The Inherent weakness of the Clan’s sibko education eugenics system

Pages: 1
Requiem
09/27/18 08:23 AM
58.175.193.140

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
The Clan’s sibko education / eugenics system is not geared for mass graduates it is geared to only accepting a very small number from each sibko unit (if that) into their military. Thus for the clans it will take them a considerably longer time frame of anywhere between 25 to up to 40 plus years (depending upon the numbers who survive their trial of position each year) to graduate the same amount of the Inner Sphere pilots who are able to do this in approximately 5 to 10 years via an Academy Education.

With the analysis of the Clans Sibko training versus the Inner Sphere’s Academy training it is clear there is an inherent weakness in the Sibko as to the number of graduates it can graduate in comparison to that of the Inner Sphere.

In an all-out war therefore where any Clan has mass casualties their ability to recover to their previous levels is quite impossible over the short term (25 years plus).

A Clan’s ability to recover would take a generation or more if the Clan initiates a massive increase in the number of eugenics pods that produce their true-born children. That are then entered into a sibkos that must be established immediately following the military catastrophe that depleted its ranks in the first place in order to recover the lost numbers within the next 25 plus years

This inherent weakness was never really addressed by the Clans Khans due to their bidding rules to minimise the inherent damage inflicted by a war.

However, once they are within the Inner Sphere all this changes – in the event mass casualties are inflicted upon the Clans and they do not have a mass eugenics / sibko training system set up 15 to 20 years prior to their invasion within the Inner Sphere to address these losses. Questions therefore must be asked ….

Due to their aversion with freeborn where does a mass replacement of trueborn Mech-warriors, Elementals and Aerospace pilots come from?

A Depletion Readiness Report should show that the Clans ability to create new pilots are below that of the number of pilots that were lost due to combat.

That is over time the size of the Clans units would shrink due to their inability to quickly replace pilots.

In addition to this it must also be recognised that their ability to rectify this situation could / would take anywhere from 25 to 40 years to rectify due to the inherit nature of the eugenics / Sibko training process from Vat born to final trial of position.

Thus the only solution to rectify this would be to lower the standard of the trial of position or to increase the number of free-born into the Clans Military.

Therefore I would like to add another Ooops moment to the writing of the Clan Invasion.

How could the Clans replenish their lost numbers on mass when their eugenics / sibko education system is are not geared for mass graduates?

Have they agreed upon a multiple trial of position to increase the number of true-born graduates – but is this not diluting the strength of the Clans by allowing substandard warriors into their units?

So how these substandard pilots would be treated, in comparison to those who achieved their position during their first trial of position? (Not allowed to achieve a surname?)

Or would they accept more freeborn who pass their trial of position?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Requiem
09/27/18 04:37 PM
58.175.193.140

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Yes, Clans some of the Clans do accept free-born into their military, the question is how many?
The answer however is an incredibly small number – a number that would not affect the overall size of the military.

The Clans military size is dependent upon the size of their maturation chambers to produce sibkos – their training then reduces this number until only a few remain. Thus the overall size of any Clan is pretty much fixed to a pre-determined level. Any serious change to this will take an additional 20 to 25 years to have the flowthrough from birth to trial of position to have an effect upon the overall size of any Clan’s operating size. That is unless they accept more free-births into their units.

The Inner Sphere however can accept increased numbers into their academies to drastically increase the size of their military over a short 5 to 10 year program.

This difference in how individuals are selected and trained for the military will have a major effect upon the size of any future fighting force. That is the Inner Sphere can produce massive new units easily while the Clans are still ordering their scientists and technicians to make new canisters for their breeding program.

What is the average size of a eugenics / vat born program –if we assume each starts of in the hundreds and from there they are slowly whittled down to less than a handful the mathematics must be considered.

Let us hypothesize that a sibko starts will 100 children and only 3 pass their trial of position

Thus for a Trinary of (15 – 97 x 5 = 485) are transferred into other areas of life other than being a warrior.

And for an invading Clan like Jade Falcon – 972 mech-warriors; 2,235 elementals; 584 fighter pilots

(972 + 2235 + 584) x 97 = 367,727 individuals are added back into the Clan Society to create this part of their army.

And considering that very few of them make it to old age as most die in combat at a relatively young age the question must be asked as to how often does the army go through a complete change in personnel?

Let us hypothesize again and say once every ten years with only a very few making it into their thirties and beyond.

