Requiem
10/23/18 02:43 AM
58.175.193.140
|
Date 19 June 3144,
The Operation was originally planned by the Federated Suns against the Draconis Combine.
However when a Combine taskforce ambushed the Federated Suns forces at their staging grounds on the world of Palmyra.
The Battle resulted in the loss of over twenty percent of the total armed forces of the AFFS.
Questions
1. This battle discussed in more detail in Field Manual: 3145, pp. 70-71 Debacle at Palymra (sorry but I do not have this book)
2. Why would anyone place twenty precent of their total armed forces on one planet as a staging ground, would it not be more efficient to keep them in space aboard their dropships / jumpships for invasion?
3. If twenty percent of the AFFS was on one planet what was the DCMS Taskforce consisted of –Warships only – using orbital bombardment? Otherwise are we saying that over twenty percent of the overall DCMS military attacked – thus how high was their casualties?
Sorry, but this just does not make any sense whatsoever ….can the abridged notes please be supplied.
Thanks.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
Requiem
10/25/18 05:25 AM
58.175.193.140
|
So, if what I have gleamed is accurate multiple orbital bombardments were utilised.
If so can I hereby provide ……
***** The obituary for the Battlemech Unit *****
It is clear that all states will hereby transfer the majority of budgets from new and existing Battlemech Units to that of their Naval assets.
As the number of naval assets increases we can conclude the importance of any ground force will decrease to the point where only amour and infantry will survive an orbital bombardment due to being unable to be detected by the ships sensory equipment.
As the sensory equipment of the Navy increases once any forces have been detected they will decide to sterilize the area (even if they are within reinforced bunkers), destroying all enemy units and cowering the indigenous population of the world at the same time!
Can we thus say the writers and the game developers have made the ultimate gaff in promoting orbital bombardments over that of the common Battlemech Unit?
Or will there be a new weapon introduced for the super heavy Battlemech – the Anti-Ship ground lasers utilised by the Word of Blake upon Terra or will they finally allow the introduction of shields (developed from Steiner’s Stadium upon the Solaris game world)
Thus with the introduction of these weapons the common Battlemech unit may survive an orbital-bombardment.
Or can we assume that only naval assets and their aerospace fighters (armed with laser guided nuclear bombs) will now become the ultimate fighters of the Battle Tech universe?
So for my new lance I choose the following ...
1. Destroyer Class Warship + Vengeance Class Dropship(s) + Max. aerospace fighters
2. Battleship Class Warship + Overlord Class Dropship(s) + Nuclear weapons (Cobalt tipped)
3. Battleship Class Warship + Overlord Class Dropship(s) + Nuclear weapons (Cobalt tipped)
4. The Largest Jumpship available + Vengeance Class Dropship(s) + Max. aerospace fighters
Nt: all aerospace fighters will be equipped with Alamo missiles ......
Welcome to the new Battle Tech Game World ......
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (10/25/18 08:11 AM)
|
ghostrider
10/25/18 04:08 PM
66.74.61.223
|
The armor they talk about. Is that vehicles or armored infantry?
I do not see why warships would spot mechs and not vehicles.
And does that include ecm ones like the Raven?
The promotion of bombardments is more to real life then not. The use of artillery, as well as ship guns, to slam the enemy without most being in range to fight normally is how things should have progressed. But that destroys the game, as there is no real need for mechs if you just orbital bombard anything. Save money by using tanks. Normally cheaper and easier to train crews.
This promotes fighters, and space batteries, as well as warship production. It is the logical way of doing things, yet the story of the wars made sure that wasn't available during the 3000 era.
The idea of super heavy mechs using anti ship weapons, means they would be targeted first. I don't think they would survive one salvo from a real warship, while they would need more then a lance of single weapon carriers to even threaten a warship, much less take it out;
But this shows the holes in sensors for mechs. They can't find something a klick away, but can find fighters and such in orbit?
And fighters would be phased out, or limited, while bombers would become prevalent.
As a side note that was asked a while ago. The league built the Steiner stadium, wouldn't they have that tech and have utilized it for at least the repositories, if not more areas?
And there is no information on just how much it can stop, IE normal lrms, but what about Kraken missiles?
|
wolf_lord_30
10/25/18 04:45 PM
74.214.54.153
|
You can pound something into submission all day long, either from air or artillery. But until you get boots on the ground, you cannot take it over. And if all you do is orbital bombard everything, you'll destroy too much and never get any spoils of war. What's the point of winning a planet if there is nothing left of it? Orbital bombardment, with a few exceptions, is not precise and is a very messy affair. 'Mechs and even regular ground troops cannot just be replaced by air superiority. It establishes dominance, but does not provide lasting results, unless you destroy everything.
|
Requiem
10/25/18 07:45 PM
58.175.193.140
|
Any vehicle that can remain hidden to the sensors of warships can remain upon the battlefield.
As for ECMs – this will not protect the mech (or anything else) from warship detection or an orbital bombardment.
Yes orbital bombardments are more real to life – this is why any ground forces detected will be sterilized.
