Alternate Universes

Pages: 1
Requiem
11/17/18 07:41 PM
58.175.193.140

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Question, for those who wish to reply I was wondering how many gaming groups run their own B’tech Universe rather than operating within the Canon Universe / or have units for both Canon and Home Universe?

I have always been a proponent of the home universe as I find many of the cannon histories holes quite perplexing as well as confining the majority of the game to the Inner Sphere that is unless you adopt a home Clan unit as one of your units or you adopt a universe that has military engagements within the Deep Periphery above the Clan’s original invasion corridor.

For me my home Universe has revolved around the ascendancy of the Federated Commonwealth until the Star League was formed and from there multiple wars have been fought within the frontier of space between the SLDF and the Clans with a war of independence and the establishment of a new frontier state.

And yes there have always been minor flare-ups along the borders of the Star League members in an attempt to gain more power.

In addition, by my timeline of 3150, all Successor States have begun an expansion outward into unknown – thus the periphery is no longer the outer boundary of the unknown.

So how do you run your game universe – Cannon or Home Rule and if Home Rule how does your universe change from that of the Cannon history?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
ghostrider
11/17/18 10:53 PM
66.74.61.223

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Every game not playing an adventure pack, or some other sort of canon scenario is a 'home universe' game.
A simple raid changes the entire scope of the canonverse, though most wouldn't see it that way.
Forces used and destroyed, as well as other resources, like fighters or dropships changes the game. Unit X was supposed to be used to protect world Y. Well your raid destroyed most of that unit, so they would not be there or able to do as the canon suggests.
Honestly, if you want to get even pickier, just having a merc unit formed changes it. Not being a canon one, means something changes in the game. Imagine the beginning of the Black Thorns. If someone had bought the Shadow Hawk, or kept the Raven in the CC, where would that have left that unit? Or the Marauder Grayson Carlyle used in the beginning of the Gray Death Legion?
What about it being destroyed in battle, instead of damaged?
Even just performing a raid, that diverts units from where they were supposed to be is enough.

The best you can do is move something around to cover it, to get it back on track. Like taking a world. Or defending it, where canon says it falls or is repulsed. Or never had any issues, meaning no units were diverted from the front lines.

Depending on when you actually start playing can change that. Using the old Star League mechs and weapons found in caches, like should have been done, changes it. Simple die rolls finding out how to make the equipment would change the entire time line.
The canon is supposed to be able to absorb little things like this, but in some ways, can't. A single shot on a dropship could very well destroy a command battalion of the Sword of Light, or Crusius Lancers. Maybe even the leader of a state. Same with battling them in mech combat. Decapitation tends to do that.
Requiem
11/18/18 06:20 AM
58.175.193.140

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
but what about the larger issues - deviating from complete Cannon story arcs - not entering into the Jihad, saying no to the Dark Age - do a compete re-write the Clan's invasion - keeping the 2nd Star League alive ......

minor battles are easy to re-write it is the larger issues that really need to be fixed.
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Karagin
11/18/18 10:22 PM
72.176.187.91

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
The Empire In Flames setting is pretty cool, I like it better then official universe. Also every player group who plays has an alternate universe since what happens in the battles you fight are not what happens in the official universe. Same when you play out the old scenario books, seen a lot of the battles from many of those end with far different outcomes then what "officially" happened.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
ghostrider
11/18/18 11:10 PM
66.74.61.223

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Killing the coordinator in a battle is not a minor battle. Destroying or delaying the Kell Hounds rescue forces when Prince Ian died on Harrow's Sun, is not a minor battle. That would have the body in combine hands. Huge moral issues on both sides, with the DC riding high, while the FS coming out on the bottom.
Taking out a single world that is used for the staging for say the 4th war. Does that change things? Now that you have to use another world, which may be far worse, and could not handle the invasion forces stationed there?
A single warship during the 3025 era would destroy the timeline, with a fix being difficult to do.
How about the clan invasion? Say the wardens won. Now what?
The one game we were in, had the players actually take control over a world they were mercs for, as the government was destroyed, leaving the only power that could do anything being in our hands. So that changed alot of things. Just one die roll did it. Head shot killing the noble in his mech.
We ended up raiding a few planets, and got supplies as well as new units from doing so, which also hurt a few units that were used in the 4th war.
Hurt the CC and FWL by destroying a company here, or taking out their repair base there.