So in 30 years over one million additional true born are added to the population of each Clan - A very high artificially created growth rate for just True-born on top of that of free-born individuals each year.

So how does each Clan’s Society survive these annual mass increases in population?

Think about all the services necessary – food, shelter, employment, healthcare etc.

And what if my initial assumption was wrong and rather than an initial 100 it was 200 within the sibko with the same result at the end, then all the figures could be doubled.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
09/27/18 07:13 PM
66.74.61.223

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
The thing about large scale replacement is an issue with the clans.
Through out their history, clans that suffered horrible losses, got absorbed.
It is more then likely, they do not have any sort of planning done for this.
Their combat style avoids the excessive deaths, and with only so many blood names available, there is no real need for a massive amount of new warriors.

So with that said, the leadership of each clan would have to decide how best to get more warriors. The Reavening wars was one of them. Allowing those pilots that made it into the actually piloting of the units may well be tested again, or the bar lowered to allow those in.
This would cause a drop in skills in general in the troops, with most that don't pass the first time, being limited in just how far they can rise in the ranks, and not be allowed to add to the genetics programs.
Same for freeborns.

Now. There is one thing you do need to add into your calculations on swelling of the population due to failed warriors.
How many die in their training? Most would rather die in combat, then accept being demoted into a lower caste.
This is the same concept of becoming IS bondsmen.
Also, it was said that if you do not show potential 25 is where you start being put into crap duties and postions, with solamha being the last before caster reassignment. And this group does represent a large population of trained warriors, just not those the commanders really want in their unit.
Well until they are told they would be folded into another unit, with the other one being the commanders.
Requiem
09/27/18 08:37 PM
58.175.193.140

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Thanks for the comments – so how may do you believe will die in training, does somewhere between 25% to 50% sound reasonable as most would be weeded out earlier due to a multitude of early intellectual / physical / co-ordination tests.

Or do you believe that many will euthanize themselves rather than accept being demoted to a lower caste, thus a sibko death rate could be as high as 80-90% and this could be considered normal within the Clans eugenics program.

As for wars of reeving – as far as I am aware this did not occur during the Clan Invasion.

Also if a Clan does go down this path they may end up losing more warriors than they gain. As their opponent Clan will not give up their people without a very deadly fight.

There is also the option of a Trial of Absorption – though this was only briefly discussed with the Wolves and the Falcons.

Thus these scenarios must also be considered.

The real issue however is that the Clan’s Invasion did not consider this as an issue – as more and more warriors were being sent from the Clan Home worlds.

Though there must have been a limit to the number of available warriors either from other units within the Clan as well as those from Sibko Graduates from a Trial of Position.

And I believe this issue should have been developed within the game – for it is quite clear the Jaguars should have been very close to this point when you consider the limited amount of forces they had within the Clan Home Worlds / possible sibko graduates as replacement pilots for those units within the Inner Sphere by the time of Operation Bulldog and Serpent.

And if they were close to the line what about the other Clans within the Inner Sphere?

Both the Jade Falcons and The Wolves after their war against each other they both should have been way over the line – thus their ability to reform to a sizeable force should have been reduced considerably for a minimum of 30 years.

A question therefore needs to be asked as to why one of the Home Clans did not initiate a trial of Absorption upon either of these two badly damaged Clans – and if successful once they are merged together they could then use this as a right to claim the invasion corridor of the defeated (unsuccessful) Clan within the Inner Sphere and in their place continue the invasion.

This could therefore lead to a new Alt History where the home Clans bid to conduct trials of Absorption upon both the Falcons and the Wolves.

And what if the SLDF also initiated a Trial of Absorption at the Same Time upon one or even both of these Clans?

This could lead to a very unique Alt. History
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
09/27/18 11:16 PM
66.74.61.223

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
The death rate for the training, best guess would be 20-30 percent. For some, this is high, while others might think it low. Simple issues like their tussles could go wrong and a broken neck to knifing someone as was done in the Jade Phoenix books. Also Aidan killed a trueborn while posing as a freeborn, but they did say the true borns did kill other trainees, though most of them were freeborns.

Don't think the Reavening happened during the invasion but afterwards. Not sure of the full details, but sounded like the clans got into an argument of who was better, as those invading the IS couldn't get the job done.