This is why I question the need of ‘Mechs any more when a warship can just devastate any concentration of forces.
As for mech anti- ship weapons – yes they will be targeted first – thus numbers are required to stave off an attack whist the battle for air superiority rages on – thus the need for fighters will still be required to protect the bombers and the warships – also the need for rapid first strike craft will keep them on the battlefield.
The holes in the game a vast in numbers – just add ‘Mech sensors to the list and keep going.
The Steiner stadium is another technological black hole of the game that refuses to incorporated into the game as a weapon system – it is to remain on Solaris for the game world only – all I can suggest is it is a whim of the game developers.
QUOTE: You can pound something into submission all day long, either from air or artillery. But until you get boots on the ground, you cannot take it over.
Correct, this is why infantry will remain, but anything considered too technologically advanced will be pounded from space until nothing remains.
So unless you have a massive anti-warship satellites, nuclear mine field, or vast aerospace fighters to bring down the warship you are fragged. The warship can just rain fire down with impunity and there is not a dam thing a ‘Mech unit could do to stop it.
With the DC destroying the FS from now on all units with access to navy vessels will start the invasion with a massive orbital bombardment then followed up with mass aerospace fighter waves then and only then will the ground forces be sent in to mop up anything that was missed. Although if a concentrated enemy strong hold is found rather than attacking directly an orbital bombardment will be called in first prior to any forces going in.
Thus the glory days of the ‘Mech-warrior are over and the day of the warship fleet has begun.
So sorry to burst your bubble but “mech and ground troops have been replaced by air superiority – remember the Iraqi War and how air superiority destroyed the might of the Iraqi armour this is how it will be from now on. High explosive aerospace fighter missiles and orbital bombardment will rule the battlefield as mech-warriors will be utilised to clean up the mess afterwards (glorified infantry only!)
So after a period of time, after word gets out that you are willing to destroy everything to win, all you need to do is park a warship in orbit and how many civilian governments would capitulate rather than fight.
So yes you destroy a couple of planets but in the long run how many civilian governments will just give up without a fight thereafter?
The Day of the Mech-Warrior is gone!!!!!!
All House units that have access to build a vast Navy will be building these as a priority above that of the now humbled 'Mech.
The entire tone of the game has shifted from "mech to warship and aerospace fighters.
So do we congratulate the writers and the game developers for the change in the direction of the game?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
10/26/18 03:09 AM
66.74.61.223
|
Where is the information that says a warship can detect mechs on the ground and send an accurate orbital bombardment?
Where is the information saying ECM doesn't work against warships?
They used bombardments in a few novels, but they always needed a spotter.
The Turtle Bay incident was full city destruction, not just a single unit.
The very scenario portrait is the same one about someone using nukes, as suggested to be used against the clans.
Though this scenario has a few flaws in it.
The first being how many warships are there?
They can't be everywhere, and you should have yours destroying enemy resources as well.
Now if they actually did it right, shipyards is your first target when dealing with an enemy. Then repair yards for space craft. Only after those are taken out, can you ignore alot of the ground forces.
And they would still hit infantry as well.
|
Requiem
10/26/18 04:36 AM
58.175.193.140
|
Quote: Where is the information that says a warship can detect mechs on the ground and send an accurate orbital bombardment?
From what I understand have a look at Field Manual: 3145, pp. 70-71 Debacle at Palymra – I don’t have the book but from what I understand 20% of the FS military was destroyed there by multiple DC Warships.
Quote: Where is the information saying ECM doesn't work against warships?
First, all you need is high optics and a computer program to analyse these pictures to detect mechs / Dropships etc.
Second what is the distance an ECM works – and only upon other Vehicles / Mechs within close proximity - whereas a warships sensors would have to be in the hundreds of kilometres so how can a short range ECM stop a Sensor that works in the hundreds of kilometres?
Third, it didn't help the FS 'Mechs upon Palmyra so why would it work anywhere else?
And if they need a spotter why not use multiple aerospace fighters out of range of any ‘Mech weapons to direct the fire?
Though the real question is if spotters are required now how long will it take before spotters are not required due to the advanced sensors of a warship 10, 20, 50 years?
As from 3150 ‘Mechs may still have a use, but this has now become a twilight profession, as over time, as the number of warships increases, the importance of the ‘Mech decreases. So in fifty years how important / relevant will the ‘Mech be in comparison to a warship that in all probability could sterilize an area in the hundreds of kilometres?
As for ship yards no forces are allowed to attack them as the rules of war expressly forbid attacking them – or are you suggesting that all shipyards and Jump-ships are now viable targets within the Inner Sphere?
As for infantry – if you can find them then yes I wold use an orbital bombardment upon them just to make the point to any civilian government considering rebelling.
The age of the 'Mech is over welcome to the age of the Warship.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Edited by Requiem (10/26/18 04:55 AM)
|
ghostrider
10/26/18 09:11 PM
66.74.61.223
|
It seems a lack of how scanners work and are blocked is part of the issue. Just because you can scan millions of square miles, does not mean an ECM ship in that will be detected. It just doesn't find the area in the scans. I guess the tarps they used to cover things from air raids would be a good example. You just don't detect what is in that area. Everything else is seen just fine.