But I have seen something similar to what Karagin said. An adventure pack mission goes horribly wrong. Ammo explosion, head cap, even just a good night for the side that was supposed to lose. That changes history there. Sorenson's Sabres is one where you play a company of one of the sword of light. Hell, even playing the Black Widow company or battalion would change the future, if you killed Natasha. No way to really fix that one. She is needed in the future.
So do you replay it, so those events don't happen?
Nullify it?
Come up with another person to take their place, yet couldn't do the things needed to, in order to keep canon going?
Phelan Ward dying when his Wolfhound gets taken down is another one. Victor being killed in the civil war.
Now purposefully going to change history?
Once you do one thing, you need to come up with an entirely new direction for your game. If you don't want to do so, then you best need to figure out a way to fix it.
Karagin
11/18/18 11:18 PM
72.176.187.91

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Thing is if you are trying to play canon, you won't be able to do anything because you are not the POWERS THAT BE (said in the 60/70s super weird Space Ghost narrator voice).

If you play the scenario packs the out come will be different each time it's played because real people won't make the same mistake or perfect moves the characters in the novels made. Each will play the event out how they see it and thus yes you could endup killing the Coordinator on Luithen as the Clan player, thus changing the entire course of that battle. Or you could be trying to stop the Hounds from completing an action during the 4th Succession War and end up with them being beaten very bad or stopped from doing what it is they had to do, which again changes the rest of the events.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Requiem
11/19/18 06:20 PM
58.175.193.140

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Do you need to bring major characters / units into your home game?

If they are within the game you can keep them as supportive characters that are within the background narrative.

Though the main point still remains would any group decide to make major changes to the story arcs

As an example for me allowing all 2750 / Succession Wars Technical Readout Mechs are available - the destruction of the CC during the 3039/40 war - A FWL civil war as Thomas was killed not saved and replaced with Halas - A major re-writing of the Clan Invasion, to which all the Clans (except those who join the new Star League) are ejected from the Inner Sphere - (operation Serpent never occurred) -Thus wars with the Clans now occur in the Deep Periphery as the FC, DC and FRR begin a second exodus / land grab within the Deep Periphery - Second Clan Invasion War begins (WOB forces on the side of the Star League, thus their Mechs etc are available for purchase)

This is the extent I am considering changes should be made to the Story Arcs for your home game.

Thus the Jihad never occurred and Stones Republic was never formed - The DC war with the Nova Cats / Ghost Bears can be an optional event.

Thus the DC invasion of the FS did not occur ....
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Karagin
11/19/18 07:01 PM
72.176.187.91

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
All that is possible in any player group, the question becomes how many actually play as Kurtia or Davion? Or Bears vs the Lyrans? Many battles are pick up games, where each side is there to play. The outcome for fun, not universe changing.

Some folks do bring major characters in to their game. My group ran the Twycross scenario pack, we had this really cool time of it, biggest change was the Clan players used the setup to win, they ran across the end of the map as best they could to get around the Fed-Com players. The amount of WTFH comments and griping was priceless, the Clan players changed the outcome and the Clan force got through the pass thus changing how the battle there for the planet would turn out. Reset, try two, this time the battle is a slug fest and Allard is killed and thus another change.

So no matter what you setup, there will be changes the second it leaves your hands and thus different out comes.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Karagin
11/19/18 07:03 PM
72.176.187.91

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
The issue with Alternative Universes for Battletech is that they are not something anyone will jump to ask the Powers that Be to fully support, sure we have Empire In Flames, but even that has a set story line, though it differs from the normal game but not by much.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
Requiem
11/19/18 10:14 PM
58.175.193.140

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Alternate Universes are not for "powers that be", they are for each gamer's home group.

