tmr01750195
11/28/18 02:26 AM
76.121.197.44
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Hello again,
The CGL TM Gladiator (Executioner) Base and Prime models do not show the calculations for cost and BV so I used HM Pro to print TROs. After some tinkering I was able to match BV on both. Cost I am off by 1 C-Bill which I'll count as a success.
The details for the Base model on CGL TM p. 58 left and right arms does not appear to match the HM Pro Base model Actuator entry on the TRO.
CGL TM p. 58 first paragraph:
"... With its base chassis equipment already assigned, the Gladiator leaves 7 slots open per arm (though 2 of the “occupied” slots per arm are actually lower arm and hand actuators that can be removed for later configurations), ..."
I believe that the Base Model Actuators entry is L: Sh+UA+LA+Hand and R: Sh+UA+LA+Hand, unfortunately the HM Pro TRO has the entry of Actuators: L: Sh+UA and R: Sh+UA
Am I reading the CGL TM text incorrectly?
Tom Rux
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ghostrider
11/28/18 11:59 AM
66.74.61.223
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Are the critical counts right?
Say HM Pro had 9 while the CGL base model has 7?
It may be HM is automatically removing the LA and H actuators which may be causing the difference in stats.
Most forget any ppc, and I want to say just the gauss canon can not have hand actuators in omnis. It may well extend into the autocanons, but don't have my book with me to verify this.
One other possibility that comes to mind, is they have the Warhawk's data mixed in with the gladiators. Little things like that sometimes makes it thru coding and checks.
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Cray
11/28/18 05:34 PM
97.101.136.19
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Quote:
I believe that the Base Model Actuators entry is L: Sh+UA+LA+Hand and R: Sh+UA+LA+Hand, unfortunately the HM Pro TRO has the entry of Actuators: L: Sh+UA and R: Sh+UA
Am I reading the CGL TM text incorrectly?
This might be an error on HM Pro's part, though understandable. There was a habit of Clan omnimechs to remove hand and lower arm actuators by default and add them back in when needed, so it'd be understandable for HM Pro to show the actuators absent when the Gladiator was added to HM Pro's database.
However, TR:3050 (pub. 1990), TR:3050-Revised (pub. 1996), and TR:3050-Upgrades all show the Gladiator artwork with a right hand and low arm actuator, but none on the left. The associated Record Sheet publications show the same thing in hard stats: all 4 right arm actuators, but just shoulder and upper on the left. Tech Manual was following published record sheets when it showed more arm actuators than HM Pro.
Mike Miller, Materials Engineer
Disclaimer: Anything stated in this post is unofficial and non-canon unless directly quoted from a published book. Random internet musings of a BattleTech writer are not canon.
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tmr01750195
11/28/18 05:50 PM
76.121.197.44
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Late afternoon from WA Cray,
Quote:
Quote:
I believe that the Base Model Actuators entry is L: Sh+UA+LA+Hand and R: Sh+UA+LA+Hand, unfortunately the HM Pro TRO has the entry of Actuators: L: Sh+UA and R: Sh+UA
Am I reading the CGL TM text incorrectly?
This might be an error on HM Pro's part, though understandable. There was a habit of Clan omnimechs to remove hand and lower arm actuators by default and add them back in when needed, so it'd be understandable for HM Pro to show the actuators absent when the Gladiator was added to HM Pro's database.
However, TR:3050 (pub. 1990), TR:3050-Revised (pub. 1996), and TR:3050-Upgrades all show the Gladiator artwork with a right hand and low arm actuator, but none on the left. The associated Record Sheet publications show the same thing in hard stats: all 4 right arm actuators, but just shoulder and upper on the left. Tech Manual was following published record sheets when it showed more arm actuators than HM Pro.
Thank you for the feedback and the probable reason that the HM Pro shows the Clan OmniMech base model with only the shoulder and upper arm actuators.
Tom Rux
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tmr01750195
11/28/18 06:25 PM
76.121.197.44
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Hello ghostrider,
Quote:
Are the critical counts right?
Say HM Pro had 9 while the CGL base model has 7?
It may be HM is automatically removing the LA and H actuators which may be causing the difference in stats.
Most forget any ppc, and I want to say just the gauss canon can not have hand actuators in omnis. It may well extend into the autocanons, but don't have my book with me to verify this.
One other possibility that comes to mind, is they have the Warhawk's data mixed in with the gladiators. Little things like that sometimes makes it thru coding and checks.
My apologies for missing your reply and getting to Cray's first.