It sounds like the book lacked the vital part of the bombardment as it needs a spotter, unless it would just a full out, destroy thousands of acres waste of munitions. That is not saying they didn't, but for the most part the bombardment needs a spotter like artillery. Unless they changed that as well.
First, all you need is high optics and a computer program to analyse these pictures to detect mechs / Dropships etc.
If this is true, then warships should be able to hit fighters and even missiles. And no matte how fast it is, the time it takes to drop the ordinance, the units are not in the same position as when you took the optics. This is very much like ranging artillery. Guessing where the units will be when the shots hit. Even energy weapons need to be done like this, though the time frame is shorter.
Though the real question is if spotters are required now how long will it take before spotters are not required due to the advanced sensors of a warship 10, 20, 50 years?
You do understand this is the main flaw with the entire game? Shots that can't hit anything over 1 klick, even though we have things that direct fire and hit at 2 miles now. And no ICBMS and such in the futures, including nuke tipped, or terrain following to hit the area, not just a specific target.
As for ship yards no forces are allowed to attack them as the rules of war expressly forbid attacking them – or are you suggesting that all shipyards and Jump-ships are now viable targets within the Inner Sphere?
Is this question a joke?
It was stated that warships would end any chance of resistance, yet you would not target the facilities that make them? It is easier to rule when no one else has the power to reach you. You don't even need to wipe out many worlds, as no one could resist if there is no way to make warships, other then yours. Anything that comes into your system that might carry bombs and such to kill you, you damn sure better hit them before they can hit you.
|
Requiem
10/27/18 12:49 AM
58.175.193.140
|
First, we are discussing an ECM contained within either a Vehicle or a ‘Mechs on the ground that are being scanned by a warship in orbit around the planet.
So, as per Sarna. Wiki …
A Naval Comm-Scanner Suite
“The NCSS comes in Small and Large sizes, weighing 100 and 500 tons respectively. The Small NCSS doubles a unit's maximum detection range, while the Large triples it, and both provide modifiers to detecting a target and initiative. NCSS systems may also mimic the functions of a High-Resolution Imager, with a maximum range of 500km for a Small NCSS and 2000km for a Large NCSs”.
In addition there are also Remote Sensor Monitor Tables as well as other sensor arrays.
As for the rules of warships – orbital bombardments – missiles etc – flaw of the game - just add this to growing list of rules that are required to explain events such as the Battle of Palmyra.
Or was it writer’s prerogative as it was only the FS who took the hit? …..
As for Naval Ship yards – what else are made within the same shipyards?
Answer Jumpships ….. and are you allowed to target Jumpship shipyards?
So your actions are limited to …
1. send in a tug to cut the supports away from the warship – then drag it out of the shipyard to deep space then destroy it with multiple salvos; or
2. send in a special operations team to steel it.
As for the security of warships, can we go back to the argument of Regimental Aerospace Corps – Multiple Vengeance Class Dropships with 40 aerospace fighters each – and each fighter has been outfitted with Alamo Missiles.
Thus the need for security fighter screens for your warship(s) within near orbit of the planet – conducting an orbital bombardment – thus the need for battles to determine air superiority.
Plus how many states would have hidden their warship production ship yards at an undisclosed jump point? My bet is a majority of them have been secretly building hidden production facilities post Jihad – the WOB have taught the IS a valuable lesson regarding hidden production facilities and the IS successor states have learnt this lesson and acted upon it.
Also in addition to this you do realize that from 3150 onwards all planetary invasions that utilize naval assets their command and control elements will be situated within the Naval Vessel itself.
No longer will the commanding General be within the cockpit of a ‘Mech they will commanding from a Remote Sensor Monitoring Table which will project a 3D image as well as the location of all friendly and opposition forces deep within the bowels of the warship and all instructions will be communicated from the ship to the ground forces.
Thus further strengthening my proposition that the importance of the ‘Mech Warrior is decreasing.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
10/27/18 02:37 AM
66.74.61.223
|
The alamo missile argument came up when it was the 'only' defense the IS had against the clan warships, and that any method to stop them should be used.
Now this is talking about the DC using warships to bombard worlds. Granted, this is the one staging world the FS was using to invade the DC, so it may have been only a one time shot. But given the past, it is a good bet they would not stop.
Now destroying anything that can make a warship is banned?
This would be considered life and death for others. Not just being conquered but killed without any reason, other then the enemy wants your world and you have defense forces on it.
And this is not cause for any means necessary to survive?
And do you care if the enemy doesn't have jumpships, as long as you do? Yes. As they will use them to attack you. Remove them, and remove the threat of them invading. At this point, the 'laws' of combat disappear.
It all comes down to who can make these, and who is enslaved or dead.
And the irony of needing nukes to stop an enemy, then complain they nuked worlds, now saying you can't do what is necessary to survived is amazing.