Why be bound by the Cannon History!
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Karagin
11/19/18 11:45 PM
72.176.187.91

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
You are missing the point, yes they are for the players' group and that is important, however the game is pretty cemented in HOW things come about for products. If we remove Davion from the playing, saying that Kurtia and Capellans took them out in the 1st Succession War, normally Battletech has away to balance things with a new power appearing or something else happening, yet player groups aren't controlled like that. So what happen then if the Davions are gone?

And say you are playing in the above group, and you more to a new one, now you need to leave all of that behind and move the universe they are playing in. Now do you see where I am going with this?
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
ghostrider
11/20/18 01:23 AM
66.74.61.223

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
As not all agree with the canon, which is there for the basis of all games to have some resemblance to each other, most will not deal with an alt outside of their group.

And if you think about it, even the officially sponsored tournaments aren't canon.
Or at least I have not seen one outcome being published as a canon history for a battle.
So even the official run games are outside of canon.
But in order for a group to come into a game working for side X, there needs to be the side X. You can not target Twycross for instance as a clan unit, if the clan you are with owns it. Well other then a trial of grievance or trying to kill someone in your clan.
A lot of the battles that are 'playable' have the main characters in them. The entire Black Widow history is a prime example. During any one of those, you could head cap Natasha's mech. That destroyed the canonverse.
You don't have to have a one on one duel with Takashi Kurita, or Katrina Steiner in the 3025 era.
Playing the Silver Eagle scenario could very well have destroyed the FC by having Melissa get captured by Kurita. This isn't something players made up. It is something the developers made, so you can be the hero.

And a scenario for Davion. What happens if Michael Hasek-Davion succeeded in taking over the FS? Or Fredrick killed Katrina? Even one of the warlords in the DC had Takashi assassinated? Doesn't have to be the players doing anything. If you stuck with the random rolls for evens in the first mech warrior RPG, this could well be a result.

Having a common base is why canon is needed. Otherwise, go back and restart from the time before Kerensky left.
Without the common base, you could not jump from one group to another and have fun.
Requiem
11/20/18 02:36 AM
58.175.193.140

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Karagin, sorry no I do not see where you are going, like D&D moving from one group to another is not a big deal there are ways to move a unit / character from one to the next.

I have made significant changes to my home universe than the cannon universe – killing of the CC, Killing off Thomas Marik, Changing the Clan Invasion so that all the Clans are kicked out not just the Jaguars, no Jihad, no Republic, no dark age – you just keep moving forward making up the storyline as you progress.

Yes the new supplements can be considered and they can be morphed to fit you home game – change of world, change of units, change of weapons etc. and all fixed ready to go.

Ghostrider, in my game world there wasn’t a Twycross – but that does not mean I might not use it in the future for a war upon one world SLDF Vs. 2nd Clan Invasion of the Inner Sphere (fighting in the Deep Periphery).

You do not need to keep to the Cannon Script.

As for the main characters – you can replace them with substitutes or do the “X-Men shuffle” yes they appeared to die only to reappear alive with a convoluted back story.

So yes anything could be a result of a random roll – this is why I prefer the Alternate to the Cannon – I did kill of Thomas Marik and his double so why not consider killing off a couple more leaders and changing the destiny of the realm from great to not so great or even worse.

A common base is not required – what is required is the fun / surprise from the game – can you imagine D&D with a single common history, yes it does have it but it is also optional for the game players.

This is what Battletech needs a little random chaos so that each house can manipulate the history if they so desire to make the game a little more interesting and predictability does not equate to a great game in my opinion.

If you want to jump from one group to the next you just need multiple units / characters or a variant character for each universe, how hard is that?
Get thee to Coventry … Now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious by this daughter of Tharkad … Our army shall march through. Well to New Avalon tonight.
Karagin
11/20/18 10:30 AM
72.176.187.91

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
Quote:
Karagin, sorry no I do not see where you are going, like D&D moving from one group to another is not a big deal there are ways to move a unit / character from one to the next.




Most groups will not let you just drop your unit or character into their setting without first know about it and figuring out what level etc...it's at and many groups require or ask you to make a new one.

