the IS would have a bit of an easier time infiltrating the clans, if you keep some of the main story intact. The Dragoons line with Phelan as well. Then again comstar would have to play their part. They did have spies infiltrating the clans, as it lead to the exodus road being mapped. Without that, then you may have issues with the IS side.
Now if you go with some of the novel's hinting that clan wolf was working on using spies, then you have a can of worms to deal with.
The idea of training some children to the ways of the clans, then drop them in a war zone to be taken in as orphans, may well give you the result you are looking for. Long term assets.
Not sure if bond's person fits, as that normally deals with military assets, which children normally aren't considered until they pass their trial of position. Though you could enrage some leaders as their genetic material is taken by the IS.
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Requiem
04/18/19 03:07 AM
1.158.130.13
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A rough idea of what I am attempting to accomplish based upon an alternate historical context …
Dominant Battletech history as from the year 3000 onwards …. There are still many small wars popping up all throughout the Inner Sphere and Beyond.
4th Succession War – Includes Comstar’s Interdiction of the FS
St. Ives State formed
(Comstar / FC – shadow war – introduction of Black Box technology)
FWL – Andurien provice and Canopus form a new state …. etc
The Capellan’s Fall War – CC amalgamated into the FC
Free Wolds leaders – assassinated – Civil War ensures
Found – Helm Computer Core – distributed throughout the IS – all houses begin attempts to retrieve information contained there-in.
All Houses – begin improving technology
Clan Invasion –
First Wave – Turtle Bay – Retaliatory Kamikaze Strike by Kurita
Second Wave - Introduction of large calibre anti-elemental rifles
Introduction of large scale vehicle counter measures (attrition based warfare.
Introduction of commando raids upon rear echelon Clan bases – no security
Third wave – Introduction of both Patrol Dropships with Naval Weapons and Fenrir (Strike Groups) and Large Scale Aerospace Fighter strike groups (armed with Nuclear Weapons?).
Introduction of a new tactic – Aerospace fighters are striking at Clan transport Jump-ships – Due to the lack of Jumpships many Clan’s forward momentum is slowing / stopping.
Fourth Wave (onwards) – Due to the Clan’s Sibko training programs all Clan Forces will begin to experience shortages of Aerospace Pilots, Elementals and MechWarriors.
They are also experiencing resupply shortages (Fenrir and the Kurita equivalent) – and the loss of their rear echelon bases (commando raids – capture of Clan personnel) - Clans find that they need to reconquer First and Second Wave worlds due to the elimination of their Security Bases by Commando forces.
Re-establishment of the Star League - due to the co-ordination of the Inner Sphere forces Clans begin to experience setbacks.
ComStar – Civil War – Focht gains control
ComStar declares for a Trial of Possession regarding Terra - Battle of Tukarid – ComStar Wins – for the next 15 years all Clans are not allowed to proceed beyond Tukarid.
Whilst ComStar’s military is engaged elsewhere – Word of Black infiltrates and captures Terra – at the same time WOB establishes five colonies upon former SL worlds abandoned during the Amaris crisis – they begin establishing military technological industrial complexes upon these worlds.
The Star League and Comstar come to a long term plan regarding the Clans.
The new Star League offers Word of Blake and all the Periphery States a position within the Star League.
Plan – long term – New anti-clan RCts, RACTs, Commando Infantry, pocket warships - together with new omni-mechs / omni-fighters / omni-vehicles / the introduction of Inner Sphere combat infantry power armour.
ARDC established – Kell is given control.
St. Ives – Kai, Cassandra and Kali Liao are engaged in a civil war with Sun-Tzu for the control of the St Ives State.
The Clans are also re-building their forces - however supply runs are becoming more difficult for them as with the establishment of more Fenrir (and Kurita’s) units the run through the deep periphery is becoming more treacherous.
Clan Jade Falcon and Clan Wolf enter into war - due to the heavy damage both receive at each other’s hands the Star League launches an invasion upon these two Clans alone the resulting war forces both Inner Sphere Clans to be assimilated into the SLDF.
Clan Nova Cat and Clan Ghost Bear initiate plans to transfer their entire populations (and technology) from Clan Space to the Inner Sphere – request made for becoming a member of the Star League.
Remaining Clan Inner Sphere forces find their position un-defensible – retreat to Wave 1 and 2 worlds to form a strong defensible position against the Inner Sphere.
Clan Home Worlds – with the elimination of four Clans from the original invasion it is decided four additional clans can replace those that have be abjured or assimilated into the SLDF.
Clan technology is distributed throughout the Inner Sphere - -Front line Military units for the Inner Sphere Omni-Weapons pods are updated with Clan level technology - weapons
Thirteen to Fourteen years have passed by now of the original fifteen years truce.
Sun-Tzu continues with his guerrilla activities to re-establish “his” CC – he is finally tracked down within the FWL and he and his terrorist military are killed to a man by a joint FWL / Kali Liao military strike.