Hiding warship production isn't as easy as you make it sound. WOB had done it, because Comstar did it. And they controlled the HPG network to do so. It isn't as simple as jumping into a system and start building it. The resources need to be there. Possible local sources can be done, but the materials used for the jump cores is supposed to be limited.
I do agree that if they keep warships and start bombardments of everything they can, the game is over. Mech combat will disappear, and this would become a space naval game. But even then, it would not work right.
I do think they did this to wipe out alot of the FS forces, so they could counter their previous mistake of the FC, which was a mistake in the first place. The Jihad was another band aid that didn't work to fix that mistake.
|
Requiem
10/27/18 06:40 AM
58.175.193.140
|
Therefore with the close of the Battle of Palmyra the entire Inner Sphere will return to Jihad / First Succession War Tactics.?
Filed commanders will be given approval to use tactical and strategic nuclear ordinance when and wherever they deem it is necessary. All strategic shipyards remaining within the Inner Sphere are to be obliterated in a nuclear inferno within a very short period of time. Thus not only warships but jumpship production will become unattainable for the foreseeable future.
Isn’t this a bit of an over-reaction?
Would it not be more realistic to say whilst all sides attempt to make their ship yards an impenetrable fortress more naval battles are becoming common and the outcome of their battle will determine the fate of the system that is being fought over?
Thus more pirate points are being utilized to evacuate military forces in the event their warship has been neutralized.
As for building hidden shipyards – yes it isn’t easy, however how long has it been from the end of the Jihad to 3150 (or thereabout) – surely within this time frame given the resources a successor state has access to they do have the capability of establishing one or two secret shipyards together with the production of a few warships / pocket warships and maybe even an aerospace fighter carrier.
As for the materials use for the jump core – if a program to establish a hidden shipyard did commence by a successor state that state would ensure that the entire production of the ship could be manufactured in house otherwise there would be no point to manufacturing a hidden shipyard.
So why destroy twenty percent of the AFFS – this is no mistake – have they finally reversed their opinion upon a destroying a house – when they had no follow through in 3039 when the FS should have invaded the CC – thus the FS will become part of the DC as no one could say they are being racist if they do it this way, can they?
Though if they did destroy the FS I think I will either give up the game in protest or restrict my gaming to pre clan invasion only whilst praying for someone to purchase the company and re-write the entire game from the start.
So hopefully a re-start from the beginning with new range rules to start would be a good first step in fixing the mess made if they decide to destroy the FS sometime post 3150.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
10/27/18 12:13 PM
66.74.61.223
|
Isn’t this a bit of an over-reaction?
I thought this with using the nukes against the clans.
And nukes were used in the Amaris war as well. So there is no specific things like only the house lords use them.
The materials used in the core are from instate sources. The issues is it is an easier thing to track, as it has a specific use. The whole Federated-Boeing around Galax being the prime example of that. And that isn't including the lithium for jump batteries. That large of an amount can not be going to a local manufacturer for local use.
20% of the AFFS was probably done to create the air of concern and such. I do think it's bs, but I can see it as a way to make the fight a little closer together. I would expect to see the LA/LC as well as the FWL suffer some losses as well. Put the forces on a semi equal terms again.
Now there is a few points I think that are missing.
One. Why not design a warship carrier? Have the fighters are an intracle part of the warship program. Then the need for dropships either drops or you increase the amount of fighters you have at any one time.
Second. The amount the FS lost is horrible, but not the end of the world for them. They lost as much in the first war, when Kurita did the same thing, only they did it in the entire border, not just one world. They fought back and finally pushed them back.
And as much as I hate the way they did alot of the items in the game, most of the SL/Clan items were probably not even thought of when the game first came out. I believe they were surprised when it took off, and scrambled to get things done.
A simple thing the the ac 5 being just an autocannon. Don't think they were going to make the others in the series, until citytech. If they had, this would have been a much smoother transition.
Had to make sure of the name. The Thera warship from the FWL is a prime example of how to make a warship that doesn't need the figther dropships.
Edited by ghostrider (10/27/18 12:17 PM)
|
Requiem
10/27/18 03:58 PM
58.175.193.140
|
QUOTE: Isn’t this a bit of an over-reaction? ….. there is no specific things like only the house lords use them.
During the war with the Clans, this is utilizing strategic atomics against designated military targets upon the battlefield.
Using them against the remaining few Naval yards is another issue completely – due to their limited number it was decided by all to make these facilities off limits.
To make them a target now will mean the Inner Sphere is returning to the pre-industrial age once more where the Inner Sphere found itself in the year 3000 – an inability to travel the stars as their ships numbers are dwindling due to an inability to manufacture / repair their Jumpships.
To make them a target once more is a very provocative move.
As for mineral deposits – large corporations would contain a small fleet of Jumpships and geologists to search for new sources as what is the mineral life expectancy of Galax? What happens when the mine peters out? New sources of minerals must be constantly sought after and new mines established to ensure the continual survival of the corporations such as Federated-Boeing.
Warship carriers have been designed –both the FWL and the DC have them, for example the DCMS’ Mount Niitaka a Kaga Class Warship before it became the Ryu.