Quote:

I have made significant changes to my home universe than the cannon universe – killing of the CC, Killing off Thomas Marik, Changing the Clan Invasion so that all the Clans are kicked out not just the Jaguars, no Jihad, no Republic, no dark age – you just keep moving forward making up the storyline as you progress.




We all have done similar every time we play, we change something. If we have a big battle and the Lyrans lose say on Vega since that is where you or I set the battle, does this change how the main story goes? For the group it does. Then the next time the unit fights it's got to make up for the lose etc... Now if the players are running a house unit, that means things did change, Fredrick Steiner could be dead, like really dead, since the unit didn't make it to push Theo's troops back and the wounds he took were fatal etc...so no Focht ever comes to be in the employment of ComStar, so no ComGuard as we know it.

Quote:

Yes the new supplements can be considered and they can be morphed to fit you home game – change of world, change of units, change of weapons etc. and all fixed ready to go.




Yes a lot of things would still happen or should, tech, new mechs etc...will happen.

Quote:

A common base is not required – what is required is the fun / surprise from the game – can you imagine D&D with a single common history, yes it does have it but it is also optional for the game players.

This is what Battletech needs a little random chaos so that each house can manipulate the history if they so desire to make the game a little more interesting and predictability does not equate to a great game in my opinion.

If you want to jump from one group to the next you just need multiple units / characters or a variant character for each universe, how hard is that?



A common base would be required, no way I am letting a new player to the group put their personal character in to our set of events. As I said above lots of things need to be looked at. You have a character that is say a level 12 what ever and the group you are joining is running at level 7 there will be issues.

Also many groups don't want to play other groups ideas or games, they want their own stuff.

My group as three "settings" we play with, first is we have our version of the Inner Sphere, were it's all the same expect each of us has our own units and we have done amazing things or not and the current time is what ever we want it to be without all the extra silliness. In other words all the quirks and "cool" factors are thrown out and we have our battles and enjoy the fun of the game.

The second setting is our first bigger one, the Jihad did not happen as shown in canon, the WoB is not the super power they are shown, they didn't get all their snapshots off in perfect order, Outreach was not nuked to the stone age, along with other changes we have a what we feel is a better story line and plot and doesn't have that Mary Sue and Superman feel to it, more of our trying to keep things on a realistic setting and less handwavium to how the WoB did things. We use canon, but we adjust it. Also this were we argue the merits of things and how we see them and it gives us an interesting setting.

Then the third one is about my personal group the Karagin, it uses BT mechanics, i.e. mechs, tanks, warships, power armor etc...but we have other things added like grav tanks and more use of warships, protomechs are there but they are used in a manner that is not the same as the canon and then we have more sub groups we have set up for use. Hell we even have a planet made up of crystals that reflect PPC hits. That wasn't fun.

The big point I am driving at it that we all have our version of Alternate Universe for the game, and what we lack is a common ground for them beyond they are based somewhere off of canon, because we each picked a different point to more to the right or left of what actually, that is called a point of departure (POD) and for each of those, there are even more.
Karagin

Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
csadn
11/21/18 01:23 AM
174.85.61.64

Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply
For me, the problem has always been "the publishing house's slow rate of production", and "the publishing house's insistence on making sure there's always New Product to put out". I think y'all can guess our annoyance at being able to destroy the Clan Invasion by 3052 *without* major assistance from ComStar, only to be told "nope, sorry, didn't happen that way". (And when one considers what the Jihad/Dark-Age storyline is a metaphor for -- hint: substitute for "mercenary" the phrase "people who don't play strictly to the Published History"....) It becomes even more annoying when one looks at the "past history" sourcebooks, and realizes: The publisher could as-easily have cranked out s-bs for the game's "history" up to 3025, while saying: "OK -- here's what happened up to the 'start' of the game; everything after that, we leave to you, the players".
CF

Oregon: The "Outworlds Alliance" of the United States of America
Pages: 1
Extra information
1 registered and 74 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  Nic Jansma, Cray, Frabby, BobTheZombie 

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is enabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Topic views: 4611


Contact Admins Sarna.net