With massive new forces and Omni-weapons etc. the SLDF launces a massive assault upon the remaining Inner Clans – overwhelmed their remaining forces are forced to retreat into the Deep Periphery. At the furthest extreme of the Deep Periphery the remaining IS Clans forces make a stand with the four new Clan forces.
The SLDF follow the Clans into the Deep Periphery – where they are joined by Fenrir (and Kurita’s variant)
War ensures within the Deep Periphery upon unpopulated worlds – war bogs down and becomes a war of attrition – clans are slowly falling back – though the Home Clans could still
(Nt:- at this stage Katherine will take control of the FC with her brother, Victor, upon the front lines – her mother’s death will look like natural causes …)
Secondary SLDF strike group assembled – mission - strike at the Clan Home Worlds – and open a second front before the Clans can send a relief force to the Inner Sphere – mission – destroy the Clans ability to conduct war through the destruction of the majority of their manufacturing facilities.
Some-time during this war a “rogue” Comstar Military Units will infiltrate Terra (in a manner simmer to that of what the WOB did) – War upon Terra starts between ComStar and WOB for the Control of Terra.
WOB forces forces to retreat – they seek asylum within the FWL (whom they have established a close relationship over the years)
FWL military begin defensive operations against “rogue” ComStar forces who are attempting to genocide all former WOB supporters.
After many …. many years of war …. within the Deep Periphery
Clan’s Civilian casts upon the clan’s home worlds rebell against their military caste overlords – with the aid of the SLDF they throw off the yoke of Warrior superiority – Clan Warrior Genetics experimentation and the use of “iron-wombs” becomes illegal.
SLDF have effectively forced the remaining Warrior Clans to disappear into deep space rather than be absorbed / destroyed into the deep space (The same as the Wolverines?)
Note: at the same time the SLDF was involved in the war against the Clans – they were quickly followed by homesteaders / large corporations – establishing new colonies on behalf of all the Inner Sphere Great Houses … (wild wild west within the Deep Periphery )
Upon Victor’s return to the FC he finds he no longer has a throne – Katherine has assumed control over the FC – Victor however assumes control of the Deep Periphery Worlds conquered in the name of the name of the FC – (Omika Kurita travels secretly to Victor where they are wed – and establishing the Steiner – Davion-Kurita Line) and at the same time she takes many of the Kurita Deep Periphery worlds with her to establish the new state ruled by Victor and Omi.
Also Clan Nova Cat defect to Victor’s and Omika’s new realm.
Kurita Vs. Ghost Bear – War over Rasalhague.
Andurien and Canopus Vs. Taurian Concordat due to disputes over newly colonized worlds.
After a break of many years say 3100 approx. …. (many of the main characters will now have had children of their own - and they are now involved)
Katherine, envious of the prosperity Victor and Omika’s new realm have established ….
attempts to use the army of the SLDF as her proxy to gain control over her brothers world – due to a crisis of her own making.
However when evidence is uncovered that Katherine is to blame – and she is no longer allowed the SLDF military a campaign to amalgamate this realm into her FC is launched by the FCAF military units.
Katherine attempts to use the army of the SLDF as her proxy to
However Arthur with the assistance of the Sandoval family (whom Arthur has wed into) declare he is the First Price of the Federated Suns – citing the emergency clause to separate the two realms FS / LC - he declares the FS once more re-born.
Civil War ensures – the children of Hans and Melissa choose sides in this war.
At the same time the Kuritan Deep Periphery realm declare independence from the IS Kuritan Realm – war ensures. However, Clan Ghost Bear and Rasalhague forces align themselves with the Deep Periphery Realm – war widens to include these forces.
Meanwhile back in former Clan Space – the remaining Clans have forces have returned – they attempt to re-conquer their former worlds and helots and reimpose Clan doctrine.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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Requiem
08/06/19 05:10 AM
1.158.206.105
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The One year of peace – during the Invasion ……
In the fog of war – logistics can be a problem - historically at the 250 mile mark the logistics tend to run out.
Thus units begin to halt at the 250 mile mark - This interlude however is deceptive, the halt is not due to becoming bogged down by the enemy, it is due to moving too fast to allow their logistics to keep up.
Units are not bogged down – they are resting but more importantly they are reaming.
The one year interlude is historically due to the death of the il-Khan and the return to Clan Space of all Khans and their sa-khans to elect a new il-Khan to continue with the war.
However in the future we see a future election conducted by an automatic HPG network connecting the IS with Clan Space – so if they could do this in the near future why not at this time also?
This indicates an apparent issue either when the il-Khan died to a kamikaze attack or in the future.
So early on the Clans Blitzkrieg estoppel be due to the same problem as the Germans in 1940 – and allowing the Allies to remove 350,000 soldiers from Dunkirk – their logistics had effectively run out and they needed to return to Clan space to iron out the issues. And there was no HPG grid network established at that time.
Whereas when a second il-Khan was required in the near future the HPG network had finally been established.
So why were neither of these issues truly explored?