However it may also be down to cost – as it is much easier and cheaper to produce Vengeance Class Dropships – plus their number allows for a greater flexibility when assigning them to units or combining them into one Regimental Unit as a specific strike group rather than just having one large carrier class warship.
Yes, during the First War they did push back – but this was also do to the Kentares Massacre to boost their own morale whist the DCMS was flagging due to the unspeakable crimes they were requested to commit by the Emperor. This time round they do not have this.
This time around I would not put it past the writers to kill off the FS.
So we will find ourselves back to the same old problem – FS + LC = FC but now FS + DC = DC
The entire games’ cannon history has gone off the rails as far as I can see. So it is no wonder I have made my own Alt History.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
10/27/18 06:42 PM
66.74.61.223
|
There will always be someone building jumpships. Now weither everyone can get them or not is another story. Until WOB pulled their crap, Comstars facilities would remain untouched as they were not 'hostile' to the houses. Even then, the periphery would retain theirs until they become noticed again.
During the war with the Clans, this is utilizing strategic atomics against designated military targets upon the battlefield
This statement is a cop out. BS completely. Designated military targets? Like the generals living in the middle of the capital city on a world? So take him out, as well as the rest running the planet and it will surrender.
Pulling for the FS has your view warped on things. It is ok for the FS to use nukes against others, and not have it used against them? The destruction of 20 percent of their forces is unacceptable? Yet taking out the entire clan military was fine?
I don't know the totals of units in this time frame, but 20 percent may well be the entire invasion force used, as the fourth war style attacks or 3039. It is bs that they would stage off one world, and that is the big loop hole. Not the fact the force got caught and destroyed.
The entire games’ cannon history has gone off the rails as far as I can see. So it is no wonder I have made my own Alt History.
You made the alt because the FS wasn't going to be the last one standing quickly, if ever. Which is fine. But screaming the canon doesn't fit that point of view is where this whole thing becomes obsolete.
And the massacre was only the largest done, not the only one. Both sides participated in things like this. Well actually, ALL sides of the succession wars did.
A side note. Did the canon kill off the CC? No. Will it kill off the FS? Doubtful. There will always be something to allow them to stay in the game. As said before the wanting the CC gone. It would destroy the game balance entirely. Now the FS seems to be headed that way and it's blasphemy?
|
Requiem
10/27/18 09:55 PM
58.175.193.140
|
If there are no yards how can you produce a jumpship?
And How can the Inner Sphere be the Inner Sphere when there is only a small number of Jumpships?
And how can the Inner Sphere repel a second Clan invasion when their technology has been reduced to a pre-3025 Jump-ship standing?
It would be the end of the game as we know it.
Where did I say it is OK for the FS to use nukes and not have them used against them?
What I am saying is taking out 20% of the FS forces via warships orbital bombardment has relegated the ‘Mech to a second class status upon the battlefield (ie. they are no longer the kings of the Battlefield …. Jack maybe?)
Yes I agree is does sound like ‘BS’ that 20% of the AFFS would stage off one world and yet the writers’ cannon history has established this narrative as factual. So for those who wage war in the cannon universe this is what happened!
So go and have a read of the units destroyed within the Sarna wiki.
QUOTE: …. But screaming the canon doesn't fit that point of view is where this whole thing becomes obsolete.
No, what is obsolete is the numerous plot holes that make the story ridiculous in the first place – the writers / game developers have designed a story where at many points you must suspend your belief in reality because they want it to go in a direction that in all reality would not go that way – they do not understand law, politics, cultural norms as it related to military history, when it is necessary to communicate a point to the enemy, utilising technology to overcome an enemies advantage and just plain common sense throughout the entire story board.
They just do not explain things in enough detail to make certain situations credible ……
As for game balance that is one of the major sticking points …. is there balance anywhere else, as far as I can see no there is no balance … so why suspend reality because of being threatened with being called racist, this is just pandering to the ‘PC’
So the blasphemy does not lie in the destruction of a Successor Stare – it lies in HOW the Successor Stare is destroyed.
Can anyone reasonably come up with a good reason as to why you would place 20% of your entire fighting force upon one planet for a future invasion? Where is the military doctrine in doing this ludicrous act?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
10/27/18 11:19 PM
66.74.61.223
|
The use of alamo missiles against the clans is where the concept of using nukes comes into effect, but when suggested the CC use them against the FS during the removal war, or that anyone else does is where.
I said hit the ship yards. That does not mean all of them will be destroyed, especially if say comstar is building them around terra. I don't know if the Titan yards were destroyed or not. As Comstar would probably be neutral in this, they would be left out of the wars. But this is only assuming those yards are still in service.
Also, this would depend on how many of the states get involved. Just the FS/DC? Then the FWL, LA, and for canon, CC could still be active. As the DC is hostile to the LA, I would suspect the LA would do their own strikes against the DC.
Sooner or later, the warships will stop working as their would be no dry docks to do some of the work that would be needed. And as you said. The clans have their own manufacturers. Diamond Sharks would be willing to sell to any that could afford them. So it would not stop jumpships from surviving. Just probably not built by the state houses.