On CGL TM p. 58 the text indicates that the base model before adding the weapons both arms each have 7 open critical slots. The HM Pro Record Sheet has 9 open critical slots.
Between you and Cray the answer appears to be that HM has automatically removed the hand and lower arm actuators on the base model of Gladiator (Executioner) OmniMech.
I am not familiar with the concept that OmniMechs can not have hand actuators when mounting any PPC. Of course about the time the Clan Invasion and the new tech came out I was heading for the Mediterranean which means I missed out on the developments. Then when I came back in 1995 I was playing catch up with the games I had in my collection and finding new games.
Can you please, when you have the books handy, provide me with the page number or numbers about not having hand actuators.
My impression from FASA, FanPro, and CGL is that the option to remove the lower arm and/or hand actuators is usually done to fit the weapon and/or equipment into the arm.
Thank you for the reply,
Tom Rux
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Karagin
11/28/18 10:34 PM
72.176.187.91
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Quote:
Quote:
I believe that the Base Model Actuators entry is L: Sh+UA+LA+Hand and R: Sh+UA+LA+Hand, unfortunately the HM Pro TRO has the entry of Actuators: L: Sh+UA and R: Sh+UA
Am I reading the CGL TM text incorrectly?
This might be an error on HM Pro's part, though understandable. There was a habit of Clan omnimechs to remove hand and lower arm actuators by default and add them back in when needed, so it'd be understandable for HM Pro to show the actuators absent when the Gladiator was added to HM Pro's database.
However, TR:3050 (pub. 1990), TR:3050-Revised (pub. 1996), and TR:3050-Upgrades all show the Gladiator artwork with a right hand and low arm actuator, but none on the left. The associated Record Sheet publications show the same thing in hard stats: all 4 right arm actuators, but just shoulder and upper on the left. Tech Manual was following published record sheets when it showed more arm actuators than HM Pro.
Hold the press, the rules state that Clan Omnis don't allow for weapons, mainly direct fire weapons, to be mounted in the arms of Omni's with the lower and hand actuators, so how can the program be wrong if it's following the rules?
Karagin
Given time and plenty of paper, a philosopher can prove anything.
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ghostrider
11/29/18 12:43 AM
66.74.61.223
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While they can be considered structural components, the lower-arm and hand actuators are themselves Pod-mounted and easily removed to provide additional Pod Space in the arms. However, the mounting points for them in the arms are also utilized by larger bore weaponry such as Gauss Rifles, Autocannons, and PPCs, so the lower-arm and hand must be removed to carry these weapon types on OmniMech arms, hampering the close-combat abilities of these configurations.[8]
This is on the wiki here under omni-disadvantages.
Been a while and with the newer rule books that I don't own, that may have been changed.
And it may not be HM that is the one at fault. CGL may have forgotten this issue.
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tmr01750195
11/29/18 02:06 AM
76.121.197.44
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Hello Karagin and ghostrider,
Thank you both for the replies and for referencing the rules why lower arm and hand actuators are removed from an OmniMech. I finally found the source which is on CGL TM p. 57
"OmniMechs: Though it is unusual, weapons and equipment may be established as fixed components of an OmniMech’s base configuration just like heat sinks and jump jets. In such cases, these “fixed” items must be mounted and placed on the Critical Hits Table before completion of the base configuration, and though the location of such slots may not be changed they may be shifted as the designer wishes within their established location according to the contiguity of the system in the completed primary or alternate configurations.
On biped OmniMechs, the lower arm and hand actuators are always considered to be pod-mounted, and may be removed to provide additional slots for weapons and other equipment. If the configuration desired mounts any kind or size of Gauss rifle, autocannon or PPC in a given arm, however, the lower arm and hand actuators in that arm must be removed first. "
HM Pro's Base model Gladiator (Executioner) OmniMech is built without both sets of lower arm and hand actuators.
CGL TM's p. 58 the Base model Gladiator (Executioner) OmniMech example has seven open slots per arm. Installation of the Gauss rifle for the Prime model necessitates the removal of the base models lower arm and hand actuators. From this information the CGL TM Base model Gladiator (Executioner) OmniMech appears to have lower arm and hand actuators in each arm that are removed in the arm or arms that mount any kind or size of Gauss rifle, autocannon or PPC.
From the information I think CGL did not forget the issue but chose to have the base model equipped with a full set of actuators in the arms versus HMPro modeling the base model without either arm having lower arm and hand actuators.
Thank you again for the help.
Tom Rux
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