Also if a Clan does go down this path they may end up losing more warriors than they gain. As their opponent Clan will not give up their people without a very deadly fight.
This is very possible. In the canon version, the Jade Falcons started doing that to gain warriors as well as show the rest, they were not hurt by the Wolf war as most thought. It was a bluff at first, but it served them well. No one wanted to try to challenge to absorb them.

I would agree there is some limit to the numbers they had in reserve, but without hard numbers, it is all guess work. I seriously doubt the front line units outnumbered the amount of blood named in each clan. Someone that isn't blood named isn't likely to be allowed to run a cluster, much less a galaxy without one.

The issue of the SLDF initiating one is difficult to figure out. Would either clans accept it? Or abide by the outcome if they lost? And what would be clamed as Isorla but the clans if they won?
Requiem
09/28/18 08:55 AM
58.175.193.140

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
It is quite conceivable that if the Inner Sphere did not jump the gun and start Operation Bulldog and Serpent when they did and left it until almost the end of the 15 years both Clans Wolf and Jade Falcon would have had to absorb each other to maintain an effective fighting force.

Otherwise their depleted numbers would have become obvious not only to the Inner Sphere but also to their fellow Clans – thus their days could have been numbered by a frontal assault by either of these two forces.

However, during a trial of position what does happen if you are able to kill off five?

I agree about the issue of if the Clans would accept becoming bondsman on the SLDF – for a crusader trueborn (not at all); a warden trueborn (unknown) and for a freeborn probably just go with the flow and accept the changing situation.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
09/28/18 11:42 AM
66.74.61.223

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
As stated when Natasha and Phelan went for their trial and even Aidan's story, says that most that even attempt to take down more then the 3 they are assigned, tend to get taken out long before they even get 2, with some of the time, not even one. Part of **** is because the warriors themselves would not allow someone to 'take' any of their targets or try to steal the kills from the other.

Mechwarrior for one, star command for two, star captain for 3, cluster commander for 4, so galaxy commander would be 5. I don't think anyone got more then 4 kills on their initial trial of position, but I don't know that for a fact.
And with this, it leads one to question the abilities of the new officers to know tactics and such. They are taught in the sibko to be independent for their trials. How much training can someone have just out of the basic training to run a unit properly?
It has nothing to do with knowing anything, but how well you fight.

The SLDF is a little different from the normal houses in the IS. I think which unit took them, may change the suicide or refusal to become one. If the Nova Cats took them, then it is more of a clan doing so, not the inferior houses. I do know of some that became one of the most hated units in the clans. They became mercs. These are hated more then successor state nations. Or so the information I have seen on the subject says.

One more thing with a bondsman. It seems like all taken, become techs until they prove themselves in combat. Yet not a single one in any stories gets trained as one until afterwards. The question here. Do you trust them to do the job right?
CrayModerator
09/28/18 04:54 PM
97.101.136.19

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Quote:
How could the Clans replenish their lost numbers on mass when their eugenics / sibko education system is are not geared for mass graduates?




A good question. The immediate answer is that the Clans invaded with, basically, 4 Clans and 4 backups out of (IIRC) 17, leaving a chunk of their military strength untapped. But they had a grand total of 110,500 warriors (per Warriors of Kerensky), including some diverted to paramilitary policing duties. Replacement rates would normally be about 5,000 a year with 20-year careers for a warriors.

One of my favorite alternate histories (my own, I'm biased) exploited that. The Inner Sphere can win even when losing at 10:1 or 20:1 rates. A war of attrition simply doesn't favor the Clans.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
ghostrider
09/29/18 01:15 AM
66.74.61.223

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Isn't the one of the strategies the IS was going to implement?
By using tanks as fodder to slow and reduce the omni's efficiencies?

I do have to ask. The 110,500. Is that all military personnel? Or say just mech warriors? Also, is that including aero pilots? I am going to have to think warships, jump ships, and dropship personnel are not included in this.
Requiem
09/29/18 09:58 PM
58.175.193.140

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
A war of attrition is not usually a war most modern generals wish to be involved in, the political backlash of so many brothers, sisters, husbands, wives, children now dead on the battlefield would produce in all probability a backlash by the people against the war with the Clans (similar to Vietnam).

Also a war of attrition will take a very long lime to grind down the enemies ability to wage war and their resolve to conduct war.

Consider the Roughneck’s films and anime when they talk about ‘the meat grinder’ when fighting the bugs – and consider the populations reaction to this.

Also have a look at many WW1 books and videos as to the hardship this will bring not only to the soldiers on both sides but also the toll this will bring to the civilian people.