Can anyone reasonably come up with a good reason as to why you would place 20% of your entire fighting force upon one planet for a future invasion? Where is the military doctrine in doing this ludicrous act?
Use your own WWII data for this. Where were a large chunk of the D-day forces at? Around England? On ships heading towards France?
The question that should be asked is where were the defending units? The aerofighters that should have been on guard duty, as I seriously doubt the DC had everything they could muster there.
I do think they did not include militias and such in that information, so it may be 20% of the mobile forces.
|
ghostrider
10/27/18 11:29 PM
66.74.61.223
|
The carrier warships.
The Thera carries over 200 fighters. It does not need extra fuel for the dropship carriers, and could very well be deployed as a one ship planetary blockade. It is just the one that holds the most fighters. That is not saying you could not bring in vengeance carriers with it. But you start off with two regiments of fighters on just the warship. Then you have the bombardment capabilities on top of that. Granted, the FWL as like the clans before the Jihad. According to the wiki, all of their warships had HPGs. Hard to beat that when calling for reinforcements or sending intel.
The warship is more likely to survive an encounter with another warship then a jumpship with dropships. So being economical would not be the issue. Expensive as hell? Yes. But again. A lack of needing more fuel for dropships to carry the fighters is a good thing here. Same with needing repair parts for those dropships.
Is it the best way to go? Not sure. Trying to build them would be the big issue. Once you have a few, then protecting the yards that do so, would be that much easier, as well as hitting anyone in the general area.
Resources may well be what stops it. No fuel, no ores for making parts, no reinforcements like trained pilots and such as well.
|
Requiem
10/28/18 12:27 AM
58.175.193.140
|
Once you start attacking ship yards can you say that all sides will stop before all of them are destroyed?
In all probability all yards will be attacked upon multiple occasions until destroyed and protecting them will be no easy matter.
And I doubt Comstars neutrality will protect them this time around. As the aim is to be the last one standing who is able to manufacture warships is it not?
So we are looking at a war where everyone is against everyone.
And in such a battle there is no way to determine an outcome.
Comparing using one world as a base of operation to invade a vast border front such as that of the Draconis Combine (March) to the D-day invasion is ludicrous.
One is regarding a war on one world only (within a narrow geographical layout) the other is concerning war upon multiple worlds spread over many systems that cannot be reached by one jump alone.
To attack along a broad front requires multiple staging areas (worlds) from which to strike – consider the Fourth Succession War and Hanse Davion’s attack strategy as a blue print as well as the information gained from Operation Galahad before espousing D-day as an example.
As for their defending unit – there was one FS warship present and it was expected the Ravens were to be there as well.
So again this idea that 20% of their forces would be on one world for an invasion still does not make any sense. It is again just the writers / and developers making things up that have no real world justification.
Yes the Thera Carrier is an impressive warship, however what about opportunities forgone – what else could you have acquired with the same cost? How many Vengeance Class Dropships and how many pocket-warships / full warships could have been acquired in its stead?
Also why have a carrier fixed at one point protecting your yards – a ship like this should be used as the flag ship of an armada against your enemies ship yards.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
10/28/18 03:19 AM
66.74.61.223
|
Comparing using one world as a base of operation to invade a vast border front such as that of the Draconis Combine (March) to the D-day invasion is ludicrous.
The scale is the only real difference. Well distances anyways. I think the D-Day invasion had a larger ratio of soldiers then this invasion did. Infantry today having more in it the a mech regiment.
As for the goals of the invasion, it would make sense to have them concentrated if they were going to penetrate the border in one location, then mushroom out hitting second and deeper worlds, trying to cut off the heavily fortified front line worlds. As for drawing supplies once engaged, it would be very stupid to rely on one world.
The CC being the blueprint for a successful campaign is correct, but almost impossible to achieve. First, you need a spy relaying where your forces are to the enemy, then change them without telling that spy. Also, having a vast amount of troops beyond what that nation could possibly muster has to be there. So without the set up the writers had for the invasion, that would never have happened.
It is interesting that you think you can buy any unit you want. This is not the alt, so the FS buying Vengeances isn't likely in those large numbers. They don't make them, so that point is rather mute. They did have a couple of carrier warships, though I guess not in that area at that time. You make do with what you build.
The Thera was brought up as an example on how to side step the lack of fighter carrier dropships, though it is an FWL ship, not FS. I just knew of that one, and not the FS ones of the time. The supposition of numbers is what seems to be causing issues of not understanding some things in the game.
Asking how things can be, then saying it couldn't possibly be that way, because of numbers that are only supported in your game, and not the canon, is not a basis for a legal argument.
I can say my game has advanced ppcs to pbc. The canons from robotech, that hit at ranges over a mile, and do 5d10 +25 points of damage, so there is very little change a unit will survive a dual shot. And with multiple shots per round... well, you should get the picture here.
|
Requiem
10/28/18 05:02 AM
58.175.193.140
|
If scale is the only difference consider all the debarkation points not only for Overlord but for Neptune as well … so one world makes no sense what so ever!