Also if logistics were truly included within the game would you see that you cannot have a large force and move quickly at the same time – you need a small force to move quickly or a large force that moves at a slower rate?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/06/19 01:09 PM
66.74.60.165
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They had the HPGs on the ships. It might not be like a planetary based set up, but they had some in place.
But this might go back to their original thoughts, of the war would be over quickly, so they didn't think it was needed.
They still had ships making runs, as they didn't eat food from the IS for some of the clans.
In this instance, they purposefully left the logistics low, so they had could stop the clans with it.
Except the distances in the clan example, the fourth war had the logistics figured out with the invasion of the CC. Gutted the economy to do so, which is another example of the lack of ships in the IS, but the war had what they needed. And what do you know... Stockpiled before the war.
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Requiem
08/06/19 08:20 PM
1.158.206.105
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QUOTE: But this might go back to their original thoughts, of the war would be over quickly, so they didn't think it was needed.
Blitzkrieg war – blitz – lightning and krieg – war
so why stop for a year?
Surely the Clans Khan's subordinates are more than up to the task of continuing the lightning war if their logistics were not the problem?
Why do the Clans even need the presence of their Khan / sa-khan within the IS if they have a HPG network in place – why not teleconference the war as the US did in the Afgan Conflict?
Or did they also take with them all their command staff – those who had won their last name for the vote – were their presence also required in the first vote / Because they were not required in the second HPG vote?
And if the Clans were without their command blood named elements for over a year – why didn’t the IS counter attack – yes the IS had sustained damage, however how could the Clans keep this information, that their command were no longer personnel were no longer in the IS, from all the IS intelligence agencies for over a year …. ?
Without their command staff all the Clans are now vulnerable to a massive counter attack …..
This just appears to be a little bit strange once you start to dig into it …..
QUOTE: They still had ships making runs, as they didn't eat food from the IS for some of the clans.
Frozen dinners sent from Clan Space and are transported on ice for over six months …… yay! …. you can understand why MREs are given the nick name of Meals Rejected by the Enemy!
Again why were there no flanking manoeuvres utilised to disrupt Clan Logistics by the IS? – no understanding of tactics whatsoever – someone should have read / incorporated WWII History into the game.
QUOTE: which is another example of the lack of ships in the IS
Compare the Fourth Succession War with the Clan Invasion – only about one tenth to one quarter of the Jump ships that were used in the Fourth Succession War were used in the Clan Invasion – there is also the point all IS Great Houses were now building in mass new Jump Ships and were also starting to build Warships at this time - so that is a real non-issue.
QUOTE: And what do you know... Stockpiled before the war.
Logistics is the bead-rock / cornerstone from which all military actions are determined – all military forces must have a permanent logistical network to keeping their forces in the field for extended periods of time.
Thus there must at all times, for all the great Houses and the Clans, be forward bases from which they re-supply their forces – cut them and how many days / weeks of expendables / food / spare parts do they have before things start getting critical?
Just another lack of understanding of tactics etc. that was completely ignored by the invasion canon writing …..
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (08/06/19 08:28 PM)
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ghostrider
08/06/19 10:43 PM
66.74.60.165
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Probably an agreement to head back, and deny glory to any other then the khans for victories?
Their officers were good for single combats, but lacked skills in multi planet offenses?
To make sure their gains weren't lost if the enemy pushes back, and the front line units were behind the lines, as garrison duty falls to the PGCs. There are others, but for now, this is a start.
Why do the Clans even need the presence of their Khan / sa-khan within the IS if they have a HPG network in place
Still having issues figuring out the clans? There is no glory sitting behind the lines. And with the initial drive, the HPG network wasn't all there. They had them on the warships, but that didn't mean a full network, as said before.
Also, clan thinking suggests no one can do anything better then me, so don't bother giving them a chance.
Because they were not required in the second HPG vote?
Reread the books. The second vote was rushed as well as the situation in the IS required them to be there. So they did not risk sending back the unit commanders.
Again. The IS didn't attack during that time as they lacked intel on the clans. What is so hard to understand with this? The DC/FC didn't have a handle on the clans at this time. Throwing forces at the enemy without knowing where they were would have been disasterous. You know the intel and outcome, now drop that and look at it from the time frame in the game. NO INTEL. Comstar was feeding false intel as well. So your field ops were sending you a unit was there, but your received the unit wasn't there. And forget the black boxes. They were left out of this. Do the same.
Again why were there no flanking manoeuvres utilised to disrupt Clan Logistics by the IS? – no understanding of tactics whatsoever – someone should have read / incorporated WWII History into the game.
Again. Lack of intel and ships to do so. Risking any without knowing where the enemy warships were was stupidly foolish. Drop the history, as it does NOT apply here. WWII had a few days worth of lag. Not weeks worth to get forces to jump points and jump to where needed. And having forces at the jump point is horrible on moral, as well as risking them to any sort of attack. For a 'military' historian, facts seem to be lacking or maybe the looking glass needs to be cleaned. Maybe if Patton left his army in France when Germany first invaded, they would have been stopped. Oh wait. They would have been dead.
only about one tenth to one quarter of the Jump ships that were used in the Fourth Succession War were used in the Clan Invasion
Where did you come up with this? There was a massive movement of forces from the FS to reinforce the line in the LC. So they may not have been on the front lines, they were in the process of moving things to it. Oh yeah. Moving to the front isn't considered as taxing the fleets, just combat.