I would assume the 110,500 relates to Clan Mech-warriors, Elementals and aerospace pilots only.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
09/30/18 12:21 AM
66.74.61.223

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
This isn't to far from the insurgent solution. After a few failed rebellions, those on world would not trust anyone coming in saying they would liberate the system.

And this might be a little longer then one would like, but it is far better then using WMD.

It really does seem like guerilla warfare on a larger scale.
But there is one advantage the IS has with this. The clans are not ones to really hide in cities for a fight. So taking down a city isn't something most would have to deal with, at least initially.

The biggest issue I could see is moving that many forces at once, without protection of the jumpships. The clans would soon target any jumpships, even if it is nothing more then take control of it, on up to destroying it as soon as they can. But then any counter attack on the clans was in danger. The IS should not have known they were more then likely to let them live, just under clan control.
No matter what intel the Dragoons provided. Organizations change in the 40+ years the Dragoons were in the IS.
3005 being when they got into the IS.
And this was mainly freeborn warriors in the Wolves. So this is some indication of how many freeborns they had. It was not all of them either.
So this may change the idea of reinforcements or reserves the clans can or do have.


Edited by ghostrider (09/30/18 12:24 AM)
Requiem
09/30/18 04:04 PM
58.175.193.140

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
From the point of view of the Great Houses Commandoes are training these individuals and may be providing them with home guard ranks, they are no longer acting as an insurgency action. They have become either belligerents - where civilian people are actively engaged in hostile and aggressive conflict (war) and are recognised by international law, or they are part of the home guard and are actively perusing an active campaign against invaders (and must utilize the rules of warfare).

They will be utilising a guerrilla warfare approach - hit and run / assassination / taking of prisoners / bombing of legitimate military targets as their primary strategy.

From the Clans point of view these people are terrorists are those who are using unlawful (violent) means to achieve a political outcome. They have been conquered and are now part of the Clans property as a member within one of their Castes – they have no right to act as warriors – and as such each Clan has the lawful right to enact their laws upon these individuals despite the point they were citizens of the Inner Sphere up until their world was conquered. Thus Clan Warriors have the legal right to do with them as they please.

Whereas a war of attrition is an overall strategy whereby a prolonged period of conflict is occurring, during which each side seeks to gradually wear down the other by a series of actions to a point of collapse. This is achieved through a continual loss of personnel and material and is won by the side that has the greater resources and the willingness to sustain these losses (that could be in very large numbers) to achieve victory.

As I stated previously all sides have a limited number of Jumpships – this would be the primary attack target as the Clans will not recognise them as inviolate the way the forces of the Inner Sphere do. With the purposeful targeting and destruction of a Inner Sphere Jumpship by Clan Forces would mean that the gloves are off – Regimental Inner Sphere sized Aerospace attack groups would then engage Clan Jumpships as their primary target.

The Clans do not have the ability to survive a prolonged attack, even with warships, for once they loose the majority of the Jumpships their ability to move / receive reinforcements / receive supplies is servery compromised to the point they are no longer an effective fighting force. They have the Mechs, Elementals, fighters – but if they cannot move as an effective fighting force to the next targeted world their threat level is reduced considerably.

The House Lords would then have a follow up campaign utilizing Alamo missiles against the Clan warships – once stranded within the Inner Sphere the Clans would have little option but to either surrender or die as each house could then use war of attrition tactics to finally bring the Clans to heel one world at a time.

Sorry but I disagree as to the organisations change in forty years. This is the Clans and they are all very hide bound to their traditions and their way of life.
The only way this is going to change is when all the Clans militaries are destroyed upon the field of battle.

As for the number of freeborns the wolves had – I believe this was a one off, the Dragoons were established for a one off mission only as this action was completely below the dignity of a trueborn warrior– They are the Dirty Dozen of the Clan’s - Also there are no further books that support freeborn warriors in these numbers within the military in the future.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
CrayModerator
09/30/18 05:47 PM
97.101.136.19

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Quote:
I do have to ask. The 110,500. Is that all military personnel? Or say just mech warriors? Also, is that including aero pilots? I am going to have to think warships, jump ships, and dropship personnel are not included in this.



It was the entire warrior caste, and is part of a table listing the Clan population breakdown by caste.