Penetrating a border world with 20% of the AFFS makes no sense – a hammer to crack an egg – then mushrooming out? Remember what Galahad taught the AFFS regarding attacking multiple worlds at the same time – so the strategy of utilizing one world as a staging point for a future invasion still does not make any sense whatsoever.
The war for the CC however does prove it is achievable! However given the game developers current persona your probably right it will never happen again
Who has the numbers as to what dropships each Successor State has circa 3140 – 3150?
How many have they captured during the wars to date from other successor states?
They could still have up to 50 (which is still a small number in comparison to other Successor States), however this amount can still be considered a very dangerous force.
So, again we do not have the numbers thus both of us are guessing as to the numbers. Thus it is up to individual game masters to make a decision for their own game.
And I appreciate how you attempt to put forward ideas that I did not even put forward ….
so until I get an answer that makes a degree of rational sense as to why a situation occurred I will remain sceptical.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
10/28/18 12:02 PM
66.74.61.223
|
Thus it is up to individual game masters to make a decision for their own game.
You are missing the point here.
This is a rant against the canon writing. Not a comparison of alts. The developers have their numbers, or even make it up, it really doesn't matter. The excuse of each game master can not be applied here. Your number, my numbers, the numbers of DMV or the president of what ever. They don't matter in this case as they are not what is used for the canon writing.
Now if the writers don't use the developer numbers, then there is an issue. And we do know the writers do things that are not with the rules. But then the developers should fire them for not doing so.
Focusing the forces to one system on the border, does not mean you use all of them there. You simply use that breach as the means to put your forces deeper into enemy territory. It makes plenty of sense if you think of the broad border war in 3039. Had they punched a direct line to the LC during that war, it would not have ended as poorly as it did. Not saying it would have been a victory for them, but it would have done alot more damage, and taken alot less casualties.
Another fact that seems to be missing in the CC invasion. There were no deep reserves anywhere. The AFFS hit from their border to the FWL. And pushed away from terra. Not only where they completely outnumbered, but there was no where to even pull reserves from. And they hobbled the CC before the invasion like they did the other states during the wars. So suggesting it is possible forgets the fact that it was written that way.
The only ship that suggests the makers didn't have the majority of any ships made in the IS, was the Monolith jumpship. That stated in the fluff the DC owned the most, when it was Davion made. Now unless they came out with a newer listing of where things are made, the FS/LC/FC did not have Vengeance dropships being made in their borders.
If you want to suggest they took what they had and put them into one basket, is your choice. But that in itself would be unadvisable. The very fact the task force was destroyed would mean they would have lost them all. I have not seen the list of what was there, or what they had, so it is possible they did have their stock there, and lost.
|
Cray
10/28/18 03:34 PM
97.101.136.19
|
Quote:
Now if the writers don't use the developer numbers, then there is an issue. And we do know the writers do things that are not with the rules. But then the developers should fire them for not doing so.
The writing process usually starts with developers giving the writers an outline that's already been fact checked. Then the writers' drafts get fact checked. The writers aren't the ones setting canon.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
|
ghostrider
10/28/18 04:26 PM
66.74.61.223
|
So the exploding fusion engines is canon?
At the time, there were no rules to pull heat sinks off line manually, so Kai's blowing up the Hachetman to seal the pass from the Falcons was canon?
Cranking the torso back to give the arms more range is canon? Phelan's fight with the aerofighter while in the clans.
The whole Dragoons movable space station was canon?
The ability to do a forward flip in a mech is canon? When they are aerodynamically bricks?
The ability of a mech warrior to put on an elementals armor and use it as proficiently as someone trained in their use?
How about the mech that had both legs snapped off by clan mechs, as well as one arm, but was using the Phoenix Hawks Large laser in a 3 point stance during the fight on Luthien.
Lets not forget things like the crawling mechs, stealth skill, and the sensor baffles on buildings in the adventure packs. There is plenty more, but these come to mind right now.
I do grant they follow the story line, but get 'creative' on some of the actions that go on.
And I will grant some leeway for company changes, as not sure when certain ones were made, verses the new staff.
|
Requiem
10/28/18 11:07 PM
58.175.193.140
|
Remember when I suggested utilising Fenrir / Regimental Aerospace Units against Clan Warships? Are we not going down the same path / argument of removing 20% of the AFFS forces from their border worlds that will severely deplete the CC and DC borders? Thus with the borders weakened so how can the FS survive the inevitable invasion that is to come from the CC and the DC?
Removing 20% of your forces and placing them on one world does not make any rational sense to me?
Unfortunately no one successor state house has the numbers to form a reserve unit during a successor war – it is everything I have against everything you have scenario. Reserve units are formed during limited engagements only.
Just because they were not made within a specific successor state does not mean they did not have them. Acquisition during a war does occur – plus if special-forces noticed a lapse in their defence I would also assume they would steal them.
To me there are just too many unknowns for anyone to make an absolute ruling.
In addition to this I would like to ask this – if 20% of the AFFS was on one world would this not also mean that a very high number of aerospace fighters were also on this planet. So if they engaged the DC warship forces in space how did they fare against them?