MRE didn't improve in time? Assumption here.
Thus there must at all times, for all the great Houses and the Clans, be forward bases from which they re-supply their forces – cut them and how many days / weeks of expendables / food / spare parts do they have before things start getting critical?
So you missed the parts where the clans DID have bases up for supplies, as well as having them being moved at all times. Guess rereading the entire history is in order. The canon history. So many facts are being 'forgotten', it isn't funny anymore.
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Requiem
08/07/19 12:48 AM
1.158.206.105
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QUOTE: …deny glory to any others ….. Their officers were good for single combats, but lacked skills in multi planet offenses? …. clan thinking suggests no one can do anything better than me
Consolidating their front lines whilst they gallivanted back to Clan Space was the reason the Khans gave to their warriors. However fear of being out-shined by a younger more capable warrior who could then issue a challenge of position …. This sounds reasonable, within Clan society when you are Khan you must always fear those below you who will one day replace you … there is no job security when you are Khan of a Clan.
It is a wonder the clans could operate as a structured military force when you consider that ever warrior is out to get the next rung in the ladder …. and to get this rung you need to defeat your superior in battle! It’s a wonder more of their warriors didn’t manoeuvre their rivals into an enemy kill box to get rid of them to get the next rung on the corporate Clan ladder.
QUOTE: Because they were not required in the second HPG vote?
Disagree strongly, the Clans entire warrior society is based upon adhering to their ritual and tradition.
In the first they had to all be present for the vote
In the second they were not – again we see the game developers changing the game to meet their own ends – they created a society and the rules for that society and yet when it becomes inconvenient they disregarded it – if they went on the first then they must go on the second due to Clan ritual and tradition.
This has occurred many times throughout the game and shows how shortcuts are used to fit their storyline.
A complete lack of understanding into their own developed society.
QUOTE: The IS didn't attack during that time as they lacked intel on the clans.
What were the leaders of the ID doing with Wolf’s Dragoons at this time?
How easy could this information be distributed to all unit commanders on the front line?
QUOTE: Again. Lack of intel and ships to do so. Risking any without knowing where the enemy warships were was stupidly foolish.
Strongly disagree – Wolf Packs of both the Germans and the US during WW2 demonstrates this statement does not hold water.
And again you need to trust the man on the ground – no military can be micromanaged – go back and look at the fist treatise statement within Sun Tzu The Art of War.
QUOTE: Maybe if Patton left his army in France when Germany first invaded, they would have been stopped. Oh wait. They would have been dead.
At this stage America was not in the war …. Patten was in his barracks back in the USA.
And yet the British got 350,000 off the Beaches!
QUOTE: only about one tenth to one quarter of the Jump ships that were used in the Fourth Succession War were used in the Clan Invasion. Where did you come up with this?
When you look at the numbers of units involved in the Fourth Succession War and that of the Clan Invasion – No more than about a quarter of the units are involved in the Clan to Succession War – there is a huge difference – also look at the units that existed in the Fourth Succession War that somehow just disappeared by the time of the Clan Invasion – why did the game developers do this? Hobbling the game comes to mind.
And didn’t they also have to move in the Fourth Succession War as they did it the Clan Invasion?
MREs are all bad – there is just the spectrum of bad to very bad – though the rat pack chocolate / jam and condensed milk in a tube is always good – Though I have found the older they get the better they are when it comes to tinned meals (go figure?)
QUOTE: So you missed the parts where the clans DID have bases up for supplies,
Sorry didn’t miss anything – what was missed is why these bases were not raided on a more constant basis by IS forces (either as a bombing run by bombers or as a snatch and grab by ground orces). And don’t go saying the IS intelligence operatives didn’t know where they were – if they are in the IS and on planet the resistance should have gotten off a black box message - this information should have been sent – my Deep Periphery strike units should have hunted them down in the Deep Periphery – that just leaves their Navy – were they kept permanently in space? If that is so why didn’t anyone use Big Wing Strikes against these ships?
Again this shows a woefully written canon history!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/07/19 01:56 PM
66.74.60.165
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What were the leaders of the ID doing with Wolf’s Dragoons at this time?
How easy could this information be distributed to all unit commanders on the front line?
For the most part this isn't intel on how to fight them, but where they are at. Do you jump a counter assault force into Coventry, only to find out the enemy has now taken your base because you are gone.
Did the concentrate their main forces to defend an important world, that you are going after?
You will lose most of that force, as having say 3 clusters of front line omnis are there, and you have just a regiment of mechs.
Equipment was a big issue as well, and not every world would give you the chance to do ambushes like hiding a large force to hit a single star.
Strongly disagree – Wolf Packs of both the Germans and the US during WW2 demonstrates this statement does not hold water.