WarShips and other large spacecraft will have techs filling out part of the crew in non-combat positions. Otherwise, the warrior caste is just that: everyone who fights. Infantry, elementals, tanks, fighters, Mechs, etc.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer

Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
ghostrider
10/01/18 12:12 AM
66.74.61.223

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
The Dragoons were drawn form the freeborn warriors. This indicates there are more of them in at least the Wolf clan. Not all went. The only oddity of this was a freeborn was in charge of the whole thing. Only blood named is Natasha Kerensky. And according to lore, fell in love with a freeborn. So figure why the clan leadership approved of getting her out of their hair.
So this has to ask, just how many freeborns do serve in the clan warrior caste?
Each clan would have different levels, but in general, they do use them. Even the Falcons trained them, as per Jade Phoenix series. Aidan trains with Horse.

Now as for the length of time the clans take to change tactics. It isn't 40 years that it took the Falcons to start spying on others, instead of just an outright attack. To my knowledge, all invading clans adopted the Watch.
They may not have been anywhere close to some in the IS, but they were developing them.

If 110,500 is max, then I think there is something wrong with the count. At 10,000 per clan, that would only cover 11 clans. Not the 17 during the invasion. I know they are not evenly divided, but for a quick figure, 6,500 per each of the 17 clans even. This is odd on the even number, but I don't think 6,500 covers all the warriors in positions among the armed forces in the clans. Ship gunners, solamha, PGC's and such seems like the number is way too low. Each invading clan had close to 1,000 mech warriors along, and that doesn't include the elementals and such.
And with this, I can see why they shun vehicles. Too many needed for one tank, verse the one for mechs, or an elemental.
Requiem
10/01/18 03:14 AM
58.175.193.140

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
The unit comprised personnel recruited from freeborn volunteers, mostly from Clan Wolf but not all. Other volunteers came from all the remaining Clans with even a couple of true born as well.

They were a one of a kind unit who were specifically established by all the Clans to conduct a long-term reconnaissance mission.

They are in no way indicative of what each clan has within their military.

Freeborn are usually assigned to second-line garrison formations and are very rarely allowed to serve in a front-line unit. This information should therefore be used on a Clan by Clan basis as to the number each may have – though ageing trueborn will also be assigned to these units as well. In addition warden and crusader clans also have different ideas regarding the use of trueborn within the military.

As for the Watch – this was established prior to the destruction of the Wolverines as per the book Betrayal of Ideals – when Nicholas needed to spy upon them.

No, the count is accurate for the total number of warriors.

So with a n all- out assault the Inner Sphere should be able to deplete Clan numbers at a rate faster then they are able to replenish them – thus they will slowly shrink to a point that they can no longer function effectively.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
10/01/18 12:33 PM
66.74.61.223

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Each clan has always viewed freeborns differently. Even those in the clans have differing views on them. Some commanders absolutely refuse to have them in their units, while others were not so strict.
But the point being made, is that they were not ALL of the freeborn warriors in Clan Wolf. Over 5 regiments of them. And that is not including all the suppport personnel like ship gunners and such.
What does bother me some, is the fact they have commandos in there. Given the stand up nature of the clans, someone sneaking around sabotaging things is counter to that. And they were elite. That also includes Wolfnet intel.

The count for the warriors doesn't seem right. It seems low. Given it covers all warriors in the clans, it just sounds low.
10/15 mech warriors in a binary/trinary, but elementals are 50/75 for each. That is for the equivalent of a company. Three to five per cluster, so up to 45 mech pilots in a cluster, with up to 375 elementals per cluster. This is 5 trinaries here.
So each invading clan had around 2000 warriors with them, not really including the ship personnel. Using the 6500 per clan, that is almost 1/3rd of their available forces.
Yes, they are more likely to have more forces then other clans, so this does change the numbers, maybe by a lot.
1125 for a galaxy of elementals and 135 mech warriors in a maxed out galaxy. I know most are not even close to being maxed out, but 5 galaxies at this size is 6300 warriors for just the two categories. This does not include vehicle, fighter pilots and such.
But then, they really didn't need that many, as their worlds are 'safe'.
Again. It just sounds too low.
Requiem
10/01/18 08:20 PM
58.175.193.140

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Have a read of Wolfs Dragoons Wiki.

As for their Commandoes and intelligence unit – were they both elite at 3005 compared to 3050? Or was this a progression over time?