Hundreds of fighters against how many warships?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
10/29/18 11:54 AM
66.74.61.223
|
Unfortunately no one successor state house has the numbers to form a reserve unit during a successor war – it is everything I have against everything you have scenario. Reserve units are formed during limited engagements only.
This is not true. There are always units on other worlds, especially important ones even far behind the lines. Not just militia. The history of the succession wars has had that for all before. During the desperate 1st war in the FS, they did not send everything they had to counter the DC. And no. I am not suggesting they pull units off the CC front. The Cruisis march had units that did not participate in the main push. I want to say raiding and some counters to deep pushes.
The 4th war was different, as the CC didn't have much that was outside a few jumps from the border, and even then, those below the end line were not involved with the exception of countering any raids in that area.
Putting the 20% on one world is garbage. There are a few very weak reasons I could see, and all together is still bs. One not discussed yet is being able to avoid word getting off world. That failed, or maybe it was found out elsewhere. Still not a good enough reason to do it.
One thing about the fighters. You would hope they were stationed there, and not have a very weak air cover. And in a few stories, it does suggest the fighters are not always with the RCTs.
Now the kicker. How many fighters did the DC bring with them? They did build the Vengeance carrier before the clans invaded. I haven't seen if they still do at this time period.
|
Requiem
10/29/18 05:18 PM
58.175.193.140
|
We can all agree that this story arc so far is a complete mess.
The question is though – what is going on with this plot development?
With a reduced military it is a certainty that both the DC and the CC will invade the FS.
So how far will the borders shift?
And to what end requires a minimalized FS – or is it just their turn?
There are just too many unknowns …. Twenty years ago there would have been a novel about this – now just a note in a book?
Though I hope the developers are prepared for the inevitable backlash from existing gamers is they believe the story arc lacks any credibility.
Especially when you consider how many non- computer gamers remain – each year less and less?
So how will they increase the numbers non-computer gamers over the next couple of years?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
|
ghostrider
10/30/18 12:05 AM
66.74.61.223
|
Once they figured out the game was going some where, they should have fixed the holes in the rules, then did the time line. League machines should have been found in all the caches that were still around, not the 3025 versions of them that seem to be normal. I don't think any League mech should be like the 3025 version. Not a single one. All should be advanced tech, though maybe not everything in them. And different weapons packages, as some tech had to be changed out. I could see the Wasp having a Streak 2 pack, though what if it only had the ml and electronics package. Say all recon mechs had advance probes and possible ecm. They are scout mechs after all. 3025 has them a just light mechs.
This could be said about the heavy recon mech the Phoenix Hawk.
While on the Phoenix Hawk, they never did anything with the advanced coms package command mechs were supposed to have. Come to think of it, they didn't put a range limit in normal coms. So wasted potential here.
I don't think there were many vehicles that survived the succession wars, that came from the League, like the Rhino, even with the downgrade in tech like mechs were.
So continuity isn't there.
Then fixing the holes going into the 3025 era, and that should take care of most of the rest of the holes coming up.
The issue with the FC coming together. Might have happened, but not likely. As I said before. The DC should have been their initial target, but the developers decided to hit the CC. It works, but given the alliance, removing the common enemy would have been the better choice.
Now as for the FS. I am not part of the development crew, so can only give ideas on what may happen.
The DC was having issue getting units during the 3030s and such. I don't think that got much better by 3100's. It could very well be the FS is closer to DC numbers now.
The CC could very well open up on the FS, only to be hit by what is left of the FWL. Hell, they could very well gain alot from taking CC worlds. Or they could ally with them so the FWL could hit LC worlds.
The LC might not be cozy with the FS, but if the FS falls, the LC is next for the DC. They would have to do something, even if it means they invade to try and prevent the DC from taking worlds by terra.
It could lead to another attempt to ally. Different outline of what is expected, as ally, not one state. That might be where that story line failed.
Another possibility is the developers want the LC to be the super power. So reducing the FS, then the DC, would make them more powerful, but then if the clans still control parts of the LC, then that wouldn't work well.
They could possibly want a resurgence in the clan lines, where the crusaders join up to make another power bloc and carve out a state for themselves in that area.
The wardens could decide to take terra and the old hemogany, and for the League under their terms. Take up the mantle of protectors, but starting with the birth world of humanity.
Without seeing the numbers, I would suspect the FS is probably the best in units, with Lyran being more heavier units, but less skilled. Much like the 3025 time frame.
Or it could give rise to the periphery rising up, taking worlds as the states are so weakened, they couldn't do anything about it.
The one thing blocking this. The warship issue. But even that can be gotten around.
|
|
|
Extra information
|
1 registered and 88 anonymous users are browsing this forum.
Moderator: Nic Jansma, Cray, Frabby, BobTheZombie
Print Topic
|
Forum Permissions
You cannot start new topics
You cannot reply to topics
HTML is enabled
UBBCode is enabled
|
Topic views: 6397
|
|
|
|
|
|
|