Apples and oranges. On one world, where you can take your vessel home rather quickly and not have to travel from a jump point to the world or back again, you are relying on the jumpships. A simple force of war vessels, not just warships but other assault dropships as well as fighters, you lose the ability to get back home.
This is also true if you are landed and they take your dropship. So this isn't a sneak attack scenario, where to fire from underwater, to use a weapon that runs unseen, underwater (for the most part.)
Also, you know WHERE the enemy is probably going to be. Not some stab at 10 or 20 locations within your staging area.
So distance and the multitude of locations stops that cold. And in this case, not having the resources to do this. CANON VERSION. Arguing the alt nullifies all your arguments.
An alt is what you want. Reality and history do not apply.
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Requiem
08/07/19 03:26 PM
1.158.206.105
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QUOTE: For the most part this isn't intel on how to fight them, (Clans)
The way I remember it ….. Wolf provided all the information so that all of the Leaders of the IS understood their new enemy - their culture, their history, their traditions etc. leading up to how they conduct war. This led up to a Clan trial …. How Victor came to own his Clan Mech “Promethius”.
What they also should have understood at this stage is how the Clan sibko training system works as well as the number of graduates each Clan can produce each year – this should have been a huge red flag to the leaders of the inner sphere that the entire clans military CANNOT sustain a war of attrition when they have in comparison an academy system.
So yes, this information should have been readily transferrable!
So yes, there could have been a counter attack!
At this stage it should have been readily available that a war of attrition utilizing mass vehicle assaults / adapting a WW2 Kesselring Line / sending in a Force to engage the clans supply lines in the Deep Periphery / Establishing Big Wing Assault Forces against Clan Jump Ships (Small Number) / Discussing the Kurita use of Nukes post Turtle Bay / creating an anti-elemental Infantry assault weapon / utilizing commando raids and partisan raids in the rear to destabilize the Clans (WW2 SOE) – especially assassination tactics upon clan warriors outside their vehicles / kidnapping Clan technicians / going after clan re-supply bases – should have been considered.
And in all probability post year of truce the IS forces should have blunted the Clan advance as well as reversals should have started shortly thereafter.
QUOTE: simple force of war vessels, not just warships but other assault dropships as well as fighters, you lose the ability to get back home.
And they are also using Jump Ships - That battle was never fought due to poor writing – though I can say it would be an interesting battle – especially when the Wolf Packs start using area nuclear strikes.
QUOTE: So distance and the multitude of locations stops that cold. And in this case, not having the resources to do this. CANON VERSION. Arguing the alt nullifies all your arguments.
An alt is what you want. Reality and history do not apply.
The Clans Logistics is far more susceptible than that of the Inner Sphere!
The Clans are moving in a straight line so understanding their next target world can be seen as readily identifiable.
What about the missing IS units that were in the 20 Year Handbook and before, but when the new House books came out for whatever reason they no longer existed (Hobbling the game much?)
The Canon version is without doubt a simplistic and totally inaccurate view of how the the invasion should have been considered. You need to readily suspend belief through-out the entire campaign – where were the mass vehicle assaults upon the clans? - it requires a massive re-write.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/07/19 10:49 PM
66.74.60.165
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What they also should have understood at this stage is how the Clan sibko training system works as well as the number of graduates each Clan can produce each year – this should have been a huge red flag to the leaders of the inner sphere that the entire clans military CANNOT sustain a war of attrition when they have in comparison an academy system.
So yes, this information should have been readily transferrable!
So yes, there could have been a counter attack!
Knowing how to shoot, doesn't mean you know where the enemy is. This seems to be something comprehension is lacking. And without warships, the ability to sustain a war is mute. If you can not reach the enemy, then you will lose.
Part of what has allowed the U.S. to avoid the major land battles that have ravaged the other nations, especially Asia. Now say you want to invade, but where do you send your transports? Which are is going to have military forces that will sink them without a problem? Where do you send a massed fleet, only to find out no one is there?
If you are so great at this, why not tell us where the next conflict will be, and when. It seems you know everything like that, and so the game characters should.
And they could have counter attacked. And lost more then they could afford.
At this stage it should have been readily available that a war of attrition utilizing mass vehicle assaults. They had figured this out, as it was suggested having vehicles weaken the clans before the mech forces engage. Reread the history, as you are either forgetting things, or purposefully leaving out facts to continue to push that the developers don't know anything.
You asked if the ship construction needed a rewrite. Now it has become like most of the threads. The alt says this so it must be done.
Did they hobble the game? Or did they decide that there would be no way the clans could threaten the IS with a few hundred more regiments?
The Canon version is without doubt a simplistic and totally inaccurate view of how the the invasion should have been considered. When did the creator of a games universe be totally inaccurate on that games history? When did someone changing everything to turn out their way, become the ONLY way the story should have developed? If the game had gone logically, the DC would have destroyed the FS in the first way. The massacre was no more horrifying then nuking worlds. So have you gone to robotech and told them their story was garbage? How about Halo? Mass effect? Warhammer 40k? Did you write to any of the shows and say they had to reshoot the entire series as it did not turn out the way you wanted it to?