As for the watch in 3050 their ability to act covertly and gather information was “not that great” as compared to the Great House’s. Perhaps there may have been a discrepancy between the two – maybe the writers did not go back to the original Wolfs Dragoons books when they brought in the Clans and this could explain the difference in the two intelligence organisations.

Also as for the total number of Clan Warriors – this also could be a mathematical error on the part of the fact checkers.

However, this does prove the point as to the Clans inability to mass produce warriors.

Their whole system is designed for quality over quantity.

Whereas the Inner Sphere can mass produces a standardised warrior – and together with added “top gun” education they can produce a limited number of quality warriors.

When you then add in the Inner Spheres ability to mass produce armaments – the Inner Spheres numbers should have been twice to three times that of the Clans as the end of the 15 year truce was approaching.

Thus with an improved situation in numbers the Inner Sphere would attack first.

• Mass Commando bombings and assassinations;
• Follow up mass military strikes;
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
10/02/18 04:23 AM
66.74.61.223

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
The Dragoons intel and commandos were elite when they got into the IS. They were used against Liao almost immediately. Information even IS agencies had a hard time getting, they seem to have. And the 7th Kommandos did things that were beyond some of the IS agencies.
The Kommados dropped in skills after they hit the comstar facility during their time just before fleeing the combine.

And one more point that should be considered with the Dragoons. They were given several warships to use as well, which never went back to the clans. So if that isn't a huge contradiction to the hatred of freeborns, I don't know what is.

As stated before. The clans never really needed huge numbers of replacement warriors before the Invasion. Their trials prevented that.

It would be interesting to see the numbers for the production of what in which state. As stated before, the vengeance would have to be built in the FS/FC for them to use hordes of them in their war against the clans.
But the issue with doing this, means they would have changed the outcome of battles before the clans showed up. Same with the jumpship issue.
Requiem
10/02/18 05:19 AM
58.175.193.140

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
This again shows how the writers / fact checkers did not produce a continuous story line.

We have Wolfs Dragoons – and their exceptional abilities; access to advanced equipment etc.

Then we have the Clans – and all the baggage that comes along with them.

I am not surprised the two contradict each other.

All that can be said are that the two should be considered as independent entities, they in no way can be thought of as coming from the same thought process.

The idea of where the Wolfs Dragoons came from and what their society represented changed over time from FASA to Wiz Kids etc.

It has become like comparing apples and oranges due to the change in time and ownership!

If we use the knowledge of the Clans currently the Wolfs Dragoons of the past would be a completely different entity.

Instead of 5 regiments coming mostly from the Wolfs it would be from all the Clans – It would be freeborn only, no trueborn whatsoever.
Their commandoes would be on par with that of the Inner Spheres Special forces. (They just have more advanced technology and unknown tactics).
The Watch would not only contain a spy element it would also contain a commissariat element to watch the Dragoons and ensure their political indoctrination is not wavering (that is they are doing the job they were sent to do – and any that may appear to wavering will thus just one day disappear)
There is no way they would be given even a single warship or the ship that can make Archer 'Mechs.

Clan trials do not stop the losses incurred when the Inner Sphere changes tactics and decided to go all out – plus when Commandoes start assassination strikes with high powered rifles at a distance of 750 meters up – their losses will also escalate out of control.

This is again where the writers do not do their due diligence as to an accurate loss report – If this was written with a little more credibility most of the Inner Sphere Clans would have been discussing strategies to increase the number of warriors coming from Clan Space as replacement personnel or other strategies to increase their numbers somewhere during the 15 year truce or they will begin to shrink in unit size.

As for the Vengeance Carrier – have a read of my Capellan's Fall War post - last page - this is being produced on three naval yards within the FC by the time of 3050.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.


Edited by Requiem (10/02/18 07:38 PM)
ghostrider
10/03/18 01:45 AM
66.74.61.223

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Commandoes start assassination strikes with high powered rifles at a distance of 750 meters up
There is a problem with the game on this.
Ranges don't match what they should be. Sniper rifles can very well take down targets at over 1 klick easily, as they can take down targets at over a mile. This is further then a klick.

And the missile systems used in the game seem great for general short ranged combat, but they don't really go into the single shot larger missiles, like todays aamram. Even the sidewinder has a 2 mile range.
And they suggest there are some still in the IS, as it was used to shoot down Tancradi's plane with just a radar lock. No LOS. So another rule loop hole that needs to be addressed and fixed.
Granted, it makes it difficult to attack things, but I know I would have several SAM sites that could take out fighters a few miles out. Even take out dropships. If I only have 20 shots in 200 tons, that isn't an issue. This concept is a ground based missile battery. I am sure you could have some space based ones.
And I would think the capital missiles are equal to an icbm.
Requiem
10/03/18 07:27 PM
58.175.193.140

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Yes there is a problem with the game when it comes to sniper rifles and their application.

However, this does not distract from the point that Clan Garrisons are ill equipped when it comes to security procedures, and their required personnel.

The only forces they have that are remotely capable are their elementals, and as previously shown they do not have the numbers and training to adequately garrison every world with a sizeable force to defend against commando insurgent activities.

They lack the training as security personnel to guard against insurgent activity stems from the point they are not required upon the Clan Home-worlds.

Whereas building an effective armour piercing rifle that is capable of penetrating an elemental’s armour to inflict critical damage should not take more than 12-18 months (at a maximum).

However what we got was writer’s / game developer’s fiat once more that such a weapon was not even contemplated or was unable to be manufactured.

Dispend belief once-more!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
10/03/18 08:35 PM
66.74.61.223

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Actually, there should be arms that could penetrate the elemental's armor. The League had power armor before it fell, as there are sneak suits and such with armor plating and such. I want to say the infantry pulse laser, think the Mauser is the name, should be able to do such a thing. Otherwise, I really don't see the reason for the League to use such a heavy, bulky rifle.
I would also think the Mauser was made to penetrate mech armor, as that would be the most armored thing they would face.

There are a few others that should modified to do it as well.
The wiki mentions one that burns thru armor, then hits the target with a dose of isotopes. It was made by the TC during the periphery war. It did say it didn't normally kill the target at the time, but I don't see why they couldn't have upgraded it.


Edited by ghostrider (10/03/18 08:43 PM)
Requiem
10/04/18 01:19 AM
58.175.193.140

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
And yet when you view the table of Infantry weapons not a single sniper’s rifle in sight.

Another fiat upon long range infantry rifles / support rifles that can take out an individual at long range – considering that all ranged weapons have been reduced to near ridiculousness ranges?

Question: What if you used an AC 2 hooked up to an advanced sighting unit – even though the damage is 2 – what about the Kinetic energy transferred through the suit – Shouldn’t it be like the Jousters of old or like being hit with a bus going at full speed – i.e. road kill.

Is there a rule for the transference of kinetic energy weapons upon elementals – and if not should there be?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
10/04/18 04:30 PM
66.74.61.223

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
The only thing I have seen on Kinetic energy is mechs shaking off swarms and elemental boarding attacks. Ie fall to the ground, use jump jets, even scrap them off with arms.

I don't think they do the consciousness rolls like mech warriors do when damage. Head shots for the mechs. Thinking even normal mgs would shake up the elemental. Mechs and even light vehicles may be large enough where the mg doesn't do so.
I know they left things out to avoid bogging down the game, but how far do they get moved one hit by, well, anything? Missiles come to mind, as energy weapons don't really push much.
Maybe a piloting roll every time they get hit by a non energy weapon with more penalties the larger the damage curve. But then they are normally in a point, so hard to determine things when grouped.
ghostrider
10/04/18 04:57 PM
66.74.61.223

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Of all the books I have in the room with me, only mechwarrior 2 has anything dealing with sniper rifles. Page 96 under rifles says the Zeus Heavy Rifle resembles the .50 caliber sniper rifle of the late 20th century.

Though they all seem to have a listing for the scopes. Figure that one.

But this is getting way off the topic.

The iron womb method is slow. They could have more warriors, if they lower the requirements of being one as said before. The pride of the warriors would prevent that, leading to their eventual downfall.
They probably knew this, so they came up with the blitz to earth, thinking that would give them control over the IS.
Some how, their intel missed the fact the IS has way more mechs then they do, as well as 4 times that in vehicles.
I have always wondered if Wolfnet intel was in the IS, or came from clan space.
The quality of them causes the issue here.

They should have had better intel. Even with the arrogance of the warriors, they had to know the 'barbaric' people in the IS would not accept their Star League, and rise up in mass.
The clans had surprise at first, which seem to fade kind of quickly, though it may well have been the coms blackout from Comstar that allowed that to last as long as it did.

As a side thought.
I wonder how badly it burns the warriors egos to know the civilian organization they left in charge of the coms beat them in a trial of refusal.
Requiem
10/04/18 06:32 PM
58.175.193.140

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
The intelligence the Clans gathered regarding the Inner Sphere is hampered by the fact their reconnaissance force (Wolfs Dragoons) went rogue.