I guess Star Wars needs a rewrite. It didn't turn out like it should have.
You are only here to argue things that does not exist in the canon universe.
This concept of the larger ships is completely opposite of what the game needs. Sooner or later, only one side has them. There is no balance to this at that point. Complain about the clans having warships, yet you are trying to propose the same logic, but don't think it is the same mistake. Probably because you came up with it.
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Requiem
08/08/19 05:34 AM
1.158.206.105
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QUOTE: So yes, this information should have been readily transferrable! So yes, there could have been a counter attack!
Wolf Dragoons meeting with the all the heads of the Great Houses during the Clan’s one year pause – do you believe Wolf left information out or he explained everything?
If he explained everything – the Sibko training program was included.
Also didn’t Wolf put all the heirs of the Great Houses through a quick representation of the Sibko program? (Victor, Sun Tzu, etc) …. Thus the sibko system must have been discussed in detail.
If the Sibko Training system was discussed in detail its inherent weakness must have been obvious and as such a tactics should have changed to a war of attrition plus mass assassination of all warriors upon conquered worlds by partisans / commandoes using high powered sniper rifles – over time their loss depletion could not equal replacement numbers – thus you get shrinkage of overall force numbers.
Yes the losses by the IS would have been great but over time the Clans would have fallen.
QUOTE: Knowing how to shoot, doesn't mean you know where the enemy is.
By the start of the year of peace doesn’t the IS know every world the Clans have captured in the IS?
QUOTE: And without warships, the ability to sustain a war is mute.
My Alt Universe – PT Dropships armed with naval lasers and capital missiles
Outside of the Alt Universe – Big wing fighter squadrons plus Alamo Missiles (5KT Nuke).
I would say the IS can very easily reach out and touch the Clan’s Warships!
QUOTE: why not tell us where the next conflict will be, and when
Easy – the IS established multiple WW2 Kesselring Lines upon the worlds in front of the Clans Invasion Corridor (multiple lines in depth)– there they mass vehicles / VTOLS / regular aircraft with bombs etc as well as Infantry (and their new portable anti elemental weapons) and lie in wait for the next clan invasion – they they conduct war games to simulate the attrition warfare tactics.
So when the Clans kick off their next wave they will be in for a very big surprise.
At the same time this kicks off the assassinations begin all throughout the Clans rear worlds!
QUOTE: They had figured this out, as it was suggested having vehicles weaken the clans before the mech forces engage.
Wolcott
QUOTE: Or did they decide that there would be no way the clans could threaten the IS with a few hundred more regiments?
Depends on who is writing the story.
QUOTE: id you write to any of the shows and say they had to reshoot the entire series as it did not turn out the way you wanted it to?
Didn’t have to their story line is quite accurate given their games history. Battletech however has so many holes in it it’s not funny.
QUOTE: This concept of the larger ships is completely opposite of what the game needs.
A Navy requires a mix of all ship types to make it effective.
They are all however susceptible to a variety of attack strategies.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/08/19 12:50 PM
66.74.60.165
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If the Sibko Training system was discussed in detail its inherent weakness must have been obvious and as such a tactics should have changed to a war of attrition plus mass assassination of all warriors upon conquered worlds by partisans / commandoes using high powered sniper rifles – over time their loss depletion could not equal replacement numbers – thus you get shrinkage of overall force numbers.
As this is supposed to be a story of real life, not some numbers game, even house Kurita was not going to blindly send millions to their deaths just to overwhelm the clans. And without doing so, they did stop the clans. And yes. They could have started pushing them back, but the possibility of the clans taking that as a violation of the truce kept them from doing so.
Now as an accountant, here are some numbers you have to think on. How much in C-bills would this whole operation cost? Manpower? Equipment? Take a few years to build up and get the better equipment out to the troops, so you don't have to send a company to deal with a single star, and hope you win.
And the IS would not stoop to killing children as a main target. So suggesting they would is just as bad as the execution of the Wolves in exile situation. But then you are not following the mistakes of canon.
By the start of the year of peace doesn’t the IS know every world the Clans have captured in the IS?
Worlds yes. Where their forces are? No. And honestly, they weren't completely sure of the borderlands. Comstar faking transmissions could very well mean your staging area was actually under clan rule, so your units coming in with small numbers would be wiped out before they even got to the world. But then being the tactician you are, this was considered before screaming about it.
The IS didn't know of the clans would push forward or not. Just because it was said they do things a certain way, it does not mean they were doing the exact thing 40 years into the future. Each new khan has their own ideas.
Make this pure alt or pure canon. Arguing the faults of canon, while using the alt as the basis isn't very bright. In my alt, we have better ranges on all weapons, as a single click in open terrain is completely stupid. I brought up the fact the ranges were stupid, but did not say it had to be changed. Didn't say my alt had over 2 klicks for some weapons.