Over time the quality and the amount of information returned to the Clans minimised / trivialised somewhat.

What also hampered the Clans was their interpretation of the data supplied – Cultural differences between the two can no longer be understood by the Clans – they viewed the Inner Sphere as a land of barbarians and thus dismissed all information that should have been considered important.

The same hubris occurred with regards to the Inner Sphere’s military – they dismissed its ability to cause them any severe damage – they had rose tinted blinkers on of their own making and it would take a massive loss on their part before they could even contemplate that they had made a misstate as to their view of the Inner Sphere.

What the invasion corridor and their fighting rituals indicates to the people of the Inner Sphere is that the Clans can only consider a culture or any information thereof is from their cultural point of view only.

Thus the attempt by the Clans to turn everything they capture into their culture.

Thus from the Inner Spheres point of view the Clans are the enemy of culture – that is they are the Vandals attempting to destroy Rome, the guardians of civilisation.

Thus we are back to the same viewpoint as that in WW2 – Allies Vs. Axis powers.

Thus there should have been a similar response – A total commitment by the people, the economy, the industrial complex etc. towards the elimination/ removal of the Clans from the Inner Sphere.

As for their loss to ComGuard forces – no this would not have been taken badly by the Clans as they are descended from the original SLDF it is only when a major defeat is occurred by the Clans at the hands of the barbarians they once vilified do they begin to rethink their thinking regarding the Inner Sphere – however rather than admitting their error they act violently towards each other and become isolationists.

Thus indicating the Clans incapacity towards self-reflection / examination and admitting a fault in their society.

Thus when it comes to their eugenics / sibko training programs the same blinkers would be hard for them to re-evaluate and make any appropriate changes to ensure their warrior numbers are retained at an appropriate level.

Over time as depletion rates exceed their trial of position graduates their military size should also reduce in size.

I doubt they could ever change this thought process even when the new SLDF invades their final planet of Strana Mechty – they are just too hide bound to identify errors in their society and make appropriate change for the better.

The Question thus must be asked how long will it take before all the non-warrior castes decide to rebel? The rebellion of the Scientist cast proves one thing – no one non-warrior caste can rebel on its own, a conclusion must be reached that all of them must unite to throw off the choke the warriors have placed upon them – how long will this apathy to freedom take?

The war of reeving and the influx of Inner Sphere goods have provided these non-warriors with a new view as to what society could be and to the level of violence their overlords will go to achieve their political ends – even to the point of treating their non-warriors as irrelevant.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
csadn
10/04/18 11:26 PM
50.53.22.4

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Yet another in a *LONG* series of reasons why "the Clan Invasion did not happen as presented".

Let's not kid ourselves: The Clans exist solely because otherwise the Inner Sphere Reunifies Under Steiner-Davion Ownership, which is fine if one is a Steiner or Davion aficionado, but sucks spectacular levels of a** if one isn't.
CF

Oregon: The "Outworlds Alliance" of the United States of America
ghostrider
10/05/18 01:28 AM
66.74.61.223

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
As stated before in other threads. The combining of the FS and LC was a major screw up for the life of the game. It changed the entire balance of it, and caused what appears to be throwing crude against the wall hoping something sticks.

I understand the way the game was going seemed to be futility for the end result of getting a victor in it. But for a war game, you can not do so.
The fact Liao was being squeezed and losing was an issue before the FC came about. It was only a matter of time before they fell, without outside help. But had they kept the FC from forming, it would have put more pressure on Davion, as the FWL would be their new neighbors. Which should have countered davions manipulating the regions to go against the Captain General. If they were not doing so, I think they could have been contenders.
I wasn't fond of the CC but do understand some loved it. I liked the FS, and had some like of the LC, but the union doomed the game.
I will say, I think the only way to really get the game back on track is to break up the major powers. But that has alot of issues that are hard to get around. And it probably isn't the best thing to do.
Other then aliens showing up, which is beyond stupid, there isn't much to keep the IS in any real sort of wars, that won't further decay the amount of combatants. Besides civil wars. Which I hate.
Pages: 1
Extra information
1 registered and 89 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  Nic Jansma, Cray, Frabby, BobTheZombie 

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is enabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Topic views: 6616


Contact Admins Sarna.net