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ghostrider
08/08/19 01:01 PM
66.74.60.165
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Easy – the IS established multiple WW2 Kesselring Lines upon the worlds in front of the Clans Invasion Corridor (multiple lines in depth)– there they mass vehicles / VTOLS / regular aircraft with bombs etc as well as Infantry (and their new portable anti elemental weapons) and lie in wait for the next clan invasion – they they conduct war games to simulate the attrition warfare tactics.
So when the Clans kick off their next wave they will be in for a very big surprise.
At the same time this kicks off the assassinations begin all throughout the Clans rear worlds!
Canon story did no such thing. Oh yeah. Stuck in the fantasy, and not dealing with the canon lines. Well atleast not who wins and loses.
Now assassination. This is not the same as headhunting. And when the clans figure it out, there would be total warfare from the clans. They would not abide by any rules, as the entire IS would be label as Dezgra. So either alt, or canon. Take your pick and stick with it. And your alt has been changed a few times since being on the board. So it isn't like they are flawless.
QUOTE: They had figured this out, as it was suggested having vehicles weaken the clans before the mech forces engage.
Wolcott.
In the novel, the Hanse was talking to his advisors on it. They used the vehicles to good effect, as clanners refused to engage them if any mechs were on the field. Trellwan had started the range nullifying ideas.
A Navy requires a mix of all ship types to make it effective.
They are all however susceptible to a variety of attack strategies.
So they don't have it now? They have yet to make a floating fortress on the seas. Well besides some carriers, though they are not invulnerable. Mix of ships isn't just size but abilities to go with them. If the PT boats had anti air guns on them, how many of the larger ships wouldn't have been hit by strafes?
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Requiem
08/08/19 07:41 PM
1.158.206.105
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QUOTE: As this is supposed to be a story of real life, not some numbers game,
Please indicate a war where numbers are not considered?
Vietnam is a good example where numbers were misused to indicate a false impression of what was going on …….
If an attrition policy was suggested I believe Kurita would have been first in line to adopt this new policy ….
QUOTE: a violation of the truce
First, there was no truce …. It was just the Clans did not advance and the IS decided to consolidate their position and allow their front line troops time for Rest, Relaxation, Recuperation and Rearmament ……
Second …. My strategy allows the Clans to Attack, not the other way around …..
QUOTE: How much in C-bills would this whole operation cost? Manpower? Equipment? Take a few years to build up and get the better equipment out to the troops, so you don't have to send a company to deal with a single star, and hope you win.
Question at the rate the Clans are being allowed to progress how long until they take over the IS – how much will that cost?
QUOTE: And the IS would not stoop to killing children as a main target.
When and where did I suggest this?
QUOTE: By the start of the year of peace doesn’t the IS know every world the Clans have captured in the IS? Worlds yes. Where their forces are?
On world Clan Forces - Partisans and Black Box Technology – yes they do Know where they are on every world!
Only those in space are to be considered an unkown variable.
As for ComStar – would Hanse (still alive) even believe a word that came out of their mouth?
QUOTE: he IS didn't know of the clans would push forward or not
After the third wave it is pretty obvious the direction in which the Clan Invasion Force is moving.
QUOTE: 40 years into the future
Canon has them permanently kicked out of the home worlds – they have their fiefdoms and are beginning to act as petty tyrants they are!
QUOTE: Canon story did no such thing.
Repetition of the same thing and expecting a different result each time is the definition of …..? and this is what the canon story is ….
I still contend that what I am suggestion is what the strategy department would have implemented given the increased information about the enemies disposition /culture / strategies / loss depletion reports based upon attrition warfare etc – what was written within canon is a child’s story (Fantasy where you must constantly dispel belief) written in a way that has no bearing in modern tactics ….
QUOTE: Now assassination. This is not the same as headhunting.
First …. Nukes are being used by Kurita at the minimum due to Turtle Bay ….
Second …. Who said there were any rules. They are a viable military target …. Any clan personnel on any IS world should be put in a state of constant fear of an IED / sniper round.
Can you show me any war where an invading force did hot have constant attacks from the indigenous population?
Third …. Who said the IS had to fight using Clan Rules?
QUOTE: Wolcott
DCMS – Hohiro Kurita – Wiki “he battle had been a trap; instead of facing what were thought to be "green" troops, the Combine forces were actually elite Genyosha regiments. The Smoke Jaguars were defeated thanks to the defenders' battle skills as well as the terrain advantage of the planet's wooded marshes”
QUOTE: Naval Vessels
WW1 – saw the introduction of fast attack craft utilising torpedoes
In order to counter these ships the destroyer class was soon introduced.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/08/19 09:07 PM
66.74.60.165
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QUOTE: a violation of the truce
First, there was no truce
Well this shows you don't have any real concept of the game. This may explain why real logic isn't getting thru.
QUOTE: And the IS would not stoop to killing children as a main target.
When and where did I suggest this?
If he explained everything – the Sibko training program was included.
Also didn’t Wolf put all the heirs of the Great Houses through a quick representation of the Sibko program? (Victor, Sun Tzu, etc) …. Thus the sibko system must have been discussed in detail.
This sounds very much like they should hit the sikcos to prevent reinforcements.
QUOTE: he IS didn't know of the clans would push forward or not
After the third wave it is pretty obvious the direction in which the Clan Invasion Force is moving.
The year long pause. I guess mixing up when things happen is showing.
Second …. Who said there were any rules. They are a viable military target …. Any clan personnel on any IS world should be put in a state of constant fear of an IED / sniper round.
Can you show me any war where an invading force did hot have constant attacks from the indigenous population?
Third …. Who said the IS had to fight using Clan Rules?
Canon: A professional army is not set up to kill just anyone that come across their path. As shown with what happened on Turtle bay, the clans would escalate removing such issues. I can say Galtor didn't fight house Davion when they invaded. There are others as well.
Your alt: changes the game from armored combat to partisan strikes. I won't use the other word that comes to mind. Also, your changes logic of the game completely. Using nukes, assassinations and such is the same as the Jihad. And worse. You say that the houses wouldn't start using it against each other.
And your Aries conventions would ban such tactics. Or did you think the alt wouldn't have to abide by them dealing with the clans? Hell. With these tactics in use, why bother with the conventions? Killing the enemies leadership means you take first lord title, as stated in earlier posts.
WW1 – saw the introduction of fast attack craft utilising torpedoes
In order to counter these ships the destroyer class was soon introduced.
Any yet they seemed to stop, non carrier, at the battle ship. The Bismark was the largest, and the last. Why? Because larger sizes made a good target without benefitting the army that has it? Too expensive? Too difficult to get some speed out of it?
Now. As canon was so crappy, and you still kept with it, Why didn't the clan get a different storyline? Removing them is one, but you suggested they evolved that way was flawed. And yet you kept it.
Question at the rate the Clans are being allowed to progress how long until they take over the IS – how much will that cost?
Did you forget the alt had more forces that were better equipped? So how did the clans invade so deeply? Get your alt straight and stop using canon as a basis for the argument then changing to the alt for an answer.
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Requiem
08/08/19 09:54 PM
1.158.206.105
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QUOTE: a violation of the truce
A truce in most cases is a temporary arrangement between the two warring parties – when did they come together to discuss this?
The Canon story is an informal at best – the IS forces are on the defensive and when the Clans did not attack, as was expected, so all the Generals decided to dig in rather than counter attack.
But in reality?
QUOTE: This sounds very much like they should hit the sikcos to prevent reinforcements.
Reading Comprehension …. Really?
How can any IS force achieve this when all of the Sibkos are within Clan Space?
QUOTE: The IS didn't know of the clans would push forward or not.
A professional army …. Question what is a viable military target?
QUOTE: Assassination
How many assassinations of head of states have occurred through the IS history – concubine snow fire for example.
All Clan personnel upon any world are a viable military target.
Ares conventions only bans such tactics against civilians. Examples –
Article V explicitly disavowed combat in cities - unless a military target was within the city - and against civilian targets. Appendix B defined what a valid military target during warfare was. Appendices C and D defined civilians and civilian assets. Appendix E clarified the rules for surrender and treatment of surrendered forces, as well as safe passage for humanitarians, noncombatants, and civilians through hostile territory.
The only recognisable Clan Civilians are those conducting commerce in the IS.
QUOTE: Bismark
Bismark Battleship – 251m long – 36m beam
Yamato Battleship – 263m long – 38.9m beam – the “floating hotel”
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
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ghostrider
08/09/19 01:16 AM
66.74.60.165
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A truce in most cases is a temporary arrangement between the two warring parties – when did they come together to discuss this?
Tukiyadd.
And the house lords let the deal represent them as well. ALL the clans agreed to it, and the houses didn't suggest they were not going to agree to it. Simple logic.
There are more then a few historical examples of digging in, instead of attacking. Mainly, not having the forces to go on the offensive. Some were just a good defensive area that could hold off a superior foe. Part of the reason for the spartans.
The only recognisable Clan Civilians are those conducting commerce in the IS.
This requires a time frame. The Diamond Sharks were doing trades, and were military in operations, as well as the Ghost Bears having their civvies come in, yet not be part of the trading statement.
Article V explicitly disavowed combat in cities - unless a military target was within the city - and against civilian targets. Appendix B defined what a valid military target during warfare was. Appendices C and D defined civilians and civilian assets. Appendix E clarified the rules for surrender and treatment of surrendered forces, as well as safe passage for humanitarians, noncombatants, and civilians through hostile territory.
Logically, this would never come about. There will always be someone hitting civvies and suggesting a military guard was the target and they missed. It is funny as warfare is suggested, meaning someone would say this doesn't cover peacetime strikes. And it will happen. Well at least logically and in reality. Most of those may well be militia groups, but then who is supplying them?
The fantasy of the alt suggesting no one would ever violate this is complete garbage. The opposing houses would still do this, even fighting the clans. Liao especially against Davion. And civil war. Well no one said it couldn't be an internal conflict.
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